Changes to improve mesmer (Buffs, Nerfs, QoL) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Changes to improve mesmer (Buffs, Nerfs, QoL)

Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited April 11, 2019 in Mesmer

Here are some things that could use a buff and the right things to nerf - according to the mesmer community.
This is pvp/wvw oriented.

Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

BUFFS:

Chronomancer

Illusionary Reversion: this one was downright smiter's booned at 16/03/2017 and even become worse at the next nerf, could use a revert.

Wells: all of them except gravity and heal are useless, could use some rework or tweek, bigger radius or pulse the benefits or affect 10 people in wvw or something else.
Lower heal well cd.

Shield

Echo of Memory : increase the aoe of the phantasm attack.

Tides of Time: this is controversial, some people prefer it this way, I find it incredible clunky to use. Revert while making not possible to fire backwards, alternatively nerf every other skill on game that can be fired backwards, gives 1sec alacrity and 1sec quickness on each way.

Mirage

Mirrors: Maintain the current funcionality and add the following, when foes pass through the mirror, the mirror breaks and deals damage, it adds counterplay to the mirrors while adding a mesmerish mindplay feature - "if I don't break the mirror the mesmer gains an evade, if I break it I'll get damaged but will null an evade".

Crystal Sands: rework into something, this is useless.

Mirage Advance: reduce the cast time, this being 3/4 not only is clunky to use it, doesn't allow any combo but also screams dodge me! There are similar skills on game that are instant. Edit: Alternatively put 1 or 2 seconds of quickness on it, so you can burst right after teleport.

Sand Through Glass: up the rollback range to 500 units, the mirror spawns at the end location or up the range 50 and maintain the mirror at the end, or reduce the cd.

Illusionary Ambush: take out the randomness or lower the cd or get some trait to reduce deceptions' cds

Jaunt: back to 3 ammo or reduce cd to 20 sec, remove confusion from the skill if needed, no one cares about the confusion on jaunt, consider upping the range a bit in trade take out the damage.

Elusive Mind: take out exhaustion, cleanse 2 condis or 1 condi and -20% deception cds, alternatively cleanse 2 condis and grants +33% mirage cloak uptime.
Increase ambush efficiency : doubles boons/conditions granted by ambush. Basically transfer the damage to mesmer himself. Alternatively Remove 1 Condition when creating a Mirage Mirror. Reduce the CD of Distortion by x seconds when gaining Mirage Cloak.

Self-Deception - Reduce cooldown on deceptions by 20%. Create a clone when deception is used.

Infinite Horizon: make IH baseline and a trait to compete with EM (changed), reason being ambushes are hard to balance with IH choice, they're either bad or good/op. WIth this you can nerf more approprietly ambushes.

Ambushes: reduce cast time on ambushes so they can fit inside or closer to the mirage cloak uptime. (.75 MC taked into account)

Merge Speed of Sands with Mirage Cloak, they're intrisically dependent, at the current time it feels like each one is half a trait. Come up with a new minor grandmaster.

Axe

Lingering Thoughts: reduce cast time so it can be covered by mirage cloak, alternatively move evade frame from axe 3 to axe 2

Imaginary Axes: 67% damage nerf is an overkill. Replace torments for longer bleeds to allow damage to ramp up as conditions should be .

Mesmer

Critical Infusion: revert, let nomad's endurance stay nerfed if needed. Precision is used by power mirages not by condi, so will get power mesmer some survivality.

Confounding Suggestions: Convert Diversion's daze into stun, maintain the daze uptime, some icd - so chronos can't abuse it, this way MoD and sword ambush can no longer proc the stun, good power mesmers always use f3 to setup the burst anyway...Increase diversion ammo to 2.

Rending Shatter: Vulnerability is increased to 2 stacks and time is reduced to 4 seconds.

Mental Anguish: Revert March 27, 2018 changes.

Fencer's finesse: Let's compare it to Swindler's Equilibrium, Silent Scope, Forceful Greatsword, this trait is clearly missing, it needs to hit 10 times to have the full benefit while the comparisons are pure passive traits. New trait would look like +120 Ferocity/power/precision; +120 additional ferocity/power/precision if wielding a sword; recharge reduced 20%.

Shattered Concentration - 2 boons removed instead of 1 (due to clone production reduction.).

Furious interruption - 1 sec icd instead of 3 (split for PVE if there are problem with this.).

Restorative Mantras - make the heal dependant of the mantra cooldown time and activate on mantra use instead of cast.

Protected Phantasms - phantasms give mesmer aegis after they get destroyed.

Signet of Humility - Reduce cd, since all transformations were reduced to 90, doesn't make much sense that the counter is still 180.

Time Warp - Make a glamour cd reduction trait.

Mass Invisibility - rework the anti-synergy between MI and Master of manipulation trait. Reduce CD to 50, if elixir s is fine the way it is consider lower MI cd to lower 30's. Alternatively give 2 ammo mechanic.

Decoy - reduce CD

Mirror Images - spawn and randomly split position the clones like IA

Decoy : remove the cancel activation time effect. (Aka don't get rupt when you are doing something.)

Arcane Thievery : Reduce Aftercast

Portal Entre : Bring back 60 sec duration but add 30 sec CD if portal Exeunt is used. Alternatively: Reduce the Max number of allies going through to 3 or even 2 and revert the duration nerf.

Signet of Inspiration: This needs to be based on what boons the Mesmer has.

Master of Manipulation - switch places with Bountiful Disillusionmentt, - 20% less cd on manipulation skills and improve the the following way:
Mirror (heal):+2s reflect
Blink: Breaks enemy targeting.
Mimic: 50% reduced adjusted cooldown.
Arcane Thievery: becomes an ammo skill with 2 charges (20s cooldown per charge).
Illusion of Life: increased "alive" duration and provides some minor stat bonus (defensive or offensive).
Mass Invis: removes reveal and outward radial pulse also hits up to 5 targets with 2s reveal (stealth your allies while briefly revealing enemies).

Greatsword

Mind Stab - Remove 3 boons, does damage per boons removed.

Illusionary Wave - The damage it does is neglectful - Reduce cd, hit on 180 degrees, consider uping the base damage too.

Staff

Phantasmal Warlock : summon only one illusion instead of two. Balance then the alone phantasm.

Chaos Armor - clean one condi on activation.

Sword

Mind Slash, Mind Gash : add 1 more vulnerability stack.

Mind Spike : dispell 1 more boon. (get the 3rd chain in PvP is nearly impossible btw.)

Blurred Frenzy: reduce the number of attacks to 4 while mantaining the damage, same as pistol whip.

Illusionary Leap - Make clone invulnerable for 1 second before its could be killed. Clone has 2400 hp,too easy to kill before you can use swap which makes skill useless and unreliable.

Phantasmal Swordsman - another controversial one, some people like it this way, I find it useless, revert back to poke phantasm or attach an immobilise to the first hit. The phantasm bugs out on uneven terrain, needs a fix.

Focus

Temporal Curtain - remove the after cast as long as we are in a meta where many class have instant hard CC aoe or increase the wall duration to 6 sec.

Phantasmal Warden - can he not get killed himself by hitting a war with retaliation ? Increase damage coefficient and (increase phantasm HP or condensate the number of hits (while conserving the bubble duration.)).

====================================================================================================
Nerfs

Mirage:

Replace torment with bleeding, take into account the damage and uptime to make sure it's well traded, this will make the profession less oppressive, you can now kite without taking damage and bleeding is overall easier to cleanse.

Mirage Cloak - a bit of controversial as well - MC can't be done while stunned.

