Stop Complaining About Scrapper, It Isn't OP - Now With Video Proof

Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s. Well... that's how it's supposed to go anyway. CHECK OUT VIDEO AT BOTTOM OF POST

With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

Spellbreaker

• Damage Potential: A "or a sudden S+ for the duration of rampage"
• 1v1 Sustain: A
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"
• Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

Boonbeast or Druid

• Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"
• 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"
• 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"
• Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both
• Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

Chronobunker

• Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"
• 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations
• 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"
• Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"
• Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

Weaver "I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

• Damage Potential: A-
• 1v1 Sustain: A+
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ at best
• Team Fight Potential: B+
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

Scrapper

• Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"
• 1v1 Sustain: S+
• 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"
• Mobility: B at best
• Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again. It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.

Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

@"Phantaram.4816" said:

most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

His thread was titled "SIDE NODING ISN'T FUN" and he's right, it isn't right now. But the community shouldn't be pointing fingers and blaming this all on the Scrapper. Because even if they deleted Scrapper tomorrow, there will still be Tanky Rangers/Weavers/Chronobunkers/Spellbreakers. The problem is within design & balance theory intra-class wide. It is not within Scrapper as an individual class. Stop bullying Scrappers.

Yeah so, pay attention to the Scrapper ganks in this video. By the end of the season, this is what was happening, as meta shifted to less defensive/higher burst roaming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI80zsNaW0M

Yeah poor engies..they had it rough since HoT launch...the gw2 community is wrong once again....they only recently became meta , playable after 4 years since 2015

Are you seriously putting spellbreakers and soulbeast damage in the same category as weaver, A, and putting scrapper 2 categories lower than weaver? I just find it funny that out of all the classes, the only one with a description is the weaver one with the "only good players" argument that gets thrown around so much, as if the class was this humanly unattainable cryptic mystery impossible to play save for a few godly individuals who "magically" bring out this "magical A damage near spellbreaker/soulbeasts level of damage", specially compared with a Rampage, or Wolf pack burst...... Keep in mind that this "tanky" builds for spellbreakers and soulbeasts are actually marauder or paladin, meanwhile eles are using menders or celestial or sage, which baseline do less damage.

Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

Anyways, I just love seeing all the mental juggling people go through to justify certain classes when they are obviously posing a problem at the moment, we had it for mirages, soulbeast, spellbreakers (which all of them are still strong despite the nerfs, which can only point out how much stronger they were before...).

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Scrapper is not OP. It's just another side noder that doesn't die in 1v1s.

With the disappearance of Mirage side node ultra pressure, we are left in the meta now with: Tanky Rangers, Weavers, Chronobunkers, Spellbreakers, and now Scrappers. Nothing kills each other 1v1 unless one player is significantly outplaying the other, someone makes a critical mistake, or they get plused on. And there is so much stability in the game, along with stunbreaks, instant teleports, and fast moving mobility skills, that it is also unlikely that a neutral node would flip one color either way. If a node is won during a side noder vs. side noder, it takes an unbelievably long amount of time. This also means that the side noders, when caught vs. each other, aren't really impacting the game much at all, they just sort end up negating each other's presence. The difference between Ranger vs. Chrono or Ranger vs. Scrapper is null, there is no difference in the outcome of the match. Either situation will result in a neutral node, regardless of if it is Weaver vs. Ranger or Weaver vs. Scrapper. So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Look let's compare conquest attributes, specifically as tied to being a side noder in this current meta:

Spellbreaker

• Damage Potential: A
• 1v1 Sustain: A
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ to A+ "depending on setup"
• Team Fight Potential: B "it only really brings mostly single target DPS and CCs"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: B+ or A- at best "If it can't actually kill the player it is against, it doesn't hold a node quite as well as other side noders"

Boonbeast or Druid

• Damage Potential: A- Boonbeast or C+ or B Druid "Depending on how well the Druid can work his retaliation"
• 1v1 Sustain: A+ Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid is the stronger sustain after nerf"
• 1v2 Sustain: A- Boonbeast or S Druid "Druid has always been better at surviving 1v2s than Soulbeast"
• Mobility: B+ to A+ depending on setup for both
• Team Fight Potential: B- for Boonbeast or B+ for Druid "The Druid can afford to pop team heals from time to time, and stealth stomp/revive"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A Boonbeast or S Druid "This is now, after the nerfs to Boonbeast"

