(Spoiler) A question related to story mission The Departing

In the story instance The Departing the commander is killed by Balthazar and sent to Domain of The Lost and meets our Glorious Leader Palawa Joko. After that the commander has to fight the get their memories and everything back, and in the end the commander escapes the Domain of The Lost and is resurrected.

My question isHow did Balthazar actually know that the commander would be at the that hilltop? Did i miss something when doing the story?

He had forces watching you the entire time.

The moment you enter the Desolation and speak to the Order of Shadows agent, they mention the commander being watched before their death and say they couldn't tell the commander in time.

A different question from me which is related to this instance. Since we died, are we still bound to that Shining Blade oath, which will kill us if we spill the beans?

@Walhalla.5473 said:A different question from me which is related to this instance. Since we died, are we still bound to that Shining Blade oath, which will kill us if we spill the beans?

The oath may probably never get any mention again because it was a sad mistake just like Malyck.

@maxwelgm.4315 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:A different question from me which is related to this instance. Since we died, are we still bound to that Shining Blade oath, which will kill us if we spill the beans?

Perhaps, but it would be really funny to see that the Shining Blade Oath doesn't work on us anymore. Especially the reactions could be hilarious.

Hard to say since we don't know the full nature of the oath, so it's 50/50. But it's unlikely to come up again since it was just a plot point to bring in the Shining Blade and Lazarus for the end of Season 3. Unlike Malyck where they did intend to come through with that plot, but scrapped it during HoT development due to time and story plotline.

@Walhalla.5473 said:A different question from me which is related to this instance. Since we died, are we still bound to that Shining Blade oath, which will kill us if we spill the beans?I'm going to place a bet on "yes". The oath says that it will kill us if we try to reveal its secrets to anyone who had not also taken the oath. It does not say that we must keep the oath until we are dead. There's a subtle difference, and considering it was a necromancer who set up the oath, she'd know all too well that dead men do tell tales in Tyria.

Slightly off-topic to the current discussion on that bloody ridiculous oath*, but what I've been wondering since playing that mission was that why didn't Balthaddon just snatch the Commander's soul from the Domain of the Lost (he knew the Commander was sent there after killing him/her) and forge a new Herald of Balthaddon with that particular soul? After all, he's admitted that the Commander was proving quite useful and even offered a chance to join him despite his/her constant meddling. If I were Balthaddon, I definitely would have taken this fantastic opportunity to create a superbly efficient, obedient officer for my armies out of my latest nemesis.

Of course, I have the answers ready (the Commander's / her soul's plot armor and/or poor writing), but still; just for fun it would be interesting to read some efforts of flexible lore and story bending to explain this smaller plot hole.

[*I still have no idea why a cult-like, perverted ritual of literal and figurative roasting, waterboarding, shaming and whatnot had to be made an integral part of an organization that was fighting this kind of cultist behavior.]

Balthazar acknowledged his offer's refusal by the Commander during The Sacrifice, so he decided to kill him from this point.

Uhm... you do realize that unwilling souls can be cast into Forged armor as well, just like as it was in the case of Shiro'ken? Balthaddon and his soldiers slay all those villagers and Elonans so that their souls can be claimed and added to the ranks of the Forged. Thus the Commander's soul was perfectly viable to be molded into Balthaddon's perfect servant after he/she had been offed.

@Thalador.4218 said:Slightly off-topic to the current discussion on that bloody ridiculous oath*, but what I've been wondering since playing that mission was that why didn't Balthaddon just snatch the Commander's soul from the Domain of the Lost (he knew the Commander was sent there after killing him/her)

Did he? The Domain of the Lost is where those who forget themselves go. Did Balthazar know that in killing the Commander, the Commander would forget themselves?

I doubt it.

He might have suspected, but remember that at the time Balthazar was securing Aurene - who would no doubt be able to overpower most of his Forged. Furthermore, at that point in time (as shown in the Desolation's meta), Balthazar was taking most of his forces from the Realm of Torment rather than the Domain of the Lost (wish we had a bit more lore on that... seems rather out of place for suddenly "Forged coming out of the Realm of Torment!" Are they going through the Realm of Torment from the Fissure of Woe? Have they usurped control over the Realm of Torment? Are they simply invading the Realm of Torment and recalling troops for that meta?).