False Oasis - Reduce scale with healing power slightly

Mesmer:

Evasive Mirror - Controversial, some people say it needs an icd or the reflect time cutted or make it affect dodges only, some people say it's fine the way it is arguing that a nice counter to projectiles is as legit as some classes immunity to condis or crits or a lot of damage mitigation.
Evasive mirror on successful evade grant mirror. Make it grant mirror after/during dodge, tied to endurance.
For mirage version each time you get mirage cloak you get 1s of mirror instead of 2s for chrono/core.
Remove ICD entirely.

Chaotic Dampening - Reduce protection from 4seconds to 3 or 2 seconds.

Confusing Images - Either make scepter condi or power and nerf taking it into account or nerf both a little.

Illusionary Counter - Increase the CD.

<134

Comments

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

    I didn't realize that this game restricted you to one profession.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

    I didn't realize that this game restricted you to one profession.

    I think he's looking for honest feedback from the people who dont have an extreme prejudice or bias and only want to nerf mes for the sake of their main class. Like some thief and ranger mains who jump into this subsection

    Many players on this subforum consider that anyone who suggest anything that is not a direct buff.

    Fort Aspenwood
    Jekkies

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

    I didn't realize that this game restricted you to one profession.

    I think he's looking for honest feedback from the people who dont have an extreme prejudice or bias and only want to nerf mes for the sake of their main class. Like some thief and ranger mains who jump into this subsection

    Many players on this subforum consider that anyone who suggest anything that is not a direct buff.

    This is true. However being part of this community ..instead of just dropping by to complain or disagree, you learn which members here takes suggestions and disagreements and actually wants to have a converaation vs who thinks the way you described.
    Which is why his request makes sense. At least to the people who actually care about the state of the class.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    Only going to comment on mirage and core from OP. Will add other things when thinking of them:

    Mirage

    Crystal Sands - yeah this is such a bad skill. Visually cool but absolutely pathetic effect, will never have a place on anyone's skill bar as it currently stands. Not got a solid idea off top of my head how to change, but open to anything.

    Mirage Advance: I was testing this a bit thinking to swap IA out for it - given the Retreat part also has detarget. The one good part which I may not remember correctly but not sure if this used to be possible - it seems you can now move in any direction while casting it and it will still work, which is nice.
    But yeah the cast time together with 900 range and no evade really kills it. I think reducing the cast time to 0.5 or even 0.25s would make it more appealing as a start, then see if more people pick it up.

    Sand Through Glass: I'm actually happy with how this functions - perfect distance to axe 2 back through the mirror. In my mind it's pretty much the equivalent of backwards dodge for mirage - but in the form of a utility skill. So in that respect all I'd consider is cooldown reduction maybe to 20s and see if more people use it. Maybe the distance could be increased by +50 units but not to be so much as out of range of axe 2 or Jaunt.

    Illusionary Ambush: I think 30s base would be solid - as it was in pof demo before they reduced it to 20.

    Jaunt: prefer reverting to 20s cooldown as in pve, rather than 3 ammo - maintains limit on initial engagement mobility but allows more regular use.

    Elusive Mind: yeah I'd be a fan of replacing stunbreak with -20% cd on Deception skills, especially if Jaunt and IA cooldowns remain as planned to be. And leave the 1 condi removed per dodge as it is. Though at the moment I'd just take 1 condi cleanse and leave it at that. xD

    Lingering Thoughts: at first was in favour of faster cast animation but now preferring evade frame moved from axe 3 to axe 2 - reasoning is easier to spend a dodge to cover the less frequent axe 3 (which also may not always need to be covered given the detarget and teleport), while turning axe 2 into axe's version of Blurred Frenzy. To limit evade can make evade duration 0.5s to cover first part of the animation, leaving the end vulnerable (a bit of counterplay).

    Mesmer

    Critical Infusion: hell yes should be reverted now. NE could also be reverted but I agree start with CI on core and see how it goes first.

    Blurred Frenzy: "reduce the number of attacks to 4 while mantaining the damage, same as pistol whip" yeah this should have happened years ago.

    Phantasmal Swordsman: I agree it's pretty useless so would be open to any improvements.

    Confounding Suggestions: "Convert Diversion's daze into stun, maintain the daze uptime, some icd - so chronos can't abuse it, this way MoD and sword ambush can no longer proc the stun, good power mesmers always use f3 to setup the burst anyway..." That sounds a good solutions, would be open to it.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Since mirage cloak is getting back at being the useless clunky kitten it was on beta, which once again will affect more power than condi. Here are some things that could use a buff.
    I know that this forums like more nerfs than buffs and buffs thread don't get as much feedback but still.
    This is pvp/wvw oriented.
    Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

    Chronomancer

    Illusionary Reversion: this one was downright smiter's booned at 16/03/2017 and even become worse at the next nerf, could use a revert.

    I agree

    Tides of Time: this is controversial, some people prefer it this way, I find it incredible clunky to use and why can't it be fired backwards when some similar skills can? ranger gs4, dh's deflecting shot for example. Revert or make it be able to fire backwards.

    Instead of a reversion. These other skills should be addressed to also not fire backwards or behind the character.

    As for the new change I'll reserve my judgement but for the looks of it, it will become even clunkier.

    We'll have to wait and see.

    Wells: all of them except gravity and heal are useless, could use some rework or tweek, bigger radius or pulse the benefits or affect 10 people in wvw or something else.

    They need to pulse throughout the duration of the well AND hit 10 targets. They are useless right now and chrono has lost most of its identity due to random and heavy handed nerfs.

    Danger Time: if I understood right this one was nerf because it's good at pve, so why not split? Is it somehow forbidden to split mesmer skills? Because some of the chronomancer stuff was nerfed back then thanks to raids and were not splitted.
    Still this nerf will be more felt in pvp/wvw than in pve.

    Probably, we'll have to see.

    Mirage

    Crystal Sands: rework into something, this is useless.

    Agree 100%.

    Mirage Advance: reduce the cast time, this being 3/4 not only is clunky to use it, doesn't allow any combo but also screams dodge me! There are similar skills on game that are instant.

    Also agree

    Sand Through Glass: up the rollback range to 500 units, the mirror spawns at the end location.

    Good change and wouldn't be to hard to adjust

    Illusionary Ambush: take out the randomness or lower the cd or get some trait to reduce deceptions' cds

    I think 30s would be a good CD for the skill.

    Jaunt: back to 3 ammo or reduce cd to 20 sec, remove confusion from the skill if needed, no one cares about the confusion on jaunt.

    Jaunt should go back to 3 charges, remove the confusion, put at 20s.

    Elusive Mind: take out exhaustion, cleanse 2 condis or 1 condi and -20% deception cds.

    I think cleansing 2 conditions and adding something like a condition immunity while Superspeed is active would be good.
    I don't see them giving a CD reduction to deception skills. Gotta cater to the whiners somehow

    Lingering Thoughts: reduce cast time so it can be covered by mirage cloak.

    Yes

    Mesmer

    Critical Infusion: revert, let nomad's endurance stay nerfed if needed. Precision is used by power mirages not by condi, so will get power mesmer some survivality.

    👍 yes

    Blurred Frenzy: reduce the number of attacks to 4 while mantaining the damage, same as pistol whip.

    Good

    Phantasmal Swordsman: another controversial one, some people like it this way, I find it useless, revert back to poke phantasm or attach an immobilise to the first hit.

    I honestly like it as is

    Confounding Suggestions: Convert Diversion's daze into stun, maintain the daze uptime, some icd - so chronos can't abuse it, this way MoD and sword ambush can no longer proc the stun, good power mesmers always use f3 to setup the burst anyway...