Chronobunker

• Damage Potential: B+ "Mainly due to its CC factor"
• 1v1 Sustain: Honestly it's an S in most situations, as low as a B+ in some counter situations
• 1v2 Sustain: A- "It's not so hot when focused and usually has to leave a node to survive"
• Mobility: B+ or A- "depending on how skills usage is cycled"
• Team Fight Potential: A "The AoE CCs actually bring a lot to the table with coordinated play"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: It's like an A+ or maybe S- 1v1 in most situations, but when 1v2 it goes down to a B+ at best

Weaver "I'm judging this from the very few good Weavers we have out there btw"

• Damage Potential: A-
• 1v1 Sustain: A+
• 1v2 Sustain: B-
• Mobility: B+ at best
• Team Fight Potential: B+
• Sheer Node Holding Power: A+ or B- when focused

Scrapper

• Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"
• 1v1 Sustain: S+
• 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"
• Mobility: B at best
• Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

When you look at it like this, you can see that Scrapper is actually rather balanced. The thing that players are freaking out about, is that we are seeing a real "Bunker" for the first time in a long time. Other Side Noders are hard to kill sure, but they struggle when 1v2 focused and often lose the node while using their survival techniques. What makes the Scrapper a Bunker instead of a Side Noder, is that it can hold 1v2 for a much longer duration of time, before needing to stealth disengage/reset, than the other Side Noders. This is often plenty of time for his team to + him, or fall to him. THIS IS NOTHING NEW, having Bunkers or Scrappers that cannot be killed 1v1. Any of you who are freaking out about this, apparently did not play in the HoT meta. Another reason why I think people are freaking out about Scrapper, is because we just exited a high DPS meta, and sort of instantly landed into a much tankier meta. Again, a meta where a real Bunker has appeared again. It's ok boys, relax. Let the Scrapper mains have their good meta, they've waited a very long time for it.

Pointing all of this out about "how it doesn't matter which side node classes are against each other in 1v1s, no one is going to kill anyone anyway" reminds me of what Phantaram had said in a previous thread posted:

@"Phantaram.4816" said:

most match ups that are against another side noder class/spec just turn into a stalemate. 90% of my time spent in these extremely competitive and close matches of guild wars 2 could have been with my hands not on my keyboard and mouse. Same goes for the guy I was 1v1ing on the side nodes. It meant nothing. We couldn't kill each other. This has been a problem for a long time in guild wars 2 any time the side node meta turns into a tanky mess.

Scrapper is another overly sustain heavy build that didn't need to be as tanky as it was. The complaints come from the fact that no class should be able to permanently stall a 1v2 and 1v3 on a dps amulet (demo, mara) without the need to peel off a point to reset or lessen pressure (I'm speaking from experience, I've done this kind of thing in every game I've played scrapper on). Side noding isn't fun because there are too many builds out there that will never die in a 1v1 scenario whether due to overabundance of healing or damage mitigation. Doesn't matter if the damage is low (btw, if you know how to actually play scrapper and line up skills to hit, you can put some pretty decent damage out there on demolisher without sacrificing too much in sustain/defense due to the fight being centered on point rather than open field where scrapper's damage falls off almost completely) because the point isn't to kill everything ez mode, it's to stall out fights to the point where the enemy has no choice but to dedicate more resources to you. I'm fine with even buffing their damage but they need a sustain nerf. Saying they aren't op because they don't kill things easily is the kind of justification that let chronobunker exist within the game, oversustaining is still overperforming.

Edit for important side note: Saying "they've waited a long time for a strong build" or anything like that is actually the worst kind of justification for something being too strong. That's like saying "let's give thief an immortal bunker build knowingly because they've been waiting since release to have a bunker build".

