Nerf list after patch

Now post-patch we can be a bit more extensive with this list of high-priority nerfs/hotfixes for PvP.

General

• Remove Energy Sigil from sPvP (~+50% endurance, boosts certain traits too much, boost the whole Mirage spec.)(read comments below)
• Earth Rune (protection duration)
• Grove Rune (protection duration)
• Sunless Rune (bug: undodgeable fear on 6th bonus)
• Radiance Rune (375 concentration)
• Leadership Rune (375 concentration)

Mesmer

• Evasive Mirror
• Mirage Cloak in hard CC/immobilize
• Confusing Images (scepter 3) power damage and fix animation from stealth
• Blurred Inscriptions
• Desperate Decoy

Thief

• Silent Scope (stealth on dodge)
• Dagger Storm
• Instant Reflexes

Ranger

• Excessive Protection availability (see Earth rune, Fresh Reinforcement, Consume Plasma)
• Consume Plasma/Siamoth pickups
• Fresh Reinforcement
• Unstoppable Union
• Ricochet (axe1) stacking 25 might untraited
• Natural Vigor (currently stacks with vigor)

Engineer

• Holo Leap swiftness and/or cooldown (easy access to permanent vigor on Holo through Invigorating Speed).
• Elexir U
• Holographic Shockwave range
• Sneak Gyro (as predicted, big whoop)

Revenant

• Sword off-hand burst damage

Warrior

• Rousing Resiliance
• Defy Pain
• Full Counter triggering on summons (pets, illusions, etc)?

Necromancer

Guardian

Elementalist

Removed from list (read comments below)

• Rampage
• Vent Exhaust (nerfing Energy sigil + Vigor uptime will also nerf this trait)
• Retaliation damage/durations
• Regeneration base heal/durations
• Sympathetic Visage
• Binding Shadow (Silent Scope instead)

  ---

  Comment/correct me. (Disclaimer: Mesmer main).

These seem pretty spot on, nicely done

On the one hand I love earth runes and is one of the few options eles have to get some much needed toughness outside of amulets, but I can see how it creates more issues than what it solves.

I would like to see in general:

More scaling on stuff that heals but lower healing base value (like for example holos's exhaust , soulbeast's healing from having protection and the passive healings of warrior) . I think the way eles were done is nice; low base healing, high scaling, if you want sustain, you need to invest on it. I think the problem with ele is in part due to this issue, eles are probably the one class who has little sustain because their base values are really low so going damage is risky move, and all because many of our skills are AoE, so either we are pidgeon holed on healers (or in this case, troll stall noodle builds like weaver) or gimmicky builds like FA (whose upfronted damage needs to be redistributed to less upfronted and reliably streamlined more overtime, once they are given the tools to live longer than 4 seconds).

Teleports that ignore LoS and/or verticality and move you longer than their 1200 units if we were to walk said distance , specially in certain maps like Temple, Kyhlo and Coliseum in the mid point/relics.

Less condi convertion/stealing, but shorter lived and in some cases more potent boons . Boons should be highly impactful, like rej should be shorter lived but more scaling, might should last shorter times but must be just a tinsy bit stronger and harder to achieve 25 stacks, maybe even reduce max amount to 12-15 but have the total amount be equal to the old 25 stack. That one seems harder to do since many, many more skills would need tweaking. But I think protection is already a good representation on how short and impactful they should be (with of course ranger being an outlier that needs to be looked at in that regard)

Blind should be revisited on some classes. For example mesmers have a huge upkeep on blind, and thieves have decent although borderline annoying amounts. Meanwhile, a grandmaster trait on elementalists have a a blind on burn that on AoE burn does no apply AoE blind, but rather one target, and the ICD is 8 seconds, which is brutal considering that if you cast the AoE burn shout and it first hit a ranger pet or necro minion or mesmer million clones (which will usually be between you and the target of interest) then the blind is eaten by those.

In fact, I think blind and retaliation could see a change since they are inversely related to each other; blind is useless vs classes with multihit skills, and retaliation is extremely strong vs those skills, and the opposite is true for blind being really strong vs 1 hit skills but retaliation not being as strong in those cases. Blind could be very short lived (.75 sec to 1.5 secs) and be active through it all, and retaliation should reflect a VERY small flat amount + a % of the skill hitting AFTER defense is taken in consideration. I can see it changing balance quite a bit, but it would help "homogenize" some of these defensive boons to be more reliably easier to balance on the long run and be impactful in every situation.

