Do we still hate gearcheck and dps meters? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do we still hate gearcheck and dps meters?

Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

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Comments

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    you want to run meta composition and builds, don't lfg, simple.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Gearchecking someone in " everyone is welcome " lfg makes no sense whatsoever. But If I need players for CM speedclear I would like to check if they're playing correct build mentioned in lfg.

    My point was, get a static or join a guild that does CMs on daily runs. LFG is gambling, I'm sure you know that meta gear is not a guaranteed success.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ask for 250 CM KPs and you don't need to ask for pinging the gear. During my CM grindings I barely had players faking or pretending to be better than they were. Of course Shenanigans happened from time to time but it was very rare and I'm still not sure/you'll never know if those underperformers just had a bad day when they joined the group back in the days.
    Keep in mind that if you ask for a certain amount the players also demand the appropriate gear, skill and experience from you. They'll most likely use ArcDPS as well and will be able to rate your performance. So, sneaking into groups or making your own although you have nothing to keep up with will get you booted very fast. Statics work best but it's also no problem with pugs.

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    Any leg armor don't show stats on link. Some ascent armor don't show stats on link.
    It is not problem to have ascent set in bag for link and use another if u want do do that.

    Best check click click click kp's. But now for exsapmle 50kp is not guarantee nothing .. After some time we will prevent think about another/additional check .. May be only fractal godness, or something like that.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2019

    We started asking for the Fractal God title OR 250+ KP a while back after having tried different messages to fill our last spot whenever our static misses a member. Appropriate players join almost instantly now. ArcDPS will show you the rest as even Fractal Gods aren't always at the level you expect them to be.

    There is one rule I have always followed myself whenever I pug: "No matter what happens - never argue with pugs, even more so if you happen to be the pug trying to run alongside a guild group or a group of friends". Giving hints and pointers is one thing but then you get the type that feels the need to lecture everyone on absolutely everything. No matter how much you feel that you are right, it is just a waste of time. And most of all your own.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • lare.5129lare.5129 Member ✭✭

    Get arcdps

    It not so absolutely good choose. Anet not support that, sometimes u have additional crash, or etc. Also u always take worry - is not come some policy changes about arcdps and it is still softly legal.
    May be good idea is Anemt create his own dps meter. Will see.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 20, 2019

    @lare.5129 said:

    Get arcdps

    It not so absolutely good choose. Anet not support that, sometimes u have additional crash, or etc. Also u always take worry - is not come some policy changes about arcdps and it is still softly legal.
    May be good idea is Anemt create his own dps meter. Will see.

    I have been running arcdps for over 1.5 years. Delta connected keeps it updated within minutes/hours of a new patch. Crashes to arc are more seldom than disconnects for me personally.

    I'm sure a policy change to arc would have reddit and these forums light up like a Christmas tree during the merry season. Absolutely unjustified panic.

    But do as you want, if you want to ask for gear pings and assume people's builds, be my guest.

  • squallaus.8321squallaus.8321 Member ✭✭✭

    Dont need to gear checks. Just look at their dps with arcdps meter.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    If its in your lfg reqs i dont think theres anything wrong with it.

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    (by soft mechanics, I mean taking unnecessary damage that may not necessarily be lethal but when taken frequently enough leads to DPS loss because the player >starts panicking about trying to not die, the healer is over stressed and trying to chase down improperly positioned, panicked players and in general the attention >span for the group breaks and mechanics start to get sloppy).

    I swear to god, some players are actively trying to die. I had a Soulbeast on Sloth yesterday that would always stand on the poison floor. People can't be that oblivious of their environment, right? They legit try to die.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    (by soft mechanics, I mean taking unnecessary damage that may not necessarily be lethal but when taken frequently enough leads to DPS loss because the player >starts panicking about trying to not die, the healer is over stressed and trying to chase down improperly positioned, panicked players and in general the attention >span for the group breaks and mechanics start to get sloppy).

    I swear to god, some players are actively trying to die. I had a Soulbeast on Sloth yesterday that would always stand on the poison floor. People can't be that oblivious of their environment, right? They legit try to die.

    And blame the healer for it usually. You have people who try a DPS speed rush but they clearly don't have the skill to do mechanics, just perform a rotation on a raid golem, and then they are indignant that they are not allowed to facetank a boss into victory.

    You would think years long after Arkk and MAMA/Siax have been released, people would realize how much simpler it is to do the kitten mechanic instead of flipping out because the DPS failed to solo kill the anomaly or the healer didn't heal through the adds on Artsariv during boon overload+afflicted week.

