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As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

GW2 meet and greet

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

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@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

This is incorrect; other MMOs have added new races halfway through the story. Usually the added race is simply locked out to that account until the player reaches that point in the story on another race, or use some kind of bypass item, avoiding the issue entirely.

All they would need is a simple tutorial chapter to introduce the race into Living World.

It can be done and there are solutions to it, that don't even require alot of resources, its just ArenaNet has lost their spark.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

This is incorrect; other MMOs have added new races halfway through the story. Usually the added race is simply locked out to that account until the player reaches that point in the story on another race, or use some kind of bypass item, avoiding the issue entirely.

All they would need is a simple tutorial chapter to introduce the race into Living World.

It can be done and there are solutions to it, that don't even require alot of resources, its just ArenaNet has lost their spark.

1) it can be doneYep, ANet said it wasn’t impossible

2) there are solutions to itPresumably if it’s possible then yes, there are solutions to it. Can’t argue with that. ?

3) doesn’t even require a lot of resources.The devs specifically said it would require a lot of resources better spent on other things. However if you know better than them how to get it done then you should contact a dev about it. I suggest that when you do so you write down specific examples of how to get around any problems with resources. I have no doubt the devs are always anxious to learn better ways to code the game.

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@seraph shay.6170 said:With treaties with the awakened, I am thinking that the awakened would be a cool new playable race that might be up and coming but I might be behind on the times though. Thoughts?

Highly doubt that the Awakened would be a playable race at this point as the story's pretty much done with them and if they had implemented them as a race, it would probably have been done with PoF.

Other races seem doubtful to me because they addressed the large difficulties and little payoff of adding new races. Maybe in GW3, if that is ever a thing, but probably not in GW2.

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@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

Was this in context of their studio working on several side projects in tandem with creating the new content?

The way I see it, they're starting to run out of avenues of new viable content. You can keep adding more mounts but soon, you get people that settle on their favorites and aren't interested in getting even more mounts except for GP or to show in LA. You can keep adding more armor that looks better and better (not likely) than the old but then people will stop buying the old and only get the new better looking stuff. I doubt a new profession will ever be introduced and elite specs roll through quite slowly and even if they pushed out more, it'd require more balancing efforts. Monetizing the story is an option but seems rather limited. New game modes?

Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it? Or the inverse of that, if you did decide to make a new race, what sort of stuff could you put behind it that players wouldn't expect to make it more interesting and attract new spenders?

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@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

Was this in context of their studio working on several side projects in tandem with creating the new content?

The way I see it, they're starting to run out of avenues of new viable content. You can keep adding more mounts but soon, you get people that settle on their favorites and aren't interested in getting even more mounts except for GP or to show in LA. You can keep adding more armor that looks better and better (not likely) than the old but then people will stop buying the old and only get the new better looking stuff. I doubt a new profession will ever be introduced and elite specs roll through quite slowly and even if they pushed out more, it'd require more balancing efforts. Monetizing the story is an option but seems rather limited. New game modes?

Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it? Or the inverse of that, if you did decide to make a new race, what sort of stuff could you put behind it that players wouldn't expect to make it more interesting and attract new spenders?

I really don’t think that new races will be the cash cow that will bring the money in. I doubt new players will buy the game just for new races (I know I never bought a game just because they made a new race). They’ll get $10 for a new char slot for all who buy one... and then what? What skins can they sell that’s specific for new races that will bring in the bucks? They’ll still be riding on their favorite mounts and still be playing on the old professions. After an initial burst of interest in armor they’ll have settled on the armor their new char will wear. They’ll still be playing on the same PvE maps, the same sPvP game and the same WvW maps their other chars on playing on, so no new money there.

They added gliding to the game with HoT which was a good money maker for them and they added mounts to PoF, also a good money maker as they sell skins in the gemstore for both of these. Twice so far they’ve added unexpected and popular new features. I wouldn’t say so quickly that they aren’t/can’t think up a new big and popular.

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@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I really don’t think that new races will be the cash cow that will bring the money in.

Well, if they require a new character slot, they require stuff like inventory slots, bags, makeover kits, gear, time and unlocking.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I doubt new players will buy the game just for new races (I know I never bought a game just because they made a new race).

