What path should GW2 follow? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What path should GW2 follow?

Greetings,

It is no secret that ArenaNet is facing massive layoffs and it is a tough time for the company as a whole. Maybe it is time to ask ourselves why. Tough times are best to study ourselves and analyze our path. Do it differently. It is an opportunity for change and growth.

What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't? If you wanna know my opinion, it is PvP incentive. Most popular games of this time revolve around PvP in the format of MOBAs or Battle Royale of some sort. I'm not saying GW2 should be like that, it has it's own different niche and it can be very popular at that. PvP is never the same, doesn't matter how many times you play it, because it is a human versus another human things can always go either way. PvE is not like that and that is why (in my humble opinion) it doesn't make games popular. ArenaNet has neglected PvP for far too long and it is hard to understand why, since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success.

In my opinion, in order to improve the game, balance must be seeken and gameplay must be directed to the most fun and skill reliant way possible. This is what provides a game its future. ArenaNet should move a much larger effort into a stronger balance and pvp team in order to provide best and more entertaining content.

Marketing is also an issue. Most of the people I know, even in the gaming community have never heard of GW2, which is a surprise, considering it is such an amazing game.

What is your take? I want to know what do you think that drove GW2 down this path? What could we change in order to ensure our beloved game goes back to the top?

Try to keep it constructive.

Comments

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 6, 2019

    Huh, self reflection? I mean if you believe things on GlassDoor (I usually take anonymous posts with lots of salt) then it'd be cross team communication, and maybe leadership. Although management is always a typical complaint in most companies. I don't really care to lecture a company on its internal politics if I have no tangible insight. As for the game, WvW needs firm direction (coincidentally related to that leadership issue), and Ben has been doing a decent job appearing on the Spvp side. However that isn't an esports dream anymore. Both of those modes will eternally complain about balance of course.

    I definitely agree on the marketing issue. The Warclaw trailer made Wvw look empty to me. I get they're showing off a mount, but at least throw in a few players to fling a fireball or two. It's not all just npcs and gates...I think.

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  • @Sorem.9157 said:

    What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't? If you wanna know my opinion, it is PvP incentive. Most popular games of this time revolve around PvP in the format of MOBAs or Battle Royale of some sort. I'm not saying GW2 should be like that, it has it's own different niche and it can be very popular at that. PvP is never the same, doesn't matter how many times you play it, because it is a human versus another human things can always go either way. PvE is not like that and that is why (in my humble opinion) it doesn't make games popular. ArenaNet has neglected PvP for far too long and it is hard to understand why, since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success.

    I'm going to be honest, the thing GW2 lacks that makes the game "diminishing" as you said, would be resources. Please allow me a brief digression to explain this:

    I had a friend that I managed to finally entice to play GW2 for the first time. He was an ex-WoW and ex-Final Fantasy XIV player, and spent most of his playtime on the former. After having played this game for about 100 hours he noted that the volume of our content was rather shallow. He enjoyed the quality of it, the writing, and the feel of the game, but using his words "Your expansions just feel so small compared to what I'm used to,".

    His experiences with our in-game store were also a source of frustration due to the fact that he was prone to overspending and was aware of the artificial scarcity produced by the marketing structure used. This is referring to the fact that not 100% of the items on the gemstore are available 100% of the time, thus limiting the shopping window to produce a sense of "missing out" on the items for weeks or months until they return. This is where I'm going to bring it back.

    Money. The 3rd quarter of 2017 made GW2 a large percentage of its profits for that year. The Path of Fire expansion is what caused that huge bump in profits, obviously. In the months after expansions hit profits go on a steady decline. The only thing left is the gemstore. To me, this is a very weak strategy that hinges on the notion that various cosmetics/quality of life upgrades will be enough to keep profits in whatever ranges NCsoft wants them to be.

    I've been a Guild Wars player since the moment I joined the game in 2007. From then on, I have enjoyed over ten years of the studio's games. However, after having witnessed the layoffs with the rest of the community I think it's time I realize something. I know that if offered, I would pay a premium subscription fee for this game. It would NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE extremely bare bones in order to not retroactively sting the people who have spent crazy amounts on the gemstore, something like a flat stipend of 1000 gems per month or something similar. Maybe throw in another one of those 1 day celebration boosters at the start of every week, who knows, something! If I'm not mistaken Elder Scrolls Online has something similar after they removed their mandatory subscription fee, and they have some other rewards that go along with having been a subscriber over a longer period of time... But ArenaNet needs money more than anything else, and a $10 (U.S.) sub fee - to me - is worth providing if it means I can see more content over the long run.

    TL;DR. I am invested enough in this game's success and the enjoyment I get from it that I would pay for a bare-bones sub fee if it meant getting a higher volume of content.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • @Sorem.9157 said:
    What is your take? I want to know what do you think that drove GW2 down this path? What could we change in order to ensure our beloved game goes back to the top?

    Try to keep it constructive.

    To me the main culprit is bad writing.
    GW2 writing is a textbook example of the "WoW without a soul" syndrome, constantly tries to feed you the "howdy brave hero, much thanks for save the world" kind of dialogue. Not much to chew on, just boring. MMOs need more originality in their worlds and lore. If they try to catter to biggest audience possible it will always makes their world boring.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @RevanCorana.8942 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    What is your take? I want to know what do you think that drove GW2 down this path? What could we change in order to ensure our beloved game goes back to the top?

    Try to keep it constructive.

    To me the main culprit is bad writing.
    GW2 writing is a textbook example of the "WoW without a soul" syndrome, constantly tries to feed you the "howdy brave hero, much thanks for save the world" kind of dialogue. Not much to chew on, just boring. MMOs need more originality in their worlds and lore. If they try to catter to biggest audience possible it will always makes their world boring.

    I have to disagree with you on this one.

    WoW narrative team could learn so much from GW2. If there is one aspect where GW2 shines compared to other MMOs its the story and the role of you personally in it. In WoW I always feel like a glorified bodyguard who is simply witnessing story of others while in GW2 I am actually a hero. Not to mention how WoW is at this point basically plagiarism of Lovecraft and recycle of previous expansions.

    Though I will admit that WoW has great narrative mechanics nowdays. More engaging story, many cutscenes and cinematics, dialogue bar etc...

    IMO, the core problem of GW is lack of meaningful content that comes up on steady basis. Everytime I hear someone talking about GW who is ESO or WoW player they say the same thing: Its the lack of depth prevents people from sticking.

    Lack of communication and marketing is also another. There are many things that are "out there" but we don't know their status. Like new and upcoming PvE content, new PvP modes like 2v2, reform to underwater content, status of future exansion etc etc

  • Erasculio.2914Erasculio.2914 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success

    This is a big flaw in your argument; ArenaNet themselves said they were surprised by how many people were playing GW's PvE. Just see how much more ArenaNet invested in PvE than in PvP in that game.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, now it's too late. ArenaNet is not going to be able to get a huge surge of new PvP players into a 2012 game from a dying genre.

