Adrenaline depletion is not balanced for PvP and WvW. Math proof...

3 bars of adrenaline deplete in about 13 seconds. However, gaining 3 bars of adrenaline requires:

• 30 hits because each hit gives 1 adrenaline; if the target is stationary that is equivalent to 25 sec using great sword auto attacks. Thus, if the target is stationary, the rate of adrenaline gain is about 1.2 adr/sec
• Using Signet of Rage, 3 bars of adrenaline are filled in 45 seconds. Thus, the rate of adrenaline gain is 0.66 adr/sec
• Using Versatile Rage, 3 bars of adrenaline are filled in 30 seconds. Thus, the rate of adrenaline gain is about 1 adr/sec

The most common warrior build has signet of rage and Discipline, the total rate of adrenaline gain against a stationary target is about 2.86 adr/sec This is a reasonable number for stationary targets like NPCs. However, for human players, the rate of adrenaline gain depends on the number of hits you connect and the total adrenaline gain rate will be lower.Against a human player, you need to connect 30 hits to fill 3 bars of adrenaline (good luck doing that). In a 1 vs 1 scenario against a competent player, you could connect 30 hits in about 2 minutes or more if you are pure melee.

So, against human players the adrenaline per second is going to be about 2 adr/ sec or lower. This means that 3 bars of adrenaline are filled in about 15 seconds.HOWEVER, here comes the unbalanced thing and perhaps something that developers did not consider:

• Bursts count as 1,2 or 3 adrenaline bars. If you have 2.5 adrenaline bar and use the burst, then your 2.5 adrenaline bar only count as 2 bars and the rest of the adrenaline is lost.
• The 0.5 bar adrenaline lost is equivalent to 5 sec of game play.

So, for competitive game modes, adrenaline needs to deplete at a much lower rate. The most reasonable adrenaline depletion should be -1.66 adr/sec or -30 adr/18 sec to cancel the passive adrenaline gain from signet of rage and weapon swapping.

The current adrenaline depletion is -2.3 adr/sec this is way to much for WvW and PvP.

Now, you could do a more elaborate game code to check the rate of adrenaline gain depending on the warrior build and then implement a reasonable adrenaline depletion based on how fast warrior can gain adrenaline on the build because if the warrior is not using signet of rage and versatile rage, then a fixed adrenaline depletion is going to be unbalanced.

For example:If the warrior is using only a build that gains adrenaline on hit, then the adrenaline depletion should be 30 adr/120 sec or 0.25 adr/sec in competitive modes. OR Anet could go a step further and implement a computer code that records the exact time the warrior requires to obtain 3 bars of adrenaline and make the adrenaline deplete at the exact same time rate as it was gained.

The current adrenaline depletion they have is very punishing because it depletes adrenaline at a very fast rate, faster than the rate at which you gain it.

EDIT

So, guys as you know the warrior was reworked and now we lost out F1 core abilities. We are now forced to fill 3 adrenaline bars which require 30 hits Or the use of special skills that grant adreanaline on use.

Now it is an even bigger problem because if adrenaline starts to deplete while on berserker you are not going to be able to use your F1 until you fill in 10 adrenaline. One way I have coped with this problem is by using "To the limit" , "signet of furry" and "berserker stance", however, there are times when the enemy disengages from combat and my adrenaline starts to deplete immediately, then the enemy attacks me again and I am left with berserker stance with 0 adrenaline.

Anet once again manages to screw us over.

The reason why they nerfed adrenaline is because ANET allowed hambow back in the day to happen when berserker stance first came out. Warrior was really strong when this hambow build back in 2013 was the meta. So their solution was making it so your adrenaline goes down after combat. The problem with this change is that it's a target nerf for long bow F1 and hammer F1, every other adrenaline skill was essentially gutted at that point. A different nerf could've happened tbh (such as healing signet not healing so much and making Warrior heals active instead of passive), but they went with a really stupid change for whatever reason.