    DPS bringing no CC or stability for MAMA/Skorvald when it's obvious there's no quickbrand or the one quickbrand there is not applying stability, swap one of those DPS utilities that give a marginal DPS increase (like mantra or pain on power chrono being swapped by mantra of concentration).

    Druids refusing to use healing spring over signet heal during afflicted week or DPS refusing to help out on afflicted fractals with high mob density not bringing their own condi cleanse. Refusing to use traited elite spirit for stability on final Chaos Isles boss or Skorvald last phase or MAMA last phase, etc.

    DPS failing to swap in reflect for we bleed fire week, etc.

    This game has issues with people constantly trying to brute force an encounter through DPS and failing at it and instead of adjusting their play to do mechanics they can't skip through, throw a tantrum and leaving.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I only really care about results.

    DPS meters tend to blind people as they can show raw values, but can't show non-mensurable factors, so I'm not a fan of those.

    But I would not mind having some sort of "breakdown" that appears after party wipes and at the end of a fractal, dungeon and after each raid boss.
    Kind of like the one at the end of PvP matches, but more detailed.
    Something good enough to see what went wrong and people can learn from their mistakes, but that won't be an excuse to criticize people if they are not doing a much damage as possible, since everyone has their personal circumstances.
    If the content is done, that's good for me, even if it takes +1 min.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Raids are already cesspools of elitism might as well give them the full basket; I mean the only thing that will change is they will cannibalize themselves and be at conflict with one another. But Inevitably those meters and such things would bleed into other forms of the game (PvP, WvW, Fractals ect) So no. I don't want them and I don't care for them just like I think raids are a waste of time so would this.

    If you want this game to become WoW the sequel then sure by all means, and watch as this game literally kills itself because raids were intended for a small obscure number of the player base. Giving them the tools to do such things means now everyone has them, and they will be abused like any other facet that an elitist can use to make sure people play "Their" way.

    but then again... Who knows; We might not even survive that long at this current pace.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    The simple solution to that would be to allow gearcheck only inside Mistlock Observatory, Aerodrome and Raids. We don't DESPERATELY need it, but If players already put effort into making such tool why not use it?

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 30, 2019

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    The simple solution to that would be to allow gearcheck only inside Mistlock Observatory, Aerodrome and Raids. We don't DESPERATELY need it, but If players already put effort into making such tool why not use it?

    No, a simple damage meter which tracks required performance data would be sufficient.

    What good is gear checking someone if you can't see how they perform on that gear? What about people who have their own builds but perform well on them?

    Gear checking is a means to an end: the end being that one wants a certain performance out of the person who you are checking.

    Again, stop using convoluted systems, get a proper system which does what you desire: something which tracks performance. Then you can remove all guessing and let people play what they want as long as they bring the desired performance.

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    Meta gear checks are not very smart what if someone came up with a amazing build u never saw on a website and u kick her/him even before anything?

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2019

    Gearcheck would help to see if given person has the right gear before fight starts. A friend of mine used to have gearcheck long before banwave and on multiple occasions someone in the squad forgot to change build from the last boss. And many times it saved us from wiping.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    Meta gear checks are not very smart what if someone came up with a amazing build u never saw on a website and u kick her/him even before anything?

    I don't wanna see such people in my squad when I ask for specific class/build. Don't care to know how "amazing" their builds are because that's not how meta composition works.

  • Spike.5073Spike.5073 Member ✭✭

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    Meta gear checks are not very smart what if someone came up with a amazing build u never saw on a website and u kick her/him even before anything?

    I don't get this, because optimized gear always looks the same. Don't tell me someone with a weird celestial/marauder mix will do more dmg than a full berserker.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Spike.5073 said:

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    Meta gear checks are not very smart what if someone came up with a amazing build u never saw on a website and u kick her/him even before anything?

    I don't get this, because optimized gear always looks the same. Don't tell me someone with a weird celestial/marauder mix will do more dmg than a full berserker.

    Celestial/marauder probably wouldn't, but someone with a mix of berserker/assasins, for example (or grievers/sinisters for condi) in some occasions possibly could. Or it might have so low impact that you would never actually see the difference in play. And that's only for pure dps roles. In case of support (or some role specialized for the specific encounter) there may be more reasons for running a less-standard setup. And let-s be honest - most commanders wanting to use gearcheck just aren't good enough on game/build theory to actually be able to see the differences between such builds and pve noob ones.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Spike.5073 said:

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Krzysztof.5973 said:
    Is it really that bad if you're asking for meta build in the lfg and being able to check those who join your party / squad if they're being honest?