    How about some anti eyes bleeding options? Here's the direct link to the concept.

  • Sorem.9157Sorem.9157 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Erasculio.2914 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success

    This is a big flaw in your argument; ArenaNet themselves said they were surprised by how many people were playing GW's PvE. Just see how much more ArenaNet invested in PvE than in PvP in that game.

    As far as GW2 is concerned, now it's too late. ArenaNet is not going to be able to get a huge surge of new PvP players into a 2012 game from a dying genre.

    So what would it take to improve GW2, in your opinion? Is it beyond any hope?

    PS: If i read they are surprised by the amount of people playing GW PvE to me that says that they didn't invest much in it and it turned out a success either way. Doesn't change the fact that that GW is known for it's PvP though.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    I had a friend that I managed to finally entice to play GW2 for the first time. He was an ex-WoW and ex-Final Fantasy XIV player, and spent most of his playtime on the former. After having played this game for about 100 hours he noted that the volume of our content was rather shallow. He enjoyed the quality of it, the writing, and the feel of the game, but using his words "Your expansions just feel so small compared to what I'm used to,".

    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta, manipulative "gear treadmill" designs invalidating all previous content... they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it. It's nothing but a tease, and people fall for that; I guess some people just need to be exploited.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Omernon.9762Omernon.9762 Member ✭✭
    edited March 10, 2019

    @Erasculio.2914 It’s not a dying genre. It is over saturated with poorly made games genre, which is now in recession since the bubble bursted few years ago. Yet there are still over 30 million players amongst top 5 MMORPGs and all of them are on average spending way more cash on their games than your average Battle Royal or MOBA player. Reasons are many, but the average player age and higher than usual costs of playing are the main ones.

    I would also like to know what shallow gameplay/content means. I’m Guild Wars veteran, but also a WoW veteran. With both series I’ve been since their early days and while the later is getting worse with every expansion, the former is getting better with each passing year. The reason why it is that might be this so called shallow content some people mentioned, which prevents new content from annihilating the old one. Game development costs are rising, especially when global expectations are that the games keep getting visually more attractive, often at the cost of gameplay and content value. Therefore you can clearly see that World of Warcraft is getting even smaller with every expansion. It happens because every time level bar gets raised, most of the old content gets neglected by both developers and players. It is a giant with feet of clay and no wonder why they’ve decided to release WoW Classic.

    Back on topic:
    I would say that revamping core areas, adding more QoL improvements and bringing community even closer should be their main focus for the future updates. Beyond that we really need a new expansion, new huge area to explore, new enemies and threats to battle and overcome. Basically it will get across message that something cool is happening in the world of Guild Wars and new players will flock here again. Cantha would be awesome pick for their next expansion.

    Last but not least PvP mode in all formats is in need of small, but meaningful improvements. Adding mount to WvW was a good choice, because it showed people that ANet still cares about this mode. Improvements like these from time to time is what I want to see.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭

    Ex wow player here (played on and off since burning crusade)

    Obviously i am new on GW2 so.... not fully educated opinion

    Things i prefer about GW2 -

    Playerbase- much friendlier it seems, people res you! even when my newbie self kept getting killed on a boss
    Less go kill ten frogs quests.... they disguise it better
    No sub
    Artwork
    I know some consider it cheese, but im enjoying personal story

    Things wow does better

    Its a close one but i think story in some wow zones is more compelling, some of the wrath quests were brill too...
    When you buy wow you get all content upto last ex pack
    PVP- I loved arathi basin etc, here- after reading the GW2 pvp forums i am terrified of stepping into pvp as a noob
    Right now my wow rogue combat feels more alive/fluid but i think thats because i am so clumsy still

    As for what GW2 should do?...xpac in my opinion.

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    Don't be afraid to jump in pvp pick something easy to play and its viable and learn the Circle quest. PvP here is better then WoW for one (many people haven't tried other MMOs to see how good we have it here) but there are some outlier stuff that are borked. Expect to be yelled at if you mess up or don't mess up (there are some guys that don't want to admit that they are bad and blame others) like any other pvp game. We are kinda salty cause the circle dance got stale long time ago and we want arenas in quickplay.

  • spectrito.8513spectrito.8513 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    Gw2 combat is one of the best of the genre(despite balance)
    But there's only 2 pvp modes
    A 5v5 where the main objective is to hold a point
    and a 50vs50 where the main objetive is to capture keeps (fyi roaming is dead for quite a while only got worse since alliance announcement)
    There's no middleground and no focus on PvP itself
    I would suggest something but you just need to read the game's name.

    Edit : word

  • But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta, manipulative "gear treadmill" designs invalidating all previous content... they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it. It's nothing but a tease, and people fall for that; I guess some people just need to be exploited.

    Man, you gotta understand, I was trying to convey the same thing you just said above to him. Not in the same words, but conveying 100% of the information you just wrote there. I told him in no uncertain terms that I felt that games with a gear treadmill were essentially artificially generating progress. It only turned into "big number kitten" as I called it. "Oh boy, I can hit 5k on a hit instead of 4k," or something to varying degrees of that. That, in essence, nothing effectively changed except that you slowly floated to a comparable level of damage that had now become the new benchmark. If anything has done that in GW2 it's been the elite specializations, but that's a discussion for another time.

    Let me come at it from a different perspective. To further flesh out my buddy's feelings I'll talk about what he enjoyed specifically about the old treadmill. (Please note, I'm not attempting to advocate for it as a surrogate, but just hear me out)

    He's definitely a power gamer in the sense that he enjoys gear progression. Fair enough. One day he got on and told me he managed to get an ascended greatsword. Cool, I thought. However, his perspective was "So... what you're saying is, this is just as good as legendary gear in terms of stats? If I just kept playing a zerker variant warrior, I'll never really need to replace this?"

    … Basically yeah.

    I told him about the quality of life a legendary has over ascended, rune/attribute swapping sans penalty, but he was rather nonplussed by it. To him, he hoped legendary would be... legendary. Superior to everything else in slot. No amount of quality of life was going to change his playstyle and I did everything I could to make him look at it from a different perspective, but in the end it didn't take. Something else, entirely unrelated to the games gearing model made him quit, but that probably didn't help. Again, the actual experience of combat didn't take away from the game, but I wonder what can be done to reach out to more people while still allowing this to feel unique and fresh.

    YO I'm gonna split this if you don't mind, bc there's something else I want to address.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    Maybe it is time to ask ourselves why. Tough times are best to study ourselves and analyze our path.

    What we are sure of is that it's not because of Guild Wars 2 itself but other projects that Arenanet was working on. Tough times for the company, but not the game.

    PvE is not like that and that is why (in my humble opinion) it doesn't make games popular.

    PvE is what makes MMORPGs popular. Just take a look at the most successful MMORPGs they have very little focus on PVP, and for many, the PVP "servers" are rotting and bleeding players while the PVE servers are doing well.