But like it's whatever, I'll be happy if adrenaline goes down after 15 seconds when out of combat, not immediately after combat. Gives you time to rotate in sPvP at least. Seriously who gets hit by Eviscerate nowadays. Full counter already nerfed and dagger F1 isn't even that hard hitting. Arcing slice is strong, sure. But at least it isn't instant cast and it's only really a threat below 50% hp.

This again...

There is no need for a change. Easy enough to get adrenaline.

With an off-hand Axe, GS, Axe main hand, and dagger? Sure. But with mace, long bow, and hammer? Good luck.

But like it's fine w/e don't need to change the adrenaline depletion after OOC, there's alternative fixes like for example Mace 2 gives 1 bar of adrenaline if cancelled early, Hammer auto-attack gives x3 adrenaline and do the same for longbow.

@BlackTruth.6813 said:The reason why they nerfed adrenaline is because ANET allowed hambow back in the day to happen when berserker stance first came out. Warrior was really strong when this hambow build back in 2013 was the meta. So their solution was making it so your adrenaline goes down after combat. The problem with this change is that it's a target nerf for long bow F1 and hammer F1, every other adrenaline skill was essentially gutted at that point. A different nerf could've happened tbh (such as healing signet not healing so much and making Warrior heals active instead of passive), but they went with a really stupid change for whatever reason.

But like it's whatever, I'll be happy if adrenaline goes down after 15 seconds when out of combat, not immediately after combat. Gives you time to rotate in sPvP at least. Seriously who gets hit by Eviscerate nowadays. Full counter already nerfed and dagger F1 isn't even that hard hitting. Arcing slice is strong, sure. But at least it isn't instant cast and it's only really a threat below 50% hp.

Pretty much this.My biggest gripe with the way Guild Wars 2 is balanced is the fact that we very rarely see old nerfs reverted no matter much the meta game has changed due to expansion powercreep, no matter how punishing those nerfs turned out to be years later.Warrior is a prime example of such nerfs happening to a few of the old builds. Hambow, Shoutbow and pretty much any Berserker variants haven't really be seen after they got nerfed harshly. Some of them wouldn't work against the current builds even if they hadn't been nerfed given how overblown things have become over the years.

I agree, some of those old nerfs need to be undone or even buffed to be even competing with anything current, and I am speaking for all classes.

So, guys as you know the warrior was reworked and now we lost out F1 core abilities. We are now forced to fill 3 adrenaline bars which require 30 hits Or the use of special skills that grant adreanaline on use.

Now it is an even bigger problem because if adrenaline starts to deplete while on berserker you are not going to be able to use your F1 until you fill in 10 adrenaline. One way I have coped with this problem is by using "To the limit" , "signet of furry" and "berserker stance", however, there are times when the enemy disengages from combat and my adrenaline starts to deplete immediately, then the enemy attacks me again and I am left with berserker stance with 0 adrenaline.

Anet once again manages to screw us over.

Using a traited axe increase tremendously your rage gen. Traiting furious into arms also benefit adrenaline generation. It's obvious that there are in game options for this "issue" that don't seem to be taken into consideration in this "mathematic proof". Fortunately, going into arms also improve critical chance.

@BlackTruth.6813 said:The reason why they nerfed adrenaline is because ANET allowed hambow back in the day to happen when berserker stance first came out. Warrior was really strong when this hambow build back in 2013 was the meta. So their solution was making it so your adrenaline goes down after combat. The problem with this change is that it's a target nerf for long bow F1 and hammer F1, every other adrenaline skill was essentially gutted at that point. A different nerf could've happened tbh (such as healing signet not healing so much and making Warrior heals active instead of passive), but they went with a really stupid change for whatever reason.

But like it's whatever, I'll be happy if adrenaline goes down after 15 seconds when out of combat, not immediately after combat. Gives you time to rotate in sPvP at least. Seriously who gets hit by Eviscerate nowadays. Full counter already nerfed and dagger F1 isn't even that hard hitting. Arcing slice is strong, sure. But at least it isn't instant cast and it's only really a threat below 50% hp.

