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Riptide holds back sword so much it might need nerfing


Gokil.2543

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Hear me out here. I know it's pretty much everyone's favourite skill on sword, but we can never expect to be the 'high risk high reward, highly offensive elite spec (Karl's words), as long as this skill remains untouched.

Riptide (water 2) is:

  • The longest evade skill in game, beating out pistol whip and unrelenting assault

  • The highest total healing weapon skill in the game, beating out geyser while having a much lower cooldown. (Also currently bugged to heal about double what is listed). On mender's amulet it literally offers more healing/s than any actual heal skill (GoEH, SoR,...) we have. Well over 6k every 12s

  • A water field that's hard not to combo twice or at least twice out of. On sw/f you have 4 total finishers, on sw/d 5, +1 for evasive arcana if you run it.

  • Grants regen (twice? Not sure cant test atm). Meaning cleansing water proc.

I don't see how anything with respectable pressure and cleanse could be allowed to have an effective 8k+ heal on a 1,75s evade skill on a 12s cooldown( 9,6 traited). It's not really a problem yet, since we have abysmal damage pressure, but it might hold us back from ever being able to get some on sword.

If anyone has fought as or against a moderately tanky sw/d water arcane build, you'll know it stalemates versus virtually anything. Just your cookie cutter durability mussels gnashblade D/D build with cleansing/energy is faaaar tankier than DD ever was. Spammable healing ripple due to global attunement CD is quite formidable defensively, as are earth 2 and twist of fate evade frames. But water 2 is borderline absurd. And I haven't even mentioned barrier yet, which unlike the general sentiment on this forum, is really quite effective at mitigating what little damage you're not evading.

Long post, but I think it would be a real shame if weaver ends up being another x years of wet noodle sustain bot. I'd love to be the risky but threatening diver. Thanks for reading.

Some quick suggestions:

Bring healing down to listed value at least, half healing power coefficient, remove evade frames entirely (needs to be interruptible), make it move substantially further and faster so it can still serve well defensively, double the damage of all sword dual skills straight up. Speed up sword autos by 20% and make them continue chaining after attunement swap. (Very quick and rough ideas, not gonna comment on traits yet)

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I have not seen a 6k heal when using sword-2 in water -- is your gear heavy in healing power? Building tanky means your DPS side should be pretty low to compensate. If you're counting blasts in your total healing then that is not accurate analysis of the skill. Any water field will generate the same results at that point (and you're consuming other skills to make the combo happen -- that's balance).

That being said, I would not lower the healing power coefficient because that makes the healing power gear more meaningful. Otherwise DPS builds get the same healing as tanky builds.

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The 6k is on mender's amulet as the post mentions. On 0 healing power it's still almost 4k. Not counting the regen or the combo finishers, again as mentioned in the post.

Making the skill less effective on tanky builds is exactly the intention of reducing the healing power coefficient, and it will probably still not be enough, since the spec will probably still have the single best healing power coefficient/s in the game when adding up all the sources of scaling.

To some extent this post assumes that sword weaver should be offensively slanted rather than becoming to mainhands what focus is to offhands. This was made pretty clear in the weaver section of the livestream. The only role ele has ever filled in high level pvp is either dedicated healer or bunker/bruiser point holder, also focused heavily on healing. I and many others crave something distinctly different.

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@juno.1840 said:Well maybe the 2x healing bug should be fixed before we call for nerfs. That takes your 6k down to 3k which is quite a bit more reasonable, don't you agree?

I agree it's a bit more reasonable, I disagree it fixes the problem I'm trying to adress. Sword will never become a respectable offensive weapon as long as it's so stacked defensively. You're still ignoring the near 2s evade frame, the water field, and even when halved, the high healing. Compare it to what dagger offers, and then consider that even dagger was and is prone to being used on support or bunker builds exclusively. Without water field, with negligible healing and evasion.

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It may be the only good skill on the sword. I would say anet it self is holding back the weaver sword when you see the dmg of other class.

But here the thing are you talking about pve (as a water field there and a long evasion is mostly pointless) in wvw / spvp it has a use but the dmg out put is not worth running not due to the sword it self but to how weaver works and how it comply dose not fit the ideal of a chain attk as well as getting to the big hitting doable atument part of the sword (3 skills for the base sword and not just duel attks).

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The sword under performs in the "high risk / high reward" because the elite spec and the weapon were designed to give the ele survivability through face tanking (buffing what ele already did well with vit and barrier) and also adding evade skills to it (which again is how we survived with perma vigor and sigil of energy)

So the devs probably got worried that we would have the survivability of a ministrel tempest and the damage of a firebrand.

