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Why did Caithe...? [spoilers]


Daniel Handler.4816

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Caithe said it herself, it was not a corruption, thus it doesn't rewrite her DNA structure unlike those who are corrupted by Mord/Zhaitan. Mord has those blister type of vats where all the DNA rewriting are happening. We destroyed those when we helped the frog folks. Deep in the jungle we find another kind of vats where Mord replicates the captive. Zhaitan rewrites the DNA of the dead, mostly through shortcuts and patches, so they can come to life. Mord is more sophisticated when it comes to corrupting his subjects.

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@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Caithe said it herself, it was not a corruption,

EHHHHHH... Devs outright called it branding in the GuildChat. They stated that Aurene branded Caithe.

It isn't corruption in the sense of Aurene warping and removing Caithe's will. But it is corruption in the sense of, as you put it, "rewriting her DNA structure".

Mord has those blister type of vats where all the DNA rewriting are happening. We destroyed those when we helped the frog folks. Deep in the jungle we find another kind of vats where Mord replicates the captive. Zhaitan rewrites the DNA of the dead, mostly through shortcuts and patches, so they can come to life. Mord is more sophisticated when it comes to corrupting his subjects.

Technically, Mordremoth didn't corrupt the prisoners and corpses, but used them as templates to create mordrem (via corrupting plantlife) that copy the template's appearances and abilities. Also, Zhaitan corrupted the living and plantlife just as he corrupted the dead.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Caithe said it herself, it was not a corruption,

EHHHHHH... Devs outright called it branding in the GuildChat. They stated that Aurene branded Caithe.

It isn't corruption in the sense of Aurene warping and removing Caithe's will. But it is corruption in the sense of, as you put it, "rewriting her DNA structure".

That's what I assumed. Any thoughts on why they fell? My only guess is Caithe shed them herself, like Sylvari do with regular plant clothing, out of anguish.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Caithe said it herself, it was not a corruption,

EHHHHHH... Devs outright called it branding in the GuildChat. They stated that Aurene branded Caithe.

It isn't corruption in the sense of Aurene warping and removing Caithe's will. But it is corruption in the sense of, as you put it, "rewriting her DNA structure".

The Devs call it "branding" just because of lack of word to describe it. Historical understanding of what branding does is it changes the subject to a point of losing their mind. It is called a corruption because the subject loses control of their own self. Caithe is neither insane nor she lose control of herself. So I think calling it branding, which is a corruption, is not the correct term to use. Corruption is something that is really bad or something negative that happens and when a body is corrupted usually means a degeneration of the body. So using that word to describe Caithe is a misnomer. "Enchanted" is closer to what happened to Caithe than "branded".

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Dragon corruption does more than merely remove their will and enslave the individual. The physical side of dragon corruption is still called corruption, not just the mental side of it. It's just that it's "good corruption"; much like the creation of the facets or sylvari. You're right, we don't have a word for it. But changing the word doesn't change what it is, because what Aurene did was fundamentally the exact same as what Elder Dragons do, it's just that there's no malevolence behind it.

  • Kralkatorrik changed the physical appearance of creatures into crystalline versions, and creates a mental connection.
  • Aurene changed the physical appearance of Caithe into a crystalline version, and created a mental connection.

The sole difference is that the Elder Dragons chose to use that mental connection to dominate those they give their magic to. Aurene didn't.

Whether you want to call it "corruption" or not, it's ultimately the same thing. Just as a gun is used to maim criminals, or kill innocents - it's still a gun which uses bullets, and someone pulls the trigger. But the intention behind pulling that trigger differs. If "corruption" is a misnomer for what happened to Caithe, it's a misnomer for what the Elder Dragons do too. But it's a misnomer created out of the fact that until now, it's never been used on a sapient creature without harmful intent.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Dragon corruption does more than merely remove their will and enslave the individual. The physical side of dragon corruption is still called corruption, not just the mental side of it. It's just that it's "good corruption"; much like the creation of the facets or sylvari. You're right, we don't have a word for it. But changing the word doesn't change what it is, because what Aurene did was fundamentally the exact same as what Elder Dragons do, it's just that there's no malevolence behind it.

  • Kralkatorrik changed the physical appearance of creatures into crystalline versions, and creates a mental connection.
  • Aurene changed the physical appearance of Caithe into a crystalline version, and created a mental connection.

The sole difference is that the Elder Dragons chose to use that mental connection to dominate those they give their magic to. Aurene didn't.