    Meta gear checks are not very smart what if someone came up with a amazing build u never saw on a website and u kick her/him even before anything?

    I don't get this, because optimized gear always looks the same. Don't tell me someone with a weird celestial/marauder mix will do more dmg than a full berserker.

    Celestial/marauder probably wouldn't, but someone with a mix of berserker/assasins, for example (or grievers/sinisters for condi) in some occasions possibly could. Or it might have so low impact that you would never actually see the difference in play. And that's only for pure dps roles. In case of support (or some role specialized for the specific encounter) there may be more reasons for running a less-standard setup. And let-s be honest - most commanders wanting to use gearcheck just aren't good enough on game/build theory to actually be able to see the differences between such builds and pve noob ones.

    This.

    If a commander knows absolutely all the ins and outs of every class, sure he can demand what ever he wants (though most players of that skill level already just go by performance since they are surrounded by other just as skilled players). If you are a pleb commander who has to rely on metabattle or snowcrows to check what people are running though, you are far from good enough to judge every persons build (or understand all of them).

    You can obviously gear check, but it would be far more efficient to performance check since I personally know of some skilled players who run off-meta builds and get close to or match snowcrows performance for example.

    Again, the only reason one would ever gear check is due to demanding a certain performance of the person joining. If a player manages to bring your desired performance with his own gear and skill trait setup, what do you care how he does it?

  • I kown is a almost-month old thread, but while reading it something got my attention: healer? Since when game demands a healer player?

    I've just came back from an year away, have things changed that much?

  • Iris Ng.9845Iris Ng.9845 Member ✭✭✭

    You need healers for raids definitely and fractals to a certain extension after Anet added some spicy instabilities.

    A lot of support builds lie in the gray area where the published builds on a meta endorsing website like Snowcrows are simply not the be-all end-all. Take chrono for example. Taking exactly 60% boon duration for a diviner's/berserk mix is recommended but not always bring the best results overall. If the chrono has to run mechanics (cannon for Sabetha, or green for Dhuum), he would need a higher boon duration to maintain a good coverage for his group. When fury is covered and boon uptime isn't an issue, chrono can play with eagle runes for higher personal dps. As for tanking, he can go for a safe Minstrel build, a riskier Commander build or a lesser known Condi Trailblazer build. An experienced chrono player can recognizes the subtlety between different builds and understands the choices for different occasions but most pugs are ignorant. Gearchecking by an ignorant commander will just spark unnecessary arguments and a waste of time.

    You already have a dps meter, what stops you to look at the numbers to kick the underperformer?

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Like raids it promotes cancerous behavior, I mean sure fractals had and has it and so does pvp/wvw to some point. But the raiding community is by far the most toxic community I have ever seen; At least within guild wars as a whole. I dislike the idea of dps meters being here as it brings us closer to being like "WoW" And other mmo's rather than the innovative different child this game was meant to be.

    I have a guild mate who has a dps meter, and I can tell you there is nothing more annoying than being told where you stack up on the meter. Im not low end at all either I just don't really care and thinks its stupid; I don't need to know what I bring to an engagement on the front of damage. I know Im bringing enough, I know Im doing fine because my target dies regardless of if Im getting help or not. ~ It's a turn off from the game and I feel it has no place here, like raids. But then again im the odd-ball out in this community so to each their own.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to address the single argument done somewhere up there that ArcDPS promotes specifically egotistical behavior (e.g leaving your mates downed during Fractals because you have to strive to get top DPS),

    Most T4 groups I join use arc, specially CM ones when I used to do it consistently. I'm the kind of person who doesn't hesitate to get away from the fight when healer is having a hard time and go out of my way to res people who got accidentally downed far from group due to bad mechanics. Usually I'm the one DPS that doesn't get downed but sometimes get anywhere from 2/3 to even 1/3 of the average DPS of the other players, and let me tell you, I almost never get scoffed for this. It's always 'gj' and 'phew' and 'nice' when you're the last man standing and salvages an attempt, and actually experienced people never lash out and blame you as long as your damage is anything reasonable and you have helped during the fight in any other ways (and if you're a healer and support, I doubt your damage will be brought up at all by most experienced groups). There are oddballs but those will pop up even in open world, so we can't use them as a norm. Kitten, lately I even play Herald most of all things so that I can specifically go out of my way and soft support if anything starts going downhill. Arc hardly makes people kitten, and the people who act like that would probably lash out on you even without any data to back them up.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Like raids it promotes cancerous behavior, I mean sure fractals had and has it and so does pvp/wvw to some point. But the raiding community is by far the most toxic community I have ever seen; At least within guild wars as a whole. I dislike the idea of dps meters being here as it brings us closer to being like "WoW" And other mmo's rather than the innovative different child this game was meant to be.

