Gyro balance and design ideas

The changes in general are good and now gyros are more valuable in all game modes and better suited for situations where there's lots of cleave damage.But bulwark and stealth gyro are really problematic right now and they aren't as interesting as they could be in my opinion.

• Bulwark Gyro currently is overperforming in 1vX situations. While in teamfights you need to use it carefully, when you're on your own it's an easy big barrier for an extended amount of time. You need only click it off CD and you're fine. That's a real flaw with it's current design. I'd prefer if it applied a barrier and an Aegis initially, while the pulsing barrier only happens according to the number of allies around you. If you're by yourself there are no pulses, per ally it pulses ~300 barrier per second and if you're surrounded by 5 allies it pulses for the maximum amount of 1.5k.

• The new Stealth Gyro isn't a well designed skill. It now is but a very long stealth without specific counterplay to it. Plain boring! My suggestion would be to combine the best of both designs: You spawn a stealth gyro (that can't be stealthed and follows you) on use, but the stealth pulses on you instead. And when the gyro gets destroyed you're revealed. (edit) Alternatively the field would just stop pulsing once the gyro's gone without you being revealed right away.

@mixxed.5862 said:

• The new Stealth Gyro isn't a well designed skill. It now is but a very long stealth without specific counterplay to it.It has counterplay, another scrapper with reveal. Its not the scrappers fault you're not running scrapper.

make the barrier bulwark gives dependent on how many allies are nearby

i doubt anet is ever going to adres the issues with stealth in general so they'll just nerf it into oblivion

Regarding the bulwark gyro suggestion...if the allies come inside when it is already activated since a few seconds, you're still getting the damage from all of them. Without the barrier they should have provided before. That said, if you want to complain about the barrier in 1vsX situations, it's not like making the scrapper susceptible to death due to other people' errors is a good design either - since the scrapper can die if some allies are burst down (and in WvW it happens). Let alone the bugs associated with that damage sharing (you share damage from walls and gates, too). Also, while the amount of barrier provided is high...we're talking about builds with high healing power, of course it is high, it scales with that.

If they want to make it less good in 1vsX situations and don't kill the engineer for other people' errors, just make it pulse barrier to both engineer and allies, and change the amount of barriers provided according to that.

Regarding the Sneak Gyro, i just can't understand the complaining. It's strong? Yeah, well, it's an elite skill, it sure should be. What's the point of comparing it with Shadow Refuge as i've seen many people do? That's an utility skill, not an elite.We could compare it with Mass Invisibility, at most. The amount of stealth of this one is quite shorter, but given in a single pulse (and can be extended via a trait, that also provides boon for every seconds spent in stealth). Cooldown is higher, but can be lowered via a trait (bringing it to 72s). Covers a larger area and, most importantly, targets 10 people. More suited for WvW, rather than PvP, but that doesn't mean it's less good.I've seen many suggestions for Sneak Gyro. Most of which boil down to "make it so you can see the gyro so that you know there are people there". You even suggest to make it destructible to reveal people.You want a stealth that gives away your position and that can be easily nullified. It worked like that before and no one bothered with it...because it was a terrible idea to start with, let alone for an elite skill. It's stealth, enemies are not supposed to know where you are to begin with. It gives no counterplay? Well, that's what people complain all the time about thieves or mesmers using stealth, and both are still there.

Don't like stealth? Fine, obliterate that gyro and just give a different skill then. Just don't ask to make it useless yet again.

@"Manuhell.2759" said:Regarding the bulwark gyro suggestion...if the allies come inside when it is already activated since a few seconds, you're still getting the damage from all of them. Without the barrier they should have provided before. That said, if you want to complain about the barrier in 1vsX situations, it's not like making the scrapper susceptible to death due to other people' errors is a good design either - since the scrapper can die if some allies are burst down (and in WvW it happens). Let alone the bugs associated with that damage sharing (you share damage from walls and gates, too). Also, while the amount of barrier provided is high...we're talking about builds with high healing power, of course it is high, it scales with that.