A commendable effort, but still falling short of providing a believable explanation. Balthaddon clearly says in Joko's Sky Garden, when the Commander shows up alive and practically unhurt, that s/he escaped the Domain of the Lost, exploiting Grenth's absence, but that his/her resurrection will amount to nothing. And no, the Commander does not confess beforehand that "You killed me, but I rediscovered myself in the Domain of the Lost and resurrected myself!" No. Balthaddon utters this exposition immediately upon realizing his mistake. He knew where the Commander was, he knew how easy it would be to snatch him/her in that amnesiac state and force the spirit into an uber-Forged body (maybe the Beast of War itself), but didn't do anything about it.

Aurene couldn't do anything about Balthaddon's chains alone and by herself, and she definitely wouldn't be able overpower his chains and the bulk of his army in the matter of minutes/hours it would probably take to pull off the ritual.

It's completely possible that he figured it out after seeing you alive as that was, at least in his head, the ONLY way you could came back to life after he killed you rather than him KNOWING you were there after he killed you. Not out of his realm of knowledge to put 2 and 2 together.

I don't recall a line specifically calling out the Domain of the Lost, just exploiting Grenth's absence. But as JayMack says, putting 2 and 2 together is not a hard thing even for a conflict-addicted (sigh on that part >.>) ex-god.

(Side note: Balthazar mentioning that resurrection was possible because of exploiting Grenth's absence indicates that the reason resurrection magic ceased in the past 250 years is because Grenth decided to forbid it, rather than being due to his absence or Dhuum's return - interesting).

But what makes you guys think that one can only be resurrected from the Domain of the Lost? It's a part of the Underworld just like all the others where the souls of the dead get processed - except for the special kind of spirits it deals with. If anything, it's waaaay harder to fulfill the requirements needed for a successful resurrection from the DotL than from other regions in the Underworld. Other places a soul would retain its name, its purpose, its knowledge of death, and can skip straight ahead to presenting itself to a Judge/Reaper/Spirit Lord and receive judgement - or in the Commander's case: bargain for release to stop Grenth's and Tyria's enemy, ALMIGHTY CONFLICT-LOVING BALTHADDON. The Judge/Reaper/Grenth-appointed Spirit Lord would either send the Commander back immediately (if there was enough life left in the body after spending much less time to receive judgement) or point the Commander in the direction of a powerful creature to be killed and absorbed for life force. In the DotL one has to hunt down his or her very name to remember (which could also get lost forever or claimed by a misguided spirit), then go through the life events step-by-step (poor Commander, having to suffer through the trauma of seeing that silly story again...) to reclaim their purpose and only then can s/he receive judgement, bargain, get directions to the closest, conveniently placed life force battery for resuscitation. All that time spent on getting to remember who you were while out in Tyria your corpse could get eaten by scavengers, chopped up or some other nasty thing could happen to it. Knowing this, I wouldn't presume the Commander was in the DotL if not for the fact that I've known where s/he would go as a soul since the moment I killed him/her.

Secondly, Balthaddon's entire existence was about wars and conflict and murder. He fought possibly on countless battlefields (if he was here, he'd probably say the cheesy line that "I AM THE BATTLEFIELD" in a true Palpatine-esque fashion) and knew it all too well what happens to the generic, non-heroic soldiers that die painful, traumatic deaths. Actually, knowing how he fights, everyone he's ever killed must have suffered a traumatic death and got sent straight to the DotL. Seeing how stressed out the Commander was with fighting ALMIGHTY BALTHADDON in a sweltering ring of fire, bleeding out, and seeing precious Aurene getting captured, only to get lobbed in the face by a ball of fiery energies, he must have thought that the Commander got served the best possible way for interfering with his plans: forgetting who s/he was entirely... at which point he could've just passed Aurene to his Forged generals, opened a portal to the DotL, grabbed the Commander's soul and cast it into a Forged armor. Or better yet; claim the soul right after death and take it along for the ride.

Edit: Konig, just replay that step. He does say it, I'm certain of that.

Balthazar was probably thinking "He's of no consequence right now, once I destroy Kralkatorrik and absorb its power, this world will be destroyed anyway. I'll have no more need of these Forged minions after that." The cliche 'Evil God thinks he has enough time to win, doesn't bother covering his bases' thing.

@Thalador.4218 said:

Edit: Konig, just replay that step. He does say it, I'm certain of that.