    Good change though I think the ICD should be 25 or 30s as to reduce the frequency of the burst setup.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    Sand Through Glass: I'm actually happy with how this functions - perfect distance to axe 2 back through the mirror. In my mind it's pretty much the equivalent of backwards dodge for mirage - but in the form of a utility skill. So in that respect all I'd consider is cooldown reduction maybe to 20s and see if more people use it. Maybe the distance could be increased by +50 units but not to be so much as out of range of axe 2 or Jaunt.

    To be honest I didn't thought about that, I mostly play power (althought axe does fine power damage, 5k+ axes of symmetry is sexy! I use sword for mobility) and I'm not a fan of waste resources to get resources (in case of jaunt to mirror) but seeing it at your light it's mostly fine yes.
    My reasoning was similar skills such as withdraw and lightning reflexes.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    Sand Through Glass: I'm actually happy with how this functions - perfect distance to axe 2 back through the mirror. In my mind it's pretty much the equivalent of backwards dodge for mirage - but in the form of a utility skill. So in that respect all I'd consider is cooldown reduction maybe to 20s and see if more people use it. Maybe the distance could be increased by +50 units but not to be so much as out of range of axe 2 or Jaunt.

    To be honest I didn't thought about that, I mostly play power (althought axe does fine power damage, 5k+ axes of symmetry is sexy! I use sword for mobility) and I'm not a fan of waste resources to get resources (in case of jaunt to mirror) but seeing it at your light it's mostly fine yes.
    My reasoning was similar skills such as withdraw and lightning reflexes.

    I speculate that it was designed more to function with things like axe 2 and jaunt (jaunt definitely because I remember that being described to jaunt back to the mirror in a demo video) and being a pseudo backward dodge for mirage. I find that as StG always goes backwards in the direction of the character, it sometimes is then a case of repositioning to line up target and mirror and then axe 2 back through both for aoe weakness and evade frame to cover it. Additionally the mirror on the floor is a nice way to cover heal.

    The issue I feel is the cooldown is just too long for what will soon amount to two separate 0.75s evades. Often I don't even use it as a stunbreak - instead just as a backward dodge for position.

    There are other possibilities for StG such as:

    • remove stunbreak (put that on mirage advance instead - solve some other problems there)
    • reduce the cooldown heavily eg, 10 seconds
    • make it an ammo skill with 2 charges (10s per charge)

    This way it would function as backwards dodge only and would also solve a lot of issue of mirage not having easy backward dodge mobility as standard.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 1, 2019

    Made some edits on the first post with things found in other threads:

    Infinite Horizon: make IH baseline and a trait to compete with EM (changed), reason being ambushes are hard to balance with IH choice, they're either bad or good/op. WIth this you can nerf more approprietly ambushes.

    Ambushes: reduce cast time on ambushes so they can fit inside or closer to the mirage cloak uptime.

    Fencer's finesse: Comparing to similar traits - Swindler's Equilibrium, Silent Scope, Forceful Greatsword, this one is clearly lacking.

    After toying a bit with Mirage's Advance and get used to it, it's not as bad as I thought, I think it's one of the highest potential skills on mirage.
    So I found an alternative, put 1 or 2 sec of quickness on it, to allow a burst even with the slow cast time.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019

    I still have hope ANet and especially Robert realise their mistake of mc cut-down.
    I'll quote myself from other thread:

    You cannot change a mechanic after several years of release and expect it works, people have develop muscular memory and timings that are now deeply ingrained. Imagine if they change steal to have a cast time or up the cds on ele attunement change, it would break all the flow and feel like kitten. Same thing will happen here.

    Included a list of right nerfs and Curunen suggestions.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Here are some things that could use a buff and the right things to nerf (these nerfs don't take into account 05/03 balance patch) - according to the mesmer community.
    This is pvp/wvw oriented.

    Feel free to add yours suggestions or share your thoughts (mesmer only community tho, no "knowledgeable community" allowed B) )

    My feedback and thoughts on this (Mesmer main in pretty much everything);

    BUFFS:

    Chronomancer

    Illusionary Reversion: this one was downright smiter's booned at 16/03/2017 and even become worse at the next nerf, could use a revert.

    AMEN! Give me back the power shatter options.

    Tides of Time: this is controversial, some people prefer it this way, I find it incredible clunky to use and why can't it be fired backwards when some similar skills can? ranger gs4, dh's deflecting shot for example. Revert or make it be able to fire backwards.
    As for the new change I'll reserve my judgement but for the looks of it, it will become even clunkier.

    I really want that to go back to the non-targeted functionality, with the new tech that prevents you using it behind you. Simple, fixed. Turn to face opponent, use it, THEN run.

    Wells: all of them except gravity and heal are useless, could use some rework or tweek, bigger radius or pulse the benefits or affect 10 people in wvw or something else.

    Agreed. And heal is almost useless due to the slight delay to groundcast it properly and the recharge. It should be 20, like Ether Feast. Also, frankly, would like to see it not ground target, and instead center on you with a slightly larger radius.

    Danger Time: if I understood right this one was nerf because it's good at pve, so why not split? Is it somehow forbidden to split mesmer skills? Because some of the chronomancer stuff was nerfed back then thanks to raids and were not splitted.
    Still this nerf will be more felt in pvp/wvw than in pve.

    Mirage

    Crystal Sands: rework into something, this is useless.

    Totally. Into what I have no idea.

    Mirage Advance: reduce the cast time, this being 3/4 not only is clunky to use it, doesn't allow any combo but also screams dodge me! There are similar skills on game that are instant. Edit: Alternatively put 1 or 2 seconds of quickness on it, so you can burst right after teleport.

    Sand Through Glass: up the rollback range to 500 units, the mirror spawns at the end location or up the range 50 and maintain the mirror at the end.

    I think Mirage Mirrors also need to either break when you get to them (current functions) OR shatter like a single clone Mind Wrack if an enmy touches it (allowing them to be used somewhat offensively to cover a withdraw).

    Illusionary Ambush: take out the randomness or lower the cd or get some trait to reduce deceptions' cds

    Jaunt: back to 3 ammo or reduce cd to 20 sec, remove confusion from the skill if needed, no one cares about the confusion on jaunt.

    My idea, leave the confusion, remove the damage, increase the range (600), ammo count 2.

    Elusive Mind: take out exhaustion, cleanse 2 condis or 1 condi and -20% deception cds.

    I like something more like what @Curunen.8729 and I suggested. Remove Stun Break, Remove Exhaustion, Increase Condi Removal to 2 and increase Mirage Cloak Duration. Or, it turns Mirage Cloak into a short distance Dodge Blink.

    Lingering Thoughts: reduce cast time so it can be covered by mirage cloak, alternatively move evade frame from axe 3 to axe 2

    Infinite Horizon: make IH baseline and a trait to compete with EM (changed), reason being ambushes are hard to balance with IH choice, they're either bad or good/op. WIth this you can nerf more approprietly ambushes.

    Ambushes: reduce cast time on ambushes so they can fit inside or closer to the mirage cloak uptime. (.75 MC taked into account)

    Agreed.

    Mesmer

    Critical Infusion: revert, let nomad's endurance stay nerfed if needed. Precision is used by power mirages not by condi, so will get power mesmer some survivality.

    Blurred Frenzy: reduce the number of attacks to 4 while mantaining the damage, same as pistol whip.

    Yeah, makes sense and is fair. It's still a high damage skill, but reduces the number of changes to trigger a crit (which is where it really hurts).