The sword would be better served with mobility (more shadow steps and in and out mechanics) but also more burst typed skills (that make you play as a skirmish class and not as a "in your face class".

Face tanking style was a bad move to add to ele to survive as a Weaver - it is the same thing that makes ministral tempest nigh unkillable

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Seems it's fixed? I just tested it and the healing seems fine. ~900 healing power, 800ish tooltip and getting heals slightly above that. Only one application of regen for 5 sec (I coulda sworn it used to be multiple applications, so all good there).

Popped into the pvp area for a bit and numbers are consistent with the tooltip.

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Nope in wvw and pve even with 800 healing power sword 2 is only heal 1.5k hp. Are yuo thinking about the factors when attune to water and than casting that at the same time. That would be around 3.3k if you attune with water not including and add a dodge roll which is 2.1k. So if you run arcane water and weaver. Attune to water, dodge roll and sword 2 that's around 5.4k healing. So I think you are confused. I suggest trying again!

Also sword lacks damage 1v1 a d/d core ele running fire, arcane and water can easily over power and push it back. There are too many conditions in wvw and that's where it shines with. A druid, chronomancer, spellbreaker or rev can easily out damage and dps the sword weavers. Sword 2 takes the pressure of your opponent unlike the other POF metas that can heal while dish full damage on point.It's the weakest of all the metas.

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.> @Gokil.2543 said:

Hear me out here. I know it's pretty much everyone's favourite skill on sword, but we can never expect to be the 'high risk high reward, highly offensive elite spec (Karl's words), as long as this skill remains untouched.

Can we nerf SB first please ? A 8sec Block / Throw back damage + evasion / Resistance / Daze and copy conditions you have on target.8sec, just 8sec.Calling for a nerf is okay, I do that often, but what does the weaver have ? Our barrier is low, our pure damage is not that great, our range is pathetic and can be avoid by just stepping back, and you want us to lose a good skill ?

Damn I don't know what you're thinking :p

Riptide (water 2) is:

  • The longest evade skill in game, beating out pistol whip and unrelenting assaultFalse ! Daredevil shall never be forgotten D: ! 5 3 3 3 3 5 3 3 3 3 5 3 3 3 3

  • The highest total healing weapon skill in the game, beating out geyser while having a much lower cooldown. (Also currently bugged to heal about double what is listed). On mender's amulet it literally offers more healing/s than any actual heal skill (GoEH, SoR,...) we have. Well over 6k every 12s

  • A water field that's hard not to combo twice or at least twice out of. On sw/f you have 4 total finishers, on sw/d 5, +1 for evasive arcana if you run it.Well hell no, since you don't want to stay in water, so you'll have to wait an entire rotation if you're playing your weaver correctly.If you stay in water, then you're pretty much dead ;) No pressure = you'll be the one to feel the pressure

  • Grants regen (twice? Not sure cant test atm). Meaning cleansing water proc.Just by looking at the current craziness of conditions, I'll take it, ofc, I can pass if you really want to die of 20 stacks of burning, but I thing it's... stoupidos ?

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Riptide

First, if you're playing a full healing power, you're pretty much a useless weaver, and you'll never get 6k healing by just using riptide (true fact, it's not as powerful as you're trying to say, just look at the wiki or go on a weaver and check the info), that means you have to use finisher, and that is not an issue, they want us to make combo, and if you want them to nerf that, then we can nerf, for exemple, the smoke field + leap on thief, as well. Is it an issue? no, it's call, learn to play your class.

Actually, i'm glad the sword has a water field, I can finally sacrifice my arcana line i've been playing since stone age, and actually play the "threatning" elite spec they decide to make and go for a more offensive build. If you remove riptide's own utility, then a LOT of weaver are going to be angry cause they'll have to use evasive arcana once again. Cause other classes are strong aswell ;)Wanna talk about the Holosmith ? I was playing a bunker weaver, and took a 13k.Wanna talk about the Scourge and its better version of barrier ?Wanna talk about the SB and the damage it does while it can be pretty bulky .