Actually, I believe you tell Balthazar that you escaped from the DotL and he only says that you used Grenths absence to do so...which implies he didn't put 2 and 2 together until you told him where you came back from, because as a Hero and Commander he would have no reason to think you would go to the DotL, even with the traumatic death at his hands, that's why he didn't bother to get your soul and imprison it in a Forged body. Besides, I'm not so sure he can enter the DotL, and just because he put Joko there does not mean he went there, he sent Joko there and put him in that cage then left him there as that would be easier because Joko lost himself long ago(other than his name).

I'm more or less in the same boat as Zaklex. Between needing Joko to show him the way there in the first place (presumably through the Tomb of Primeval Kings), and the dialogue with the Judge indicating that it was a once-off visit, I think the idea is that Balthazar can't freely access the Domain. Why that might be the case is a thornier question- only thing I can think of is some protection to keep him from encroaching on Grenth's realm, maybe set up after they chained him up, but that wouldn't explain why a portal would circumvent that, or why he needed Joko to point him towards an access point to the Mists that the Zaishen once guarded. Regardless, though, with the means for his victory in hand, there would be no need to take a lengthy detour just to bind a spirit that may or may not actually be all that more powerful than the others once stuffed into a Forged suit.

Which is a second reason he might have left us be, even if he could freely access the realm. From what we've seen, the power of a Forged has more to do with the form the armor is cast in, and not necessarily anything to do with the soul bound within. Similarly, it's unclear how much the Commander's experience and skill would've actually benefited Balthazar after whatever process strips his servants of free will is done. Nor would he particularly need a superpowered Forged to begin with; the Herald's role had been harvesting souls, but increasing the size of his army no longer mattered at that point. He had enough to serve their purpose, he had the dragon he needed to kill a dragon, and Balthazar- or Balthadon, or whatever label you slap on to make it more palatable- wasn't one for distractions or detours.

With all due respect, but did you guys actually pay attention to the story, the dialogue and the implications of both? Because it doesn't seem so, and at least that - missing out on so many details that contradict the lore and make the story inconsistent - would explain why you continue to defend the undefendable and not see the plot for what it is: a poorly written, maddeningly predictable, blatant copy of Nightfall that makes little sense whatsoever.

I've just chased down the War Beast again and checked the dialogue:

• Balthaddon: "Impossible! I ended you!"
• The Commander: "I'm here to free Aurene from that thing."
• Balthaddon: "You took advantage of Grenth's absence to escape the Domain of the Lost, but your resurrection is over."

As for whether Balthaddon was there with Joko in the DotL or not:

• Palawa Joko: "I was deceived by the fallen god Balthazar. I led him here to claim spirits for his army."...
• The Judge: "When Balthazar left, a fearsome beast, the Eater of Souls, rose to prey on the waning life energy of the spirits here."

And actually, Balthaddon doesn't even need to go back to the Domain of the Lost to claim the spirits he and his send there:

• The Judge: "Balthazar has done great harm here. The magic he uses to hijack spirits shakes the foundations of the Domain of the Lost."

His magic lingers there, snatching the souls away before they could reclaim their names and purpose, and forces them back to Tyria where they get cast into the Forged bodies.

All the "martyrs" (as the Forged call them) slaughtered by Balthaddon and his forces wind up here. He clearly knows this; he kills indiscriminately and brutally to ensure the trauma they suffer in their last moments results in loss of self and purpose. He knew where the Commander would appear in the afterlife, and he had his magic active in the Domain to claim the soul and make the Commander his mindless servant.

I don't think you can really tell others if they paid attention to the story and then factually say he KNEW the commander was in the DotL until they came back - that's an assumption, nothing the story directly tells us, no matter how much you want to see it.

You're also making an assumption that he even WANTED the commander's soul in the first place. Yeah, he says we could have replaced his herald at some point, but we've been constantly trying to thwart him. Other than killing his herald, we also don't really show THAT much danger or worth to him. He downs us easily the first time we face him, and the second time he's toying with us the entire fight with the subtext that he's doing it to bait Aurene out. He now has Aurene and his Beast of War so has no use for the Commander anymore. Other than for bragging rights, he doesn't have a reason to go get us - he's more preoccupied with killing Kralk. Adding the commander to his army doesn't actually strengthen his goal in anyway. Had we remained dead and not in his soul army, he most likely would have succeeded bar Rytlock and Co getting in his way. You can argue that he'd want to make sure we're dead and can never come back, but 1. He seems pretty sure we're dead anyway with his 'IMPOSSIBLE!' line, and 2. We aren't actually that threatening to him thus far.