Whether you want to call it "corruption" or not, it's ultimately the same thing. Just as a gun is used to maim criminals, or kill innocents - it's still a gun which uses bullets, and someone pulls the trigger. But the intention behind pulling that trigger differs. If "corruption" is a misnomer for what happened to Caithe, it's a misnomer for what the Elder Dragons do too. But it's a misnomer created out of the fact that until now, it's never been used on a sapient creature without harmful intent.

Corruption changes the DNA make up of the subject that is why even killing the Elder Dragon doesn't reverts the subject to their original form. Aurene's "enchantment" is not a corruption since it didn't change Caithe's DNA make up -- proof is when the "enchantment" falls off when Aurene died. No different than enchanting a sword with fire then the magic wore off leaving the sword intact.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Dragon corruption does more than merely remove their will and enslave the individual. The physical side of dragon corruption is still called corruption, not just the mental side of it. It's just that it's "good corruption"; much like the creation of the facets or sylvari. You're right, we don't have a word for it. But changing the word doesn't change what it is, because what Aurene did was fundamentally the exact same as what Elder Dragons do, it's just that there's no malevolence behind it.
  • Kralkatorrik changed the physical appearance of creatures into crystalline versions, and creates a mental connection.
  • Aurene changed the physical appearance of Caithe into a crystalline version, and created a mental connection.

The sole difference is that the Elder Dragons chose to use that mental connection to dominate those they give their magic to. Aurene didn't.

Whether you want to call it "corruption" or not, it's ultimately the same thing. Just as a gun is used to maim criminals, or kill innocents - it's still a gun which uses bullets, and someone pulls the trigger. But the intention behind pulling that trigger differs. If "corruption" is a misnomer for what happened to Caithe, it's a misnomer for what the Elder Dragons do too. But it's a misnomer created out of the fact that until now, it's never been used on a sapient creature without harmful intent.

Corruption changes the DNA make up of the subject that is why even killing the Elder Dragon doesn't reverts the subject to their original form. Aurene's "enchantment" is not a corruption since it didn't change Caithe's DNA make up -- proof is when the "enchantment" falls off when Aurene died. No different than enchanting a sword with fire then the magic wore off leaving the sword intact.

We see Caithe stayed branded after the flowers fell. Moreover, all Sylvari can grow and shed parts of themselves at will. The only difference is the plants being manipulated were crystalline, and Caithe doesn't seem to have manually dropped them. Both of which are new.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, remember that sylvari in the festival? It was a mordrem guard and reverted back.

I believe that was because Mordremoth had control of that transformation if my memory serves me. Most likely after Mordremoth’s death, the Mordrem guard could transform back.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Dragon corruption does more than merely remove their will and enslave the individual. The physical side of dragon corruption is still called corruption, not just the mental side of it. It's just that it's "good corruption"; much like the creation of the facets or sylvari. You're right, we don't have a word for it. But changing the word doesn't change what it is, because what Aurene did was fundamentally the exact same as what Elder Dragons do, it's just that there's no malevolence behind it.
  • Kralkatorrik changed the physical appearance of creatures into crystalline versions, and creates a mental connection.
  • Aurene changed the physical appearance of Caithe into a crystalline version, and created a mental connection.

The sole difference is that the Elder Dragons chose to use that mental connection to dominate those they give their magic to. Aurene didn't.

Whether you want to call it "corruption" or not, it's ultimately the same thing. Just as a gun is used to maim criminals, or kill innocents - it's still a gun which uses bullets, and someone pulls the trigger. But the intention behind pulling that trigger differs. If "corruption" is a misnomer for what happened to Caithe, it's a misnomer for what the Elder Dragons do too. But it's a misnomer created out of the fact that until now, it's never been used on a sapient creature without harmful intent.

Corruption changes the DNA make up of the subject that is why even killing the Elder Dragon doesn't reverts the subject to their original form. Aurene's "enchantment" is not a corruption since it didn't change Caithe's DNA make up -- proof is when the "enchantment" falls off when Aurene died. No different than enchanting a sword with fire then the magic wore off leaving the sword intact.

Caithe is still branded, even though aesthetic parts of it faded away, which isn't that different to most unchained in Siren's Landing being unable to use their magic. You probably didn't notice because you can't get very close, but she's still the same shade of blue and everything. It's just one flower that disintegrates.

And it isn't really changing the "DNA makeup" since it's literally turning flesh into crystal, ice, etc. in most cases. It goes a bit beyond DNA.

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:eh, remember that sylvari in the festival? It was a mordrem guard and reverted back.

Mordrem Guard aren't corrupted in the same sense of other mordrem, or risen, icebrood, branded, etc. as they're still protected by the Dream / Pale Tree. They suffer a more traditional sense of brainwashing, through Mordremoth's "Call" which is ultimately telepathy designed in a manner to as make the subject think the telepathy is their own thoughts.

