The First Sin of WvW Balance - Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" (Important) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The First Sin of WvW Balance - Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" (Important)

Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

(The following is my 2nd Problem with WvW out of my Top 5) (Also, sorry for the length, but felt each part is necessary)

Gear Influences Experience

You know, one thing I really tend to love about games in general... Are the piece's it takes to play them. Now, these of coarse are important, because they Strongly influence mine, yours or anyone's Experience playing the game; outside of just pure skill. Which can ether elicit a Positive or Negative (somewhere in that spectrum) feeling/understanding regarding games. This outcome can easily occur when those pieces are coupled with those various skill sets that us Players, more uniquely possess. As well as our (as Players) processes in the experience's around those pieces (like how to get those pieces). Not just skill alone.
However, I want to talk about the in game pieces. More specifically... Gear.
Now, how much influence can these various pieces of "Gear" offer? Depends. It really depends on how well the Gear is balanced. Alongside how well the things (like Professions) are being influenced, by Gear, are balanced. Feeding ultimately into each of our own individual experiences.
This is important because our "experiences" are how we directly value our time playing the game. Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?

However, that's Not actually the kinds of balance I wish to talk about here. No... Instead, what I wish to talk about is another balance. Related to Gear and overall balance. I would like to call this...
"The Balance of Reasonable Opportunity". Otherwise known as "An Equal Playing Field" (you'll see). That is also in Strong relation to Gear, but involving a focus on "Gear Stats". Including the opportunities it provides towards better ("Good") experiences. Basically, how we go about obtaining our desired Gear Stats. Across our "x" amount of characters. And the Impact that process has, without a shadow of a doubt, onto overall WvW Balance. Thus, again, ultimately "into each of our own individual experiences". Again asking the question we always ask ourselves... "Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?"

Well, the answer to that question is more or less unique. Firstly, are all of our experiences in obtaining our desired gear stats the same? No, obviously not. If I want to play 7 of the 9 professions (with desired builds) vs. someone who only wants to 2 of the 9. Guess what? I am going to have the experience of having to grind (aka Work...) harder. Than that other player. Simply because I want to try to have fun playing more builds on professions. And that's 1 example. Before we could go into the next extreme. That is, having at least a couple or more viable builds per profession. However you get the point. So the fact of the matter is... The Players that wish to experience/enjoy the game further, on builds. Quite literally, have to pay an absurd amount (aside from time spent), just to be able to experience it.
Now initially, this sounds a bit weird and really just counterproductive by limiting that experience. Though, the grind has an end at least... Right? Yes, of course... Legendary's. However, is it Reasonable? That's a BIG "NO". Not for this reason. Why? Simply because it turns Legendary's into a Complete (VERY EXPENSIVE/Time Gated) "MUST HAVE" to play WvW "Stat Worry Free". And to have to do that across "x" professions/builds just to be able to experience WvW "Stat Worry Free" (At least as close we can currently get to it)... is pure insanity & Imbalanced. This is in part, what can make it harder for players to become accustomed to WvW. They have to "Worry" about their experience. The more they wish to explore it. Leading to other experience's (like fights involving overall balance) that they don't even know if they'll even enjoy. And this is primarily, if not Exactly, why People who go for legendary gear... Go for legendary gear. So that they don't have to really "Worry" about being able to play in a manner that they may enjoy. However, still only for the characters that own it/can use it. With far less Stress and Worry. (@Anet, please try to take that near continuous toxic "Worry" away)
That said, I'm going to prove all this further with a quote from a link. That will recognize all this and more...

"An Equal Playing Field"

The Link https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP. The Quote is from the "Gear and builds" section reads as follows:

"The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps. Instead, equipment attributes are normalized, and players select a rune set, a sigil set, a PvP-specific amulet, and a set of specializations in the PvP Build panel. This build is maintained separately from the player's normal PvE or WvW build, and is automatically applied whenever a character enters the structured PvP lobby map. This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players. Players need to equip chest, legs and foot armor to achieve the base armor value, but hands, shoulders and head may be ignored."

I went ahead and put the main take away there in bold. Which again states:

  • "This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players".

So the Fact is... WvW does NOT have such a considerate "mechanic". Therefore, we are by no means considered on an "equal playing field", from the moment you or we step into WvW. And every time after. So the next time you or anyone else has any feelings towards the "overall balance" ... Remember, you/I/they weren't even on "an equal playing field" to begin with.
And that goes beyond being outnumbered or vice versa.

More Justification as to why this is important... Another Link and another Quote...

"WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode"

This time, taking a quote from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World from under the "Combat" sub-section within the "Mechanics" section reads as follows:

  • "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode. You are rewarded with both loot and Points-Per-Kill (PPK) for killing enemy players."

"First and foremost"... WvW is about the Combat. That Player vs. Player interaction. @Anet, you trivialize that Greatly, by disregarding "an equal playing field" mechanic. As previously discussed. WvW isn't about the Gear Stat Grind... Never was. Again, it's about that Player vs. Player interaction... "First and foremost".

Lastly, for clarity...

  • This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase. Ideas are of coarse welcome.
  • Legendary's: This post is NOT meant to undermine efforts towards Legendary's. I believe that there are other mean's (ideas) in which Legendary's could still be very beneficial to players in WvW. Reminder: PvP Players got Legendary's well and long before WvW Players ever did... Yet they cannot make good use of it in PvP because of that environment. Though, I'm willing and would like to hear discussions/idea's around this.
  • Economical Impact: Is Not limited to Gear and operates (considering supply/demand) primarily on a "potential to buy/sell" Not a "guaranteed to buy/sell". So it would seem appropriate to discuss where gold could go still... As it could go places now. Also, the Impact (if any) PvP has on the Economy already... Since that is a mode that already bypasses the need for most gear and higher tier gear as is. And to what degree @Anet considers the economy to be bad. Compared to whatever degree (good or bad) it is now. So, by all means... Discuss.
  • This post is NOT to undermine any work @Anet has done. Once upon a time there were crafting stations, certain land masses, place-able cannons, no reward tracks etc. that shaped WvW... Now, things are different in (what should be) an effort to strive for better. The "strive" and effort in this post is no different.
  • This post IS about the Importance of the Player vs. Player aspect of WvW "First and foremost". And the Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" that trivializes the Balance around it.

To conclude. Firstly, sorry about the length. Tried to make it as short as possible. Secondly, @Anet... Please, in the name of all that is good. Implement "an equal playing field" mechanic in WvW... So that people can more significantly and meaningfully experience what is supposed to be WvW's main Element... The Player vs. Player Combat.

