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Scrapper is "OP?"

Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

https://clips.twitch.tv/SpookyThirstySushiTebowing

I've been paying attention to Paul's stream (especially against scrappers) as well as Boyce, and a few others. The context of this clip can be seen multiple times throughout the vods.

Scrapper is absolutely overtuned in most 1v1 scenarios, there are clear weaknesses as well.

1 major weakness being it is not able to even decap a node from something that does not already decap it from itself (mesmer distortion) or has no sustain (curses scourge), any of the current meta side noders can perma neutral the point against it sans mesmer without any effort at all. A sword weaver can essentially afk, as an example. There are major threats to it in a plus as well even using it's most defensive options.

As far as it's 1v1s go, it's REALLY good at not dying, but only not dying.

Stop getting trolled by scrapper.

I think it's actually a very useful tool that will be forcing players to rotate correctly or lose. Also comp correctly, or lose.

Comments

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    its not about not dying in 1v1s, it cannot be killed in 1v2, and even 1v3,4 if played correctly

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    Not really providing much context, for all we know that could be a person who just jumped into scrapper as of a day or two before.

    Nobody is saying they have everything, but right now they are REALLY good at one thing, and in the right conditions it is very strong. Conquest mode is about point capturing and holding, a class that can hold 1-2 people or more for a period of time or indefinitely will be very strong, it doesnt need to kill you, just to survive and continue ticking the point, or preventing your team from ticking from that point. This creates uneven fights if the enemy team cant match the same strategy on the opposite point. Rampage is the bunker killer, everyone knows that, nobody contest its strengths after they blow stunbreaker, and even the warrior himself admitted that the scrapper was bad since scrapper should be of the few classes that can straight up face tank it, meaning, the scrapper messed up.

    The only reason people were ok with weaver self-healing-troll-far-stall was because they have no team fight presence or utility, in contrast with scrappeer with its gyros and fields and blasts and boons and barriers and condi conversions which makes them very, very good supports as well, shining both in teamfights and as sidenodders.

  • everyman.4375everyman.4375 Member ✭✭✭

    Let's not forget their ability to secure any rez.

  • Abazigal.3679Abazigal.3679 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    its not about not dying in 1v1s, it cannot be killed in 1v2, and even 1v3,4 if played correctly

    The " if played correctly " is quite the issue.
    I haven't played engi in PvP for years, and i basically almost didn't die once running that build, not even knowing what passives are doing and mostly using skills on recharge in 1v2 1v3's. That was gold league though, but still, i assume the build shouldn't be so easy to perform.

    That being said, the meta might shift because you're basically too dependent on teammates if you do have 2-3 scrappers per team. So far, it's really easy to hold points, but it seems like i rely on hoping enemies are going to 1v3 1v4 me. If they are smart to ignore me or only 1v1, while teammates are doing 3v1 the opposing scrapper, it's lost.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    Not being able to decap 1v1 but can live forever means that most specs won’t decap vs it either. I’m not sure I particularly count this as a weakness.

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Abazigal.3679 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    its not about not dying in 1v1s, it cannot be killed in 1v2, and even 1v3,4 if played correctly

    The " if played correctly " is quite the issue.
    I haven't played engi in PvP for years, and i basically almost didn't die once running that build, not even knowing what passives are doing and mostly using skills on recharge in 1v2 1v3's. That was gold league though, but still, i assume the build shouldn't be so easy to perform.

    That being said, the meta might shift because you're basically too dependent on teammates if you do have 2-3 scrappers per team. So far, it's really easy to hold points, but it seems like i rely on hoping enemies are going to 1v3 1v4 me. If they are smart to ignore me or only 1v1, while teammates are doing 3v1 the opposing scrapper, it's lost.

    In any case, a class that can survive a 1v3 for long time is bad balance! Moreover, It is very useful in teamfights too. The amount of heal, and condi cleanze, its stupidly broken. Have been spoken to top players, all agree that it is broken, and the amount of scrappers showing up also indicates its broken, so please dont defend it. Its not dependable, and makes you look bad.

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Not really providing much context, for all we know that could be a person who just jumped into scrapper as of a day or two before.