    ArenaNet has neglected PvP for far too long and it is hard to understand why, since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success.

    GW1 started as a game focused on PVP yes, but eventually it shifted focus because the company figured that more players are interested in PVE than PVP. Nightfall first had a huge focus on PVE, with Heroes, PVE-only skills and abilities, and Eye of the North was a mostly PVE focused experience bringing loads of PVE-only skills, a great number of dungeons, unseen in the game up to that point. Further, after Factions, they didn't add any meaningful PVP modes to the game again, Hero battles that came with Nightfall was a disaster that was eventually removed. A company shifting from PVP-focused to PVE-focused and doing MUCH better after the change, means the "main reason" for GW1 success wasn't PVP. It became better and more popular when it stopped being a PVP-focused game.

    I want to know what do you think that drove GW2 down this path?

    All I can say is that those "side projects" were taking too many resources. On one hand I want to see what they were working on and if it was worth it, but on the other hand I want them to focus more on Guild Wars 2 and now that those other projects were cancelled perhaps they'll spend more resources on this game. The problem with the game is the bad release schedule, and even though releases are slow, they are still buggy, or are released in an unfinished state (looking at Kourna here)

    Further, we have no information on what's coming in the future. What to expect and to hope for. And I'm not talking about what's coming next week or month, but further down the line. A roadmap of 2019 if you will.

  • Kraljevo.2801Kraljevo.2801 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 15, 2019

    The game needs good content with a replay value, be it instanced or open world. It's really no rocket science.

    • Create new dungeons with 3 paths (just like before) that offer armor and weapon skins as rewards. Normal and Hard mode. Hard mode gives increased gold and token rewards.
    • Solo and group arenas with a normal and hard mode
    • New pvp game mode. People are bored of conquest.
    • More open world maps like jahai bluffs or the HoT maps which give you reasons to go back and replay.
    • Give people a reason to win and do well/be active in WvW. Weekly rewards for the server can't be done right now until alliances are implemented, I know. Once they are in though, weekly rewards for your allaince should definitely be a thing. Another thing they could add is something similar to alliance points in ESO (a carrot to chase for the individual player). Lets call it Mist points. You get it by killing other players, capping objectives and defending. MP are displayed on a leaderboard and the top players get additional rewards for their placement on the leaderboard.
    • More frequent balance changes that target broken builds and bring them in line.

    Add those and the company will double its revenue number.

    Edit: formatting

    Just dodge

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't?

    Good stories.

  • Advertisement on all social platform, if Anet hasn't already done that. Emphasize:
    1) NOT pay-to-win aspect (almost all other MMOs are pay-to-win).
    2) No subscription.
    3) New content are being updated regularly and is FREE.
    Please advertise MORE.

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't?"

    Depth. Gw2 overall is very shallow. Skills limited to 5 per weapon wielded (2, 1, and 2 for main hand/off hand sets). Fake variety via the traits, which usually end up with bad builds unless you use the meta which is often based on imbalances. Fake variety in other areas, such as runes, where many of them do just about the same thing unless you have 6 of them to unlock that one 6th stat which often doesn't make much of a difference. A crafting system that barely qualifies as crafting, as all outcomes are pre-determined (mystic forge being an exception, but it shares the same 4-in-1-out process).
    Everyone in GW2 is equally special. You can be unique via cosmetics, and that's about it. There is no specializing in crafting, for example, that makes a player unique. Even Scribes are common, and the guild hall decoration selection is laughable compared to what other games offer their guilds for a tiny fraction of the cost. The combat lacking "trinity" was a bold move, but has resulted in very little specialization within combat. Choose a class based on how you prefer to manage your cooldowns. Choose traits based on which one is currently best DPS due to imbalance, etc.
    Fight the same world boss in every zone all pulling from a small pool of gimmick attacks that serve only to make the battle take longer without requiring a whole lot of skill. WvW: run with zerg, or roam with cheese build.
    Levels mean next to nothing. Usually when someone is new, their first question is "how do I get to level 80 fast?", because there is no depth to content that isn't "end game"

    There are, of course, outliers and exceptions to the points I've made, but overall there is just a lack of depth to GW2. It's fun to play when bored, but overall compared to other games that have been out there (Rift, Eve, Vanguard, Perfect World, ..you know, pretty much any non-NCSoft game), GW2, and most NCSoft games, is just a carnival with those cheesy rides they bring in on semi-trucks, compared to actual amusement parks.
    It is, in a way, exactly what NCSoft wanted. The idea of a game that people can pick up or drop when they want, and not worry about missing a lot when they return . Gem store sales and the Living World stuff broke that a bit, but it is what it is.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • Someone mentioned this above, but it's really fun to read through and see all the reasons why there will never be a "perfect" MMO. We have some telling us that PvP is what makes the world go around, as far as MMOs go, and yet, in so far as I can tell, that's really not the case. DDO is coming up on 12 years old, and PvP has never been a focus of that game. Aion, on the other hand, was marketed full on PvPvE, and delivered, at first, on that, and bled subs like you wouldn't believe. My first legion bailed to Runes of Magic because of PvPvE. 200 people, out the door. My sub was still active when it went F2P.

    Then we have the "but the stories here are really good", followed by "but the stories here are really bad/shallow". I find them entertaining, which is the whole point of a game, I've seen some better stories, and I've seen much worse. Overall, I've not been disappointed though. I find that if I'm not rushing to get to the next objective, and take some time to wander through some zones, there's some really amusing ambient dialog that's well worth hearing at least once, or an event quest that I ran the other day, where a guy was searching for buried treasures, and it turned out to be his wife and daughter. That was touching.

    "But what can we do/what needs to be done to make the game more profitable?" Are we even sure that that's what's behind the layoffs? Has someone gotten some insider info that they're not sharing? It may be that we don't have to worry about that aspect of it. For one thing, GW1 is still up and running. If they were doing that poorly financially, I'm sure that would be shut down. Keeping that up isn't free, after all. For another thing, layoffs sort of go with the territory, especially if you're closing down what amounts to two studios. I, however, have no insights into what's going on, but based on what hasn't happened, such as GW1 not being shut down, I'm not convinced that money is the sole issue here, at least, not in so far as GW is doing as a whole. So I'd say the first thing we should do is relax. Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair, it gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. Starting the "the game is shutting down soon" Tuesday trend, or pick another day if you prefer, isn't going to help anything either. Better to just chill, play the game(s) and have some fun with them. That way, if worst does indeed come to worst, you don't have to sit there kicking yourself in the butt for sitting on the forums worrying about it, instead of enjoying it while it's here.

  • @Neural.1824 said:
    "What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't?"