If they want to make it less good in 1vsX situations and don't kill the engineer for other people' errors, just make it pulse barrier to both engineer and allies, and change the amount of barriers provided according to that.

Regarding the Sneak Gyro, i just can't understand the complaining. It's strong? Yeah, well, it's an elite skill, it sure should be. What's the point of comparing it with Shadow Refuge as i've seen many people do? That's an utility skill, not an elite.We could compare it with Mass Invisibility, at most. The amount of stealth of this one is quite shorter, but given in a single pulse (and can be extended via a trait, that also provides boon for every seconds spent in stealth). Cooldown is higher, but can be lowered via a trait (bringing it to 72s). Covers a larger area and, most importantly, targets 10 people. More suited for WvW, rather than PvP, but that doesn't mean it's less good.I've seen many suggestions for Sneak Gyro. Most of which boil down to "make it so you can see the gyro so that you know there are people there". You even suggest to make it destructible to reveal people.You want a stealth that gives away your position and that can be easily nullified. It worked like that before and no one bothered with it...because it was a terrible idea to start with, let alone for an elite skill. It's stealth, enemies are not supposed to know where you are to begin with. It gives no counterplay? Well, that's what people complain all the time about thieves or mesmers using stealth, and both are still there.

Don't like stealth? Fine, obliterate that gyro and just give a different skill then. Just don't ask to make it useless yet again.

First off: Your completely missing the point. This isn't a complaint about "op kitten". It's simply two ideas to make the use of these two gyros more interesting, skillful and provide counterplay to the stealth gyro specifically. It needs counterplay because otherwise such a long invisibility duration on a short cooldown isn't consistent design.

I strongly disagree with the notion that stealth gyro was useless before. Only it wasn't always keeping up. Same thing would be true for the new stealth gyro I suggested btw. It wouldn't give away your exact position because I agree that'd be a little stupid. It'd only give a general direction, indicate that the scrapper is in the vicinity and roughly where he is going and it'd serve for counterplay. The reveal part is just an idea and yeah... in WvW you'd often be revealed very fast. Alternatively the field would just stop pulsing once the gyro's gone. (I edited the op.)

As for the bulwark gyro: The aegis is meant to make up for part of the loss of barrier. Aegis is best used reactively to negate big hits. Because with the way the gyro currently works there's no reason to save the cooldown for later in a 1v1. All there is to this skill in a 1v1 is pressing that button off cooldown for maximum efficiency. That's not fun...My suggestions simply aren't about flat out nerfing. Heck compensate for it with a larger initial barrier on top of the aegis and increase the barrier tick per ally to 1k per second for all I care!

I just want utility skills that are best used in a skillful way. In a way that provides play instead of just being a button pressed every 25 seconds. I like the new blast gyro for example. You can play around the charge up to lock your enemy into it and knock them off point. If you pull it off you get the decap.

Tldr; My issue with Scrapper isn't that it's op, I dislike that these two gyros are kitten boring to play and play against.

@mixxed.5862 said:

• Bulwark Gyro currently is overperforming in 1vX situations.

• The new Stealth Gyro isn't a well designed skill. It now is but a very long stealth without specific counterplay to it. Plain boring!

Yes, Bulwark is very strong right now with 7.5+k barrier every 20s without a cast time. On the other Hand, if you have a block skill for 2s with 20s cast time it can easily mitigate the same amount of damage even in 1v1 (e.g. tool kit skill 4), the addition you have is a nice toolbelt skill coming with it.

Stealth gyro is not hard to Play, yes. However, there is a lot of counterplay to it, you have revenants, engis, Guardians that can either prevent you from stealthing or reveal you, and it can be interrupted. Additionally you have the marked mechanic etc. However, IF your stealth gyro Comes through, it is an easy escape. So it probably could make sense to make the stealth gyro itself visible, but not attackable.

@Prinzsecond.4863 said:

@mixxed.5862 said:

• Bulwark Gyro currently is overperforming in 1vX situations.

• The new Stealth Gyro isn't a well designed skill. It now is but a very long stealth without specific counterplay to it. Plain boring!