    Phantasmal Swordsman: another controversial one, some people like it this way, I find it useless, revert back to poke phantasm or attach an immobilise to the first hit.

    Confounding Suggestions: Convert Diversion's daze into stun, maintain the daze uptime, some icd - so chronos can't abuse it, this way MoD and sword ambush can no longer proc the stun, good power mesmers always use f3 to setup the burst anyway...

    Fencer's finesse: Let's compare it to Swindler's Equilibrium, Silent Scope, Forceful Greatsword, this trait is clearly missing, it needs to hit 10 times to have the full benefit while the comparisons are pure passive traits. Either nerf all similar traits or buff this one to give passive 120 ferocity.

    Going to slightly disagree here. I think this one is fine as is. I run it a lot in WvW, and credit it for winning a lot of my prolonged fights.

    Signet of Humility - Reduce cd, since all transformations were reduced to 90, doesn't make much sense that the counter is still 180.

    Agreed. Frankly, this should be 90 seconds, like most every other Elite. It's a short transform, and the enemy can still DO things during it. Like most commonly run faster than I can catch.

    Time Warp - Make a glamour cd reduction trait.

    Need this so much. Also frankly need an Illusion CD trait back.

    Mass Invisibility - rework the anti-synergy between MI and Master of manipulation trait.

    ====================================================================================================
    NERFS:

    Mirage:

    Replace torment with bleeding, take into account the damage and uptime to make sure it's well traded, this will make the profession less oppressive, you can now kite without taking damage and bleeding is overall easier to cleanse.

    AGREED 100% Frankly, I think Torment should be unique to Necromancer and Revenant.

    Confusing Images - Either make scepter condi or power and nerf taking it into account or nerf both a little.

    Agreed, the weapon is frankly a mess, a bit confusing, pardon the pun.

    Illusionary Counter - Increase the CD.

    Axe ambush - needs a condi tonedown.

    Mirage Cloak - a bit of controversial as well - MC can't be done while stunned.

    In my mind, MC being able to be done while stunned is a core part of the concept. But that should be it. No stun break, even with a trait.

    Mesmer:

    Evasive Mirror - Controversial, some people say it needs an icd or the reflect time cutted, some people say it's fine the way it is.

    I really don't use it much. I get more mileage out of Fencer's Finesse, and I (like many others) can just abuse Blinding Dissipation much more reliably.

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    (DC of course would still need something to make it appealing)

    I occasionally use DC in PvE when just wandering maps to gather to damage enemies on Dodge and kill em a little quicker. But yeah, other than that niche use it's kinda trash.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2, 2019

    Added your ideas to the initial post.

    Regarding Blurred Frenzy tbh the change was to decrease the retal potential damage, but that's a nice take on it too.
    As for Fencer's Finess, the change was proposed by Odik but I got what he meant
    Old trait:
    Fencer's Finesse (6s): 15 Ferocity
    Maximum Stacks: 10
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    New one would be:
    Ferocity: +120
    Additional Ferocity (if wielding a sword): +120
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    So, you wouldn't lose anything (well you lose +30 ferocity if non-wielding a sword). Added some clarity to this one on the first post.

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭

    Regarding Evasive Mirror. I was initially in the camp of it receiving an efficacy nerf but, seeing what nerfs are coming to Mesmer soon, I think it's not much of a concern anymore. As soon as you come up against a spec that isn't relying on projectiles for any real damage, the trait is rather redundant. Whereas, you could slot Blinding Dissipation and have more survivability against non-projectile attacks too.

    Can't help but think that most of the issue is just Soulbeasts not adequately utilising a merged Call of the Wild before machine gunning with Longbow or shotgunning with axe. I guess it also shuts down off point pew pew from a Deadeye. But maybe it's a good thing to have a class functioning as a strong counter to high damage projectile burst...

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    Regarding Evasive Mirror. I was initially in the camp of it receiving an efficacy nerf but, seeing what nerfs are coming to Mesmer soon, I think it's not much of a concern anymore. As soon as you come up against a spec that isn't relying on projectiles for any real damage, the trait is rather redundant. Whereas, you could slot Blinding Dissipation and have more survivability against non-projectile attacks too.

    Can't help but think that most of the issue is just Soulbeasts not adequately utilising a merged Call of the Wild before machine gunning with Longbow or shotgunning with axe. I guess it also shuts down off point pew pew from a Deadeye. But maybe it's a good thing to have a class functioning as a strong counter to high damage projectile burst...

    I dislike it because it's brainless, you don't dodge to reflect a skill, you dodge to evade a skill then just get "free" reflect afterwards. That's why I think it should be during dodge (or during evade in general?).

    // Yanim

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Added your ideas to the initial post.

    Regarding Blurred Frenzy tbh the change was to decrease the retal potential damage, but that's a nice take on it too.
    As for Fencer's Finess, the change was proposed by Odik but I got what he meant
    Old trait:
    Fencer's Finesse (6s): 15 Ferocity
    Maximum Stacks: 10
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    New one would be:
    Ferocity: +120
    Additional Ferocity (if wielding a sword): +120
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    So, you wouldn't lose anything (well you lose +30 ferocity if non-wielding a sword). Added some clarity to this one on the first post.

    I think this could be not ferocity but may be power/precision?
    Also Its like an axe trait for warrior counterpart. We can use 2 sword (sadly offhand isnt really good in pvp but w/e)
    IF you have at least 1 sword,then you et 120 stats, two -240.

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    I dislike it because it's brainless, you don't dodge to reflect a skill, you dodge to evade a skill then just get "free" reflect afterwards. That's why I think it should be during dodge (or during evade in general?).

    2s mirror each time you spent endurance for an evade... ? So weapon evades wont trigger mirror anymore. If you want to burn the trait with fire 1.5s ?

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Added your ideas to the initial post.

    Regarding Blurred Frenzy tbh the change was to decrease the retal potential damage, but that's a nice take on it too.
    As for Fencer's Finess, the change was proposed by Odik but I got what he meant
    Old trait:
    Fencer's Finesse (6s): 15 Ferocity
    Maximum Stacks: 10
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    New one would be:
    Ferocity: +120
    Additional Ferocity (if wielding a sword): +120
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    So, you wouldn't lose anything (well you lose +30 ferocity if non-wielding a sword). Added some clarity to this one on the first post.

    I think this could be not ferocity but may be power/precision?
    Also Its like an axe trait for warrior counterpart. We can use 2 sword (sadly offhand isnt really good in pvp but w/e)
    IF you have at least 1 sword,then you et 120 stats, two -240.

    I think it is better the way that you get 120 X even without having a sword equip akin to some other traits, reason being you will lose 240 X as soon as you change weapons.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Added your ideas to the initial post.

    Regarding Blurred Frenzy tbh the change was to decrease the retal potential damage, but that's a nice take on it too.
    As for Fencer's Finess, the change was proposed by Odik but I got what he meant
    Old trait:
    Fencer's Finesse (6s): 15 Ferocity
    Maximum Stacks: 10
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    New one would be:
    Ferocity: +120
    Additional Ferocity (if wielding a sword): +120
    Recharge Reduced: 20%

    So, you wouldn't lose anything (well you lose +30 ferocity if non-wielding a sword). Added some clarity to this one on the first post.

    I think this could be not ferocity but may be power/precision?
    Also Its like an axe trait for warrior counterpart. We can use 2 sword (sadly offhand isnt really good in pvp but w/e)
    IF you have at least 1 sword,then you et 120 stats, two -240.