@"Fortus.6175" Lately I've been calling top players into 1v1 custom arenas, to test things out with all of the new changes. I've been fighting ALL of the classes/builds that are actually viable to use, for the sake of good testing. These are players who are playing their classes at the highest level of efficiency, out of anyone out there. What we do is we start the match, and head to a designated node that is neutral, both say "Go" or "Bow" and then head into a 1v1 on that neutral node, to see who can kill who, or who will eventually get the cap even if no player dies. The grades used as example are mostly from my subjective experiences as Druid vs. All, but also while spectating other players on other classes, while they perform the same kind of 1v1 side node hold tests. Needless to say, the results aren't so rock/paper/scissors as they used to be. Current side noders just don't die vs. each other, and at the best, after some 5 to 10 minute duel, one of them may eventually have slowly taken the cap.

You specifically voice your opinion of how "Weaver damage is so much lower than Spellbreaker or Soulbeast." Let me explain what my basis for the damage potential category means. OK so, the damage potential isn't referencing just raw damage potential, as if players were standing and wailing on a golem that never moved. The damage potential grade category was meant to also implement the idea behind practical damage, or damage that works so to say. Example: Spellbreakers hit a lot harder than Weavers, but Spellbreaker or even Soulbeast attacks are ridiculous telegraphed and much easier to avoid or LOS than a Weaver. Weaver damage when played by a top Ele is much more difficult to avoid if you want to stay on the node and hold it. This is why I graded Ele damage as only slightly lower than Spellbreaker or Soulbeast.

You also comment on Scrapper mobility. My good dude, if you are being ran down by any Scrapper who does not have Rocket Boots or a Rifle, or maybe even both, you're doing something wrong.

@Ario.8964 And if you are not able to 2v1 + down a demolisher/marauder Scrapper with like a Reaper/Herald present, just as quickly as you would anything else, you're doing something wrong.

@"Ario.8964" said:Edit for important side note: Saying "they've waited a long time for a strong build" or anything like that is actually the worst kind of justification for something being too strong. That's like saying "let's give thief an immortal bunker build knowingly because they've been waiting since release to have a bunker build".You gave a good idea about the next elite thief specialization.

Before the battle needs to change talents according to the situation and not engage in rerolling . Due to the fact that the thief can not be a bunker, probably made rerolling in this game... Because of the rerolling this game loses the opportunity to think about the talents before the fight.Rerolling - change the class at the beginning in the fight.

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Yeah, welcome to the forums where reason matters little and whine wins. You want to know where the Scrapper is OP comes from? Players who are not playing the class disliking playing against it.

Scrapper is going to see the same treatment as Mirage, especially if it becomes more popular. Welcome to the other end of the nerf whines.

Do we capitulate to the notion that OP sustain isn't considered op because its not the best damage? Who would want to play Counter Strike, Street Fighter, Halo, Overwatch, etc If you couldn't kill particular class because of sustain?

People just need to accept kill ability on all classes.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

You specifically voice your opinion of how "Weaver damage is so much lower than Spellbreaker or Soulbeast." Let me explain what my basis for the damage potential category means. OK so, the damage potential isn't referencing just raw damage potential, as if players were standing and wailing on a golem that never moved. The damage potential grade category was meant to also implement the idea behind practical damage, or damage that works so to say. Example: Spellbreakers hit a lot harder than Weavers, but Spellbreaker or even Soulbeast attacks are ridiculous telegraphed and much easier to avoid or LOS than a Weaver. Weaver damage when played by a top Ele is much more difficult to avoid if you want to stay on the node and hold it. This is why I graded Ele damage as only slightly lower than Spellbreaker or Soulbeast.   