The diffrence is currently that you need to time a 2s block right to mitigate 8k damage. With the bulwark gyro that isn't really the case because the barrier lasts very long.Yes, you can reveal the Scrapper the moment he enters stealth or with Detection Pulse later on. Like with every other stealth skill in the game. But still that doesn't justify stealth for 18 seconds on a 45 second cd. If they don't rework it to give it more counterplay they'll eventually nerf it hard, I'm sure of it.

@"mixxed.5862" said:

The diffrence is currently that you need to time a 2s block right to mitigate 8k damage. With the bulwark gyro that isn't really the case because the barrier lasts very long.Yes, you can reveal the Scrapper the moment he enters stealth or with Detection Pulse later on. Like with every other stealth skill in the game. But still that doesn't justify stealth for 18 seconds on a 45 second cd. If they don't rework it to give it more counterplay they'll eventually nerf it hard, I'm sure of it.

Right, barrier lasts 5 seconds. AND the scrapper can attack while having it, during the block he cannot (except the holo Utility block for 3s). However, blocking "scales" with the amount of enemies you have -> more enemies = more damage mitigated while bulwark always provides the 7.5k which melts right away against 2-3 oponents, so if you manage the Timing, blocking is IMO better. Also, if timed right, blocking can avoid CC (e.g. against holo #5) while bulwark cannot. But generally yes, in 1v1 bulwark is veery strong. IMHO this weakens as soon as you have 2 or more enemies. I still don't think it should be adapted, maybe add a cast time of 1/2 or something like that?

Trapper ranger also has a looot of invis (with the rune) and we don't have to talk about thieves at all regarding this issue, and they do not have to use up an elite Slot for that. But you're probably right that the stealth gyro will probably get a nerv, i.e. reduced Duration. But, tbh, even if nerved by 1/3 of its Duration, i.e. from 18s to 12s, it is still more than enough to escape. Even 9s allow you to get OOF and Mount up.

@"mixxed.5862" said:

First off: Your completely missing the point. This isn't a complaint about "op kitten". It's simply two ideas to make the use of these two gyros more interesting, skillful and provide counterplay to the stealth gyro specifically. It needs counterplay because otherwise such a long invisibility duration on a short cooldown isn't consistent design.

I strongly disagree with the notion that stealth gyro was useless before. Only it wasn't always keeping up. Same thing would be true for the new stealth gyro I suggested btw. It wouldn't give away your exact position because I agree that'd be a little stupid. It'd only give a general direction, indicate that the scrapper is in the vicinity and roughly where he is going and it'd serve for counterplay. The reveal part is just an idea and yeah... in WvW you'd often be revealed very fast. Alternatively the field would just stop pulsing once the gyro's gone. (I edited the op.)

As for the bulwark gyro: The aegis is meant to make up for part of the loss of barrier. Aegis is best used reactively to negate big hits. Because with the way the gyro currently works there's no reason to save the cooldown for later in a 1v1. All there is to this skill in a 1v1 is pressing that button off cooldown for maximum efficiency. That's not fun...My suggestions simply aren't about flat out nerfing. Heck compensate for it with a larger initial barrier on top of the aegis and increase the barrier tick per ally to 1k per second for all I care!

I just want utility skills that are best used in a skillful way. In a way that provides play instead of just being a button pressed every 25 seconds. I like the new blast gyro for example. You can play around the charge up to lock your enemy into it and knock them off point. If you pull it off you get the decap.

Tldr; My issue with Scrapper isn't that it's op, I dislike that these two gyros are kitten boring to play and play against.

Your suggestions are all about your experiences in pvp, but such changes would impact them in every other mode as well. Changes suited to PvP aren't necessarily suited to other modes.In PvP and when alone, Bulwark may be strong indeed. In WvW, when the fight is among zergs, it may end up as a liability. The scrapper has no counterplay for the damage received from it, and there is nothing skillful to begin with there, cause you can't control what your allies are doing. That's not fun either.And that's why i suggested to scrap away the whole "take a part of allies' damage" and just make it simply pulse barriers to you and allies (obviously the amount would have to be rebalanced compared to now, since you aren't getting damaged by allies anymore).