Thank You, for taking the time to read.

P.S. Just like "Alliances" are a "WvW" related attempt at "an equal playing field" regarding numbers. Same should go for the Gear involved in that PvP interaction.

Guild Pride > Server Pride
WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

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Comments

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    The cost in numbers for 1 set of gear, for 1 player. Now multiply this over 6 years and thousands upon thousands upon thousands of players... who have made or obtained gears for wvw play...

    The devs are not going to change the gearing system now and devalue player efforts, time, game resources, real money... to change. WvW is an "open world" RvR experience based off of DAoC RvR gameplay. WvW was never meant to be an "equal playing field". WvW is not about structured gear or gameplay. SPvP was made structured in those ways in an effort to make it as an E-Sport. Balance is not made through gear, it's made through profession development.

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    For @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Raymond Lukes.6305 and Systems Team

    Some additional perspectives related to this topic…

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/28024/increasing-ttk-undoing-old-split-changes-and-eliminating-skill-splitting

    A player running Exotics, while using a high damage oriented build, can destroy a player in any gear set up. This is more than obvious against low toughness builds, but also includes mid to high range toughness builds as well… And now we have mount “nukes” to contend with too… So a player can follows the game systems of gearing up and improving their builds, just to be destroyed within seconds during combat regardless of any personal efforts or factors, when an opponent is given the tools to blow you up in a few keypresses…

    But let’s look at the actual costs a player incurs to build up gear, and let’s consider it can be completely wasted when a high damage build comes along... Not to mention the frustration players will feel..

    Average cost to level up crafting to make Ascended gear on a Scholar class…

    • 500 Tailor… 63 Gold
    • 500 Artificer… 78 Gold
    • 500 Weaponsmith… 95 Gold
    • 500 Huntsman… 105 Gold

    Costs (gold, mats, currencies) to make Dire Ascended gears for a Condi Necro…

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ascended_equipment

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_armor

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Masque

    • 245 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 100 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Wool Scrap
    • 100 Cotton Scrap
    • 200 Linen Scrap
    • 9 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 160 Thin Leather Section
    • 80 Coarse Leather Section
    • 160 Rugged Leather Section
    • 1500 Silk Scrap
    • 800 Thick Leather Section

    Total cost 38g 89s 60c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Epaulets

    • 245 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 100 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Wool Scrap
    • 100 Cotton Scrap
    • 200 Linen Scrap
    • 9 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 160 Thin Leather Section
    • 80 Coarse Leather Section
    • 160 Rugged Leather Section
    • 1500 Silk Scrap
    • 800 Thick Leather Section

    Total cost 39g 05s 00c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Doublet

    • 320 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 190 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 320 Wool Scrap
    • 160 Cotton Scrap
    • 320 Linen Scrap
    • 12 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 160 Thin Leather Section
    • 80 Coarse Leather Section
    • 160 Rugged Leather Section
    • 2400 Silk Scrap
      800 Thick Leather Section

    Total cost 50g 20s 34c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Wristguards

    • 245 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 100 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Wool Scrap
    • 100 Cotton Scrap
    • 200 Linen Scrap
    • 9 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 160 Thin Leather Section
    • 80 Coarse Leather Section
    • 160 Rugged Leather Section
    • 1500 Silk Scrap
    • 800 Thick Leather Section

    Total cost 39g 01s 80c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Breeches

    • 320 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 90 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 320 Wool Scrap
    • 160 Cotton Scrap
    • 320 Linen Scrap
    • 11 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 2400 Silk Scrap
    • 120 Thin Leather Section
    • 60 Coarse Leather Section
    • 120 Rugged Leather Section
    • 600 Thick Leather Section

    Total cost 43g 67s 66c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Footwear

    • 245 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 110 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Wool Scrap
    • 100 Cotton Scrap
    • 200 Linen Scrap
    • 10 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 200 Thin Leather Section
    • 100 Coarse Leather Section
    • 200 Rugged Leather Section
    • 1500 Silk Scrap
    • 1000 Thick Leather Section Total cost 43g 14s 48c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Morbach's_Cloth_Breather

    • 245 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 5 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Intricate Gossamer Insignia
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 200 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 12 Obsidian Shard
    • 100 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 200 Dragonite Ore
    • 200 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Wool Scrap
    • 100 Cotton Scrap
    • 200 Linen Scrap
    • 9 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 160 Thin Leather Section
    • 80 Coarse Leather Section
    • 160 Rugged Leather Section
    • 1500 Silk Scrap
    • 800 Thick Leather Section Total cost 38g 41s 00c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_of_Grenth

    • 50 Icy Runestone
    • 10 Glacial Lodestone
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 600 Wool Scrap
    • 300 Cotton Scrap
    • 600 Linen Scrap
    • 15 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 375 Spool of Gossamer Thread
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 150 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 4500 Silk Scrap

    Total cost 102g 98s 65c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_weapons

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_Wand

    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 360 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 10 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Orichalcum Imbued Inscription
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 320 Soft Wood Log
    • 240 Seasoned Wood Log
    • 480 Hard Wood Log
    • 11 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 1200 Elder Wood Log
    • 270 Iron Ore
    • 30 Lump of Coal
    • 120 Platinum Ore
    • 60 Lump of Primordium
    • 300 Mithril Ore

    Total cost 50g 23s 83c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_Herald

    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 350 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 10 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Orichalcum Imbued Inscription
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 200 Soft Wood Log
    • 150 Seasoned Wood Log
    • 300 Hard Wood Log
    • 10 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 450 Iron Ore
    • 50 Lump of Coal
    • 200 Platinum Ore
    • 100 Lump of Primordium
    • 750 Elder Wood Log
    • 500 Mithril Ore

    Total cost 43g 90s 38c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_Spire

    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 370 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 10 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Orichalcum Imbued Inscription
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 360 Soft Wood Log
    • 270 Seasoned Wood Log
    • 540 Hard Wood Log
    • 12 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 1350 Elder Wood Log
    • 270 Iron Ore
    • 30 Lump of Coal
    • 120 Platinum Ore
    • 60 Lump of Primordium
    • 300 Mithril Ore

    Total cost 54g 42s 32c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_Impaler