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    I dislike it because it's brainless, you don't dodge to reflect a skill, you dodge to evade a skill then just get "free" reflect afterwards. That's why I think it should be during dodge (or during evade in general?).

    2s mirror each time you spent endurance for an evade... ? So weapon evades wont trigger mirror anymore. If you want to burn the trait with fire 1.5s ?

    I like "reflect while you evade" more. So dodge, blurred frenzy, etc work as reflects.
    If that's too op then just "reflect while you dodge".

    // Yanim

  • Belishine.7493Belishine.7493 Member ✭✭✭

    by a full overview i see the changes to mes is almost puting the mes in the same spot it still is. yes our dodge is geting more skill based and the condi is geting a hit but it looks like it might be more in line with other classes. other then that i see no change that makes mes any better or weeker then it already is.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 3, 2019

    @Belishine.7493 said:
    by a full overview i see the changes to mes is almost puting the mes in the same spot it still is. yes our dodge is geting more skill based and the condi is geting a hit but it looks like it might be more in line with other classes. other then that i see no change that makes mes any better or weeker then it already is.

    I don't know if you're referring to patch or these changes in particular.
    If the first the axes changes were not bad, could be better if torment was hit instead but the mc is a wrong nerf again - some reasons, the one I mentioned above, the fact that power mirage is not a problem and again will be affected, the fact that no skill cast time was taken into account, ambushes and axe 2 in particular, and it will be harder to get out of danger since you only walk at ss forward and the ss was cut, so to you have less time to about face and run.

    If the second, the nerfs would definitely make condi mirage weaker. The sole change of trading torment for bleeding would be a huge tonedown.
    As for buffs it's not as much to get it in a stronger state but to open up more choices.

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    As for buffs it's not as much to get it in a stronger state but to open up more choices.

    That's kind of what I was getting at here when I asked if Mesmer was the only class getting straight nerfs and no buffs. Without compensating elsewhere for nerfs, or reworking underutilized mechanics, the last balance update further narrowed choices and solidified already fairly singular ones. The last several balance updates in fact seem to funnel people into an ever shrinking number of viable builds, rather than enabling build diversity.

    Major one from previous update:

    • Gut portal? Push everyone to Illusionary Ambush.

    With this latest update:

    • Stack exhaustion? Elusive Mind is even more useless than it already was. IH is still the only choice. Might as well make it baseline as many have suggested.
    • Nerf Ineptitude (and by extension its synergy with Blinding Dissipation)? Anyone who wasn't already running Evasive Mirror and Deceptive Evasion will now.
    • Nerf Axe (for like the second or third time)? Guess they want more scepter. Though tbf, axe still does enough. It's in an okay place now.

    These are just the obvious things that we already know. Just wish there was a little more "give" with their "take", not to keep certain builds OP, but to allow for variety and diversity.

    I'm neither here nor there.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Regarding MA, further testing finding StG is still more successful for me even though both could do with slight buff of some sort. Reason - the clutch evade frames on reasonably low cooldown. First time in a long time playing a build without any stealth/detarget utility which for mesmer is kind of always good to have one to create breathing room. But currently most of them aren't good enough - Decoy too long cd, Mirror Images a joke, IA too long cooldown (especially given chance of bad rng/fail position), MA no evade, Veil useless when solo...

    The only one that is in a secure state is Signet of Midnight, but as mentioned elsewhere I don't like using it - partly because stealth+reflects don't play well. The rest of them could do with slight cd shaves or redesigns (Mirror Images) or other tweaks (MA 0.75s evade like axe 3).

    Mirror Images ought to spawn and randomly split position the clones like IA, just obviously without the mirage cloak being a core skill. As it currently just spawns on you it's totally useless especially if under cleave.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    As for buffs it's not as much to get it in a stronger state but to open up more choices.

    That's kind of what I was getting at here when I asked if Mesmer was the only class getting straight nerfs and no buffs. Without compensating elsewhere for nerfs, or reworking underutilized mechanics, the last balance update further narrowed choices and solidified already fairly singular ones. The last several balance updates in fact seem to funnel people into an ever shrinking number of viable builds, rather than enabling build diversity.

    Major one from previous update:

    • Gut portal? Push everyone to Illusionary Ambush.

    With this latest update:

    • Stack exhaustion? Elusive Mind is even more useless than it already was. IH is still the only choice. Might as well make it baseline as many have suggested.
    • Nerf Ineptitude (and by extension its synergy with Blinding Dissipation)? Anyone who wasn't already running Evasive Mirror and Deceptive Evasion will now.
    • Nerf Axe (for like the second or third time)? Guess they want more scepter. Though tbf, axe still does enough. It's in an okay place now.

    These are just the obvious things that we already know. Just wish there was a little more "give" with their "take", not to keep certain builds OP, but to allow for variety and diversity.

    I don't know why they don't take suggestions from mesmers, I mean mes community suggestions aren't over the top, if you go to some of other profession forums, you'll see some of the most op suggestions ever made, you don't even need to get past page 1, plus mesmer even suggest nerfs, you don't see much of this as well.
    As for exhaustion it was first suggested on this forums, I don't remember by whom (I know it is a gw1 mechanic), as a condition mesmers would inflict to foes, look how that turned out.

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Regarding MA, further testing finding StG is still more successful for me even though both could do with slight buff of some sort. Reason - the clutch evade frames on reasonably low cooldown. First time in a long time playing a build without any stealth/detarget utility which for mesmer is kind of always good to have one to create breathing room. But currently most of them aren't good enough - Decoy too long cd, Mirror Images a joke, IA too long cooldown (especially given chance of bad rng/fail position), MA no evade, Veil useless when solo...

    The only one that is in a secure state is Signet of Midnight, but as mentioned elsewhere I don't like using it - partly because stealth+reflects don't play well. The rest of them could do with slight cd shaves or redesigns (Mirror Images) or other tweaks (MA 0.75s evade like axe 3).

    Mirror Images ought to spawn and randomly split position the clones like IA, just obviously without the mirage cloak being a core skill. As it currently just spawns on you it's totally useless especially if under cleave.

    I tried the weapon swap with quickness and MA, it works, slightly harder to pull off than the traditional blink. Still don't find it optimal.
    Even with huge cd and the ocasional kitten up and teleport you right into 2351 traps, IA is still the better deception imo.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Axe ambush does zero damage, idk what further you want to nerf. Axe 2 is trash,it does need buffs,not nerfs. Axe 3 evade is fine ,why would u remove it and make it another useless skill ?
    Anet demonstrated that they ,as usual, know nothing absolutely. Instead of destroying mirage entirely they could take a look at overperforming meta build and spot CHAOS traitline and nerf it + evasive mirror . Any build that ran without chaos been BAD and now every build that doesnt include chaos is ...just horrible .
    0.75s evade ... I think I didnt play mirage during beta when it was 0.75 but now its just horrible .
    tldr: just play another class

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Axe ambush does zero damage, idk what further you want to nerf. Axe 2 is trash,it does need buffs,not nerfs. Axe 3 evade is fine ,why would u remove it and make it another useless skill ?
    Anet demonstrated that they ,as usual, know nothing absolutely. Instead of destroying mirage entirely they could take a look at overperforming meta build and spot CHAOS traitline and nerf it + evasive mirror . Any build that ran without chaos been BAD and now every build that doesnt include chaos is ...just horrible .
    0.75s evade ... I think I didnt play mirage during beta when it was 0.75 but now its just horrible .
    tldr: just play another class

    these nerfs don't take into account 05/03 balance patch
    rolling a scrapper since apparently lots of people think it's fine :v

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    Axe ambush does zero damage, idk what further you want to nerf. Axe 2 is trash,it does need buffs,not nerfs. Axe 3 evade is fine ,why would u remove it and make it another useless skill ?
    Anet demonstrated that they ,as usual, know nothing absolutely. Instead of destroying mirage entirely they could take a look at overperforming meta build and spot CHAOS traitline and nerf it + evasive mirror . Any build that ran without chaos been BAD and now every build that doesnt include chaos is ...just horrible .
    0.75s evade ... I think I didnt play mirage during beta when it was 0.75 but now its just horrible .
    tldr: just play another class

    these nerfs don't take into account 05/03 balance patch
    rolling a scrapper since apparently lots of people think it's fine :v

    RIGHT.