Regarding the Sneak Gyro, again, that's just how stealth works in this game. All it does is making you invisible. To give counterplay the enemy should know there is something to begin with, and that directly runs against the very function of stealth.That's why people just didn't bother with Sneak Gyro before, and why your suggestion makes no sense. In PvP knowing you're around a certain area may be no issue, but if i try to do that in WvW all it happens is that me and the other four people are becoming free food for an enemy zerg due to the sheer difference in numbers.It is an elite skill whose only purpose is giving stealth and a field to slightly prolong such stealth to a small amount of allies, and you're asking to make that stealth meaningless because you're against the concept of stealth itself.Just change the skill in something else that doesn't have anything to do with stealth then, instead of making it yet again useless.

That said, the rework made most gyros skills with simple and straightforward effects. Of course they feel boring. But as long as they do their work, i'm fine with it.That's already more than i can say for most of the engineer skills, after all. Cause they said the same things about turrets, and they're been nerfed to the floor and left to take dust. I have no intention of seeing it happen again.

Speaking from a purely PvE perspective, the proposed changes are not warranted since the skills in question are not overpowered and the counter play argument makes no sense here. Whether or not they are boring is also not a valid reason to change them. They finally work now and provide some utility, something that they didn't do before.

This is how gyros should have worked from the beginning. Thanks for removing the stupid minion ki.

From my wvw small scale experience (I guess there is a bigger issue in PvP tho):

Stealth gyro is pretty useful and great it's basically a better shadow refugee and that's all right.I think an increased cool down up to 60sec and a reduction to 5 pulses would be fine.I could also imagine an initial invisible for 5 sec and then a pulsing blind in an aoe instead, on the current CD.Good timed or some effect reveals can still counter it like like dh Spears, sick em or glintsvaoe reveal. but yes it's ironically that the best counter is probably another scrapper with a stealth gyro.

While I also thought bulwark is pretty open first, after a few days of getting a reminder that there are many classes out there that hit 10k hits even with 2700 armor and 10% DMG reduction food. I'm currently actually absolutely fine with it. Maybe a slight CD increase up to 25sec. Imo a initial aoe protection and then a pulsing barrier shared to allies would be nicer. Like 5 sec protection and 700 barrier per pulse (without healing power).

Blast gyro is nice with it's might and the toolbelt, but for that 3sec dodge indicator the damage is underwhelming. Maybe because I expected it.to be more of a burst nature. Also knocking enemies away while wielding a melee weapon always feels bad.

The Purge gyros condi cleanse is strong and awesome, could also be increased to 25sec CD. Unfortunately I rarely can spend a slot for it.

The healing gyro is fantastic and has great trait synergy. Finally a competitive to the healing turret.

Overall the defense is immense when running alchy and inventions, but this comes at a great cost in the offense. Good and offensive Necros, rangers or thief's can still kill me quicky if I'm not very very careful. necrs executioner scythe + gravedigger easily two shots me and also daredevils staff 5 can still easily hit 12,5k. So tanking them isn't an option. overall I think from a wvw perspective it's in a good spot and I would expect slightly nerfs.

@NeroBoron.7285 said:Stealth gyro is pretty useful and great it's basically a better shadow refugee and that's all right.I think an increased cool down up to 60sec and a reduction to 5 pulses would be fine.I could also imagine an initial invisible for 5 sec and then a pulsing blind in an aoe instead, on the current CD.

That's an interesting suggestion imo.

@"NeroBoron.7285" said:I think an increased cool down up to 60sec and a reduction to 5 pulses would be fine.Increasing cooldowns is what makes an action MMO unfun and what plagues many other boring builds in the game - and it's lazy balancing that Anet always go completely overboard with, such as the illusionary ambush 20->35s nerf. If you even try to imply that Anet will do this... you're going to see an 80-120s cooldown. At least. I assure you.