    Depth. Gw2 overall is very shallow. Skills limited to 5 per weapon wielded (2, 1, and 2 for main hand/off hand sets). Fake variety via the traits, which usually end up with bad builds unless you use the meta which is often based on imbalances. Fake variety in other areas, such as runes, where many of them do just about the same thing unless you have 6 of them to unlock that one 6th stat which often doesn't make much of a difference. A crafting system that barely qualifies as crafting, as all outcomes are pre-determined (mystic forge being an exception, but it shares the same 4-in-1-out process).
    Everyone in GW2 is equally special. You can be unique via cosmetics, and that's about it. There is no specializing in crafting, for example, that makes a player unique. Even Scribes are common, and the guild hall decoration selection is laughable compared to what other games offer their guilds for a tiny fraction of the cost. The combat lacking "trinity" was a bold move, but has resulted in very little specialization within combat. Choose a class based on how you prefer to manage your cooldowns. Choose traits based on which one is currently best DPS due to imbalance, etc.
    Fight the same world boss in every zone all pulling from a small pool of gimmick attacks that serve only to make the battle take longer without requiring a whole lot of skill. WvW: run with zerg, or roam with cheese build.
    Levels mean next to nothing. Usually when someone is new, their first question is "how do I get to level 80 fast?", because there is no depth to content that isn't "end game"

    There are, of course, outliers and exceptions to the points I've made, but overall there is just a lack of depth to GW2. It's fun to play when bored, but overall compared to other games that have been out there (Rift, Eve, Vanguard, Perfect World, ..you know, pretty much any non-NCSoft game), GW2, and most NCSoft games, is just a carnival with those cheesy rides they bring in on semi-trucks, compared to actual amusement parks.
    It is, in a way, exactly what NCSoft wanted. The idea of a game that people can pick up or drop when they want, and not worry about missing a lot when they return . Gem store sales and the Living World stuff broke that a bit, but it is what it is.

    1. Playing on a piano gives more depth to a game? I could agree if you’ve said that having access to more skills/weapons that we can choose from gives more depth to build customization process like in Guild Wars 1, but it also has some drawbacks too.

    The biggest issue when it comes to PvP in MMORPGs is that they are not skill-based and more equipment/grind-based. This means that every fight is less about reactions, about positioning and tactics and more about having the right gear and casting the right rotation regardless of situation. Being a master-league player in two most popular MOBAs I appreciate that Guild Wars 2 is bit different from your standard MMORPG. PvP here is more about coordination and skill, not only because everyone can be at the equal level (stat-wise). Because skills are tied to a weapon it makes opponents easier to read and at the same time there is enough customization within 5 other utility skills that you can always surprise your opponent. This is a good thing, a good approach to PvP. I’m sure some of you disagree, but EVE ONLINE or World of Warcraft are both examples of grind-based PVP that is uninteresting, doesn’t rely on skill and more about resources and time that you spent on your virtual avatar. This can be fun it’s in own way, but it doesn’t make a good PvP game at all. Just look what MOBA achieved with just 4 or 5 abilities tied to a hero. PVP is about consistency, equalness of opportunity and skill. You don’t have that in any MMORPG. Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are both games that are closest to this.

    1. Guild system here is still much better than any other MMORPG, where it is usually neglected and serves mostly as a group chat. You’re now being picky for the sake of being picky.

    In most MMORPGs I ignore crafting and here I have every profession. I use it very often, both for crafting gear, consumables and as a cash making machine. What do you want more? What ANet did well about crafting is that it is used by almost everyone on regular basis and it is also a part of endgame if you want to make legendary weapons/armors.

    1. Well at least we have world bosses and dynamic events that are regularly attended. You don’t have that in other games. In WoW it was dead content the moment they released it back in MoP.

    And just to make it clear; having to jump at certain moments or stand outside of fire doesn’t make a game more skill-based. It’s laughable to even think as such. Memorizing patterns is very poor way of making boss fights difficult and the reason it is done in a such way is because you won’t fall asleep while you play on a piano during a combat.

    WvW is actually the best representation of this mode amongst all MMORPGs. Simplifying it to running behind zerg or running cheese build while roaming is laughable to begin with, especially when you take into consideration the amount of coordination required to be truly successful in a zerg. There is a world of difference between good commander and a poor one or unorganized zerg. I’ve seen battles won by groups four or five times smaller than enemy, simply because they were all working together like a one machine. There is always something to do in WvW and just because you can’t see it, doesn’t mean it is not there.

    1. Leveling is actually fun. People asking about quickest way to level are in every MMORPG + they are probably used to the fact that the game begins at top level, which is here not the case. It’s the journey I enjoy going through from early levels and it is equally fun and challenging at level 80.

    Every game you’ve mention is dimishing in population, so you didn’t even answer OP’s question. If you want to know why MMORPGs are in decline, then you probably have to look elsewhere for the answers. In fact I can tell you why - other games are fun to play from the start, don’t require hardcore grind to achieve something, are more skill-based and are not so overpriced. It is the reason why other genres are now more successful, regardless of what you think about instant gratification and all the other points that I’ve made.

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sorem.9157 said:
    It is no secret that ArenaNet is facing massive layoffs and it is a tough time for the company as a whole. Maybe it is time to ask ourselves why.

    In german there is a saying "Der Fisch stinkt vom Kopf." (The fish stinks from the head.)

    The reasons for a company not beeing succesfull are always the same: Bad (decisions of) leadership/management/owners.
    Nothing else. Simple as that.

    I am not an employee of Arenanet and I do not have any insights into the internal (hidden) projects, financial numbers or management decisions of the company. Do you? If you have, please share them.

    Tough times are best to study ourselves and analyze our path. Do it differently. It is an opportunity for change and growth.

    I do have sympathy for the people that were laid off. But I myself do not have a tough time.
    I just play GW2 for fun. And if playing the game would not be fun anymore, I would stop playing it.

    What is your take? I want to know what do you think that drove GW2 down this path? What could we change in order to ensure our beloved game goes back to the top?

    We can do nothing. We are customers (most of us, I think). If we like what we see, and if we want it, we pay money for it. So it is not us that has to make things better, it is the company that makes this game.

    And you are making the wrong assumption that "GW2 = Arenanet". You are also making the (probably wrong) assumption, that the game "GW2" is not successful and is not making money. From what I have read between the lines of several posts, the game "GW2" still makes money but not enough for financing the other secret games that were in development at Arenanet.

    https://www.gw2gh.com/ - A GW2-Guild-Hall.
    Register and check your guild leaderboard to see who is the best in your guild and who finished achievements first.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    "Equal?" Hardly!
    When have you ever been denied play because you didn't have the right backpack skin? or the "right" ascended gear? or enough AP? Have you been kicked out of WvW or PvP because you didn't have the right tier level? or because you didn't have the last level reward?