    Nobody is saying they have everything, but right now they are REALLY good at one thing, and in the right conditions it is very strong. Conquest mode is about point capturing and holding, a class that can hold 1-2 people or more for a period of time or indefinitely will be very strong, it doesnt need to kill you, just to survive and continue ticking the point, or preventing your team from ticking from that point. This creates uneven fights if the enemy team cant match the same strategy on the opposite point. Rampage is the bunker killer, everyone knows that, nobody contest its strengths after they blow stunbreaker, and even the warrior himself admitted that the scrapper was bad since scrapper should be of the few classes that can straight up face tank it, meaning, the scrapper messed up.

    The only reason people were ok with weaver self-healing-troll-far-stall was because they have no team fight presence or utility, in contrast with scrappeer with its gyros and fields and blasts and boons and barriers and condi conversions which makes them very, very good supports as well, shining both in teamfights and as sidenodders.

    Also, core guard can also tank the rampage to some extent~~

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    its not about not dying in 1v1s, it cannot be killed in 1v2, and even 1v3,4 if played correctly

    This is absolute hyperbole. Watch some vods from both the players I listed earlier, they seem to have ZERO problem winning 1v1 and 1v2+ against scrappers.

    @everyman.4375 said:
    Let's not forget their ability to secure any rez.

    This is also absolute hyperbole.

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Not really providing much context, for all we know that could be a person who just jumped into scrapper as of a day or two before.

    Nobody is saying they have everything, but right now they are REALLY good at one thing, and in the right conditions it is very strong. Conquest mode is about point capturing and holding, a class that can hold 1-2 people or more for a period of time or indefinitely will be very strong, it doesnt need to kill you, just to survive and continue ticking the point, or preventing your team from ticking from that point. This creates uneven fights if the enemy team cant match the same strategy on the opposite point. Rampage is the bunker killer, everyone knows that, nobody contest its strengths after they blow stunbreaker, and even the warrior himself admitted that the scrapper was bad since scrapper should be of the few classes that can straight up face tank it, meaning, the scrapper messed up.

    The only reason people were ok with weaver self-healing-troll-far-stall was because they have no team fight presence or utility, in contrast with scrappeer with its gyros and fields and blasts and boons and barriers and condi conversions which makes them very, very good supports as well, shining both in teamfights and as sidenodders.

    If you want more examples or context feel free to watch the vods of both Paul and Boyce.
    https://clips.twitch.tv/AmusedMistyTubersRiPepperonis
    Here is the Boyce vod:
    Here is the Paul vod:

    I've been reading on the forums "how easy scrapper is to play" as well, so which is it, is it face roll OP easy af to pick up or not? Lots of people are saying they have everything, that they are unkillable, even in this thread alone a person says they CANT be killed even 1v4. "In the right conditions" ANYTHING is strong. There are several builds available right now that hold 1v1 and even 1v2 on sides, and those builds can even secure downs and kills, scrapper is INCAPABLE of killing anything that doesn't actually stand on the point and die, it cannot chase a kill down whatsoever. Against a warrior, there is risk of death to the scrapper, against a rev as well; a rev and tools holo will destroy a scrapper in under 5 seconds and a war rev and tools holo will do it in under 2. There are several things that put enough pressure on the scrapper to pop stealth gyro (instant point neutral) or force the scrapper off the point to heal (slower but sure point neutral). Creating uneven fights is exactly what several other builds do and have done for how long?

  • Vicariuz.1605Vicariuz.1605 Member ✭✭✭

    @Crozame.4098 said:

    In any case, a class that can survive a 1v3 for long time is bad balance! Moreover, It is very useful in teamfights too. The amount of heal, and condi cleanze, its stupidly broken. Have been spoken to top players, all agree that it is broken, and the amount of scrappers showing up also indicates its broken, so please dont defend it. Its not dependable, and makes you look bad.

    It can only survive 1v3 against bad players. You can do that on anything against bad players. Try surviving against actual good players and tell me how it goes...
    As far as "The amount of heal, and condi cleanze, its stupidly broken," do you believe FIREBRAND is over powered?
    "Have been spoken to top players, all agree that it is broken" feel free to watch the clip and vods I linked to know just how wrong you are.
    The number of scrappers is because it's "new" and strong, the amount of hype people like you give it, is the reason why so many people are picking it up. How is this hard to understand?