    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 360 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 10 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Orichalcum Imbued Inscription
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 540 Iron Ore
    • 60 Lump of Coal
    • 240 Platinum Ore
    • 120 Lump of Primordium
    • 11 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 200 Soft Wood Log
    • 150 Seasoned Wood Log
    • 300 Hard Wood Log
    • 600 Mithril Ore
    • 750 Elder Wood Log

    Total cost 47g 17s 23c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mathilde's_Trident

    • 20 Pile of Crystalline Dust
    • 350 Thermocatalytic Reagent
    • 10 Glob of Dark Matter
    • 1 Dire Orichalcum Imbued Inscription
    • 1 Augur's Stone
    • 500 Pile of Bloodstone Dust
    • 30 Obsidian Shard
    • 500 Dragonite Ore
    • 500 Empyreal Fragment
    • 450 Iron Ore
    • 50 Lump of Coal
    • 200 Platinum Ore
    • 100 Lump of Primordium
    • 10 Glob of Ectoplasm
    • 200 Soft Wood Log
    • 150 Seasoned Wood Log
    • 300 Hard Wood Log
    • 500 Mithril Ore
    • 750 Elder Wood Log Total cost 44g 03s 68c

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Pendant

    • 260 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets
    • 250 Memories of Battle

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Band_(Infused)

    • 350 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets
    • 250 Memories of Battle

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Band_(Infused)

    • 350 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets
    • 250 Memories of Battle

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mist_Talisman

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/WvW_Skirmish_Claim_Ticket

    • “The maximum number of WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets that can be obtained in one week, requiring 1450 pips: 365”

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Infusion

    • Would Take 22 Infusions to complete the build for this gear example…

    There are two versions of Attribute WvW Infusions, Offensive and Defensive. Both types can be purchased from WvW Laurel Merchants for 5 Laurels PLUS 125 Badges of Honor, or from a Skirmish Supervisor for 45 WvW Skirmish Claim Ticket PLUS 20 Memories of Battle.

    • So going the Laurel route it would cost 110 Laurels and 2,750 Badges of Honor.
    • Going the WvW Skirmish Claim Ticket route it would cost 990 WvW Skirmish Claim Tickets and 440 Memories of Battle…

    Not going to go into other build items like…

    And I’m not going to go into time spent working toward gear, time gates and grinds for items…But overall it's months of playing, using a bunch of currencies and around 1k gold to make this 1 gear set up...

    This threads was just an example to highlight the costs of making gear, and how useless this effort could be if you are just wiped out quickly due to low health, and by extension, how near useless toughness can be in the equation. And it's not a surprise how stats are/have been working, nor is it a surprise that the game favors Damage builds, but something needs to be looked at please?

    *I will have some edits...

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @WraithOfStealth.1624 said:
    Long and convoluted story short: You want a system like the pvp amulet system (but you aren't advocating for it?) so you don't have to spend time/effort to get gear for your characters?

    The only benefit in this world be for new players, such as the current influx of PvE'rs that don't want to work/grind for another specific mode set of gear...

    Currently playing my Asura because my Norn on the Warclaw looks like it's sitting on a Chihauhau!!!
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • Loosmaster.8263Loosmaster.8263 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Maybe we should have a gear rental NPC...

    Currently playing my Asura because my Norn on the Warclaw looks like it's sitting on a Chihauhau!!!
    Tactical Killers
    Server(DR)

  • Ni In.6578Ni In.6578 Member ✭✭✭

    If you want something for nothing, just say so. It appears you want equipment just provided to you with no effort. If GW2 is about zero effort, what is the point in playing?

    [VII] Desert Spectre - Declared Best NA Guild by Grimaldi
    Crystal Desert Consul Member and President of Scrubs; declared most toxic server NA by Z E Y
    [VII] wants fights! Please bring your pug rangers for UD progress.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    @Loosmaster.8263 said:
    Another "I want the Amulet thread?" Are they going to reimburse me for everything I spent including Xpacs?

    @WraithOfStealth.1624 said:
    Long and convoluted story short: You want a system like the pvp amulet system (but you aren't advocating for it?) so you don't have to spend time/effort to get gear for your characters?

    No. This post is about "an equal playing field" "mechanic" for WvW. Not specifically an amulet system as I've mention originally in the post...

    @Whiteout.1975 said: "This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase."

    So as long as the mechanic achieves what I mention there. That would be the more healthy means of going about it.

    I understand I typed a lot and don't blame anyone for missing... But now you know

    Also, You have to stay relevant in your builds to keep up with the meta. Which 9/10 times forces you to change your gear/runes etc. to some degree if not completely... Nearly every time a Balence Patch hits. It already devalue's my efforts by compelling me to switch my builds to stay relevant enough to have fun. Same goes for others. This is also why like I also said before...

    @Whiteout.1975 said: "this is primarily, if not Exactly, why People who go for legendary gear... Go for legendary gear. So that they don't have to really "Worry" about being able to play in a manner that they may enjoy. However, still only for the characters that own it/can use it. With far less Stress and Worry."

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loosmaster.8263 said:
    Maybe we should have a gear rental NPC...

    This is could be really good idea. Thank You.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • @Whiteout.1975 said:

    No. This post is about "an equal playing field" "mechanic" for WvW. Not specifically an amulet system as I've mention originally in the post...

    @Whiteout.1975 said: "This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase."

    So as long as the mechanic achieves what I mention there. That would be the more healthy means of going about it.

    Equal playing field through gear is only achievable through the Amulet system or something very similar. So that is basically what you want.

    Also, You have to stay relevant in your builds to keep up with the meta. Which 9/10 times forces you to change your gear/runes etc. to some degree if not completely... Nearly every time a Balence Patch hits. It already devalue's my efforts by compelling me to switch my builds to stay relevant enough to have fun. Same goes for others. This is also why like I also said before...

    WvW meta doesn't change that much. Even if it did, ascended gear is easy to obtain and can swap stats through forge. Legendary gear is a Quality of Life investment, not mandatory.

    Obèlíx [GAUL] - Gandara(EU).
    Condi Ventari Build

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 11, 2019

    @Ni In.6578 said:
    If you want something for nothing, just say so. It appears you want equipment just provided to you with no effort. If GW2 is about zero effort, what is the point in playing?

    No. That is not why I play WvW. I play specifically for that PvP interaction in WvW. As talked about in the post apart from just me. I want specific gear stats reliably. It doesn't have to look fancy or anything regarding the equipment. Also, equipment is not the only thing this game can (because PvP) have someone working for. I could be spending money on guild hall decorations, Better food, More siege, Legendary's still (Like some PvPer's still go for) etc. There is plenty of value elsewhere. Also, most gear can still be mixed/gambled in the mystic for whatever relates. Also, salvaged... There are plenty a things.