Well I bought and played the game when I saw the different races, so I spent all the cash I did on the effort they put into their playable races. My anecdotal counters yours.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They’ll get $10 for a new char slot for all who buy one... and then what?

That's why I asked. Then what would you think would be some good features to make them more enticing, perhaps not to specifically you but to a wider audience?

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:What skins can they sell that’s specific for new races that will bring in the bucks?

You're thinking pretty small. I have ideas, the problem is no one ever listens to them. In fact, there's almost a concentrated effort to shut down any kind of suggestions that have a minute possibility to have a hint at maybe requiring effort to make.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They’ll still be riding on their favorite mounts and still be playing on the old professions. After an initial burst of interest in armor they’ll have settled on the armor their new char will wear. They’ll still be playing on the same PvE maps, the same sPvP game and the same WvW maps their other chars on playing on, so no new money there.

So what's the difference if no new race was added and you're doing all that with the initial 5 races?

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:They added gliding to the game with HoT which was a good money maker for them and they added mounts to PoF, also a good money maker as they sell skins in the gemstore for both of these. Twice so far they’ve added unexpected and popular new features. I wouldn’t say so quickly that they aren’t/can’t think up a new big and popular.

We'll just have to see then with the next expansion. I feel gliding was a great feature to add but I was never interested in skinning the brief action which is likely why they created another form of movement that isn't brief and more skinnable. But since we've got the ability to fly, pretty much, the whole travel feature skinning realm is pretty much covered. Rather than approach a suggestion from the perspective of "why it won't work", I usually come at it as "how can you make it work". I still feel, if their cash shop game is focused on cosmetics, there are only so many things you can do with that:

  • External Character Customization (minions, pets, personal decorated area, companions, guilds/groups)
  • Equipment Customization (armor/outfits, weapons, gliders, mounts)
  • Direct Character Customization (namely features such as hair, color, face, etc)
  • Indirect Character Customization (things like story paths, animations/emotes and voice)

So how hard have they put into these areas? External customization has some but I can see some possible stuff they can push. Equipment customization has been done to death. Direct customization has some and I can foresee much more. Indirect has gotten very little. I feel that, with new races, you hit both direct and indirect customization, perhaps even opening the door for more options (imagine if you can choose different voiced options for each race (combat only) so all your characters with the same race/sex don't share the same voice?).

Again, I'm not looking at this from a perspective of "that requires too many resources". I'm speaking objectively, as a customer, what options are there to spend money on and what is effectively untapped.

There's also the option of creating other game modes to monetize but I think it's a bit in conflict with P2W to elaborate.

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This has been on my mind lately, and I guess the thing I don't quite grasp is this.

If they're very worried about continuity (which I can understand, speaking from the perspective of a storyteller), and they want every character to be able to experience the early story content, then it seems like they already have a low effort workaround for that particular problem. Look at the Flame Legion fractal, where we raid ascalon.

The player character is turned into a Charr. They have the tech to change the player character for instanced content.

Now, ideally you'd be able to select the race of the Commander, and coding that would be work. But I'd imagine that would be far less work than is involved in rigging a skeleton, creating a variety of assets for the new player model, animating it, fitting all the existing armors to it, and voicing it. Then there's building their city, cultural armors, and starting zone.

I admit, I'm just sitting in the bleachers. But even so, from where I'm sitting, it seems like continuity errors would be the easiest thing to resolve when creating a new race, because part of the tech to do so is already here. It might not be as satisfying as a full integration into the old game world, with all the voice acting, writing, potential retconning, and map work that might be necessary. But I understand why that's prohibitively expensive and time consuming. I'd just be happy that I have the opportunity to play as a Largos at all. Setting unreachable standards is counterproductive: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

If we're willing to bite that bullet, then I think the major challenge in the sphere of continuity is how to work a Largos or Tengu into the story, and what their relationship would be with the commander. The player character could join Dragons Watch, or the Commander could die for real and the PC could replace them. The most outlandish idea, but one that could be neat, was if the commander bought it (again) but their soul ended up trapped in the body of a member of the new race - so you get to have some interesting existential memes about two minds in one body. But my point is that I think that there are plenty of ways of solving the problem of integrating this new character.

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@Leo G.4501 said:Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it?