    " Its not dependable, and makes you look bad." I don't care how I look to subpar players tbh.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:
    1 major weakness being it is not able to even decap a node from something that does not already decap it from itself (mesmer distortion) or has no sustain (curses scourge), any of the current meta side noders can perma neutral the point against it sans mesmer without any effort at all. A sword weaver can essentially afk, as an example. There are major threats to it in a plus as well even using it's most defensive options.

    except this is false when you can build scrapper a certain way (eg. rampage/tornado + blast gyro or throw mine) such that it can win against other bunkers by eventually decapping them with knockbacks and like many have said, it's actually useful in teamfights where as sword weaver can do neither of those. Remove those options first so it's the same as sword weavers or actually make them not so good on sidenodes but great in teamfights then you can claim they're not OP. Just a side note, knockback scrappers counter sword weavers and you literally cannot afk against these or you get decapped fast.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yeah I stood on point as a zerk staff ele and forced the engi to back off lol. they do no damage.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Griever.8150Griever.8150 Member ✭✭✭

    I've been playing it, i love the rework mechanically but yeah numbers are overtuned. Biggest offenders being probably Bulwark Gyro and Purge Gyro.

  • Mthe mystery.4615Mthe mystery.4615 Member ✭✭✭

    The only OP skill about bunker scrapper is the Shroud it gets from the one gyro. I think everyone is over reacting. 1v3? Try playing with players that are actually skilled with the class and PvP. One think about scrapper is it's not heavy on stun breaks. Having a good power chrono against scrapper can be a good counter.

  • Hiki.9310Hiki.9310 Member ✭✭✭

    Some mesmer builds can one shot scrappers.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @Mthe mystery.4615 said:
    Try playing with players that are actually skilled with the class and PvP.

    Ah yes, the dismissing argument of "good players XYZ......", no matter what the argument is, you throw this and suddenly it "negates" any counterargument.

    So lets assume that rank is a rough or at the very least, the only indication of good player skills we currently have, given that P1-P2 are a very, very small sample of the PvP population due to normal bell distribution, which was already confirmed by Ben that PvP rating does show this distribution, then there should be no scrappers in P1-P2 since all good players are there....... yet almost all of my games in P1 have had 2-3 scrappers, up to 4 scrappers in them. If those arent good players in your eyes, I dont know what could possibly be then.

    Hypothetical vs practical, "in theory they should/should not be able to ...." vs whats actually happening in game. Games arent vacuums, almost all arguments I have seen vs mirages, soulbeasts, spellbreakers, holo treat the classes as if they are in a vacumm and the whole game and the 5 members on your team's only goal is to shut down X Y or Z class. Nothing stops the enemy from doing much of the same arguments given agaisnt this "stronger" classes, like ganking, moving around, capping/decap objectives, etc.

    If you are going to throw 'good players" arguments around, back them up, show YOU are a good player yourself and know the answer to this, rather than create these hypothetical exclusive builds for that purpose in these hypothetical situations. Or better yet, dont throw the "good players" argument around and simply give a reasoning of what makes XYZ classes strong/weak/other.

  • Hoodie.1045Hoodie.1045 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, Scrapper isn't overpowered. Just because Bulwark Gyro gives Scrapper about 10.000 barrier, doesn't make it overpowered considering that it only lasts for 5 seconds. Besides, Scrapper is supposed to be good at tanking. Scrapper got the buffs that it not only deserved, but also needed. It was no secret that the gyro's path finding would often times bug out. ArenaNet made the right decision to buff Scrapper by removing the path finding and making them function like wells. This has made scrapper more viable across all game modes, especially PvP and WvW.

    This is the same situation with necromancer. When Scourge was released, it was the only meta build for PvP. It was a way better build than both reaper and core necromancer even before they got buffed. As Scourge kept getting nerfs, balance patch after balance patch Reaper was getting buffed and now it's a viable build to play. The PoF specialization dominated the meta first and now the HoT specialization is starting to pick up the pace.