    It looks silly for anyone to complain about balance when their not even on "an equal playing field" to begin with.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @WraithOfStealth.1624 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    No. This post is about "an equal playing field" "mechanic" for WvW. Not specifically an amulet system as I've mention originally in the post...

    @Whiteout.1975 said: "This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase."

    So as long as the mechanic achieves what I mention there. That would be the more healthy means of going about it.

    Equal playing field through gear is only achievable through the Amulet system or something very similar. So that is basically what you want.

    Also, You have to stay relevant in your builds to keep up with the meta. Which 9/10 times forces you to change your gear/runes etc. to some degree if not completely... Nearly every time a Balence Patch hits. It already devalue's my efforts by compelling me to switch my builds to stay relevant enough to have fun. Same goes for others. This is also why like I also said before...

    WvW meta doesn't change that much. Even if it did, ascended gear is easy to obtain and can swap stats through forge. Legendary gear is a Quality of Life investment, not mandatory.

    Opinions aside for the moment... Let me ask you simply:

    Do you want to be on "an equal playing field" for balance. Yes or No? And why?

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Ni In.6578Ni In.6578 Member ✭✭✭

    No class should be equal. A class should have it's strengths and weaknesses. The gear choice should be up to the player as many choose to play differently and there is no one gear-fits-all with regards to even a specific play type for a class.

    [VII] Desert Spectre - Declared Best NA Guild by Grimaldi
    Crystal Desert Consul Member and President of Scrubs; declared most toxic server NA by Z E Y
    [VII] wants fights! Please bring your pug rangers for UD progress.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ni In.6578 said:
    No class should be equal. A class should have it's strengths and weaknesses. The gear choice should be up to the player as many choose to play differently and there is no one gear-fits-all with regards to even a specific play type for a class.

    Well I was trying to answer your previous reply... But this will do. I agree with you here... so what's the issue?

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • @Whiteout.1975 said:

    Do you want to be on "an equal playing field" for balance. Yes or No? And why?

    Balance can never be 100% equal, so no i guess.

    Everyone has equal opportunity to get gear however. I prefer build diversity over equal stat access, which is why i play WvW instead of PvP.
    If we were forced to use specific stat combinations i'd quit the game honestly. The balance i desire limits extremes. Tone down over-performing builds, make under-performing builds at least semi-viable. Rarely if ever, are stats/gear the issue.

    Obèlíx [GAUL] - Gandara(EU).
    Condi Ventari Build

  • Aenaos.8160Aenaos.8160 Member ✭✭✭

    This theory is false because it relies on the false assumption that sPvP is balanced or that an equal playing field has anything to do with sPvP.
    You can't take a design manifesto for granted and ignore the realities of the game.
    I would argue that sPvP is as unbalanced as it is partly because of the Amulet system and how inflexible it is.
    WvW is way more balanced gear wise,exotics are extremely easy to get and you can do just fine with them and ascended gear is still easy to acquire.
    The gear system in WvW and PvE is also way more fun to get involved with as it adds a minimal sense of progression-an important aspect of RPGs- without even coming close to being as oppressive and obligatory as it is in proper gear grinders and gear treadmill games.
    PvP should go away with the Amulet system instead and allow us to play with our normal gear.It would be noticeably more balanced and certainly more fun.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    I like the amulet system for sPvP. It's a game mode that is very controlled. The maps are tiny with 5 players on each side, paired by a matchmaking system. It's all about trying to make it a fair fight.

    WvW is a different animal. There's no such thing as a fair fight there and you never know what you're going to get. An amulet system could work, but the reasons for having it aren't as relevant in this game mode. Given that, I prefer the flexibility of a system that allows me to use any gear I want.

    Right, it's a different environment. So they are trying Alliances (hopefully before I'm dead) for this environment. Alliances are a mechanic that attempt's to establish "an equal playing field" regarding numbers. The thing is people care about balance in it's entirety. Not just balance between number's.

    So have a "mechanic" with that "flexabily" :)

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • LaGranse.8652LaGranse.8652 Member ✭✭✭

    I play in full exotic and never have I blamed losing a fight because they got better gear than me.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @WraithOfStealth.1624 said:

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    Do you want to be on "an equal playing field" for balance. Yes or No? And why?

    Balance can never be 100% equal, so no i guess.

    Everyone has equal opportunity to get gear however. I prefer build diversity over equal stat access, which is why i play WvW instead of PvP.
    If we were forced to use specific stat combinations i'd quit the game honestly. The balance i desire limits extremes. Tone down over-performing builds, make under-performing builds at least semi-viable. Rarely if ever, are stats/gear the issue.

    Then balance will always be more of a joke before it's actually carried out sadly.

    I love build diversity as well :) The important thing is that gear has a say in the outcome. That's why people wear it... And that why we have a place like metabattle to keep up with it. I would be perfectly happy if they offered the same flexibility under this "mechanic". They could honestly have something very similar to the Hero Panel equipment section and with a similar flexibility for equipping stated gear.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aenaos.8160 said:
    This theory is false because it relies on the false assumption that sPvP is balanced or that an equal playing field has anything to do with sPvP.
    You can't take a design manifesto for granted and ignore the realities of the game.
    I would argue that sPvP is as unbalanced as it is partly because of the Amulet system and how inflexible it is.
    WvW is way more balanced gear wise,exotics are extremely easy to get and you can do just fine with them and ascended gear is still easy to acquire.
    The gear system in WvW and PvE is also way more fun to get involved with as it adds a minimal sense of progression-an important aspect of RPGs- without even coming close to being as oppressive and obligatory as it is in proper gear grinders and gear treadmill games.
    PvP should go away with the Amulet system instead and allow us to play with our normal gear.It would be noticeably more balanced and certainly more fun.

    Actually, that's not the theory here. I don't think PvP is balanced... Though, I do think it's more balanced in other ways... Sticking to "an equal playing field". It's about the opportunity that offers "flexibility" to play, under "an equal playing field". An being able "experience" the game to a higher degree; by not being anywhere near limited as now.

    I agree. I think WvW is more balanced in gear stat flexibility. Which I'm not against.