@Fortus.6175 said:Text.

Yes, but these are more long-term and complicated, this thread is more for stuff that should preferably be nerfed/fixed before next patch.

well thought

Was expecting earth rune nerf, shocked such a op rune still exists (yes I use it)

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"Fortus.6175" said:Text.

Ah, well this is my 2c:

Speedy Conduit instead of granting Swiftness it should grant Super speed when overloading. Or alternative, it should grant a small barrier based on the amount of enemies or allies being hit by the overloads

A further improvement that could help tempest, which they already said that even with those buffs they still think ele could use more. Tempest currently have a passive trait that is underwhelming, I have made a long post that highlights the reasons why thematically within the same expansion, as well as in terms on powerlevel the trait does not match the pattern of giving a unique/flavorful buff to the elite mechanic. Said skill is an opportunity to non-obtrusively introduce a buff ( https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/67121/speedy-conduit-tempest-trait-underwhelming-effect ):

Speedy conduit which gives 8 seconds of swiftness on overload could either be replaced by one that gives 4 seconds of superspeed (the duration of the overload channel), or given 1 stack of stability. All other classes in the same expansion, and even all other classes in the other expansions, including eles themselves with weaver, got a a trait that gave either a unique, uncorruptable/unstealable buff that isnt so common, specially in a class with plenty of access to swiftness already. It would go a long way to help with survavility and add a unique aspect to the class mechanic. Im more partial to super speed over the stability since there is already another trait that gives stability, which would need to be changed to do something else. As for the barrier, offensive overloads would give barrier which are not heals (good for preventing eternal sustaining) and allow the offensive overloads to stand in the middle of fire, and rewards defensive overloads for healing allies in the thick of battle rather than oneself while solo troll stalling in a far point.

edit: once again i misread, it is about nerfs, not buffs, well, at least thats my buff

Engineer really need the stab from Elixir U removed instead of the stab on corona nerf. On demand quickness with stab so they can safely chain more stab from corona and suddenly burst you down with no clear animation thay they've used the skill is stupid.

Decreased upkeep time of protection for soulbeasts.

Protection is pretty strong as it is, it gives effective health, which makes healing stronger. Protection on rangers also gives 33% condi damage reduction, further increasing effective health. Rangers have a trait that makes them regenerate endurance 25% faster, and on dodge they and the pet both gain protection, and when you gain protection you also heal a flat amount every second, and with moa stance, plasma, we heal as one and merging with pet this protecting last even longer. Then coupled with Rune of Earth that increases protection duration by 30%, gives 175 toughness, and increases 10% of incoming healing (which affects rejuvenation and the healing from the protection trait) as well as the trait line that gives 120 vitality, 120 toughness, 120 power and 120 precision when merging, plus paladin amulet (power/prec/tough/vit), having medium armor and medium health pool (23k hp and 2.4k toughness total, X 33% direct damage and condi damage decrease) , they are healing an obnoxious amount while receiving very little damage and having a large effective health pool. All of this without equipping a single point of healing stats, and it is not like they cant disengage using dagger or eagle pet if things start getting bad.

@LazySummer.2568 said:Engineer really need the stab from Elixir U removed instead of the stab on corona nerf. On demand quickness with stab so they can safely chain more stab from corona and suddenly burst you down with no clear animation thay they've used the skill is stupid.

Only reason I didn't include it is because gadget holo doesn't use it, but you are right actually, I will add it.

@Fortus.6175 said:Text.

Agree. Ranger prot. is already on the list.

@Quadox.7834 said:

What's wrong with Vent Exhaust?

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Quadox.7834" said:

I think he may have meant https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heat_Therapy , I know many people get it confused often. Anyways, if thats what he meant, then I agree, like adrenal healing, passive healing should be looked at and being closer to ele's soothing mist, which has a very low base value, but larger scaling, to prevent people the amount of sustain they can attain (specially paired with water blasting in the case on holos, or constant iframes/blocks/damage mit in the case on warrior, or the protection stuff from soulbeasts)

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

Maybe not a must-nerf but far better than the other GMs and a must-have for any PvP Holo build. Alternative is to buff the other GMs but not sure anyone wants a buff to Holo. That was my reasoning. Although maybe not necessary after nerfing energy sigil + vigor access.