    Karras

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 9, 2019

    @Hoodie.1045 said:
    No, Scrapper isn't overpowered. Just because Bulwark Gyro gives Scrapper about 10.000 barrier, doesn't make it overpowered considering that it only lasts for 5 seconds. Besides, Scrapper is supposed to be good at tanking. Scrapper got the buffs that it not only deserved, but also needed. It was no secret that the gyro's path finding would often times bug out. ArenaNet made the right decision to buff Scrapper by removing the path finding and making them function like wells. This has made scrapper more viable across all game modes, especially PvP and WvW.

    This is the same situation with necromancer. When Scourge was released, it was the only meta build for PvP. It was a way better build than both reaper and core necromancer even before they got buffed. As Scourge kept getting nerfs, balance patch after balance patch Reaper was getting buffed and now it's a viable build to play. The PoF specialization dominated the meta first and now the HoT specialization is starting to pick up the pace.

    I would say it's overpowered in the sense that it fundamentally alters the gameplay of PvP. Granted -- it's just a really tanky tank, and that's basically it, but it's tanky to the point of almost absurd. Think Full Counter Warrior at launch without the damage, but more sustain.

    That kind of tankiness makes PvP a drudgery. It really is boring that way.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Crozame.4098Crozame.4098 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vicariuz.1605 said:

    @Crozame.4098 said:
    its not about not dying in 1v1s, it cannot be killed in 1v2, and even 1v3,4 if played correctly

    This is absolute hyperbole. Watch some vods from both the players I listed earlier, they seem to have ZERO problem winning 1v1 and 1v2+ against scrappers.

    @everyman.4375 said:
    Let's not forget their ability to secure any rez.

    This is also absolute hyperbole.

    @Fortus.6175 said:
    Not really providing much context, for all we know that could be a person who just jumped into scrapper as of a day or two before.

    Nobody is saying they have everything, but right now they are REALLY good at one thing, and in the right conditions it is very strong. Conquest mode is about point capturing and holding, a class that can hold 1-2 people or more for a period of time or indefinitely will be very strong, it doesnt need to kill you, just to survive and continue ticking the point, or preventing your team from ticking from that point. This creates uneven fights if the enemy team cant match the same strategy on the opposite point. Rampage is the bunker killer, everyone knows that, nobody contest its strengths after they blow stunbreaker, and even the warrior himself admitted that the scrapper was bad since scrapper should be of the few classes that can straight up face tank it, meaning, the scrapper messed up.

    The only reason people were ok with weaver self-healing-troll-far-stall was because they have no team fight presence or utility, in contrast with scrappeer with its gyros and fields and blasts and boons and barriers and condi conversions which makes them very, very good supports as well, shining both in teamfights and as sidenodders.

    If you want more examples or context feel free to watch the vods of both Paul and Boyce.
    https://clips.twitch.tv/AmusedMistyTubersRiPepperonis
    Here is the Boyce vod:
    Here is the Paul vod:

    I've been reading on the forums "how easy scrapper is to play" as well, so which is it, is it face roll OP easy af to pick up or not? Lots of people are saying they have everything, that they are unkillable, even in this thread alone a person says they CANT be killed even 1v4. "In the right conditions" ANYTHING is strong. There are several builds available right now that hold 1v1 and even 1v2 on sides, and those builds can even secure downs and kills, scrapper is INCAPABLE of killing anything that doesn't actually stand on the point and die, it cannot chase a kill down whatsoever. Against a warrior, there is risk of death to the scrapper, against a rev as well; a rev and tools holo will destroy a scrapper in under 5 seconds and a war rev and tools holo will do it in under 2. There are several things that put enough pressure on the scrapper to pop stealth gyro (instant point neutral) or force the scrapper off the point to heal (slower but sure point neutral). Creating uneven fights is exactly what several other builds do and have done for how long?

    It depends on build. And the Boyce argument can be used to any other class mate~~ He is one of the best 1v1ers in this game mate. ANd playing some random scrappers? Moreover, it also depends on the build mate. There are some tankier ones and less tankiers ones.