    It's not OK for any other class to stall 3+ players except Engi.
    Only Engi's can use the " it has counters" argument.
    And only engi's can justify a spec being OP with the " it's not that OP in plat2+, gold doesn't matter"
    It's great. Love seeing the blatant hypocrisy.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Scepter 3 probably does too much physical damage in the grand scheme of things on a condition build but let's be real, the auto attack chain and ambush attacks for scepter are hot, hot garbage. If you opponent is running away they're going to outpace your projectiles. Scepter 3 is your only real kill potential with scepter. Like let's say your running Carrion which a pretty standard choice for a condition damage amulet and Adventure which is pretty normal for condition damage builds.

    Your auto attack chain is going to do:

    729 damage maximum (355 physical plus 2.25 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed)
    916 damage maximum (355 physical plus 3.25 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed)

    And the final skill on the Auto Attack chain is going to do either:

    399 physical damage only

    Or

    2081 damage maximum (399 physical plus 10 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed) only if you have 3 illusions when you cast this skill which really isn't that likely considering how fast they die.

    Like even the extremely restrictive final part of the attack chain designed to be super powerful does only about as much damage as a Holosmith's Rifle 1 attack on a crit. And unlike the Holosmith who can expect to crit extremely regularly crit chance isn't going to be that useful to a condition class as it's not like critical strikes with conditions apply double the duration of the condition itself (Though this would be an interesting idea to play around with).

    You're never going to kill anyone with the scepter auto attacks. And the ambush skill isn't that much better frankly, you're spending a bar of endurance that best case scenario on this build with 3x clones is going to output about 3k damage on a target.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Scepter 3 probably does too much physical damage in the grand scheme of things on a condition build but let's be real, the auto attack chain and ambush attacks for scepter are hot, hot garbage. If you opponent is running away they're going to outpace your projectiles. Scepter 3 is your only real kill potential with scepter. Like let's say your running Carrion which a pretty standard choice for a condition damage amulet and Adventure which is pretty normal for condition damage builds.

    Your auto attack chain is going to do:

    729 damage maximum (355 physical plus 2.25 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed)
    916 damage maximum (355 physical plus 3.25 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed)

    And the final skill on the Auto Attack chain is going to do either:

    399 physical damage only

    Or

    2081 damage maximum (399 physical plus 10 seconds of torment calculated at moving speed) only if you have 3 illusions when you cast this skill which really isn't that likely considering how fast they die.

    Like even the extremely restrictive final part of the attack chain designed to be super powerful does only about as much damage as a Holosmith's Rifle 1 attack on a crit. And unlike the Holosmith who can expect to crit extremely regularly crit chance isn't going to be that useful to a condition class as it's not like critical strikes with conditions apply double the duration of the condition itself (Though this would be an interesting idea to play around with).

    You're never going to kill anyone with the scepter auto attacks. And the ambush skill isn't that much better frankly, you're spending a bar of endurance that best case scenario on this build with 3x clones is going to output about 3k damage on a target.

    Scepter 3 does "physical damage in the grand scheme of things" when it comes to MIRAGE. If you compare it to other classes it's actually pathetic, which is what i tried to convey in my post. The damage it does is nothing remarkable for its cast time and if anything it's even low because it casts so slow. Imagine if you played a ranger and you had mesmer's scepter 3? It would be horrible. It works for mesmer because you have illusions that distract and detarget and a blink which helps you position with it and it's a good skill but it's not overpowered and without the grandmaster trait i'd say its not even worth using in many situations

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Like it's said on the first post, the nerfs don't take into account the last patch, at this point not only I think mirage doesn't need nerfs I think also MC needs a revert.
    It doesn't make any sense to sell a attack and evade at once mechanic just to get it deleted.
    Most attacks and ambushes have cast time longer than the evade.

  • Magolith.9412Magolith.9412 Member ✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    but let's be real, the auto attack chain and ambush attacks for scepter are hot, hot garbage.

    This. Scepter's AA is barely tolerable even when traited.

    YouTube | [WS] Mesmer Mag [Fort Aspenwood]

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    as for buffs, axe was completely gutted with the last patch. You can't use mirage ambush on people behind you but the axe puts you behind people, its incredibly stupid its a spite nerf its not a reasonable nerf. The developers that came up with this change must personally dislike mirage for it because the change completely kills axe.

    Gonna comment on this bit, the nerf part is mentioned in the post above: the proposed nerfs don't take into account the patch is more as "if patch didn't exist, you could have done that", I'll edit for clarity.

    The developers don't come up with anything, that nerf was proposed by BringYourFriends on YouTube and commented on forums.
    At least they listened to a mesmer main this time lul.

  • incisorr.9502incisorr.9502 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't really feel the mirage cloak change tbh

    meanwhile

    as long as there's stuff like this in the game, nerfing scepter sounds preposterous, the dmg is actually weak compared to other power classes

    my ranger with demolisher amulet and 20k hp and protection on dodge is capable of doing 20k dmg with a single rapid fire which is unblockable (with pet merge) with reveal and more range while also being 3 times tankier than my mirage with double its range and obviously a pet

    a 1;1 comparison between classes is not reasonable but sometimes you need stuff like this to see what you're dealing with, i don't think scep3 is overpowered considering it almost requires a trait to even be usable

    honestly the axe nerf was just incredibly bad. You, as a developer, should want your game to keep up with the times and to be modern. Modern games are a lot more fluid than older games are in general and the speed is better so people can focus on the actual gameplay instead of random tedious small hiccups and mechanics, even older games have a ton of animation canceling (aion for example) and for some reason instead of them making the game more fluid by making skills turn your character around and make them usable on people behind you, not just mirage skills but ANY skills for any class, they go in the exact opposite direction of that and make the game much clunkier. Now using axe mirage ambush feels wrong because it's a melee weapon so people walking behind you or you walking behind them happens all the time and then you wont get the mirage ambush attack to go off, on top of that not all axes can hit the target any more so there's just screen clutter and effects but no actual hits, kitten? thse changes baffle me so much

    i don't know who this mirage main is that proposed the nerfs but he clearly has no perspective and vision on how gameplay can be improved