    Yea, I'm fine with PvE going about it's business, but I'm talking WvW. "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode."... I mention this in my post with a link. When I go into WvW... that is what I go in there to do. Nothing else really. That's my focus and the focus of WvW. Aside from that. In regards to other games, you're right overall, but better doesn't mean ideal.

    The "flexibility" can be fun. The grind not so much. You have plenty of PvE for that.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Xtinct.7031Xtinct.7031 Member ✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    (The following is my 2nd Problem with WvW out of my Top 5) (Also, sorry for the length, but felt each part is necessary)

    Gear Influences Experience

    You know, one thing I really tend to love about games in general... Are the piece's it takes to play them. Now, these of coarse are important, because they Strongly influence mine, yours or anyone's Experience playing the game; outside of just pure skill. Which can ether elicit a Positive or Negative (somewhere in that spectrum) feeling/understanding regarding games. This outcome can easily occur when those pieces are coupled with those various skill sets that us Players, more uniquely possess. As well as our (as Players) processes in the experience's around those pieces (like how to get those pieces). Not just skill alone.
    However, I want to talk about the in game pieces. More specifically... Gear.
    Now, how much influence can these various pieces of "Gear" offer? Depends. It really depends on how well the Gear is balanced. Alongside how well the things (like Professions) are being influenced, by Gear, are balanced. Feeding ultimately into each of our own individual experiences.
    This is important because our "experiences" are how we directly value our time playing the game. Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?

    However, that's Not actually the kinds of balance I wish to talk about here. No... Instead, what I wish to talk about is another balance. Related to Gear and overall balance. I would like to call this...
    "The Balance of Reasonable Opportunity". Otherwise known as "An Equal Playing Field" (you'll see). That is also in Strong relation to Gear, but involving a focus on "Gear Stats". Including the opportunities it provides towards better ("Good") experiences. Basically, how we go about obtaining our desired Gear Stats. Across our "x" amount of characters. And the Impact that process has, without a shadow of a doubt, onto overall WvW Balance. Thus, again, ultimately "into each of our own individual experiences". Again asking the question we always ask ourselves... "Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?"

    Well, the answer to that question is more or less unique. Firstly, are all of our experiences in obtaining our desired gear stats the same? No, obviously not. If I want to play 7 of the 9 professions (with desired builds) vs. someone who only wants to 2 of the 9. Guess what? I am going to have the experience of having to grind (aka Work...) harder. Than that other player. Simply because I want to try to have fun playing more builds on professions. And that's 1 example. Before we could go into the next extreme. That is, having at least a couple or more viable builds per profession. However you get the point. So the fact of the matter is... The Players that wish to experience/enjoy the game further, on builds. Quite literally, have to pay an absurd amount (aside from time spent), just to be able to experience it.
    Now initially, this sounds a bit weird and really just counterproductive by limiting that experience. Though, the grind has an end at least... Right? Yes, of course... Legendary's. However, is it Reasonable? That's a BIG "NO". Not for this reason. Why? Simply because it turns Legendary's into a Complete (VERY EXPENSIVE/Time Gated) "MUST HAVE" to play WvW "Stat Worry Free". And to have to do that across "x" professions/builds just to be able to experience WvW "Stat Worry Free" (At least as close we can currently get to it)... is pure insanity & Imbalanced. This is in part, what can make it harder for players to become accustomed to WvW. They have to "Worry" about their experience. The more they wish to explore it. Leading to other experience's (like fights involving overall balance) that they don't even know if they'll even enjoy. And this is primarily, if not Exactly, why People who go for legendary gear... Go for legendary gear. So that they don't have to really "Worry" about being able to play in a manner that they may enjoy. However, still only for the characters that own it/can use it. With far less Stress and Worry. (@Anet, please try to take that near continuous toxic "Worry" away)
    That said, I'm going to prove all this further with a quote from a link. That will recognize all this and more...

    "An Equal Playing Field"

    The Link https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP. The Quote is from the "Gear and builds" section reads as follows:

    "The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps. Instead, equipment attributes are normalized, and players select a rune set, a sigil set, a PvP-specific amulet, and a set of specializations in the PvP Build panel. This build is maintained separately from the player's normal PvE or WvW build, and is automatically applied whenever a character enters the structured PvP lobby map. This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players. Players need to equip chest, legs and foot armor to achieve the base armor value, but hands, shoulders and head may be ignored."

    I went ahead and put the main take away there in bold. Which again states:

    • "This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players".

    So the Fact is... WvW does NOT have such a considerate "mechanic". Therefore, we are by no means considered on an "equal playing field", from the moment you or we step into WvW. And every time after. So the next time you or anyone else has any feelings towards the "overall balance" ... Remember, you/I/they weren't even on "an equal playing field" to begin with.
    And that goes beyond being outnumbered or vice versa.

    More Justification as to why this is important... Another Link and another Quote...

    "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode"

    This time, taking a quote from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World from under the "Combat" sub-section within the "Mechanics" section reads as follows:

    • "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode. You are rewarded with both loot and Points-Per-Kill (PPK) for killing enemy players."

    "First and foremost"... WvW is about the Combat. That Player vs. Player interaction. @Anet, you trivialize that Greatly, by disregarding "an equal playing field" mechanic. As previously discussed. WvW isn't about the Gear Stat Grind... Never was. Again, it's about that Player vs. Player interaction... "First and foremost".

    Lastly, for clarity...

    • This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase. Ideas are of coarse welcome.
    • Legendary's: This post is NOT meant to undermine efforts towards Legendary's. I believe that there are other mean's (ideas) in which Legendary's could still be very beneficial to players in WvW. Reminder: PvP Players got Legendary's well and long before WvW Players ever did... Yet they cannot make good use of it in PvP because of that environment. Though, I'm willing and would like to hear discussions/idea's around this.
    • Economical Impact: Is Not limited to Gear and operates (considering supply/demand) primarily on a "potential to buy/sell" Not a "guaranteed to buy/sell". So it would seem appropriate to discuss where gold could go still... As it could go places now. Also, the Impact (if any) PvP has on the Economy already... Since that is a mode that already bypasses the need for most gear and higher tier gear as is. And to what degree @Anet considers the economy to be bad. Compared to whatever degree (good or bad) it is now. So, by all means... Discuss.
    • This post is NOT to undermine any work @Anet has done. Once upon a time there were crafting stations, certain land masses, place-able cannons, no reward tracks etc. that shaped WvW... Now, things are different in (what should be) an effort to strive for better. The "strive" and effort in this post is no different.
    • This post IS about the Importance of the Player vs. Player aspect of WvW "First and foremost". And the Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" that trivializes the Balance around it.