What makes for fun gameplay is shorter, reactionary cooldowns that has impact in the moment. IE keep the cooldown on the gyro, but lower the duration of the stealth considerably. I honestly cant see why more than ~3s of basic uncomboed stealth after smoke field expiration is "needed" outside of running away from people. After all the point of its strength is supposed to be the smoke field now and working with combos and mates to extend stealth, right? At least I think so. And dont get me wrong - I love how the gyro is now. But it is strong. Very, very strong. Saw that from the first time I used it after the patch.

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@NeroBoron.7285 said:I think an increased cool down up to 60sec and a reduction to 5 pulses would be fine.Increasing cooldowns is what makes an action MMO

unfun

and what plagues many other boring builds in the game - and it's lazy balancing that Anet always go completely overboard with, such as the illusionary ambush 20->35s nerf. If you even

try

to imply that Anet will do this... you're going to see an 80-120s cooldown. At least. I assure you.

Good. An 80 second cooldown would be completely justified for the skill. Mass Invisibility on mesmer gives 5 seconds of Stealth with a cooldown of 90 seconds, and with a whopping 1,75 second cast time, it can never be used as a reliable escape skill. Even if the Mesmer traits for it, Scrappers stealth lasts at least twice as long.Or would you rather they drop MI cooldown to 45 seconds and shave the cast time in half?

@Yannir.4132 said:Good. An 80 second cooldown would be completely justified for the skill. Mass Invisibility on mesmer gives 5 seconds of Stealth with a cooldown of 90 seconds, and with a whopping 1,75 second cast time, it can never be used as a reliable escape skill. Even if the Mesmer traits for it, Scrappers stealth lasts at least twice as long.Or would you rather they drop MI cooldown to 45 seconds and shave the cast time in half?If it offered say 3s stealth instead of 5s then fuck yeah I would consider taking a 45s MI over jaunt. Hell, make it 40s and it might even be a good elite! Not as good as the gyro, but still.

We dont have to make a good skills crap just because another skill is already crap. That's kitten balancing.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@NeroBoron.7285 said:I think an increased cool down up to 60sec and a reduction to 5 pulses would be fine.Increasing cooldowns is what makes an action MMO

unfun

and what plagues many other boring builds in the game - and it's lazy balancing that Anet always go completely overboard with, such as the illusionary ambush 20->35s nerf. If you even

try

to imply that Anet will do this... you're going to see an 80-120s cooldown. At least. I assure you.

Mass Invisibility targets 10 players, though, and acts in a far larger radius. The cooldown can be reduced to 72s when traited, the duration of stealth can be slightly increased and the mesmer can get random boons while stealthed. And the stealth is given in a single pulse, whereas the scrapper and their 4 allies must stay near together for 5 seconds to get the full amount of stealth (so part of the time is spent being stuck near the scrapper).They aren't meant to work alike to begin with. But even if we were to consider the scrapper skill stronger...it would still be fine. That's how engineers make up for the second weapon (and before someone comes up with the toolbelt - no, they're still balanced along with their utility, and in the sneak gyro's case it is an extremely situational one; besides, other classes have got F-skills as well, and it's not like they give up any weapon slot for those).

@"Manuhell.2759" said:Mass Invisibility targets 10 players, though, and acts in a far larger radius. The cooldown can be reduced to 72s when traited, the duration of stealth can be slightly increased and the mesmer can get random boons while stealthed. And the stealth is given in a single pulse, whereas the scrapper and their 4 allies must stay near together for 5 seconds to get the full amount of stealth (so part of the time is spent being stuck near the scrapper).They aren't meant to work alike to begin with. But even if we were to consider the scrapper skill stronger...it would still be fine. That's how engineers make up for the second weapon (and before someone comes up with the toolbelt - no, they're still balanced along with their utility, and in the sneak gyro's case it is an extremely situational one; besides, other classes have got F-skills as well, and it's not like they give up any weapon slot for those).

Thank you for this. Sure the CD is on the lower end, but it is not that imbalanced as many ppl say, it is just easy to Play.The only Thing that makes MI "worse" IMO is the 1.75s cast time, which is on the other hand, easier to cast for a mesmer than for a scrapper.