It was more than that. Berserker's power used to be a persistent dmg increase based on adrenaline bars and Heightened Focus was a persistent crit chance increase based on adrenaline bars. You used to be able to run all over a map with your adrenaline never dropping below 2 bars with a constant DPS boost. Naturally Thieves in pvp wined on the forum about this along with your comments above and the Warrior core mechanic got a huge 'update.' I'm not going to call it a nerf, promoting more active gameplay was probably for the better, but I do remember being despondent about it and stepped away from the game for a while.

I'm fine with Berserker's Power now, but I want the old Heightened Focus back. I also wouldn't mind if the adrenaline decay didn't start so soon after you get out of combat, or if it decayed a little slower.

I don't have problems gaining adrenaline when I need it. There are healing skills, utility skills, elite skills, and traits for that. Can't expect your core mechanic to not suck if you don't spec for using it properly. If you are getting kited, then use a gap closer or pull out a rifle and Volley them.

But, seeing as Thieves were so successful in the past with their QQ, go on and QQ until we get some nerfs unnerfed. It'll just make my job killing in WvW easier.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Using a traited axe increase tremendously your rage gen. Traiting furious into arms also benefit adrenaline generation. It's obvious that there are in game options for this "issue" that don't seem to be taken into consideration in this "mathematic proof". Fortunately, going into arms also improve critical chance.

Did you not read the post? The post clearly references the passive adrenaline gain Vs Adrenaline depletion. The mathematical proof shows that the rate adrenaline depletes while out of combat is much much greater than the rate at which you gain it.

I even calculated the RATE of adrenaline gain and depletion for comparison. Why don't people ever read the posts, it is as if they just want to start an argument just to troll.I even took the time to include fast hands passive adrenaline gain and this is how you pay me? with a straw man fallacy?

With traits and skills that grant adrenaline, adrenaline depletion is not that big of a problem, HOWEVER, it is still a problem for builds that do not have adrenaline gain because as you know once adrenaline depletes, it is depleted fast at an approximate rate of -2.3 adr/sec.

@Hitman.5829 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Using a traited axe increase tremendously your rage gen. Traiting

furious

into arms also benefit adrenaline generation. It's obvious that there are in game options for this "issue" that don't seem to be taken into consideration in this "mathematic proof". Fortunately, going into arms also improve critical chance.

If you're gonna take into account adrenaline coming from skills, it's a given that you should take into account adrenaline from trait. Versatile rage being a trait after all and not so passive, since it require weapon swap, I'm thinking that I "pay you" just right.

It's not "a problem", it's anyone choice to either build for adrenaline or not, there are plenty of trait and abilities on the warrior that don't require adrenaline to work.

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Using a traited axe increase tremendously your rage gen. Traiting

furious

into arms also benefit adrenaline generation. It's obvious that there are in game options for this "issue" that don't seem to be taken into consideration in this "mathematic proof". Fortunately, going into arms also improve critical chance.

What? that's gotta be the most ridiculous thing I heard on the forums. Do you even play warrior? Do you know that Warrior's main theme is adrenaline and burst skills?I am discussing adrenaline depletion and you bring up traits that don't require adrenaline. That is one pathetic red herring fallacy.

Topic A is being discussed, but you manage to discuss topic B.Its like someone brings up for discussion the origins of the universe, and then you come up with a discussion about the size of the universe.

Stay on topic!

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Hitman.5829 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Using a traited axe increase tremendously your rage gen. Traiting

furious

into arms also benefit adrenaline generation. It's obvious that there are in game options for this "issue" that don't seem to be taken into consideration in this "mathematic proof". Fortunately, going into arms also improve critical chance.

Discussing a single part of a class in a vacuum makes little to no sense, despite of what so many people on this subforum try to claim. Main theme of the class or not (still arguable), the adrenaline skills aren't supposed to be available out of nowhere any time you dream it and spammable for however long you want them to be. Just because someone includes other parts of the class, doesn't automatically make it irrelevant just because the argument doesn't support what you said.