    To conclude. Firstly, sorry about the length. Tried to make it as short as possible. Secondly, @Anet... Please, in the name of all that is good. Implement "an equal playing field" mechanic in WvW... So that people can more significantly and meaningfully experience what is supposed to be WvW's main Element... The Player vs. Player Combat.

    Thank You, for taking the time to read.

    P.S. Just like "Alliances" are a "WvW" related attempt at "an equal playing field" regarding numbers. Same should go for the Gear involved in that PvP interaction.

    where is the thumbs down icon?

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Xtinct.7031 said:
    where is the thumbs down icon?

    Lol... probably got lost with the constructive feedback.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Optimator.3589Optimator.3589 Member ✭✭✭

    @Loosmaster.8263 said:
    Maybe we should have a gear rental NPC...

    And the fees for rented gear get distributed amongst those who actually work for their gear.

    REDUCE NA TO 3 TIERS

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    best way to balance this mode would be to redistribute the aoe cap so smaller groups can take out bigger ones. population would cease to matter.

    oh and a pvp amulet system would not fix anything since the problem is ez 25 might and +damage modifiers.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This again, huh. Bud, if the game seems too grindy for ya, try another game. If you want to "stay meta" make leggy wvw armor. But no. This - and the plethora of similar posts- want free shinies.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

    The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

    For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

    Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

    If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

    The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

    For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

    Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

    If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

    You "dabble" in wvw, but want meta build? Be prepared to do wvw for it, then. 6 exotic armor boxes plus ascended trinkets from living story reward tracks plus runes from dungeon reward track, means you WONT HAVE to set foot in pve. Anything else?

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭

    @alain.1659 said:
    Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

    Answered.

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    The point of the WvW mount was to sell skins and get F2P/HoT only WvW players to finally pony up the cash for Path of Fire.

    That's it.

    Not to save WvW. Not even alliances will do that. Too little, and far too late.

    Leader of PvE/WvW Havoc Guild - Tyrian Adventure Corporation [TACO] - Kaineng since the start, and till KN is no more.

    Do not fear simplification of the game, there is elegance in simplicity that allows more time for playing and less time building.

  • schloumou.3982schloumou.3982 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 12, 2019

    Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.
    So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the stats of every slot from all available combinations?
    You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @alain.1659 said:
    Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

    Answered.

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:
    The point of the WvW mount was to sell skins and get F2P/HoT only WvW players to finally pony up the cash for Path of Fire.

    That's it.

    Not to save WvW. Not even alliances will do that. Too little, and far too late.

    So what they do is to let non-PoF players leave the wvw mode. Well you are not wrong, this is typical Anet. I hope they can see their errors and do something about it after all these discussions. Instead of giving a good balance they are unbalancing the game against HoT and F2P players.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    @schloumou.3982 said:
    Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.
    So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the the stats of every slot from all available combinations?
    You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

    If they would give us the ability to select from all possible stat-rune-sigil etc combinations that would be ok for me. But I do not think that would happen in any time soon.

  • shiri.4257shiri.4257 Member ✭✭✭

    Opinions aside for the moment... Let me ask you simply:

    Do you want to be on "an equal playing field" for balance. Yes or No? And why?

    Yes i want to be on an equal playing field for balance. And yes it is currently and equal playing field and balance. Do you have access to the same gear that I have? yes. so how is that not balanced?

    Spectre [VII] - Wood League Champion. Making "fight guilds" stack on higher tiers since 2013.
    Wood League News Network [WLNN]- www.twitch.tv/shirirx

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @Skotlex.7580 said:
    Well, to be frank, OP isn't directly endorsing the amulet system, even if that would be the quickest way to get their equal opportunity balance they so much want.

    The complain has to do with how gear stat acquisition in WvW is tied to PvE, and some combinations take extremely longer than others to acquire.

    For instance, I can't just "dabble in WvW"and decide to roll a minstrel firebrand, as acquiring said gear combination takes time and money. And if I end up not liking it?

    Not having the freedom to gear up and try different builds without said barriers to change makes it more difficult for players to try new things, or to adapt to game changes. How many players didn't felt forced to grind the latest map to "upgrade" their builds to diviner?

    If we are talking about WvW mains, it must be really annoying being forced to PvE (extensively at times) to acquire the build one desires. And I am guessing that's the crux of OP's complain.

    This Person Actually Understands

    If this was a game of reading comprehension skills. Then you would have just beat that game B)

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019

    @alain.1659 said:
    Can this topic also include the discussion of mounts being locked behind PoF? If you are going to talk about an even playing field and even opportunities, then you should also discuss the latest mount release and how they are only given to players who have PoF. As it is a huge advantage (in every post people talk about how it balances the zergers vs roamers) it should not be locked behind the expansion. Lets discuss this before the amulet-stat system which can actually be compensated by doing pve or doing wvw and getting enough money. But mount problem cannot. No PoF, no mount. Here is the biggest lack of equal playing field.

    Thought about it before. And Yes it could. Though, I started typing this is my spare time before mounts and I figured mounts were too new. So I wanted to see what would happen with them after a decent period of time in fairness.

    Also, I figured it would be hard to talk about Gear and Mounts at the same time. Mounts will probably need their own post/space to get clearer responses regarding just them :)

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @schloumou.3982 said:
    Not taking sides or anything, but no one actually mentions an advantage of having a gear based system besides flexibility. But in reality this is not a feature of gear but rather the opposite.
    So what if you would implement a mechanic that allows players to just freely select the stats of every slot from all available combinations?
    You would be way more flexible in build crafting and the playing field would be even. Any downsides I am missing?

    Exactly. 100% You get it.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If I can pick any stat for any piece with no limitation, sure why not. No need for a legendary from there on out (or asc). I wouldn't even need to get warbringer.

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    If I can pick any stat for any piece with no limitation, sure why not. No need for a legendary from there on out (or asc). I wouldn't even need to get warbringer.

    Yea right? You could just play the game and have fun. No Worries about what build(s) you want or having to make it/them for "x" professions. Some professions with probably more that at least 1 viable build, as usual.

    If people wanna grind for looks, that, I can totally understand because looks aren't necessary. How we experience playing the game is.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Whiteout.1975Whiteout.1975 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

    Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

    Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

    It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.