    Or are you saying that you, the global "not me" you, don't enjoy playing WvW or PvP? or gathering mats? or playing Fractals? or running around Tyria, slaying monsters? You're saying there is no fun at all in the experience, inside the game? and the only fun you're having is getting a prize at the end? ...because that's pretty sad.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 16, 2019

    the younger generation wants more action, and that's where traditional mmos fail to deliver. gw2 has just enough to keep a decent die hard fan base going in its pvp. whats holding it back is the lack of game modes mostly. I feel like the maps are uninspired as well. they all have equal distances to all points, very symmetrical layout, with some random side mechanic. what I would love to see in map design is more of a counterstrike feel. in that game there are inherent inequities in all of the maps and the paths leading to the capture points. they balance it out though, wonderfully; by either making the points harder to get to or multiple ways to get to them. so both sides have different strengths and weaknesses that vary from path to path. balance will always be an issue, I think its mostly fine with some problem builds. biggest problem aren't op specs, its the up ones. I think the lack of viable builds is something that is a huge detriment to this game. that's part of what made gw1 pvp so enjoyable; you could make some random build and with your decent amount of game knowledge make it work. with gw2, the skills are either too good to pass up or too bad to consider. its like they all have their different uses depending on game mode, and that's really a bad thing imo.

    wvw will continue to fail because there is a disconnect at the most basic level. there are too many ways that enforce equity, except population will always make this mode inherently unequal. whats needed is a solid way for smaller more organized groups to take down bigger ones. that would mean an aoe cap reshuffling, so auto attacks and weaker skills hit less people and bigger bomb type ones hit a lot more. that would turn population disparity into a strength. im not sure what would be needed in order for this to happen since im no expert. im guessing less people per map. longer queues would certainly be a big downside but I think most people would agree that the longer wait time for much better battles would be a good trade off.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is hard to tell. I do not know what is GW2 financial position, and that is what drives this conversation. I can only speak of what I want to see more of:

    1) Much better map/quest design. Everything since end of LWS3 was a step down.

    2) Better diversity and better attention to class balance.

    3) Impovents in graphics.

    4) Expansions. I liked the 2 year cycle expansion. I do not see myself playing the game few month from now without enough new contents. LW content (particularly LWS4) is not going to keep me active for 18 more month. And if within that time I move on, there is no going back.

  • @Trise.2865 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    "Equal?" Hardly!
    When have you ever been denied play because you didn't have the right backpack skin? or the "right" ascended gear? or enough AP? Have you been kicked out of WvW or PvP because you didn't have the right tier level? or because you didn't have the last level reward?

    Or are you saying that you, the global "not me" you, don't enjoy playing WvW or PvP? or gathering mats? or playing Fractals? or running around Tyria, slaying monsters? You're saying there is no fun at all in the experience, inside the game? and the only fun you're having is getting a prize at the end? ...because that's pretty sad.

    Are you certain we're talking about the same thing? My "equally present" comment was referring to having to wait to get certain goals finished when you might already have the materials/other items necessary to do them at the time. Not talking about being shut out of some game type for not having enough X, Y, or Z. If anything, my most memorable time where that did happen was doing dungeons at launch back when they were still a thing. And no, I'm not just trying to rush through to get the "prize" at the end. That's part of the reason I play PvP/WvW more often now than when the game launched. Progress there is mostly due to how well I can do things myself. Which in those modes in particular is only above average, not super skilled, if I'm being honest about my own abilities.

    What I am saying is that it's less rewarding each time you achieve it. I'll take ascended gear for example. Especially in the cases where you might play like I do, across multiple game types frequently (PvP, WvW, Raids, less so on fractals), it's dead simple to get a full set of ascended gear. Maybe I farm Season 3 maps for a week or so for the trinkets, but then it's back to the jam. It takes Anet a good while to get new content patches out, and a good while longer between the bigger releases like expansions, and I'm just worried about what it will look like in the near future.

    Looking at it a different way: If I were a new player, there's a huge chunk of content to get through that blows launch GW2 out of the water, that's clear. But as someone who's been here since the betas I find I get through most content with relative ease. I make my own goals as well, but they don't seem as impactful.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • Neural.1824Neural.1824 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    Every game you’ve mention is dimishing in population,

    snort. yeah, mostly because they are older games that are trying to stay alive by implementing the same lack-of-depth "spare time" game mechanics.
    Beyond that, yeah, whatever you say. It's pretty clear your view of games is 180deg off from mine.

    Soul-binding needs to be allowed to die gracefully. It has expired. It is long past it's time to become a footnote in the history of gaming.

  • @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    "Equal?" Hardly!
    When have you ever been denied play because you didn't have the right backpack skin? or the "right" ascended gear? or enough AP? Have you been kicked out of WvW or PvP because you didn't have the right tier level? or because you didn't have the last level reward?

    Or are you saying that you, the global "not me" you, don't enjoy playing WvW or PvP? or gathering mats? or playing Fractals? or running around Tyria, slaying monsters? You're saying there is no fun at all in the experience, inside the game? and the only fun you're having is getting a prize at the end? ...because that's pretty sad.

    Are you certain we're talking about the same thing? My "equally present" comment was referring to having to wait to get certain goals finished when you might already have the materials/other items necessary to do them at the time. Not talking about being shut out of some game type for not having enough X, Y, or Z. If anything, my most memorable time where that did happen was doing dungeons at launch back when they were still a thing. And no, I'm not just trying to rush through to get the "prize" at the end. That's part of the reason I play PvP/WvW more often now than when the game launched. Progress there is mostly due to how well I can do things myself. Which in those modes in particular is only above average, not super skilled, if I'm being honest about my own abilities.

    What I am saying is that it's less rewarding each time you achieve it. I'll take ascended gear for example. Especially in the cases where you might play like I do, across multiple game types frequently (PvP, WvW, Raids, less so on fractals), it's dead simple to get a full set of ascended gear. Maybe I farm Season 3 maps for a week or so for the trinkets, but then it's back to the jam. It takes Anet a good while to get new content patches out, and a good while longer between the bigger releases like expansions, and I'm just worried about what it will look like in the near future.

    Looking at it a different way: If I were a new player, there's a huge chunk of content to get through that blows launch GW2 out of the water, that's clear. But as someone who's been here since the betas I find I get through most content with relative ease. I make my own goals as well, but they don't seem as impactful.

    ...and if I'd been here since beta, I'm sure I'd have the same "problem". However, as a new(ish) player, I'm not finding that I do. So while your "issue" may apply to vets, most new players likely aren't running into it.

  • @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    "Equal?" Hardly!
    When have you ever been denied play because you didn't have the right backpack skin? or the "right" ascended gear? or enough AP? Have you been kicked out of WvW or PvP because you didn't have the right tier level? or because you didn't have the last level reward?

    Or are you saying that you, the global "not me" you, don't enjoy playing WvW or PvP? or gathering mats? or playing Fractals? or running around Tyria, slaying monsters? You're saying there is no fun at all in the experience, inside the game? and the only fun you're having is getting a prize at the end? ...because that's pretty sad.