@Fortus.6175 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@"Quadox.7834" said:

You can read my reasoning above, but you might be right that this is a more appropriate "angle of attack". More engi mains that can weigh in on this?

@Fortus.6175 said:Decreased upkeep time of protection for soulbeasts.

Protection is pretty strong as it is, it gives effective health, which makes healing stronger. Protection on rangers also gives 33% condi damage reduction, further increasing effective health. Rangers have a trait that makes them regenerate endurance 25% faster, and on dodge they and the pet both gain protection, and when you gain protection you also heal a flat amount every second, and with moa stance, plasma, we heal as one and merging with pet this protecting last even longer. Then coupled with Rune of Earth that increases protection duration by 30%, gives 175 toughness, and increases 10% of incoming healing (which affects rejuvenation and the healing from the protection trait) as well as the trait line that gives 120 vitality, 120 toughness, 120 power and 120 precision when merging, plus paladin amulet (power/prec/tough/vit), having medium armor and medium health pool (23k hp and 2.4k toughness total, X 33% direct damage and condi damage decrease) , they are healing an obnoxious amount while receiving very little damage and having a large effective health pool. All of this without equipping a single point of healing stats, and it is not like they cant disengage using dagger or eagle pet if things start getting bad.

Yep this. Never mind about specific meta or anti-meta builds for a moment- there are 3 classes that have zero options for dealing with boon-loaded foes. For these classes, it is near impossible for them to have favorable 1v1 matchups against foes that can maintain perma-protection unless that player gets severely outplayed. I don't think adding boon-rip/corrupt to everyone is the solution, but rather, certain boons should not be able to be permanently maintained by a single player no matter what build is taken. Protection is one of those boons.

So why is Energy an issue?

Why is Sunless an issue?

Why is Regen an issue?

W a t?

Do p3/p2/p1 players REALLY complain about this? Like, I feel like I am in two different worlds when I go to Reddit and these threads LMFAO

Lots of good ideas!

@"Quadox.7834" said:(...)

• Chronophantasma interaction with Sympathetic Visage

(...)

Just a side note here: I think this is already implemented, if you meant they'd take conditions on the resummon. I think they don't. Tested it once and the wiki-article suggests this too (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sympathetic_Visage: "...when they are first summoned.").

Maybe delete reta all together so much I enjoy people die by hitting me so much I can see it’s a brainless mechanic

I would make the list even more concise, many of these things aren't urgent. I have some questions, and notes.

@Quadox.7834 said:

• Reduce retaliation damage (or reduce durations)

Community voted against this so I wouldn't put this in the next patch. Seems like personal bias to me.Can stay on the table though. Just not for this patch.

• Leadership Rune boon duration (equivalent of 375 concentration).

Why though? I've never heard anyone complain about Leadership runes. Except when in comparison to Lyssa runes.

• Mirage Cloak in hard CC/immobilize

Immob doesn't belong here, it's exactly what MC is good for. Hard CC dodging needs to go though.

• Chronophantasma interaction with Sympathetic Visage

If you reduce the burst and block frequency from Scepter, Chrono already gets balanced. This is an un-necessary overnerf. Leaving it as it is while nerfing Sc keeps Chrono as a sturdy duelist but without damage to win those fights.

• Ricochet (axe1) might stacking

This is the wrong thing to target. It would be a bigger nerf to Core Ranger than Boonbeast.Fresh Reinforcement is the offending trait and should be axed.(hehe)

• Invigorating speed (or remove swiftness from holo leap)

I think this is approaching issues with holo from the wrong angle. Again this would be more a Core nerf.If Photon Forge is over-performing, that's the thing you nerf. I'd approach it by reducing damage from the skills that are clearly meant more for utility than damage, namely Forge 2 and 5. They are already nerfing the utility of Forge 3 so they are taking the opposite approach on that.

• Vent exhaust (or thermal release valve)

What's the suggestion exactly?

Things I liked and think are within an achievable scope with the time that's left:

• Earth Rune
• Edit: Sunless Rune (undodgeable fear on 6th bonus)

I'd rather they nerf these rather than remove them.

• Confusing Images (scepter 3) power damage

Should definitely be a top priority.

• Blurred Inscriptions

I'd look into having an ICD for the Distortion of this trait.