Personal housing. They can sell house models and all kinds of interior decoration in the Gem Store. It could fund ArenaNet for the next few years, until they find something else to monetize.

I fully expect the next expansion to have housing as a major feature. In the expansion we would be given a shack with wooden mobiliary, and ArenaNet would then sell multiple kinds of mansions at the Gem Store, charging for each table, each chair, each wall decoration, each armor stand and so on.

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@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

I actually agree with him. This game isnt p2p. Its limited on funding and most people wont get anything out of a new race since it's the same exact gameplay just with a new naked model that will be covered up by gear. I rather that fund go to new game features and maps to explore and better meta events.

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@Erasculio.2914 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:Basically, if you're not going to put effort into something different like new races, stories, voices and animations, then what ARE you going to make and how long do you think you can keep pushing it out before it stops attracting more people to spend cash on it?

Personal housing. They can sell house models and all kinds of interior decoration in the Gem Store. It could fund ArenaNet for the next few years, until they find something else to monetize.

I fully expect the next expansion to have housing as a major feature. In the expansion we would be given a shack with wooden mobiliary, and ArenaNet would then sell multiple kinds of mansions at the Gem Store, charging for each table, each chair, each wall decoration, each armor stand and so on.

That's a possible outcome. I'd like to hope there are enough players that would really like to kit out a personal home for others to visit and play around in. Personally, I think the playerbase is quite casual and if the cost of entry is too steep or shallow (we only barely got sittable chairs...) the outcome wouldn't be as lucrative as one might hope.

For external customization, I personally would enjoy a customizable companion with their own story missions and small-scale PvE content to incorporate them in (like 3-man dungeons for you, a friend and the companion). Would be even better if those companions could be chosen from a larger swath of optional races like Skritt, Quagan or even villainous races like Krate or Centaur. You can even show off a companion to random people without needing to invite them to your personal housing and actually use it for stuff.

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@A Big Guy.9702 said:

If they're very worried about continuityThey have said that they aren't, that integrating into the story is the easiest issue to resolve.

Among the things that cost extra are:

  • Animating. The amount of animations for the five playable races far exceeds that of any NPCs, even the ones for which we see some of those animations. 9 different profs, each with their own skill sets, emotes, mounted, gliding, etc.
  • Armors. Every single piece of armor in the game needs to be retrofitted. Every new piece of armor needs to accommodate +1 races.
  • Voice. Each supported language needs another two voice actors to cover all the existing dialogue and for all new dialogue. It also becomes increasingly difficult to schedule enough time, for the studio and post-recording editing.
  • New home city/area. In GW2, new races have their own racial city and home instance. It would be a significant deviation to skip this.

All of the above (and more)... it's all doable. It's just a matter of how much they are willing to spend. But since ANet is a business, cost is always a limiting factor, often the most significant one.

Of course, ANet could limit the armor initially to a few sets, skip the voice, not worry about continuity, not have a home city for the new race. Then the question becomes: just what is it that people want from a new race? That brings us to the other major limiting factor. It turns out that only a fraction of players spends any significant time with non-human races. Some people only play humans, some people mostly play humans. Of those who do, only a fraction do so just for the chance to play a new race. For many, the above things are critical features.

In addition. all of these things require the same resources that are already committed to the current game. The Living World already includes a new map, new skins (weapons or armor), new animations, lots of voice dialogue, and more.


Thus both the initial and ongoing costs are substantial.

Some people have suggested that there are ways to monetize a new race. And there are. ANet could charge for an unlock or charge more for a character slot for a new race. They could create player housing, that would include gem shop decorations. The forums have been filled with such ideas for ages.

The problem is that this assumes that ANet has never considered any of it. If we presume that they know their business (and we have good cause to, since they've been making money off of RPGs for what amounts to forever in their industry), then we have to presume that they have considered all of this and can't make the math work. They know that a new race is a huge selling point for expansions, they know that a substantial fraction of the minority who loves new races would spend anything they can for it. And despite that, they still think this is overall a financial drain.