You specifically said about standing on the point in your post, in what map do we have a single point with obstacles inside of it that you can use to line of sight? Even the ones witht he closest LoS objects, make you lose the point in those 4 seconds. Are you telling me things like Smoke Scale attack (instant), or axe 5 or horn 4 for SoB, or like GS 3 for SpB are less telegraphed than the main forms of damage from weaver like sword fire 2, or any of the REALLY slow casting #3 mixed skills? Are we being serious here, or do I have to pull out wikipedia to show you that not even counting animations, the mere casting time on these weaver abilities compared to the main damage ones on spellbreakers/soulbeasts is actually higher or about the same... But that aside, damage is damage, most points except the large mid one in foefire are only large enough to avoid certain AoEs, if you dont stay on the point for 4 seconds, you lose it, and spellbreakers and soulbeasts will force you out faster than weaver will ever do. Also, please stop throwing the "top ele" argument, good players are good players, bad players are bad players, regardless of build once you have practice, and eles are not some mythical creatures that only a gifted few can "understand". Also, these are my ele credentials if you must:   5.7k games, half of those on ele: https://imgur.com/x8o0Abh (old screenshot, will update soon)rank 88 last season playing ele: https://imgur.com/YMl0cXZmade to legendary twice before: https://imgur.com/u01zY24current rank, could probably go higher but im in the middle of med school tests : ( https://imgur.com/fBhyMyb ) ( https://imgur.com/mLM9lkI )Mind you, this is playing staff tempest, which is considered by many weaker than weaver (and I agree, weaver still offers more damage and sustain, but I dont like how it plays).Also, I would like to know the rank of these supposedly "god eles", and if they reached them playing only or mostly eles.I think i know a thing or two about eles in general. But again, lets not go down the route of dismissing arguments by throwing "good players" as a counterargument. Give me scenarios, builds, and tell me how it plays out. Or make small videos showing these things. I did my part with screenshots.   

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:You also comment on Scrapper mobility. My good dude, if you are being ran down by any Scrapper who does not have Rocket Boots or a Rifle, or maybe even both, you're doing something wrong.

Please lets be polite and not condescending, I think that is the best way to discuss topics without getting personal <3. Unless you yourself are running teleports/superspeed/portals, your speed wont be any faster than the scrapper, and thats what I mean by chasing, if you are just running to mid point from home, he is running behind you at your same speed, and dont forget they have superspeed, and can juke you around with stealth.

I agree, let's stop complaining about scrappers, there's still stuff to nerf on mirage!

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Welp, this is the type of culture ( whine first with no real understanding, with the added Biased post because if it isn't a class you play it deserves to be nerfed ) this community cultivated so, you get what you give.

Scrapper will get the same treatment everyother spec gets when this community notices an outlier.Nerfs with no compensation.

Scrapper healing skills:Bulwark gyro 20cd:

• About 8k barriers + -20% condition dmg + lighting field Where if you do finisher youre healed.Medic gyro + tool belt -20cd about 22cd
  • 5,5k healing + water field + protection -53% incoming dmg with trait + rune oof earth.
  • core guardian, mirage, holo get nerfs in Dmg
  • his block 20cd, make dmg And barrier. Chronos block 30cdNow tell me, how this isnt broken with 20cd healing skills + traits? Okay, scrapper got buff but that short Cd with that healing power with power amulet is Just INSANE. You can kill mirage in 1vs1, you can kill warrior, you can kill soulbeast, you can kill chrono 2vs1 BUT YOU CANT KILL 4vs1 SCRAPPER. Anet should nerf cd to about 35cd in bulwark gyro and medic gyro 25/30cd. Or can destroy gyro like before. Because in plat this looks like. Who capped point first = won.A And okay chrono have 3 skills Where he can make point to cap (signets,f4). Scrapper Just can stay And spam all healing skills and finishers And still kill.

This scapper change sounds great. GJ Anet. I wish they reworked other specs so they can perform their roles better.

@Solori.6025 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:So I'm not understanding where people are coming from with this "Scrapper is OP." It just isn't OP.

Welcome to the ele world

@Aza.2105 said:This scapper change sounds great. GJ Anet. I wish they reworked other specs so they can perform their roles better.

Exactly

@Fortus.6175 said:Please lets be polite and not condescending

Perhaps you should have thought of this before posting your first response.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:Please lets be polite and not condescending

If I sounded condescending, my apologies, didnt mean to, in fact I would appreciate it if you were to bold that part so I can change/remove it <3.

With that being said, whats your answer to everything else in my post?

@"Fortus.6175" said:Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

As an engi main...