All sylvari are capable of changing their appearance - we see Canach, Caithe, and Scarlet Briar all do such - and the Mordrem Guard is just an extreme case of that ability, as directed by Mordremoth's telepathy. Without Mordremoth's command, they would come to their senses and revert back. Not to mention not all Mordrem Guard looked different than sylvari (though the name is misleading since as said, sylvari are not "dragon corrupted").

A Mordrem Guard’s appearance is more due to Mordremoth’s ability to control and shape plant life—sylvari are plants, after all, and once Mordy’s mental influence takes hold of a sylvari, it then twists their physical form into this more formidable configuration. It is related to/a dark mirror of a sylvari’s ability to change their own appearance, but in this case it’s being directed by Mordy and not the individual.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Lore-Q-A/page/2#post6175329

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indeed, but I wanted to communicate is, that for dragon corruption to 'work' it is not necessary to 'rewrite' or even change the body of an individual.

Many of the risen where just 'normal' undead. Slowly decaying. Even the 'special forces' are just creatures stitched together from different parts. No changes needed at all. As described in the book, a lot of the corrupted norn are just frozen, not changed.

Basically, the only dragon that changes the structure of those corrupted is Kralkatorrik. Primordus or Mordremoth just created new minions (or took over sylvari), Zhaitan reanimated corpses and let his surgical teams adapt them to different roles, no 'rewritting' here either. Jormag freezes them and covers them in corrupted ice, also no 'rewriting' necessary.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:indeed, but I wanted to communicate is, that for dragon corruption to 'work' it is not necessary to 'rewrite' or even change the body of an individual.

Many of the risen where just 'normal' undead. Slowly decaying. Even the 'special forces' are just creatures stitched together from different parts. No changes needed at all. As described in the book, a lot of the corrupted norn are just frozen, not changed.

Basically, the only dragon that changes the structure of those corrupted is Kralkatorrik. Primordus or Mordremoth just created new minions (or took over sylvari), Zhaitan reanimated corpses and let his surgical teams adapt them to different roles, no 'rewritting' here either. Jormag freezes them and covers them in corrupted ice, also no 'rewriting' necessary.

Ehhhhhh, I'd disagree.

Mordremoth is fully capable of turning animal flesh into plant - we see this with Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls (and confirmed by Scott McGough in the link I posted in my previous post). Mordremoth usually just corrupts other plantlife, so the change is less notable, like with destroyers being corrupted fire.

Icebrood aren't "just frozen", their flesh is slowly turned into ice until there is nothing but ice and bone. And with Zhaitan, while he tends to corrupt the dead the most, he does corrupt living (e.g., Kellach, Risa, a few others) and plants, and all risen are rotten and decayed regardless of the state of the corpse when corrupted (and this isn't just a mechanical limitation either, the books make note of how fresh bodies of those slain by risen turn gray skinned, rotten, and decayed before they could even hit the ground). Even the DSD changes water into "tentacled monsters".

Every Elder Dragon (and Aurene as of Ep5) can transform Material A into Material B where A is any existing material be it flesh or element and B is the respective dragon's primary domain.

Like I said, though, Mordremoth didn't seem to corrupt sylvari. By all appearances, what protects them from being corrupted by other Elder Dragons (the Dream) also protects them from being corrupted by Mordremoth. So Mordremoth used another method to get them to "willingly" join his side (mental bombardment) which, ironically, was only possible because of the shared connection to the Dream (that not all sylvari have - e.g., Malyck); that's why some were able to resist Mordremoth's "Call", as it wasn't the irresistible exposure of dragon corruption. This is why they can revert to their original selves from a mental standpoint when Mordremoth died, despite the fact that the risen could not when Zhaitna died.

The question, really, is why Aurene was able to bypass that protection with Caithe. Probably because she wasn't trying to do harm? Or because Caithe allowed it?

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frozen flesh is still flesh, just mostly ice.

those mordrem wolves were infected with fungi, so not really a 'transformation' and more like a rampant out of control infection...

btw, an attack on the dream does not seem to be necessary - the soundless fell victim as well, maybe even more so. Which convinces me, that all of Malyck's colony just 'converted' to Mordremoth the moment it awake.

as with Caithe, I understood the scene that Caithe basically allowed Aurene to do her 'dirty' deeds.

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I want to point out one thing that alot of people are mistaking here: Natural minions are not corrupted minions,

Every dragon has its corrupted minions, which we are very familiar with, but they also all have natural minions too, which are created from scratch, and are not corrupted but rather constructed entirely of their domain (this is what Sylvari are to Mordremoth, the scions and Wraithbringer are to Kralkatorrik, etc.).

