momophily.3814 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 This build: https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scourge_-_Condition_ScourgeAnd those like it are absolutely breaking WvW. Simply put, this completely negates any ability to stay in close range (negating EVERY melee class/build). Not only does it rip Stability, Aegis, Protection and any other sustainable buff; but it flips and corrupts it into a damage. And not only does it make it a damage source, it makes it a high amount of Torment. So you die if you move, No One Stands Still Fighting Other Players! Particularly when in groups like 50 V/S 50, if you stand still then your standing in a bomb of red circles. This is BROKEN in WvW.Please, please balance this. I’m fine with a loss of boons and I appreciate counter play and hard counters. But running this in any kind of large numbers is an instant win for that group. And its inclusion encourages the play of only the Scourge over all other classes. It’s too strong because there is no counter for this. It has already corrupted possible counters for it, and now you’re running with a fear, bleed, torment and burn stack on you. WTF ANet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 While not commenting on the build in general (i think there a bit too much in the way of AOE all round) , The best counter to this is a Ranger or thief at range singling out the scourges for attack. These two classes have been marginalized in Zerg fights. The issue of course is that even if they do manage a down if said Scourge sits inside the Zerg it pretty hard to finish him.This suggests a number of ways to apporach this issue.1>examine downed skills. Dead is dead perhspas or remove rally completely?2>Commaders need to look at getting more ranged builds into the group. (This countered by yet more projectile hate so it catch 22)3>Look at ways of lowering overall AOE in game.4>make slight teaks to Cooldowns on scourge skills.One of the first ways I would approach this is looking at AOE type skills across the board and in particular the ones that persist like marks , wells, traps and the like. I would drop the durations of that persistenceby a percentage which would lead to less of them being spammed in a "fire and forget" manner. This would make the using of the same much more deliberate as I feel they currently stay on the map too long for mana spent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momophily.3814 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 I agree with some of your points, but your not going to "single out" 15 or 20 Scourges? If they're were only 2-3 of them, it wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 @momophily.3814 said:I agree with some of your points, but your not going to "single out" 15 or 20 Scourges? If they're were only 2-3 of them, it wouldn't be nearly as big of an issue issue.You can not make a mechanic that limits the number of Scourges, warriors, Guardians, Renegades ETC that a given group brings to a fight. This is a function of WvW and large scale fights. As you imply one scourge can be easily dealt with but if more are brought what is the counter? Any FIX that is based on those numbers generally leads to the profession in question being useless at a smaller scale.This one reason I thing looking at the persist time of AOE is part of a solution. At the small scale there really not great an impact on a given class if those AOe's do not last as long as fights are a lot more mobile. At the larger scale it my hope there more a tradeoff between mana spent and the impact of said AOE. As is now you can layer entire areas with overlapping AOE and have all manner of resources left for when that enemy group tries to push through it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 Dont worry, they'll fix the scourge just as fast as they fixed reaper deathly chill when it was ruining WvW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momophily.3814 Posted October 2, 2017 Author Share Posted October 2, 2017 I wasn't suggesting a limit to the numbers of any class, I was saying that your suggestion of "singling out" that many is impractical and not a viable solution. The issue is that it corrupts boons at such a high volume into such a high damage Condi, while the class also provides Fear as a hard CC. All three in combination excludes a counter from other players with our current tool kit. I can't stay in the fight because my stab was corrupted, I can't stand still because of the bomb, and I can't run because of Torment, I also can't clear the Condi fast enough and i'm running away from my group in Fear, and the number of stun breaks available is vastly outweighed by how many corrupt applications are available to the Scourge. And that is in isolation, I'm not counting the other classes in that situation. That's why it's broken. Your only current option is to run a dozen of your own Scourge or to run away from them, if you pressure you die.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarox.9601 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 I made scourge just to test things out, did not know any skills what it do just pressing buttons and faceroll things. But it gets boring after a while when ppl start running from you. Pretty borring OP class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EremiteAngel.9765 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 On your point regarding the Scourge being broken, I think what it broke was the previous boonsharing ball playstyle.What we got in return now is more a pirateship meta where two groups just range and wear each other down.Is it impossible to charge into an enemy group now? Not really. I've seen a few organized guild groups do it successfully.Invulnerability is still a thing. Baiting is still a thing. It just requires a lot more coordination and condi clearing to do so.Also, DragonHunter's AOE F3 shield block seems to do a decent job of shielding allies from the Sand Shades' nuking.Working that into a group's composition might be helpful.Personally I dislike the pirateship meta that Scourge seems to have forced the trend of engagement towards though since apart from reset night, the majority of engagements are not led by organized groups.Also, I wouldn't single out that metabattle build because honestly, it looks doubtful and lacks synergy.I wrote out my doubts/queries at the necro forum here if you care to read. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/169148/#Comment_169148 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 The build was obvious from the get go, I remember saying WvW is returning to pirateship meta in the old forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted October 2, 2017 Share Posted October 2, 2017 One thing I have noticed with Scourge is that they don't have as many defensive options compared to their counterparts. Sure they have barrier but that doesnt last that long. In melee they are strong if you dont have good cleanses or resistance, however they are still squish if you are able to and range, stealth and mobilty are still their weakness...no different than reaper tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 @momophily.3814 said:I wasn't suggesting a limit to the numbers of any class, I was saying that your suggestion of "singling out" that many is impractical and not a viable solution. The issue is that it corrupts boons at such a high volume into such a high damage Condi, while the class also provides Fear as a hard CC. All three in combination excludes a counter from other players with our current tool kit. I can't stay in the fight because my stab was corrupted, I can't stand still because of the bomb, and I can't run because of Torment, I also can't clear the Condi fast enough and i'm running away from my group in Fear, and