I don't see how anything with respectable pressure and cleanse could be allowed to have an effective 8k+ healNow it's 8k+... You really should stick on a number, and stay with that mate :D

Long post, but I think it would be a real shame if weaver ends up being another x years of wet noodle sustain bot. I'd love to be the risky but threatening diver. Thanks for reading.So you're asking for the devs to nerf your own class... it's... strange ?Or maybe you're playing something else, can't beat the weaver and don't want players to find out, wow, such paranoia

Bring healing down to listed value at least, half healing power coefficient, remove evade frames entirely (needs to be interruptible), make it move substantially further and faster so it can still serve well defensively, double the damage of all sword dual skills straight up. Speed up sword autos by 20% and make them continue chaining after attunement swap. (Very quick and rough ideas, not gonna comment on traits yet)yes please, kill the water skills, it's such a shame for the weaver to have a water attunement, better have a useless spam 1 and a useless #2.

That was a good laugh btw, thanks ! :)

Edit: Btw : Riptide is not an immunity skill, and can still be interrupted, if there is any kind of cc on the ground, like a line, or a static, then you'll be cc'ed.

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For clarity, I agree sword weaver is laughably bad right now. I don't really get all these comments comparing it to all the other specs out there.

What I'm getting at is this:

With the ridiculous defense weaver's weapon skills offer, we cannot logically be allowed to do good damage.

The logic is quite simple. Right now, a water arcane sword weaver does not die to anything. It also doesn't kill almost anything. If you want it to be able to kill things, you have to be okay with being able to die to things.

That said, it seems really noone can agree with my point, so I will reconsider it a bit more.

Like all of you I'd just really like to play a decent power sword build.

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First off I am intrigued with your enthusiasm to play devil's advocate in this particular profession forum. I by no means sit on the side that reveres sword on Weaver useless but I would agree wholeheartedly that it is in need of 'some' love.

I can NOT for the life of me replicate the healing from Riptide that you're claiming. Riptide is arguably the lifeblood of any sustain for sword Weaver don't get me wrong, but it seems to be a lot healthier and less bunker contributing than you also claim. Keep in mind that by hovering around in water it severely dampens both our power and condition damage. If i were in charge of balancing sword on Weaver I would start with some coefficient changes that encourage building into damage and less into healing/tank stats. Ie higher power values and not base lines, lower healing value with possibly higher base healing to compensate.

Keep in mind this IS a condition meta after all in almost every game mode. Mastering the weaving of Weaver is tough enough without having to deal with the insane amount of condition application in the game. Riptide won't break that meta anytime soon...

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@Gokil.2543 said:For clarity, I agree sword weaver is laughably bad right now. I don't really get all these comments comparing it to all the other specs out there.

What I'm getting at is this:

With the ridiculous defense weaver's weapon skills offer, we cannot logically be allowed to do good damage.

The logic is quite simple. Right now, a water arcane sword weaver does not die to anything. It also doesn't kill almost anything. If you want it to be able to kill things, you have to be okay with being able to die to things.

That said, it seems really noone can agree with my point, so I will reconsider it a bit more.

Like all of you I'd just really like to play a decent power sword build.

Hey Gokil,

Just wanted to chime in and say I certainly agree with the spirit of your post. The only suggestions I'd disagree with are the removal of the evade frames in their entirety. I think there still needs to be some place left for people to play a bruiser style (think sages) with active defense in mind and, for all its flaws, sword has been a godsend in that regard. Consider that fixing the bug and halving the healing coefficient are, in combination, huge nerfs by themselves. Additionally, the removal of the evade frames on a skill we can't really stow or cancel (unless I'm wrong, because I certainly haven't ever tried to cancel this op evade of ours) would make Riptide a death sentence to cast against any savvy opponent, and that's if you didn't even remove the busted healing it currently outputs.

There's certainly a lot of factors playing into Weaver's spot atm, but your point: "We can't expect to deal immense pressure while surviving nearly indefinitely against almost anything" is something we should all take into account when we ask for buffs to Weaver.

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@Gokil.2543 said:For clarity, I agree sword weaver is laughably bad right now. I don't really get all these comments comparing it to all the other specs out there.

What I'm getting at is this:

With the ridiculous defense weaver's weapon skills offer, we cannot logically be allowed to do good damage.

The logic is quite simple. Right now, a water arcane sword weaver does not die to anything. It also doesn't kill almost anything. If you want it to be able to kill things, you have to be okay with being able to die to things.

That said, it seems really noone can agree with my point, so I will reconsider it a bit more.