Also, for someone who can just 'open a portal to the DotL', it's odd he had to get LED THERE in the first place, by an undead lich no doubt. That's what I actually question - he's been alongside Grenth for aeons and had to get led to the domain. Why? You'd imagine that he'd know where it is, and that if anything, implies he can't just open a portal there. Chances are, it's not a place where you can just pop open portals to for whatever reason. And yes, I'm aware we left via a portal but that seems to have been made from the domain itself, not a portal the commander or anyone else made.

The fact is, we know very LITTLE about the domain of the lost and the magic that lingers there. We don't know how Joko led Balthazar there, we don't even SEE the lingering magic snatching souls when we're there, how easily it can snatch spirits, how powerful the lingering magic is or if it's even still there honestly. All we DO know is that there are lost spirits down there, a Judge, an eater of souls, a Joko, and the fact that Balthazar was led there at some point to snatch a bunch of lingering souls and is no longer there.

Also, he's shocked we're alive again in the first place, so let's face it - Balthazar isn't some all seeing, all knowing ex-God. Even after we defeated the Eater of Souls, set free a bunch of souls, and resurrected, he was unknowing, so clearly he doesn't know everything about the DotL or what happens down there. That shows his level of care for the place.

Also, let's leave the ad hominems out and leave ourselves open to discussion rather than believing our own view is the only correct view, yes? We've all made mistakes in what we remember, you included, from the story. Until it's all documented, a lot of what we're doing is trying to remember or having to replay story steps.

In Balthazar's mindset, there was probably two outcomes in the Balthazar-corrupted Domain of the Lost:-you lose all life still left inside you and you just die.-the Eater of Souls eats all life still left inside you and you're probably transformed into Forged.

The Judge had an hypothesis about you making out of here alive, but that was just that - an hypothesis. Balthazar can't possibly know better.

With situations like these, I tend to believe that in order to make a being do things against their will they have to be broken first, rendering them useless (only fit as general cannon-fodder). In life, if the Commander had chosen to join Balthazar, the Commander would have been a great asset. Just pulling the Commander's spirit back and making him/her one of the Forged would then mean Balthazar resurrected either an enemy or a broken spirit. So even if Balthazar would still want the Commander and if he had known where to get him/her, the results wouldn't justify the effort.

What I pointed out was never about Balthaddon being shocked to see the Commander return from the dead, or being an "all seeing, all knowing ex-God." Yes, it was understandable that he was shocked, nothing wrong with that. However, there's enough evidence abound to support the notion that he was very well aware where you'd end up when killed in such a grueling, shocking way. A place from where his magic is still actively hijacking souls into Forged bodies. True, we don't know exactly how, but do we need to know that? The Commander's soul seemed pretty ordinary to me as a generic lost spirit; sure, s/he could fight well, but that was just all those literal XP being inseparable from his/her essence. Point is: nothing extraordinary for that soul-snatching magic to suddenly malfunction.

Also, Balthaddon was very sure of himself that Kralkatorrik's death wouldn't end the world, and it was heavily implied numerous times that he intended to continue his campaign until all Elder Dragons were slain and he claimed their power. At which point everything on Tyria would've become expendable for him, true, but until then he would have needed a strong army with good leadership to fight against all the other races and empires standing between him and the dragons. And then again, he would've likely needed that army as well in the Mists on his quest of vengeance against the gods. In the long-run, adding the Commander's soul to the Forged ranks would have paid off for him - and given the monstrosity they've retconned Balthazar into, he would've fancied the idea of turning his greatest mortal nemesis so far into his most obedient, loyal general.

@Inc.4753 said:With situations like these, I tend to believe that in order to make a being do things against their will they have to be broken first, rendering them useless (only fit as general cannon-fodder). In life, if the Commander had chosen to join Balthazar, the Commander would have been a great asset. Just pulling the Commander's spirit back and making him/her one of the Forged would then mean Balthazar resurrected either an enemy or a broken spirit. So even if Balthazar would still want the Commander and if he had known where to get him/her, the results wouldn't justify the effort.

This is the best explanation I've read so far. If only they would've added a line for him before he kills the Commander, exclaiming that s/he would be such a useful asset, but if broken into a Forged body s/he would lose that special charm that made him/her so relentless... such a shame. Then 'wham'... ball of fiery energies to the face.