    Guild Pride > Server Pride
    WvW: "We are all Hamsters running on a wheel. After we are done running on our wheels. Our treat so to speak is ANOTHER WHEEL (Server to fight). If not the same very wheel we just got done running on... excuse me while I go look around for a real treat."

  • joneirikb.7506joneirikb.7506 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In short, I would like stats/gear to be standardized somehow between all players, and it doesn't even have to be the PVP amulet system.

    But on the other hand, I also think that the actual gear is the least of balancing problems right now. And that there are plenty of other things that would need to be corrected first, before gear-balance would become very notable.

    (AoE's, mass player combat in general, the spam meta, damage stacks/modifiers, way too many invulnerable and other defenses, etc)

    Elrik Noj (Norn Guardian, Kaineng [SIN][Owls])
    "Understanding is a three edged sword: your side, their side, and the truth." - J. Michael Straczynski
    Currently playing: One Must Fall 2097, Spirit Island (board game)

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

    Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

    Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

    It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.

    Welcome to mmo gaming. Be thankful we don't have gear treadmills like other such games.

    Spvp exists. And btw it only takes 1-2 months to make celestial gear if you craft it rather than do the smart thing and buy selector gear.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Whiteout.1975 said:
    (The following is my 2nd Problem with WvW out of my Top 5) (Also, sorry for the length, but felt each part is necessary)

    Gear Influences Experience

    You know, one thing I really tend to love about games in general... Are the piece's it takes to play them. Now, these of coarse are important, because they Strongly influence mine, yours or anyone's Experience playing the game; outside of just pure skill. Which can ether elicit a Positive or Negative (somewhere in that spectrum) feeling/understanding regarding games. This outcome can easily occur when those pieces are coupled with those various skill sets that us Players, more uniquely possess. As well as our (as Players) processes in the experience's around those pieces (like how to get those pieces). Not just skill alone.
    However, I want to talk about the in game pieces. More specifically... Gear.
    Now, how much influence can these various pieces of "Gear" offer? Depends. It really depends on how well the Gear is balanced. Alongside how well the things (like Professions) are being influenced, by Gear, are balanced. Feeding ultimately into each of our own individual experiences.
    This is important because our "experiences" are how we directly value our time playing the game. Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?

    However, that's Not actually the kinds of balance I wish to talk about here. No... Instead, what I wish to talk about is another balance. Related to Gear and overall balance. I would like to call this...
    "The Balance of Reasonable Opportunity". Otherwise known as "An Equal Playing Field" (you'll see). That is also in Strong relation to Gear, but involving a focus on "Gear Stats". Including the opportunities it provides towards better ("Good") experiences. Basically, how we go about obtaining our desired Gear Stats. Across our "x" amount of characters. And the Impact that process has, without a shadow of a doubt, onto overall WvW Balance. Thus, again, ultimately "into each of our own individual experiences". Again asking the question we always ask ourselves... "Is the experience Good, Bad or somewhere in between?"

    Well, the answer to that question is more or less unique. Firstly, are all of our experiences in obtaining our desired gear stats the same? No, obviously not. If I want to play 7 of the 9 professions (with desired builds) vs. someone who only wants to 2 of the 9. Guess what? I am going to have the experience of having to grind (aka Work...) harder. Than that other player. Simply because I want to try to have fun playing more builds on professions. And that's 1 example. Before we could go into the next extreme. That is, having at least a couple or more viable builds per profession. However you get the point. So the fact of the matter is... The Players that wish to experience/enjoy the game further, on builds. Quite literally, have to pay an absurd amount (aside from time spent), just to be able to experience it.
    Now initially, this sounds a bit weird and really just counterproductive by limiting that experience. Though, the grind has an end at least... Right? Yes, of course... Legendary's. However, is it Reasonable? That's a BIG "NO". Not for this reason. Why? Simply because it turns Legendary's into a Complete (VERY EXPENSIVE/Time Gated) "MUST HAVE" to play WvW "Stat Worry Free". And to have to do that across "x" professions/builds just to be able to experience WvW "Stat Worry Free" (At least as close we can currently get to it)... is pure insanity & Imbalanced. This is in part, what can make it harder for players to become accustomed to WvW. They have to "Worry" about their experience. The more they wish to explore it. Leading to other experience's (like fights involving overall balance) that they don't even know if they'll even enjoy. And this is primarily, if not Exactly, why People who go for legendary gear... Go for legendary gear. So that they don't have to really "Worry" about being able to play in a manner that they may enjoy. However, still only for the characters that own it/can use it. With far less Stress and Worry. (@Anet, please try to take that near continuous toxic "Worry" away)
    That said, I'm going to prove all this further with a quote from a link. That will recognize all this and more...

    "An Equal Playing Field"

    The Link https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Structured_PvP. The Quote is from the "Gear and builds" section reads as follows:

    "The attributes, runes, and sigils from a character's PvE equipment are not used in structured PvP maps. Instead, equipment attributes are normalized, and players select a rune set, a sigil set, a PvP-specific amulet, and a set of specializations in the PvP Build panel. This build is maintained separately from the player's normal PvE or WvW build, and is automatically applied whenever a character enters the structured PvP lobby map. This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players. Players need to equip chest, legs and foot armor to achieve the base armor value, but hands, shoulders and head may be ignored."

    I went ahead and put the main take away there in bold. Which again states:

    • "This mechanic allows players to be on an equal playing field with the same attributes, skills, and equipment options as other players".

    So the Fact is... WvW does NOT have such a considerate "mechanic". Therefore, we are by no means considered on an "equal playing field", from the moment you or we step into WvW. And every time after. So the next time you or anyone else has any feelings towards the "overall balance" ... Remember, you/I/they weren't even on "an equal playing field" to begin with.
    And that goes beyond being outnumbered or vice versa.

    More Justification as to why this is important... Another Link and another Quote...

    "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode"

    This time, taking a quote from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World from under the "Combat" sub-section within the "Mechanics" section reads as follows:

    • "WvW is first and foremost, a Player vs. Player game-mode. You are rewarded with both loot and Points-Per-Kill (PPK) for killing enemy players."

    "First and foremost"... WvW is about the Combat. That Player vs. Player interaction. @Anet, you trivialize that Greatly, by disregarding "an equal playing field" mechanic. As previously discussed. WvW isn't about the Gear Stat Grind... Never was. Again, it's about that Player vs. Player interaction... "First and foremost".

    Lastly, for clarity...