    Are you certain we're talking about the same thing? My "equally present" comment was referring to having to wait to get certain goals finished when you might already have the materials/other items necessary to do them at the time. Not talking about being shut out of some game type for not having enough X, Y, or Z. If anything, my most memorable time where that did happen was doing dungeons at launch back when they were still a thing. And no, I'm not just trying to rush through to get the "prize" at the end. That's part of the reason I play PvP/WvW more often now than when the game launched. Progress there is mostly due to how well I can do things myself. Which in those modes in particular is only above average, not super skilled, if I'm being honest about my own abilities.

    What I am saying is that it's less rewarding each time you achieve it. I'll take ascended gear for example. Especially in the cases where you might play like I do, across multiple game types frequently (PvP, WvW, Raids, less so on fractals), it's dead simple to get a full set of ascended gear. Maybe I farm Season 3 maps for a week or so for the trinkets, but then it's back to the jam. It takes Anet a good while to get new content patches out, and a good while longer between the bigger releases like expansions, and I'm just worried about what it will look like in the near future.

    Looking at it a different way: If I were a new player, there's a huge chunk of content to get through that blows launch GW2 out of the water, that's clear. But as someone who's been here since the betas I find I get through most content with relative ease. I make my own goals as well, but they don't seem as impactful.

    ...and if I'd been here since beta, I'm sure I'd have the same "problem". However, as a new(ish) player, I'm not finding that I do. So while your "issue" may apply to vets, most new players likely aren't running into it.

    Yes, and that leads to my next question: How is the game doing for new players? How is it able to keep new players? Since I've been a level 80 I haven't really had the new player experience in a long while; until my friend started playing that is. While I was playing with him I noticed that the game doesn't really have the best teaching system about what you should expect. Yes, it does go through the map mechanics somewhat, but my friend still found that he was asking me more than the game was showing him. I don't particularly mind helping him out, or any new player for that matter, but that issue with having the game explain itself easily is a big question I have for new player retention. I don't know, maybe I'm more critical of it because I'm very invested.

    I do realize it may be coming across as general impatience, but I'll admit to spending way less time on PoF related material when compared to HoT related material. Maybe it's the lack of metas, maybe bounties weren't targeted towards players w/similar interests (which is true for me), and so forth. I just want to stress that new players will eventually get to the same place everyone else is at, both narratively and in a goal/achievement/gear sense. I'm simply worried at what I perceive to be content that's either not very "dense" or deep enough for it to hold people over until the next content drops, whenever that is for whoever plays it.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • @Battledoll.1803 said:
    Advertisement on all social platform, if Anet hasn't already done that. Emphasize:
    1) NOT pay-to-win aspect (almost all other MMOs are pay-to-win).
    2) No subscription.
    3) New content are being updated regularly and is FREE.
    Please advertise MORE.

    Also something funny: I already own the game and it's respective expansions but I'm getting more GW2 ads now than I ever did before. I just find it so strange because I'm not gonna go out and buy a 2nd account so I don't know why I'm targeted with those ads xD

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    @Trise.2865 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:
    **Disclaimer: I don't criticize because I want to kitten all over the game, but because I see great potential in it and hope to one day realize/experience that potential firsthand.

    @Trise.2865 said:
    But volume is meaningless without density. Other games feel more "full" because they're full of filler: mindless busywork, needlessly difficult-to-reach objective-starters and turn-ins, time-wasting traversal through empty space, criminal levels of copypasta...

    Generally speaking I would agree. However, I do perceive a lower density of playable content since PoF if I'm being quite honest. Realistically, it's possible that some of the content that was added simply doesn't appeal to me regardless of whatever game that content shows up. Additionally, I don't actually know how many of the PoF achievements I've done, but I know I've cleared 2 of the maps from PoF, as well as the majority of the story achievements from that expansion and, being honest, some things I just don't enjoy going doing or existing in the game. Adventures fell flat to me, the mastery system is a cool [but shortsighted] idea that requires just a little bit of time and is generally region specific (excluding the player-only movement/mount masteries), collections are just an interface away from being something resembling quests without a minuscule amount of writing to get you from point A to B...

    I just get tired of waiting. Tired of waiting 2 months between living world patches, or however long for balance, or the knowledge that vanilla zones will arguable see little in the ways of improvement...

    ...they make you think like the fun you are having is more fun than it is by making you wait for it. Not work for it, wait for it.

    I'm sorry to say that this is equally present in GW2, but the delivery is different to what people may be used to seeing.

    Ascended crafting? Time gated.
    Certain gathering nodes? Time gated.
    Certain collections? Druid backpiece, Time gated.
    **Weekly caps on magnetite shards/other raid rewards? Time/skill gated
    **WvW and PvP (seasonal) pip/rewards? Time/skill gated. (a bit different, but still resets on the week for those of you who don't play those game modes)

    The only thing that keeps this from being quite so egregious is the fact that max gear is fairly easy to obtain in GW2, to your previous point where the gear treadmill in other games is artificial and low-hanging fruit content generation. I super agree with that, as I mentioned in another post. But maaaaaaan…. If you don't have to upgrade your armor, and you're like me, with several armor/weapon sets per character... I have 16 serviceable characters, most w/ascended and multiple builds for different game modes... There's really not much else at the top until the patch a new episode. I need more. We need more.

    "Equal?" Hardly!
    When have you ever been denied play because you didn't have the right backpack skin? or the "right" ascended gear? or enough AP? Have you been kicked out of WvW or PvP because you didn't have the right tier level? or because you didn't have the last level reward?

    Or are you saying that you, the global "not me" you, don't enjoy playing WvW or PvP? or gathering mats? or playing Fractals? or running around Tyria, slaying monsters? You're saying there is no fun at all in the experience, inside the game? and the only fun you're having is getting a prize at the end? ...because that's pretty sad.

    Are you certain we're talking about the same thing? My "equally present" comment was referring to having to wait to get certain goals finished when you might already have the materials/other items necessary to do them at the time. Not talking about being shut out of some game type for not having enough X, Y, or Z. If anything, my most memorable time where that did happen was doing dungeons at launch back when they were still a thing. And no, I'm not just trying to rush through to get the "prize" at the end. That's part of the reason I play PvP/WvW more often now than when the game launched. Progress there is mostly due to how well I can do things myself. Which in those modes in particular is only above average, not super skilled, if I'm being honest about my own abilities.

    What I am saying is that it's less rewarding each time you achieve it. I'll take ascended gear for example. Especially in the cases where you might play like I do, across multiple game types frequently (PvP, WvW, Raids, less so on fractals), it's dead simple to get a full set of ascended gear. Maybe I farm Season 3 maps for a week or so for the trinkets, but then it's back to the jam. It takes Anet a good while to get new content patches out, and a good while longer between the bigger releases like expansions, and I'm just worried about what it will look like in the near future.

    Looking at it a different way: If I were a new player, there's a huge chunk of content to get through that blows launch GW2 out of the water, that's clear. But as someone who's been here since the betas I find I get through most content with relative ease. I make my own goals as well, but they don't seem as impactful.