I gotta tell you scrapper (and engi in general) is really bad at chasing classes with more mobility. Much of the superspeed in current scrapper builds comes from Shocking Speed, which only triggers when a well (gyro) ends. This is very difficult to time in order to give chase to somebody because you have to activate the gyro 3-4 seconds prior to when you need the superspeed. It's great for keeping up with opponents in the middle of the fight, but you generally won't be able to reliably time it to catch up with someone who's fleeing. The only classes a scrapper will reliably be able to track down will be guardian and necro, the other two slowest classes.

it's' really not that difficult to understand when you up a Specialization just so it can perform like the most Heart of Thorns Ideology in open world, therefore, i do agree that its a basic need to get into the line since there are over still performing Profession that can do much better into that category Core line for example. it is needed because the game is not that as glorious the way it was before and i just have a dose of laughter whenever i read the Role(s) part, because, i cannot do anything about it; and it gives me the kind of un powerness in a team based game where the intention was to fight shoulder to shoulder.

@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"Fortus.6175" said:Not to rain on your parade either, but scrapper's mobility is not any worse than most classes, and can in fact apply superspeed, but even at regular speed, nothing prevents them from literally chasing the person running away from that fight, and not as in chasing to kill, but following them if they leave the node cuz they cant kill the scrapper, and if they turn back because the scrapper left the node, nothing stops the scrapper from moving their mouse around and follow that person back into the point...... You speak of this as if the scrappers would stay in the point AFK if everyone is ignoring them.

And to some extent rev and eles too, unless the rev uses shiro on a nearby enemy, or eles blow their 40 secs stunbreakers for 1 1/2 secs of superspeed or blow a 40 secs lighting flash which i can guarantee you they will rather save given how those are their main ways of surviving anything. Look man, I get you, it is the class you play and we all have biases, I feel that strongly about eles, but sometimes you gotta stay objective. Even if its not reliable, you can still use said superspeed, just like the ele can decide to blow their precious and limited stunbreakers for speed. Thats 4 class + engis themselves, so 5 classes in total that they can keep up with, 5/9 > 50% of the cast, so by itself thats pretty good, that means that you can keep up with more than half of the classes, it is not fair to say they have bad mobility when they do not, specially not compared to necros or guardians that have it ROUGH in that regards, or staff ele, etc.

@"Fortus.6175" Let me see if I can explain this:

1. "You specifically said about standing on the point in your post, in what map do we have a single point with obstacles inside of it that you can use to line of sight? Even the ones witht he closest LoS objects, make you lose the point in those 4 seconds." Aright, when I mean LOSing, I mean doing it very briefly to mitigate any compromising damage that may actually kill you. A good example is Rampage. When a Warrior Rampages, depending on how sneaky he is with it and how long he waits to use it, it can come with dangerous timing. Even as a tanky side noder, if the Warrior is smart and waits to use Rampage until he KNOWS his opponent has been baited of a good portion of its defenses, and he can catch the opponent at like 50% health or lower, then Rampage becomes dangerous. Even a tanky side noder knows not to screw around with a 25 might buffed fury enhanced Rampage if he's low on resources. In this case, a smart side noder jumps off the node and runs around a pole to avoid Rampage gap closers and thrown boulders, then he heads right back to the node. Now usually what happens is the same thing eventually happens to the Warrior. Say a Boonbeast lands a correctly connected axe 5 when the Warrior attempts to sword 3 him against a corner or wall "such as side nodes in Capricorn", this will punish the warrior as the retal will deal him damage from his own attack, the axe 5 will also deal flat damage and the Warrior might be looking at getting caught in a WI at that. So this kind of surprise damage will put the warrior low, and in this case it is dangerous for him to stay on the node vs. the Soulbeast, so he'll have to LOS around an object or something until important skills come off CDs, or maybe he can bait the pet over for an easy burst heal. This is just how it works with sider noder vs. side noder. They go back and forth needing to abort the cap from time to time, to make sure they don't die. This is especially true in 1v2 situations. Now as for your inquiry about my comment regarding LOSing and Spellbreaker vs. Weaver directly, what I meant by that is that things like Rampage are much more easily LOSed. The boulder cannot go through even a thin obstacle, even if a player is standing directly behind it, and the gap closer on Rampage will be negated by even thin walls or even small sudden elevations, which will deny it of it's line of travel "just jump up a little step and it cuts off the gap closer." On the other hand, Weavers have all of these attacks that hit up elevations and AoEs that get you even if you're behind a wall. Many of their attacks are also ranged in general, and they aren't even projectiles to be reflected, they're channels. So these kind of attacks threaten you with actually being hit much more than something that chases you with melee, regardless of your position on even a large node like legacy mid. This is exactly why Fresh Air Eles are notoriously known for being able to kill bunkers, because bunkers have no real damage burst to pressure the Fresh Air, and they just end up rolling around trying to avoid that lightning bolt spam, when it's impossible to completely avoid a ranged channel that never stops spamming. Upon this and aside from burst Eles, most Eles are pumping up smaller more consistent damage than something like a Spellbreaker, which has much larger damage, that comes in intervals. The smaller attrition damage that pumps out from Eles is just harder to avoid. The Spellbreaker damage, if you know all the little tricks of a class and play it effectively, is easier to avoid. Again, although in the end I agree that Spellbreaker deals more damage than Weaver, a well played Weaver that knows how to sustain while staying in your hitbox while pumping out all of that small consistent damage, ends up dealing only slightly less damage than the Spellbreaker. That's what I meant by "Easier to LOS."
2. About this: "Also, please stop throwing the "top ele" argument, good players are good players, bad players are bad players, regardless of build once you have practice, and eles are not some mythical creatures that only a gifted few can "understand"" I agree but I also disagree. What the top players are capable of doing, is something that even good players aren't doing. I see this difference each and every time I play vs. a top player in an AT, and then play vs. a good player in a ranked match. Top players know when to hit you, they know when to run even if it's for a short disengage/reset, and they know if it's safe to come back or not. They also know how to pick & choose what they should allow to hit them, and what absolutely needs to be avoided. So essentially they are optimizing the use of defensive CDs, and sometimes purposely allow themselves to get hit, because they know the defense CD will be more important to use vs. some inc CC that they know is about to happen. They're so good at this due to rehearsed knowledge of a meta, that 99% of the time, their decisions work out well. When a top player is using Ele like this, they are able to sacrifice a bit of defense for a bit more damage. When a player is truly excellent at staying on top of your head, while only using defensive CDs for what is important, that bit of sacrifice in defense for a bit more damage, starts to go a long way. That's all I meant by the difference between top Eles and good Eles.

Scrapper is ridic right now

Or, or, or...

Maybe everything is power creeped and everything needs toned down.

idk what all the fuss about, looks like bunker chrono 0.5 beta version. very very budget one

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Scrapper

• Damage Potential: C at best "It also has no chase potential. A Scrapper will not be able to chase and kill you, if you just wisen up an leave"
• 1v1 Sustain: S+
• 1v2 Sustain: S+ regarding mitigating raw damage or A- regarding being able to avoid it "there are better kiters out there"
• Mobility: B at best
• Team Fight Potential: A "Not quite as important as a FB support, but it does bring other factors to a team fight, despite its low damage"
• Sheer Node Holding Power: S+ in 1v1, S- when 2v1'd focused. The Scrapper, although it can survive through the use of sneak gyro, will lose a node when it must do a somewhat elongated stealth disengage/reset.

I'd be inclined to agree with you that scrapper may be balanced if the main game type was not conquest.

The difference between everything else mentioned vs scrapper, besides yes they can do more damage or offer more in team fight, is that all of them can be reliably pushed off point 1v1 by out playing them and making good trades. While 2v1s are almost a guarantee push but they have a chance to sustain till back up arrives. Scrapper by comparison for very little effort forces the point to go unpressured.

At the end of the day an over abundance of sustain will ALWAYS be the most unhealthy and overpowered thing in conquest. Getting a free "leave this point now because I'm here" is not healthy, good design, or good game play.

How is chrono's node holding power a A+ ? You'll lose the node just by using your spells.