• Consume Plasma/Siamoth pickups

Plasma needs to go from this skill. Permanently.

• Excessive protection availability

This would mostly be taken care of by axing Fresh Reinforcement and removing Plasma but if not enough, then needs to be looked at.

• Edit: Natural Vigor (currently stacks with vigor)

This seems like a bug. Fix required.

• Sneak Gyro (depends on duration and implementation but a long-duration moving smoke field + team stealth from an untargetable gyro sounds broken).

Does seem pretty broken.

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:So why is Energy an issue?

Why is Sunless an issue?

Why is Regen an issue?

W a t?

Do p3/p2/p1 players REALLY complain about this? Like, I feel like I am in two different worlds when I go to Reddit and these threads LMFAO

Reddit is mostly PvErs (nothing wrong with that). Good questions, I will add a short explanation to the OP.

Energy sigil is by far the strongest sigil (especially since they removed the other strong ones like air/fire/hydro), if you have it on both weapon sets you get +50% more dodges. Almost every meta build uses at least one. It also has a couple of problems:

• interacts with and boosts certain traits in a way other sigils don't: Reckless Dodge, Selfless Daring, Companion's Defense, Deceptive Evasion, (+ the entire Mirage specialization). These are used very often in meta specs and energy sigils take them to unintended levels; of course you could balance these effects after energy sigil but it would be much easier to just remove it from PvP, as has already been done with most of the other strong sigils.
• Players who want to make sure to land their burst can "count dodges" - keep track of the opponent's endurance. This tactic is invalidated by the Energy sigil.

Sunless rune I already explained, the fear on the 6th bonus is undodgeable, which means that you can interrupt your opponent mid-dodge (bug).

The problem with Regeneration is that it heals too much without any healing power and certain specs have abundant access to it (ele, guard, mes, thief, engi, ranger). An alternative to reducing base regen rate (simple solution) is to nerf the access to regen that some of these specs have. As with protection, near-permanent/permanent regeneration shouldn't be so easy to get.

Until z-axis teleport is nerfed and some compensation happens here and there, Rampage can't be nerfed. That's just being unreasonable.

@BlackTruth.6813 said:Until z-axis teleport is nerfed and some compensation happens here and there, Rampage can't be nerfed. That's just being unreasonable.

Comapared to how strong elites generally are in this game (with a few outliers), rampage is very strong. Gw2 is a game with weak elites unlike for example overwatch. For many/most builds, having a 4th utility would be stronger than having an elite in this game.

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"BlackTruth.6813" said:Until z-axis teleport is nerfed and some compensation happens here and there, Rampage can't be nerfed. That's just being unreasonable.

And it takes a 30 second cd (blink, invuln, blind, stealth, etc) to counter a 72 second elite. Rampage is NECESSARY, it has to be strong as is. Even tho everything else is getting nerfed. It gives core warrior a chance, it gives spell breaker even berserker a chance.

You're taking away the only Niche Warrior can fill: a DPS that can somewhat hold a point

I don't mind rampage getting nerfed, but nerf braindead ledge teleports first because THAT in itself is not really balanced, even tho it "creates" an identity.

Thanks for the input!

@Yannir.4132 said:I would make the list even more concise, many of these things aren't urgent. I have some questions, and notes.

@"Quadox.7834" said:

• Reduce retaliation damage (or reduce durations)

• Leadership Rune boon duration (equivalent of 375 concentration).

• Mirage Cloak in hard CC/immobilize

• Chronophantasma interaction with Sympathetic Visage

1. Inspiration Mesmer has an extreme amount of condition removal than no condition build except for
   maybe
   mirage/scourge can get through, no other class can ever play condi builds. 2. The trait gets
   twice
   as strong when used with Chronophantasma which means that it must be balanced around it and will be useless without it.

• Ricochet (axe1) might stacking

• Invigorating speed (or remove swiftness from holo leap)

• Vent exhaust (or thermal release valve)

• Earth Rune
• Edit: Sunless Rune (undodgeable fear on 6th bonus)

• Confusing Images (scepter 3) power damage

• Blurred Inscriptions

• Consume Plasma/Siamoth pickups

• Excessive protection availability

• Edit: Natural Vigor (currently stacks with vigor)

• Sneak Gyro (depends on duration and implementation but a long-duration moving smoke field + team stealth from an untargetable gyro sounds broken).