    ...and if I'd been here since beta, I'm sure I'd have the same "problem". However, as a new(ish) player, I'm not finding that I do. So while your "issue" may apply to vets, most new players likely aren't running into it.

    Yes, and that leads to my next question: How is the game doing for new players? How is it able to keep new players? Since I've been a level 80 I haven't really had the new player experience in a long while; until my friend started playing that is. While I was playing with him I noticed that the game doesn't really have the best teaching system about what you should expect. Yes, it does go through the map mechanics somewhat, but my friend still found that he was asking me more than the game was showing him. I don't particularly mind helping him out, or any new player for that matter, but that issue with having the game explain itself easily is a big question I have for new player retention. I don't know, maybe I'm more critical of it because I'm very invested.

    I do realize it may be coming across as general impatience, but I'll admit to spending way less time on PoF related material when compared to HoT related material. Maybe it's the lack of metas, maybe bounties weren't targeted towards players w/similar interests (which is true for me), and so forth. I just want to stress that new players will eventually get to the same place everyone else is at, both narratively and in a goal/achievement/gear sense. I'm simply worried at what I perceive to be content that's either not very "dense" or deep enough for it to hold people over until the next content drops, whenever that is for whoever plays it.

    I can't say for others, but I have a great time, when I am actively playing. The problem for me is, quite simply, "oo, shiny". In the year that I've been playing there have been 2 SP games that I'd been following for a while, or playing the games that came before them in a series. AC Odyssey, and Shadow of the Tomb Raider. I put some serious time in the Tomb Raider game, but Odyssey soaked up 300 hours, so I didn't have time to come back to GW 2. I should also mention that I'd also went back to GW, since I never really got into it before GW 2 came out, despite owning it and most of the expansions. The latter because of an item I got for the Hall of Heroes, I think it is, and noting how empty it was for me in GW 2.

    As for the rest, that's going to happen in any game you pick up, eventually. I've played MMOs before where I accomplished everything I wanted to, and I've played MMOs where I never got close to that, but played for years. The thing is, at some point, we start playing MMOs more for the people, than the actual game. I've been in the same guild in DDO for almost a decade. I can't bring myself to seriously play that game any more, but I haven't uninstalled it, because every once in a while I log in to chat with the friends I've made there. I've seen the complaint in other places about x game being more of a social network, and I'll counter that with "yeah, but it's supposed to be that way, hence MMO".

  • Ashantara.8731Ashantara.8731 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 17, 2019

    @Omernon.9762 said:

    @Neural.1824 said:
    "What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't?"

    Depth. Gw2 overall is very shallow. Skills limited to 5 per weapon wielded (2, 1, and 2 for main hand/off hand sets). Fake variety via the traits, which usually end up with bad builds unless you use the meta which is often based on imbalances. Fake variety in other areas, such as runes, where many of them do just about the same thing unless you have 6 of them to unlock that one 6th stat which often doesn't make much of a difference. A crafting system that barely qualifies as crafting, as all outcomes are pre-determined (mystic forge being an exception, but it shares the same 4-in-1-out process).
    Everyone in GW2 is equally special. You can be unique via cosmetics, and that's about it. There is no specializing in crafting, for example, that makes a player unique. Even Scribes are common, and the guild hall decoration selection is laughable compared to what other games offer their guilds for a tiny fraction of the cost. The combat lacking "trinity" was a bold move, but has resulted in very little specialization within combat. Choose a class based on how you prefer to manage your cooldowns. Choose traits based on which one is currently best DPS due to imbalance, etc.
    Fight the same world boss in every zone all pulling from a small pool of gimmick attacks that serve only to make the battle take longer without requiring a whole lot of skill. WvW: run with zerg, or roam with cheese build.
    Levels mean next to nothing. Usually when someone is new, their first question is "how do I get to level 80 fast?", because there is no depth to content that isn't "end game"

    There are, of course, outliers and exceptions to the points I've made, but overall there is just a lack of depth to GW2. It's fun to play when bored, but overall compared to other games that have been out there (Rift, Eve, Vanguard, Perfect World, ..you know, pretty much any non-NCSoft game), GW2, and most NCSoft games, is just a carnival with those cheesy rides they bring in on semi-trucks, compared to actual amusement parks.
    It is, in a way, exactly what NCSoft wanted. The idea of a game that people can pick up or drop when they want, and not worry about missing a lot when they return . Gem store sales and the Living World stuff broke that a bit, but it is what it is.

    1. Playing on a piano gives more depth to a game? [...]

    I actually agree with what @Neural.1824 wrote. It's not about "playing the piano", it's about choice and variety, which isn't present in this game. Even GW1 had more to offer in that area. The only time I ever felt truly challenged in this game skill-use wise was during the Festival of the Four Winds (namely the Queen's Gauntlet).

    I agree on all other points they made, too. GW2 lacks depth in several department.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    This game would greatly benefit from a third expansion announcement. Show the community what you're working on.
    Let the hype come back to GW2.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    I told him about the quality of life a legendary has over ascended, rune/attribute swapping sans penalty, but he was rather nonplussed by it. To him, he hoped legendary would be... legendary. Superior to everything else in slot. No amount of quality of life was going to change his playstyle and I did everything I could to make him look at it from a different perspective, but in the end it didn't take. Something else, entirely unrelated to the games gearing model made him quit, but that probably didn't help. Again, the actual experience of combat didn't take away from the game, but I wonder what can be done to reach out to more people while still allowing this to feel unique and fresh.

    Often you will find that people aren't good at the game skill wise but dont want to admit they're bad. So when they can't get more stats they just think they can't do better. What they don't realise is this game is about skill and knowledge progression not stats.

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    I actually agree with what @Neural.1824 wrote. It's not about "playing the piano", it's about choice and variety, which isn't present in this game. Even GW1 had more to offer in that area. The only time I ever felt truly challenged in this game skill-use wise was during the Festival of the Four Winds (namely the Queen's Gauntlet).

    You mean once there are no other people in the party to carry you suddenly the content becomes challenging? what a surprise.
    Now try soloing some T4 fractal bosses and see how you fair.

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @Neural.1824 said:

    Depth. Gw2 overall is very shallow. Skills limited to 5 per weapon wielded (2, 1, and 2 for main hand/off hand sets).

    Different weapons to suit different purposes/fights/playstyle.

    Fake variety via the traits, which usually end up with bad builds unless you use the meta which is often based on imbalances.

    IF you haven't realised yet, meta builds aren't always the best for every fight. Different traits are taken often for different fight and to tailor to different party compositions.

    Fake variety in other areas, such as runes, where many of them do just about the same thing unless you have 6 of them to unlock that one 6th stat which often doesn't make much of a difference.

    Except alot of them are very different. The REAL valid criticism is not all of them get used.

    A crafting system that barely qualifies as crafting, as all outcomes are pre-determined (mystic forge being an exception, but it shares the same 4-in-1-out process).