Modremoth actually had no corrupted minions, Taimi clearly states he got the corruption power ("to make more") from Zhaitan.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:I want to point out one thing that alot of people are mistaking here: Natural minions are not corrupted minions,

Every dragon has its corrupted minions, which we are very familiar with, but they also all have natural minions too, which are created from scratch, and are not corrupted but rather constructed entirely of their domain (this is what Sylvari are to Mordremoth, the scions and Wraithbringer are to Kralkatorrik, etc.).

Modremoth actually had no corrupted minions, Taimi clearly states he got the corruption power ("to make more") from Zhaitan.

The domains are corrupted ley energy, anything constructed entirely out of them, or conjured/transformed/infused by them is referred to as corruption and is not like normal matter.

Also Mordremoth had unnaturally corrupted minions, like the Mordrem Wolf.

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@Artim.5139 said:I think of it like this: Aurene isn't corrupted like the Elder Dragons. Yes, She did Brand Caithe but it's beneficial. Got to remember that since she is a Scion of Glint she shares her mother's purity.

The material that Aurene is made of is referred to as corruption. She is corrupted she just isn't evil/brainwashed/uncontrollably hungry.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:frozen flesh is still flesh, just mostly ice.

those mordrem wolves were infected with fungi, so not really a 'transformation' and more like a rampant out of control infection...

btw, an attack on the dream does not seem to be necessary - the soundless fell victim as well, maybe even more so. Which convinces me, that all of Malyck's colony just 'converted' to Mordremoth the moment it awake.

as with Caithe, I understood the scene that Caithe basically allowed Aurene to do her 'dirty' deeds.

From a discussion with Scott McGough.

Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

The Mordrem wolves have been completely transformed from wolf corpses into Mordrem. The frozen flesh operates under a similar principle and is ice in the shape of flesh, not actual living tissue.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Dragon corruption does more than merely remove their will and enslave the individual. The physical side of dragon corruption is still called corruption, not just the mental side of it. It's just that it's "good corruption"; much like the creation of the facets or sylvari. You're right, we don't have a word for it. But changing the word doesn't change what it is, because what Aurene did was fundamentally the exact same as what Elder Dragons do, it's just that there's no malevolence behind it.
  • Kralkatorrik changed the physical appearance of creatures into crystalline versions, and creates a mental connection.
  • Aurene changed the physical appearance of Caithe into a crystalline version, and created a mental connection.

The sole difference is that the Elder Dragons chose to use that mental connection to dominate those they give their magic to. Aurene didn't.

Whether you want to call it "corruption" or not, it's ultimately the same thing. Just as a gun is used to maim criminals, or kill innocents - it's still a gun which uses bullets, and someone pulls the trigger. But the intention behind pulling that trigger differs. If "corruption" is a misnomer for what happened to Caithe, it's a misnomer for what the Elder Dragons do too. But it's a misnomer created out of the fact that until now, it's never been used on a sapient creature without harmful intent.

Corruption changes the DNA make up of the subject that is why even killing the Elder Dragon doesn't reverts the subject to their original form. Aurene's "enchantment" is not a corruption since it didn't change Caithe's DNA make up -- proof is when the "enchantment" falls off when Aurene died. No different than enchanting a sword with fire then the magic wore off leaving the sword intact.

Caithe is still branded, even though aesthetic parts of it faded away, which isn't that different to most unchained in Siren's Landing being unable to use their magic. You probably didn't notice because you can't get very close, but she's still the same shade of blue and everything. It's just one flower that disintegrates.

The flowers on her back are gone too, but yes she's still blue so I'm not so sure what her final state is...fallen branded? lol

And it isn't really changing the "DNA makeup" since it's literally turning flesh into crystal, ice, etc. in most cases. It goes a bit beyond DNA.

That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption.

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@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption.

No, you can see that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption.

No,
that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath.

I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away.

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@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:That's basically what a corruption is, a cancer that's changing your DNA makeup turning your "flesh" from the cellular level to something else. The crystallized or "botanicalized" flesh are like tumors. In case of Caithe, none of her turned into crystal, rather some crystalized flowers were added that was not originally part of her. So to me, it's more of an enchantment instead of a mutation/corruption.

No,
that there's a glow beneath her skin, most noticeably at her neck and collerbone, and at her chest her skin does open up to reveal crystal underneath.

I'm actually taking about the purplish pink flowers that blossomed on her back during the cut scene. You don't see those anymore when the enchantment faded away.

There is no enchantment. There are flowers disintegrating off a person whose body still shows signs of plant/crystal corruption. And this person is part of a race that can grow and remove flowers from themselves at will.

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