the number of stun breaks available is vastly outweighed by how many corrupt applications are available to the Scourge. And that is in isolation, I'm not counting the other classes in that situation. That's why it's broken. Your only current option is to run a dozen of your own Scourge or to run away from them, if you pressure you die.... Well we speak at cross purposes then. Logic suggests if there 5 rangers and Deadeyes in group and 5 scourges in the second group , the former can kite the scourges and take them all out. When I am talking about "singling them out" a group of Ranged users operating in conjunction with one another at range( JUST as those Scourges do close up,) can focus one, take him out and move to the next. Once enough scourges are downed the melee group can more easily move in.If commanders continue to insist there no role for those ranged users , then there will be no option but to push in to melee to deal wih the Scourges.Again with the projectile hate out there this easier said then done but on my own DE thief I have taken down a number of scourges at range. Our groups are just not coordinated anough to follow this up with a push.If a few rangers or Deadeyes worked together, singling out scourge by scourge and using range to down them that enemy group SHOULD in time run out of scourges.Now the major other problem here is all of that AOE that extends outwards from the enemy group wherein it hard to even get in range with the 1500 range LB and Rifle s that AOE can be cast out way too far and lasts way too long. What goes on now is zergs run in great wide circles around and around each other trying to avoid all of that pre positioned AOE and break up the concentraion of the enemy group so there more stragglers and less mutual support. If you can not or will not take out some of those scourges from range, this circling can go on a long time before there finally an opportunity to move in. That said just as in real world battles of this nature the very fact one can use ranged attacks against an enemy force can help towards that group losing its Cohesion and pushing an enemy when they not ready to do so.In THEORY anyways :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just to add to what I envision and whether this wuld work I do not know.The furthest Ranged persistent AOE can go out should be 900 units. People lay this between an enemy group and themselves. The duration of these wells/traps/marks and the like are also cut so in order to keep them on the field more casts needed.LONG ranged units advance ahead of the main body to maximum range and star singling out scourges and support classes for elimination. If enemy group pushes they fall back and the Frontline troops move in. The enemy force would deploy its own long ranged users to respond. Once one side takes out enough of those scourges or other classes that are proving all of that close melee range support and condition adds the ranged users break off and the heavier melee guys go in.What PREVENTS this now is that the long ranged users (DE and LB rangers in particular) just do not outrange an enemy by enough distance. Those marks and wells and other RANGED AOE type attacks have too much relative range. It MY opinion that if you are using single target ranged attacks versus AOE type ranged attacks, the former should have a much greater range advantage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltreez.6435 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 lol thats literaly my build O.othe only difference is that im using a mix of Trail blazer + Viper full trailblazer not worth it... the extra crit and power dmg waay outclasses that extra small ammount of toughness and vitality trail gives ... its better if its mixed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy.1879 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 really really hard to hit people on a ranger in a zerg as well due to the amount of reflect bubbles and projectile stops available now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangerdeity.5847 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 you wanna know what counters scourges? revenants they have high resistance output high condi clearing and high healing. they can bunker an entire zerg under a door guarded by a greater shade like its no big deal. stop playing your selfish builds and player more support to counter the scourge. in the down side that rev is going to be murdered by a spellbreaker. you see how this works? if your team doesnt have a good mix of all the classes your going to be failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Junkpile.7439 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Just don't zerg. If enemy zerg is full of scourges don't fight against them. Nothing kitten wannabe PvP players more than enemy that doesn't fight. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 lets all reroll scourge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnarox.9601 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 those who defend this broken class will pour tears in next balance patch. remember my words :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 Scourge already got heavy nerfs pre-launch. Players need some time to try and learn the counterplay before things get nerfed again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk.5460 Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 @Dawdler.8521 said:Dont worry, they'll fix the scourge just as fast as they fixed reaper deathly chill when it was ruining WvW.Hue hue hue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Played Scourge for a few minutes.Seems ok.. I still die fast enough when facing more then one opponent.Besides, no more second HP bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galmac.4680 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Sure, just nerf the necro, as usual. Now we don't have a second health bar, and gained instead some more power, and all ppl are screaming for the next nerf.But what's with the spellbreaker, twice invulnerable, can corrupt boones, blocks all the time, makes huge damage all the time. Nerf that first please. THEN talk about necros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justine.6351 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Who could have seen this coming?https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/game/wuv/lolsmallscale/first#post6629723 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seffen.2875 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 Scourge is not broken. Actually i think it is perfectly fine. It is just you beeing bad at large scale fights. There are certain tactics and playstyle that hardcounter scourge. And there are a lot more about to be discovered. Easiest way to Counter Spellbreaker and scourge is just a shitload of stunbreaks and condicleanse.Who got that? dunno. /s But according to your Avatar it is very weird that you dont know.Get a grip of the new Firebrand and you will see, that everything is perfectly fine as Long as you have the same amount of People who are Kind of able to Play their builds. Stop beeing whiny.Improvise. Adapt. Overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted October 5, 2017 Share Posted October 5, 2017 It depends what build/class you play. I have not fuaght many scourge in 1v1 but everyone I have are ofc, condi. I mainly play core s/d thief and even with the ability to port in and out at will, the barriers they use are pretty strong in 1v1's/small scale and become very powerful with support but if they are alone and you have enough dmg they can be focused and bursted down. But they seem to have a bit more condi Presure and corrupts as well than reaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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