    You mean instead of getting random stats and random quality like in other MMORPGs which end up wasting people's time and force people to recraft the same thing endlessly? No gw2 has it much better, you get exactly what you intend to craft.

    Everyone in GW2 is equally special. You can be unique via cosmetics, and that's about it. There is no specializing in crafting, for example, that makes a player unique.

    Everyone has equal opporunity to play well but whether they actually play well depend on their determination and experience. Players skill level and play styles in gw2 have great variety compared to other MMO. Basically yousound like you care more about showing off than actual substance.

    The combat lacking "trinity" was a bold move, but has resulted in very little specialization within combat. Choose a class based on how you prefer to manage your cooldowns. Choose traits based on which one is currently best DPS due to imbalance, etc.

    Actually it resulted in great variety in builds that people can opt to take depending on what they want to do. Ever seen someone take different traits, weapons, sigils for specific fights? No? then you haven't been playing the harder content of the game and only been sticking to casual content.

    Fight the same world boss in every zone all pulling from a small pool of gimmick attacks that serve only to make the battle take longer without requiring a whole lot of skill.

    Yes world bosses are casual content.

    WvW: run with zerg, or roam with cheese build.

    OR maybe you can learn how to play aginst cheese builds rather than complaining. Yes your favourate build that you enjoy playing wont work against everything.

    Levels mean next to nothing. Usually when someone is new, their first question is "how do I get to level 80 fast?", because there is no depth to content that isn't "end game"

    Leveling from 1 to 80 is a tutorial where the new player learn the basics of their class and they get to explore and learn about the world of Tyria.

    There are, of course, outliers and exceptions to the points I've made, but overall there is just a lack of depth to GW2.

    No you just lack appreciation and facts.

    It is, in a way, exactly what NCSoft wanted. The idea of a game that people can pick up or drop when they want, and not worry about missing a lot when they return . Gem store sales and the Living World stuff broke that a bit, but it is what it is.

    Yes that way people dont need to quit if they're busy for a month. Their gear that they've spend time farming will still be useful the next time they log in.

  • FrigginPaco.4178FrigginPaco.4178 Member ✭✭
    edited March 18, 2019

    @squallaus.8321 said:

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    I told him about the quality of life a legendary has over ascended, rune/attribute swapping sans penalty, but he was rather nonplussed by it. To him, he hoped legendary would be... legendary. Superior to everything else in slot. No amount of quality of life was going to change his playstyle and I did everything I could to make him look at it from a different perspective, but in the end it didn't take. Something else, entirely unrelated to the games gearing model made him quit, but that probably didn't help. Again, the actual experience of combat didn't take away from the game, but I wonder what can be done to reach out to more people while still allowing this to feel unique and fresh.

    Often you will find that people aren't good at the game skill wise but dont want to admit they're bad. So when they can't get more stats they just think they can't do better. What they don't realise is this game is about skill and knowledge progression not stats.

    That's definitely true for the early-mid portions of his experience, and to be fair he gave it a much bigger shot than the last time. Ironically by the time he quit he wasn't experiencing much difficulty with metas and stuff, but I think in the end his philosophy and the one this game puts forward don't jive. It's a shame, but it might simply be a case of "you can't please everybody", especially now that I'm thinking about it again.

    EDIT: I also tried to let him know that this was a game where the skill/knowledge cap was the final frontier, but he was also not terribly moved by that argument. Back in WoW he had also been involved with their most difficult raiding content. I understand that experience doesn't necessarily translate into this game, especially for PvE which is a wet paper bag, but it may help understand his perspective.

    Potential requires action in order to be realized.

  • Scar.1793Scar.1793 Member ✭✭✭

    @FrigginPaco.4178 said:

    @Sorem.9157 said:

    What does GW2 not have that makes the game diminishing? What do popular games have that Guild Wars 2 doesn't? If you wanna know my opinion, it is PvP incentive. Most popular games of this time revolve around PvP in the format of MOBAs or Battle Royale of some sort. I'm not saying GW2 should be like that, it has it's own different niche and it can be very popular at that. PvP is never the same, doesn't matter how many times you play it, because it is a human versus another human things can always go either way. PvE is not like that and that is why (in my humble opinion) it doesn't make games popular. ArenaNet has neglected PvP for far too long and it is hard to understand why, since PvP in GW1 was clearly the main reason of its success.

    I'm going to be honest, the thing GW2 lacks that makes the game "diminishing" as you said, would be resources. Please allow me a brief digression to explain this:

    I had a friend that I managed to finally entice to play GW2 for the first time. He was an ex-WoW and ex-Final Fantasy XIV player, and spent most of his playtime on the former. After having played this game for about 100 hours he noted that the volume of our content was rather shallow. He enjoyed the quality of it, the writing, and the feel of the game, but using his words "Your expansions just feel so small compared to what I'm used to,".

    His experiences with our in-game store were also a source of frustration due to the fact that he was prone to overspending and was aware of the artificial scarcity produced by the marketing structure used. This is referring to the fact that not 100% of the items on the gemstore are available 100% of the time, thus limiting the shopping window to produce a sense of "missing out" on the items for weeks or months until they return. This is where I'm going to bring it back.

    Money. The 3rd quarter of 2017 made GW2 a large percentage of its profits for that year. The Path of Fire expansion is what caused that huge bump in profits, obviously. In the months after expansions hit profits go on a steady decline. The only thing left is the gemstore. To me, this is a very weak strategy that hinges on the notion that various cosmetics/quality of life upgrades will be enough to keep profits in whatever ranges NCsoft wants them to be.

    I've been a Guild Wars player since the moment I joined the game in 2007. From then on, I have enjoyed over ten years of the studio's games. However, after having witnessed the layoffs with the rest of the community I think it's time I realize something. I know that if offered, I would pay a premium subscription fee for this game. It would NECESSARILY HAVE TO BE extremely bare bones in order to not retroactively sting the people who have spent crazy amounts on the gemstore, something like a flat stipend of 1000 gems per month or something similar. Maybe throw in another one of those 1 day celebration boosters at the start of every week, who knows, something! If I'm not mistaken Elder Scrolls Online has something similar after they removed their mandatory subscription fee, and they have some other rewards that go along with having been a subscriber over a longer period of time... But ArenaNet needs money more than anything else, and a $10 (U.S.) sub fee - to me - is worth providing if it means I can see more content over the long run.

    TL;DR. I am invested enough in this game's success and the enjoyment I get from it that I would pay for a bare-bones sub fee if it meant getting a higher volume of content.

    Completely agree with you on this. I would also add that along with the low volume of content poor balance patches are to blame too. Just as an example power rev has been unplayable and rejected in every endgame mode (raid/fractals). It’s been years. The few latest patches only made it worse and we have to pray for the patch not being as bad or worse. Which comes around 3-4 months from now. It’s terrible and was also one of the reasons I left and went back to one of the MMO you mentioned.

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