Like all of you I'd just really like to play a decent power sword build.

i do get ur point. i dont see those healing numbers u talked about on my wvw weaver and i run healingpower. so maybe theres something off.

i do not get ur point on the evade topic:

  • druid staff long evade low cd + druid astral heal
  • zerker f heal low cd, gs evade
  • daredevil evades, heal low cd + evade, sd, deathblossom
  • blurred frency

i actually think the evade frame is absolutly allright for the other evade frames being oddly short and around the evade frame lightning ride should have got back. they gave it to sord now. ok, i take it. u also forgot that u get some healingpower out of it because of elemental polyphony. so its not like u dont have any healingpower at all.

i do agree that a water arc weaver is hard to kill and doesnt kill. people can just ignore and facetank him esp if it runs focus. for having any impactfull potential u need to give up arcana and therefore protection or the water line condi cleanse. and thats the trait of i see. if u go survival focus/water/arc it's on you. you have the same killing potential as a healbot temp but certainly not the same support.

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I get your point and I only have 1 thing to say.

I haven't tested it yet now that you mentioned it healing for that much but healing numbers aside... Don't you think that a pure melee spec with the lowest base HP and Armor deserves this kind of skill?

I mean thieves and mesmers at least have stealth while Eles have nothing comparable aside from self sustain. If the healing numbers are as you mention, then yes, it needs to be nerfed. But I don't think the evasion frame should be removed. I honestly believe that having more evasion skills will allow us to play a bit more glassier.

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Riptide doesn't need any nerf, it's a defensive skill, it's meant for what it's supposed to do : Defend yourself.Once again, nerfing it would mean destroying the water attunement on sword, there is litterraly no point on doing that, can we close the debate ? thanks

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@Gokil.2543 said:Hear me out here. I know it's pretty much everyone's favourite skill on sword, but we can never expect to be the 'high risk high reward, highly offensive elite spec (Karl's words), as long as this skill remains untouched.

Riptide (water 2) is:

  • The longest evade skill in game, beating out pistol whip and unrelenting assault

  • The highest total healing weapon skill in the game, beating out geyser while having a much lower cooldown. (Also currently bugged to heal about double what is listed). On mender's amulet it literally offers more healing/s than any actual heal skill (GoEH, SoR,...) we have. Well over 6k every 12s

  • A water field that's hard not to combo twice or at least twice out of. On sw/f you have 4 total finishers, on sw/d 5, +1 for evasive arcana if you run it.

  • Grants regen (twice? Not sure cant test atm). Meaning cleansing water proc.

I don't see how anything with respectable pressure and cleanse could be allowed to have an effective 8k+ heal on a 1,75s evade skill on a 12s cooldown( 9,6 traited). It's not really a problem yet, since we have abysmal damage pressure, but it might hold us back from ever being able to get some on sword.

If anyone has fought as or against a moderately tanky sw/d water arcane build, you'll know it stalemates versus virtually anything. Just your cookie cutter durability mussels gnashblade D/D build with cleansing/energy is faaaar tankier than DD ever was. Spammable healing ripple due to global attunement CD is quite formidable defensively, as are earth 2 and twist of fate evade frames. But water 2 is borderline absurd. And I haven't even mentioned barrier yet, which unlike the general sentiment on this forum, is really quite effective at mitigating what little damage you're not evading.

Long post, but I think it would be a real shame if weaver ends up being another x years of wet noodle sustain bot. I'd love to be the risky but threatening diver. Thanks for reading.

Some quick suggestions:

Bring healing down to listed value at least, half healing power coefficient, remove evade frames entirely (needs to be interruptible), make it move substantially further and faster so it can still serve well defensively, double the damage of all sword dual skills straight up. Speed up sword autos by 20% and make them continue chaining after attunement swap. (Very quick and rough ideas, not gonna comment on traits yet)

I am ok with reducing the healing coefficient, you could even remove the healing...but removing the evade it's big NO...without the evades the weaver is virtually nothing and also making it interruptable would make the all spec useless when facing more than one opponent

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Honestly if we can have a trade, and get some serious damage buff on sword, I would be ok to nerf this skill... sword provide already a lot of susistain so would be ok, with sage/mender amulet this skill is crazy.But I would also make a nerf that is more focus on healing power contribution, and a more soft nerf for 0 healing power, without touch the evades frame obviusly

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  • 4 months later...

@"Gokil.2543" said:Only if you blame this thread for the damage buffs we got this same patch.

Worth as kitten

Most of the buffs kinda pointless, the buff to Water 3 means NOTHING as they didnt do anything to fix any of its MANY issues, the damage buffs to sword were pretty poor and it says something that those kinda meaninglessness "buffs" are looked at as great or anything else. They didnt do ANYTHING to fix any of Sword issues, just pointless little buffs that will lead no no real change, a huge nerf on a useful skill and a buff to a skill that is SO poorly designed if you land it against anything they werent moving. you will land it every now and then but most of the time, it will miss.

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