    • This is post is NOT advocating for specifically an Amulet System. Only a "Mechanic" that would achieve "an equal playing field" in regards to WvW's environment and respect to its Playerbase. Ideas are of coarse welcome.
    • Legendary's: This post is NOT meant to undermine efforts towards Legendary's. I believe that there are other mean's (ideas) in which Legendary's could still be very beneficial to players in WvW. Reminder: PvP Players got Legendary's well and long before WvW Players ever did... Yet they cannot make good use of it in PvP because of that environment. Though, I'm willing and would like to hear discussions/idea's around this.
    • Economical Impact: Is Not limited to Gear and operates (considering supply/demand) primarily on a "potential to buy/sell" Not a "guaranteed to buy/sell". So it would seem appropriate to discuss where gold could go still... As it could go places now. Also, the Impact (if any) PvP has on the Economy already... Since that is a mode that already bypasses the need for most gear and higher tier gear as is. And to what degree @Anet considers the economy to be bad. Compared to whatever degree (good or bad) it is now. So, by all means... Discuss.
    • This post is NOT to undermine any work @Anet has done. Once upon a time there were crafting stations, certain land masses, place-able cannons, no reward tracks etc. that shaped WvW... Now, things are different in (what should be) an effort to strive for better. The "strive" and effort in this post is no different.
    • This post IS about the Importance of the Player vs. Player aspect of WvW "First and foremost". And the Lack of "An Equal Playing Field" that trivializes the Balance around it.

    To conclude. Firstly, sorry about the length. Tried to make it as short as possible. Secondly, @Anet... Please, in the name of all that is good. Implement "an equal playing field" mechanic in WvW... So that people can more significantly and meaningfully experience what is supposed to be WvW's main Element... The Player vs. Player Combat.

    Thank You, for taking the time to read.

    P.S. Just like "Alliances" are a "WvW" related attempt at "an equal playing field" regarding numbers. Same should go for the Gear involved in that PvP interaction.

    So in short you want amulet system in WvW because people having to farm a couple hours is bad, just no, sorry if this seems reductive but the amulet system in wvw debate has been had about a million times, there's already threads about it.

    The difference between exotics and ascended is small. (so you can try in exotics first)

    Farming an ascended set is incredibly easy, it's a bit of an effort for completely new players but mainly because jewelry is gained in such a dumb way (locked behind living story)

    Amulet system is less flexible

    Leveling/hero points takes a total of 5 minutes (15 if you count level up rewards)

    Not a single balance issue would be fixed, balance is already assuming full ascended (even tho the balance still sucks)

    This would take time/effort away from meaningful changes (this actually would be done by the same team/teams as balance changes and/or fixes)

    Even fewer ways to monetize WvW (the people I know who bought gold with gems mostly did it to get into wvw almost instantly after starting the game.

    Lastly it's an mmorpg... Some level of gear grinding is kinda expected from the genre, the current level really isn't enough to whine about.

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 13, 2019

    @Whiteout.1975 said:

    @Justine.6351 said:
    Just run exotic gear and swap it out for ascended gear as you acquire it.

    Thanks for the tip. I do this. I would like to play 7 professions of the 9... this includes everything, but Ranger and Warrior. Though, this means 7 builds initially and if I want 2 per profession. Now We are looking at 14 builds. I've done this grind as far as I could before and it's insane to get the gold for. Most of the popular builds tend to be the most expensive. About 2 months ago or so I spent. Between 125-150 gold on a Power Shatter Mesmer build (my main). Consisting of Berserker, Valk's and Maruader's. And that was to convert from previously stated ascended. To do something very similar for 6 more professions is extremely time gated and stressful.

    Also had this Celestial guard build I wanted to try, without going into to too much detail. The Fact that it was Celestial, means that it was pretty much straight up time gated.

    It's hard to just have fun when you gotta do that nonsense just to have a chance at fun sadly.

    Well, what's so strange about this?

    WvW is quite literally a time and money sink. That's what it's supposed to be. It's taken WvW people years to fully equip characters - or at least I know it has for me. I still dont have all characters in ascended, not even close. They're still exotic, and some still on "easier" gear combos over 4 stat metas and some characters have 3+ sets. And it's much easier now than it was a couple of years ago. Much, much easier.

    Eventually you'll start to stack up gear anyway. Even with the above situation that I leave as is because it's still effective, I have an entire bank tab full of account bound gear gotten in WvW (10+ ascended chests not opened, 20+ armor chests stacked for rainy days when I want to change builds, wide array of weaponry and armor for builds not used anymore). 2 months is nothing. Come back in a year. You'll have all your favorites on full ascended I'm sure.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why do people think ascended are necessary in wvw? Why do newcomers especially think ascended are essential in the game in general? Only high tier fractals NEED ascended. Rest of the game is easily doable on exotics. And that includes wvw.

  • Skotlex.7580Skotlex.7580 Member ✭✭✭

    @Voltekka.2375 said:
    Why do people think ascended are necessary in wvw? Why do newcomers especially think ascended are essential in the game in general? Only high tier fractals NEED ascended. Rest of the game is easily doable on exotics. And that includes wvw.

    Most likely true for armor. I would argue that the difference between exotic and ascended trinkets is enough to make a difference. And the extra strength of ascended weapons might be borderline important.

  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    First off, no I am not interested in standardized gear system. When I want that I go to PvP, and would probably prefer that I could bring my own gear there too. The answer to why is because I went thru the work of getting that gear and setting it how I want so it therefore has more value to me. The stuff I crafted has more meaning to me since I put in that time. I say this and I have 32 toons, 24 are geared for WvW in full ascended and working on some Legendary sets now. Do I regret any of the time I spent doing this, no its what made it endgame, its goals to work on and achieve. As far a fair playing ground I don't think we would ever have it unless ANet restricted access to WvW to enforce equal sides, levels, abilities, classes and armor. Which if they did we would still lose people since some people do enjoy hunting while outnumbered because they enjoy the hunt. We have WvW vendors that allow players to buy exotic gear at a really reasonable rate. Expanded the selections there and if players want to bolster themselves further than they can choose to go for the ascended gear they can again buy with in game mode currencies or they can craft it outside of WvW and bring it in. IMO we do not need a PvP style gearing system and we would lose on build diversity, as we already do in PvP, in WvW.

    Envy the Madman his musing when Death comes to make fools of us all.
    De Mortuis Nil Nisi Bonum.
    TheGrimm PoTBS/GW1/WAR/Rift/GW2/MWO/ESO/WoT/WoW/D2/HoTS/CU/AoC

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