Topic is: "balance of adrenaline gain/decay is wrong."

My answer was: "there are already core traits that help with that."

It trigger you for no real reason and you say: "traits don't count" while you shamelessly take into account a trait and a skill into your maths. I point it out and your telling me that I'm not on topic?

So let's be clear, if you're gonna complain about adrenaline generation on warrior you have to take into account every warrior abilities that build adrenaline into your "maths" not just a few. By your own definition, both versatile rage and signet of rage shouldn't be taken into account into your "maths" because those are simply optionnal, those are thing that you take when you make your build.

Your whole premise is that the warrior take discipline as a traitline, somehow swap weapon every 5 seconds and equip signet of rage, which mean there is already the skeleton of a build. So if I'm not on topic when I say that you can build for it, your thread isn't on topic either which would be a stupid concept since the thread is the topic.

@Hitman.5829

They got you on the inconsistency mate. Just factor it into your maths and see how it compares. Otherwise Anet will just file your maths into the circular bin.

I do agree with you though that the rate of adrenaline gain, or how long it takes before decay starts probably needs to be tweaked now, but not necessarily both.

@"Hitman.5829" said:"signet of furry"Ain't gonna lie, signet of furry turned me into the most powerful Charr berserker in all of WvW

@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"Hitman.5829" said:"signet of furry"Ain't gonna lie, signet of furry turned me into the most powerful Charr berserker in all of WvW

It is useful. Even better with Signet Mastery.

The current adrenaline depletion they have is very punishing because it depletes adrenaline at a very fast rate, faster than the rate at which you gain it.

Claiming that adrenaline depletion is not balanced because it can deplet faster than it's gained is a flawed base for this claim in the first place btw.Also I'm not sure why you're so bent over counting just the 'passive'/on-hit adrenaline gain? Do you mean they should make a different adrenaline depletion rates for different builds? Who said one has to be related to the other?

Bursts count as 1,2 or 3 adrenaline bars. If you have 2.5 adrenaline bar and use the burst, then your 2.5 adrenaline bar only count as 2 bars and the rest of the adrenaline is lost.The 0.5 bar adrenaline lost is equivalent to 5 sec of game play.[...]If the warrior is using only a build that gains adrenaline on hit

If someone wastes his resources or uses a terrible build then it's in no way basis for claiming something needs to be buffed to nullify that, it's your own choice.

Your whole claim is just one big "because I said so!".

@Hitman.5829

Warrior has tons of traits and skills to aid in adrenaline gain, like how the necro has tons of traits and skills to aid in life force generation. If you are going to do this shoddy math, then include with various builds focusing on the numerous traits or utility skills that aid in adrenaline gain. Otherwise you're spitting in the wind and making a fool of yourself. For instance, Arms + Discipline with Furious + axe mastery. With 100% crit chance (because you do have 100% right?) that is 4 adrenaline on hit with an axe. Cyclone Axe and Dual Strike both hit twice and multiple targets. If you are unable to maintain high amounts of adrenaline in that case, then you aren't hitting anything. Go reroll a Soulbeast in that case.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:@Hitman.5829

Warrior has tons of traits and skills to aid in adrenaline gain, like how the necro has tons of traits and skills to aid in life force generation. If you are going to do this shoddy math, then include with various builds focusing on the numerous traits or utility skills that aid in adrenaline gain. Otherwise you're spitting in the wind and making a fool of yourself. For instance, Arms + Discipline with Furious + axe mastery. With 100% crit chance (because you do have 100% right?) that is 4 adrenaline on hit with an axe. Cyclone Axe and Dual Strike both hit twice and multiple targets. If you are unable to maintain high amounts of adrenaline in that case, then you aren't hitting anything. Go reroll a Soulbeast in that case.

ONCE AGAIN:The discussion is about passive adrenaline gain and the fast depletion of adrenaline.

@"Hitman.5829" said:Do you understand what passive adrenaline gain means?Using a shout to gain adrenaline is not passive.