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @incisorr.9502 said:
    I don't really feel the mirage cloak change tbh

    meanwhile

    as long as there's stuff like this in the game, nerfing scepter sounds preposterous, the dmg is actually weak compared to other power classes

    my ranger with demolisher amulet and 20k hp and protection on dodge is capable of doing 20k dmg with a single rapid fire which is unblockable (with pet merge) with reveal and more range while also being 3 times tankier than my mirage with double its range and obviously a pet

    a 1;1 comparison between classes is not reasonable but sometimes you need stuff like this to see what you're dealing with, i don't think scep3 is overpowered considering it almost requires a trait to even be usable

    honestly the axe nerf was just incredibly bad. You, as a developer, should want your game to keep up with the times and to be modern. Modern games are a lot more fluid than older games are in general and the speed is better so people can focus on the actual gameplay instead of random tedious small hiccups and mechanics, even older games have a ton of animation canceling (aion for example) and for some reason instead of them making the game more fluid by making skills turn your character around and make them usable on people behind you, not just mirage skills but ANY skills for any class, they go in the exact opposite direction of that and make the game much clunkier. Now using axe mirage ambush feels wrong because it's a melee weapon so people walking behind you or you walking behind them happens all the time and then you wont get the mirage ambush attack to go off, on top of that not all axes can hit the target any more so there's just screen clutter and effects but no actual hits, kitten? thse changes baffle me so much

    i don't know who this mirage main is that proposed the nerfs but he clearly has no perspective and vision on how gameplay can be improved

    I agree. The mirage cloak nerf is fine. Axe damage probably needed some trimming, too (although arguably it's a higher risk weapon due to the MC changes, so...). But the facing requirement doesn't make sense with axe. Axe 2 is designed to be covered by mirage cloak, which naturally means that at the end of it you're supposed to ambush. But because you're at melee range, axe 2 places you behind the target, locked into an animation that has you facing away from them. I think they should consider reverting the facing requirement.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 22, 2019

    I agree with both of you on the anti-synergistic nature of axe ambush facing requirement with skills like axe 2 which if used through a target, faces you away from it.

    It's awkward and clunky in practice to constantly 180 pan the camera during axe 2 in order to land a follow up ambush - especially considering the likelihood of dodge covering axe 2 which enables ambush - and here you're solely reliant on IH clones (but obviously not the axe 2 one as it spawns after the fact...). And indirectly another result of the balancing around mandatory IH use... without that you lose a fair amount of damage due to frequently facing away.

    It's nit like staff, scepter or GS which don't frequently move you through your target in melee range to face away from it.

    The only silver lining as mentioned in the other thread is that you can prestige sooner after an axe 2 without worrying about delayed flying axes hitting target afterwards, immediately breaking stealth and revealing you (other than the one from the axe trait) which slightly remedies the anti-synergistic nature of stealth with axe in melee range.

    I remember the suggestion in Countless' video, but because of these issues do not agree with it. I believe this was an incorrect decision due to the design of axe 2 and the use in melee having the indirect effect of nerfing damage even further due to number of times of not casting (other than IH clones) unless you're constantly flicking your camera around - which is neither comfortable nor fun to do.

    IH hybrid | My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    MC cut is definitely felt, even more if you play power. Even tho you can feel it on condi, staff ambush is now a free rupt for example.

    As for scepter 3 it depends on the pov, is it currently op? No. Will it be better off nerfed for the greater good? Absolutely. What I mean by this is, scepter 3 should be nerfed if reaper shroud 5 and 3, backstab, vault, dj, rapid fire, maul, winter's bite, holo skills, gunflame, shacking wave, CoF and the likes were all nerfed too.

    And let's be honest, apart from mesmers, no one else suggest nerfs to their classes.
    Heck, even scrappers are saying they're fine and l2p.

    Look at these buffs suggestions? Is there anything that makes you say "that will be op af?"
    Go check on other professions forums, particularly the victim complex ones, you'll facepalm while mumbling "delusionals" in less than a minute I guarantee you that.

  • @incisorr.9502 said:
    hard disagree on the nerfs part

    if you play a mirage and a scourge back to back you'll be absolutely astonished how ludicrously easy it is to kill people as a scourge, you use 1 skill and get 5 conditions on him while also removing 3 boons lmao

    mirage needs a revert on the axe nerfs and the only justifiable / realistic nerf at this point for mirage is with evasive mirror, evasive mirror is way too strong. It should be reworked to have 50-100% longer cooldown or make it like 10/20 second cooldown with 5 sec duration (still much lower uptime than what it is now)

    absolutely no nerfs on scepter , the weapon was BUFFED MULTIPLE TIMES DUE TO BEING TOO WEAK AND NOT USED (I still used it way before any of the buffs but only cause i like scepter and its concept). If they were to suddenly nerf scepter that's a complete and direct contradiction of themselves, you cant just buff a thing then next patch nerf it unless its broken and scepter isn't broken cus it's been like this for more than half a year. People started taking more notice of scepter now because it got more popular all of a sudden but the skill has been like this for ages

    also if you think scepter does too much dmg i suggest you try playing scepter without the grandmaster trait for scepter and see how much dmg you're gonna do, it has 1 sec windup on the cast animation and 2.5 sec cast time, it;'s the slowest skill in teh game and it BARELY DOES 10k dmg with power builds while a warrior does 10k PER HIT with rampage that has INSTANT CAST and CC effect. LMAO. How can you even compare?

    Ranger rapid fire on a full dps build does 20k damage with 1500 range and 2 times faster cast time but mesmer's 10k damage on a power build (and its lower on condi builds so its not even that big of a factor).

    9 HITS , DO REMEMBER THE SKILL IS 10 HITS. So a ranger can quite literally oneshot you from almost double range with TWO TIMES FASTER CAST ABILITY but scepter has to get nerfed? No, people need to be more fair and rational when looking at these things and to compare classes against each other

    considering how gutted mesmer was with all the last patches, nerfing the few things that are left is stupid

    as for buffs, axe was completely gutted with the last patch. You can't use mirage ambush on people behind you but the axe puts you behind people, its incredibly stupid its a spite nerf its not a reasonable nerf. The developers that came up with this change must personally dislike mirage for it because the change completely kills axe. Went from stacking 40 torment on a immovable golem to 20 and 20 stacks of torment does 1k damage and can be removed and takes an entire second to tick (on a standing target). Meanwhile in 1second a thief can do 15k backstab and a 10k heartseeker right after out of stealth from 30m away with steal xd

    the axe nerfs need to be reverted, you can keep the mirage cloak nerf and even the shatter nerf (which i dont think was fair because now F2 is incredibly weak and worthless, at least buff its power dmg to compensate how little effect this skill has by itself without illusions trait)

    i quite literally bought PoF because of the axe. I hated sword because it didn't fit my style and i don't like staff because it's too passive weapon and its a defensive weapon and a much slower 1v1/point based weapon while axe was offensive and aggressive and it had everything i wanted it to have ,it had good aoe spread dmg (with mirage cloak) and some defense (with 3) and also focused offense and helped you combo (with 3). Mesmer only has 3 options for 1handed weapon and sword doesnt have any conditions do it and the mirage cloak on sword is clunky as hell and doesn't help so that leaves only axe and scepter and axe is complete trash on this patch. They made it clunky as hell, ambush not activating half of the time because they walk behind you while you're casting it or because your skills put your target behind you

    Even if they reverted the axe nerfs you'd still be much weaker cause F2 had a massive nerf and you still wouldn't get the same confusion combo with axe 3 but the mechanic reworks on axe were completely horrible and gutted the weapon, now the torments just go by and dont hit the enemy and dont stack and it cant be used behind you. I dont care much about the 3 nerf , sure losing 3 confusion stacks on top of losing 4 more from the F2 nerf is absolutely horrible but the other axe nerfs are much worse

    I agree entirly,Many nerf are totally unreasonable.I'm bound to say that Developers have almost eliminated all the features and pleasures of mirage.