@JayMack.8295 said:Also, let's leave the ad hominems out and leave ourselves open to discussion rather than believing our own view is the only correct view, yes? We've all made mistakes in what we remember, you included, from the story. Until it's all documented, a lot of what we're doing is trying to remember or having to replay story steps.

You are right. Apologies for getting carried away a bit and becoming somewhat heated in my phrases.

@Thalador.4218 said:Also, Balthaddon was very sure of himself that Kralkatorrik's death wouldn't end the world, and it was heavily implied numerous times that he intended to continue his campaign until all Elder Dragons were slain and he claimed their power.

Maybe he was less sure that Tyria would survive a third Elder Dragon's death, and more sure that the Elder Dragons would survive Tyria's death (after all, he seems certain that he can escape Tyria's death). Or that Tyria's death would be slow enough, but certain enough with a third Elder Dragon's death, that he could finish his campaign and escape.

@Thalador.4218 said:At which point everything on Tyria would've become expendable for him, true, but until then he would have needed a strong army with good leadership to fight against all the other races and empires standing between him and the dragons. And then again, he would've likely needed that army as well in the Mists on his quest of vengeance against the gods.

Probably not. Very few could stand up against him in Path of Fire. The Forged mostly just did reconnaissance for Balthazar to find Vlast or to keep distractions at bay. With the power of Kralkatorrik, he'd be even more unstoppable. And would probably not even need that army for keeping distractions at bay anymore. The Forged seems more like insurance rather than a necessity. Especially if he knew how to kill the other Elder Dragons.

@Thalador.4218 said:In the long-run, adding the Commander's soul to the Forged ranks would have paid off for him - and given the monstrosity they've retconned Balthazar into, he would've fancied the idea of turning his greatest mortal nemesis so far into his most obedient, loyal general.

Then where's the Forged Menzies that so many people thought would exist? After all, Menzies is far more of a "greatest nemesis" than the Pact Commander, who has been literally just a fly swarming around Balthazar repeatedly. Besides that, during The Sacrifice Balthazar makes it clear he has stopped caring about getting the Pact Commander to work with/for him.

Balthazar has become - whether you want to claim via retcon or character development - an apathetic god of war, rather than an evil god of war or a good god of war. He wants what can benefit him, but not if it's going to be causing trouble. The Herald was already defying Balthazar, and she was less firm in her beliefs than the PC. It's very much possible that Balthazar considered a cut of losses in terms of trying to get the PC to his side by the point he decided to ambush the Commander.

@Thalador.4218 said:Also, Balthaddon was very sure of himself that Kralkatorrik's death wouldn't end the world, and it was heavily implied numerous times that he intended to continue his campaign until all Elder Dragons were slain and he claimed their power. At which point everything on Tyria would've become expendable for him, true, but until then he would have needed a strong army with good leadership to fight against all the other races and empires standing between him and the dragons.The death of the Elder Dragons causing the end of the world doesn't mean that the moment another elder Dragon dies, everyone would just drop dead. All it means is that, with them removed, the cycle of magic would be destroyed, which would eventually cause everything to end. Nothing about what Balthazar did indicated he believed the world wouldn't end, only that it would just end automatically(which nothing ever suggested it would)

Also, he really wouldn't have had to fight through anyone, besides dragon minions, to reach the other Elder Dragons. The only other Elder Dragons alive besides Kralky are Jormag, and Primdordus, and he already knows where Primordus is(in the Ring of Fire where no real opposition exists), and going by Season 3, Jormag isn't too much further north then Bitterfrost, placing him easily within reach, and in area with no real opposition besides Icebrood. And given that the only army that could stand up to him, aka the Pact, is still in shambles after what Modremoth did to their fleet, and with his ability to built portals to the Mists to transport his troops, he would have had no real opposition from anyone but the dragon's minions. He could easily bypass all other nations in his quest. The only real question mark in his plan is bubbles, who we know nothing about really, but none of the races from the deep oceans have any sort of large military that we have seen.

With the power he got from Kralk, on top of the Bloodstone power he already had, he could have very likely just steam rolled the two sleeping elder dragons, and then taken out bubbles in short order, long before the world died. That is if the world dying would even effect him or his army at that point given that they aren't really alive in the normal sense.