Using shout to gain adrenaline is as passive as swaping weapon.

Stop trolling my post and first learn what its meant by "passive."

Gaining adrenaline on hit is not passive, you or the enemy has to perform an action to make you gain adrenaline on hit.I thought this was obvious, but apparently it is not.

I also thought that swaping weapon wasn't something that is done passively but somehow it is for you.

I am not "trolling" your post, I'm just pointing out that the foundation of your post are wrong which can only lead to an empty depreciation of the warrior.

@Hitman.5829

And what each of us is telling you is that all you are doing is spitting into the wind as far as Anet is concerned because they have offered numerous tools to increase adrenaline gain. If you are trying to make an argument that passive gain should be increased, then you need to take these numerous tools into account because if you come up with numbers that indicate that warriors have no problem maintaining adrenaline then I can tell you Anet already beat you there and concluded that all the ways that warrior can gain adrenaline justify the base regen/decay rates.

I think you may have a better argument talking about who quickly it begins to decay once out of combat.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:@Hitman.5829

And what each of us is telling you is that all you are doing is spitting into the wind as far as Anet is concerned because they have offered numerous tools to increase adrenaline gain. If you are trying to make an argument that passive gain should be increased, then you need to take these numerous tools into account because if you come up with numbers that indicate that warriors have no problem maintaining adrenaline then I can tell you Anet already beat you there and concluded that all the ways that warrior can gain adrenaline justify the base regen/decay rates.

And how many of those tools are actually used in actual builds? Not trolling, genuine question. Because to me it seems that not to many do

@kasoki.5180 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:@"Hitman.5829"

And what each of us is telling you is that all you are doing is spitting into the wind as far as Anet is concerned because they have offered numerous tools to increase adrenaline gain. If you are trying to make an argument that passive gain should be increased, then you need to take these numerous tools into account because if you come up with numbers that indicate that warriors have no problem maintaining adrenaline then I can tell you Anet already beat you there and concluded that all the ways that warrior can gain adrenaline justify the base regen/decay rates.

Berserker in raids and WvW at least use Blood Reckoning, Headbutt, and/or "To The Limit!" to fuel their bursts. Some others use Berserker's Stance or Signet of Fury. There was one guy, I forget who, that was raving about Opportunist from Arms (I prefer to take Signet Mastery myself). Disc gives you +5 adrenaline on weapon swap by default. Burst Mastery gives you a refund, and non axe users who use Disc take that usually. Axe Mastery itself gives +2 adrenaline on a crit with Axe, and if you run axes you run Axe Mastery. Cleansing Ire builds adrenaline upon getting hit in addition to the condi cleanse when hitting with a burst and people take that often. A fair number of the 'tools' are tied into other functions, so many of them get taken along for the ride.

It's actually hard to not have good adrenaline upkeep if you run Discipline, and most warriors run Discipline because it is 2019 and Fast Hands is not baseline yet. And none of this brings in cleaving and hitting multiple enemies at once, or multi hit/fast attacks.

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@kasoki.5180 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:@"Hitman.5829"

And what each of us is telling you is that all you are doing is spitting into the wind as far as Anet is concerned because they have offered numerous tools to increase adrenaline gain. If you are trying to make an argument that passive gain should be increased, then you need to take these numerous tools into account because if you come up with numbers that indicate that warriors have no problem maintaining adrenaline then I can tell you Anet already beat you there and concluded that all the ways that warrior can gain adrenaline justify the base regen/decay rates.

This post is about adrenaline depletion for WvW and PvP do you even read the title?For PvE content adrenaline is not the issue, but for competitive game modes it is, because adrenaline is tightly linked to how many hits we connect. We need 30 hits to fill 1 full adrenaline bar. In large scale fights where blobs constantly disengage because of pirate ship BS, the warrior is constantly losing adrenaline and we never use burst upon engaging. The burst are used about 3 - 5 sec after engaging in combat (in large scale fights) and you need to trait for that.