  • @incisorr.9502 said:
    I don't really feel the mirage cloak change tbh

    meanwhile

    as long as there's stuff like this in the game, nerfing scepter sounds preposterous, the dmg is actually weak compared to other power classes

    my ranger with demolisher amulet and 20k hp and protection on dodge is capable of doing 20k dmg with a single rapid fire which is unblockable (with pet merge) with reveal and more range while also being 3 times tankier than my mirage with double its range and obviously a pet

    a 1;1 comparison between classes is not reasonable but sometimes you need stuff like this to see what you're dealing with, i don't think scep3 is overpowered considering it almost requires a trait to even be usable

    honestly the axe nerf was just incredibly bad. You, as a developer, should want your game to keep up with the times and to be modern. Modern games are a lot more fluid than older games are in general and the speed is better so people can focus on the actual gameplay instead of random tedious small hiccups and mechanics, even older games have a ton of animation canceling (aion for example) and for some reason instead of them making the game more fluid by making skills turn your character around and make them usable on people behind you, not just mirage skills but ANY skills for any class, they go in the exact opposite direction of that and make the game much clunkier. Now using axe mirage ambush feels wrong because it's a melee weapon so people walking behind you or you walking behind them happens all the time and then you wont get the mirage ambush attack to go off, on top of that not all axes can hit the target any more so there's just screen clutter and effects but no actual hits, kitten? thse changes baffle me so much

    i don't know who this mirage main is that proposed the nerfs but he clearly has no perspective and vision on how gameplay can be improved

    I guess the developers of these changes are simply looking for NPCs to test.Or maybe there's no test at all.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Updated with some suggestions by Odik:
    Elusive mind, Self-Deception, Illusionary leap, Illusionary wave, evasive mirror, Imaginary axes, false oasis, mass invisibility.
    Updated with mass invisibility suggestion by mortrialus.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Updated with some suggestions by Odik:
    Elusive mind, Self-Deception, Illusionary leap, Illusionary wave, evasive mirror, Imaginary axes, false oasis, mass invisibility.
    Updated with mass invisibility suggestion by mortrialus.

    I havent found most important QoL : ambush cast time to match MC . You literally naked 50% of its cast

    Confusing Images - Either make scepter condi or power and nerf taking it into account or nerf both a little.

    Looking at stupid rapid fire for 25-30k in pvp... twice as much range and 1900/1500 range also being able to make it unblockable and combo'd with a stun... That doesnt need a nerf even .

    Axe ambush - needs a condi tonedown.

    Still a mistake?:>

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Updated with some suggestions by Odik:
    Elusive mind, Self-Deception, Illusionary leap, Illusionary wave, evasive mirror, Imaginary axes, false oasis, mass invisibility.
    Updated with mass invisibility suggestion by mortrialus.

    I havent found most important QoL : ambush cast time to match MC . You literally naked 50% of its cast

    Confusing Images - Either make scepter condi or power and nerf taking it into account or nerf both a little.

    Looking at stupid rapid fire for 25-30k in pvp... twice as much range and 1900/1500 range also being able to make it unblockable and combo'd with a stun... That doesnt need a nerf even .

    Axe ambush - needs a condi tonedown.

    Still a mistake?:>

    The ambush matching mc is there.
    "Ambushes: reduce cast time on ambushes so they can fit inside or closer to the mirage cloak uptime. (.75 MC taked into account)"

    The axe ambush and scepter ones are mentioned above:

    "...and the right things to nerf (If 05/03 patch didn't exist or if you revert everything you could have done/do it this way)"

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Updated with some suggestions by Odik:
    Elusive mind, Self-Deception, Illusionary leap, Illusionary wave, evasive mirror, Imaginary axes, false oasis, mass invisibility.
    Updated with mass invisibility suggestion by mortrialus.

    I havent found most important QoL : ambush cast time to match MC . You literally naked 50% of its cast

    Confusing Images - Either make scepter condi or power and nerf taking it into account or nerf both a little.

    Looking at stupid rapid fire for 25-30k in pvp... twice as much range and 1900/1500 range also being able to make it unblockable and combo'd with a stun... That doesnt need a nerf even .

    Axe ambush - needs a condi tonedown.

    Still a mistake?:>

    The ambush matching mc is there.
    "Ambushes: reduce cast time on ambushes so they can fit inside or closer to the mirage cloak uptime. (.75 MC taked into account)"

    The axe ambush and scepter ones are mentioned above:

    "...and the right things to nerf (If 05/03 patch didn't exist or if you revert everything you could have done/do it this way)"

    OK but you can also change that in OP...
    Also feel free to add : remove dumb requierment to look at your target to cast skill,thats most dumb kitten. Many many many skills can be casted behind himself
    (Even tho this wont help to make it somewhat good anyway )

  • As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

    The hell does "all boons in the game" have to do with mesmer?

    // Yanim

  • @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

    The hell does "all boons in the game" have to do with mesmer?

    To my knowledge, Mesmer's kit is the most broad in terms of boon application. The class has several abilities and traits that can apply almost any boon in the game, so it would make sense for the stolen item to play off the mass boon application theme.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

    The hell does "all boons in the game" have to do with mesmer?

    To my knowledge, Mesmer's kit is the most broad in terms of boon application. The class has several abilities and traits that can apply almost any boon in the game, so it would make sense for the stolen item to play off the mass boon application theme.

    That is basically just bountiful disillusionment + chrono + maybe CI, is it not? None of these were present in 2012 when plasma was added. And even then, fb, elixir engi, ranger, ele all compete or surpass mesmer in terms of boons. Problem with these classes in PvE is that quickness and alacrity are disproportionately good in a game where dps is so overvalued.

    Mesmer wasn't seen as a boon-heavy class before HoT and core mesmer still shouldn't (for example there are no utilities on mesmer that give boons except for mantra of concentration). Certainly not "mass boon application". To me, the tooltip icon is basically the main reason why it fits mesmer.

    // Yanim

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

    The hell does "all boons in the game" have to do with mesmer?

    To my knowledge, Mesmer's kit is the most broad in terms of boon application. The class has several abilities and traits that can apply almost any boon in the game, so it would make sense for the stolen item to play off the mass boon application theme.

    Plasma been since release. What it has to do with mesmer boon application once again ?
    Chrono bunker that can do it with chaos? What about firebrands that solely apply every boon and 25 might stacks and only thing they cant is alacrity ,may be they should add 'consume plasma' from guardians now ?
    Most of stolen skills are pretty much useless againt classes who got stolen

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 29, 2019

    @Odik.4587 said:

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @Invictorum.7643 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    @Mydnyght.5026 said:
    As a power mesmer I'd say remove the plasma steal from thieves to start with, they already have enough mechanic to hunt mesmers.

    I agree, plasma is one of the most kitten things in game, it's absolutely disgusting.
    Guess it is the perks of being the "favorite child" to have the most unfair fight on game.

    I suggested to remove plasma on some pvp threads but this one is about buffs/nerfs on mesmer.

    What would you replace it with then? Every steal skill has something to do with whatever you fight.

    The hell does "all boons in the game" have to do with mesmer?

    To my knowledge, Mesmer's kit is the most broad in terms of boon application. The class has several abilities and traits that can apply almost any boon in the game, so it would make sense for the stolen item to play off the mass boon application theme.

    Plasma been since release. What it has to do with mesmer boon application once again ?
    Chrono bunker that can do it with chaos? What about firebrands that solely apply every boon and 25 might stacks and only thing they cant is alacrity ,may be they should add 'consume plasma' from guardians now ?
    Most of stolen skills are pretty much useless againt classes who got stolen

    Yeah why is guard stolen skill a daze and mesmer is a boons, if anything it should be the opposite.

    And engi stolen skill is etheral field + inflict random condition. That sounds like quintessential mesmer if you ask me.

    // Yanim

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