Of course, we could presume that they don't know their business (and we have some cause to doubt). We'd then have to assume that it has never occurred to them to try any of these income-generating ideas or cost work-arounds until posted in the forums. And then we'd have to assume that they are good enough to understand the idea, incorporate it into their business model, and turn it into a strong profit-per-cost initiative. Of course, that's not likely, since in order to get to that step, we assumed that they don't know their business very well.

tl;dr a new race is definitely possible; even ANet says that. The problem is that the costs exceed the conceivable benefits. It's a great game-playing idea; it's just not the best use of limited resources.

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Previous Threads Regarding New Races, in these Forums

(Partial list, see also the search function)

PS this doesn't even include all the discussions from the archived forums, threads discussing new professions (a strongly related topic), some of the "expansion idea" threads that include a new race as a selling point, or threads covering some/all of the above.

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@"nanomidgy.9180" said:Kodan as a playable race please! I really like their culture and religion.There's no reason you couldn't RP this if you really wanted. There are people in RL today that move to live with a culture of others unlike themselves for a plethora of reasons. If you really like the Kodan culture and religion, just RP that.

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@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:As I see it, the problem with races is that race is tied to the personal story, achievements, the home instance, etc making new races either needing to fit into the personal story or the devs needing to change character creation. When you consider that it took them a full year to fix one UI bug that forced the closing of the Hall of Monument calculator, changing character creation would be very resource intensive

The last time they commented on new races they said

I asked whether they have even considered adding a new race for PoF. Mike said that no and then added that new races in GW2 are "not impossible but very unlikely" to appear in the future. Implementing them would require a lot of resources that can be spent better on creating new content relevant for all players.

This is incorrect; other MMOs have added new races halfway through the story. Usually the added race is simply locked out to that account until the player reaches that point in the story on another race, or use some kind of bypass item, avoiding the issue entirely.

All they would need is a simple tutorial chapter to introduce the race into Living World.

It can be done and there are solutions to it, that don't even require alot of resources, its just ArenaNet has lost their spark.

Doesn't require a lot of resources?

Art department has to make models, and these models have to accommodate all possible armor skins and possible classes, with appropriate animations, with a note here that we could probably type out a list of 4 or 5 pages of animations that would need to be applied, and still not get them all.

Writers have to come up with a "tutorial", no matter where in the story this race is coming in, and the way this game works, as compared to other games, personal stories would need to be added as well.

So whether they've lost any spark or not, the "don't even require a lot of resources" is really an uninformed claim that I've seen thrown around a lot in more than a few MMO forums. Usually made by people who's best knowledge of the gaming industry is "I can install any game on my PC, so it can't be all that hard".

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I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like largos on a human base, but still unlikely.

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@"AlexxxDelta.1806" said:I have seen pure f2p MMOs (not b2P like GW2) introducing new races so it is definitely doable. Now it would still be a lot of work so judging from the way Anet handles things of late and taking recent news into account, I 'd say it's possible but highly improbable. The only way I can see them doing it is making a new race based on existing assets. like tengu on a human base, but still unlikely.

As we can see from https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/71333/is-the-warclaw-just-a-reskinned-griffon#latest, they can't even do that, because people would complain.

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As i have said before in another thread the way i see they add a new race is to reuse skeletons and voice over, with special modulation like norn and char, from the available races and the way it can work with the story is that they will have to be added with living world map and story for everyone, ala Caithe in Season 2, or the new race is 80 level at the whole story and they get shanked in the levels cause they hit their head or something at the end of the story step. Remember that these maps and content require at around 9 months to make and the voice overs costs on top of that, so it might not be hard to make but it will take time and resources.

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New races can be added to the current timeline and there is no reason at all to have them linked to personal stories. Why not add the race and tie their story to the new adventures if personal story is what you want? How many people have started characters without bothering to complete the old personal story at all? The race could just be added as a stand alone based on it's current history and not have it eligible for entering the personal story and qualify as the commander moving forward in LW.AS far as it requiring too many resources, well we all know they were pouring the bulk of their resources as of the launch of PoF into other projects altogether so not having them today when GW2 is supposed to be their sole focus is just opinion and conjecture.A new race does not need the entire back story it's done all the time in MMO's and GW2 doesn't need to be any different. Tengu become a playable race when we unlock an area like Dominion of Winds, or Largos when we unlock underwater realm. Hell i bet there are some people who would be willing to purchase an expansion with that theme as its sole main addition to the game, i know i would!

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