    Then don't raid, problem solved.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I have a guild mate who has a dps meter, and I can tell you there is nothing more annoying than being told where you stack up on the meter. Im not low end at all either I just don't really care and thinks its stupid; I don't need to know what I bring to an engagement on the front of damage.

    Then tell your guild mate to not bring it up.

    You might not need to know, but as far as balance, self improvement, team composition, personal optimization, finding of errors, testing builds, etc.

    You might not be low end, but you are directly benefiting from other people being better at the encounter and bringing better performance than you. Which is fine in a guild setting and as long as the encounter is successful.

    Now imagine if the encounter was not successful, you were on a "non-meta class" and there was no metric to see who performed in what way? Guess who gets removed no matter their performance: you.

    Damage meters are tools for information. You are complaining about how a person uses that information. That is not the same as complaining about making this information available even if many people want to equate those two.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    I know Im bringing enough, I know Im doing fine because my target dies regardless of if Im getting help or not. ~ It's a turn off from the game and I feel it has no place here, like raids. But then again im the odd-ball out in this community so to each their own.

    Yes, because your past performance will be indicative of any future performance, especially on new encounters. /s

    If content is meaningless like T4 fractals, easy raid bosses, dungeons, open world, no one cares. Your guild mate is simply being annoying then if he doesn't react to people telling him to stop talking about dps meters.

    I doubt you have any idea what your performance is on challenging content, at least not consistently. When things go wrong is when having a good overview of people's performance is of value, on many different levels.

    I know exactly what I bring to the table and how well I do, raids aren't difficult nor are their intuitive or challenging. Nor are fractals, infact they are not hard at all simply are better variants of dungeon content; With raids being a larger scaled dungeon with one shot mechanics that if you can't figure out then its not the game its you. (I do agree with that, its not hard to tell that red circle bad.) I just hate how this game is becoming a "WoW" Clone with dps meter included, you need it to do raiding which was already cancerous enough without the damned thing.

    You can white knight for it all you like I Really don't care about your opinion, the fact you assume Im not good or dont know how I do in engagement I don't need validation. I don't need to sit there and circle jerk myself to numbers on a meter ~ Nor do I need the approval of someone who supports such stupid and otherwise toxic behavior promoting content. (Im glad they never officially made a meter.)

  • SexyMofo.8923SexyMofo.8923 Member ✭✭✭

    We all love it and we love anet for allowing it.

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    Trying to achieve highest DPS possible is now considered toxic? Noice

  • Despond.2174Despond.2174 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 10, 2019

    It's not even remotely as bad as people on the forums make it out to be. I was on my DH with a GS+LB because I wanted to mix things up for a T4 daily. I did well on the golems so I knew I wasn't gimping them too much, not one person mentioned on my weapon switch why I had a LB. Just for your own ambition and self respect I'd just try out a golem to see what I am doing and if it's at least average.

    Competitiveness is fine as long as they are not exceptionally rude and if someone wants a group with no requirements or meta they should be allowed so just as much as someone who wants a group WITH requirements/meta should be allowed so.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    Meters should be expansive. They shouldn't just track damage, but damage TAKEN by source and healing per second as well.

    One should also be able to see damage dealt breakdowns for each source, like how much time you spent padding DPS with some cleave versus focusing a key priority add.

    Meters are only elitist when they obfuscate the picture. True meters allow for greater class comp and build variety by proving that other compositions can work just fine and that it's not the healer's fault you are facetanking unnecessary damage and dying or that the group DPS is so low that the wipe is due to low DPS and not because a healer spec is not viable.

    Of course you will still get the whiny idiot who complains about your DPS despite the fact you got flux bomb 2-3 times in a row during a boss fight and had to walk it out, but that idiot would be easily proved wrong by you linking them the amount of flux bomb hits via some meter to prove your point rather than letting him talk without having data of your own to present.

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    If you take a Thief - Deadeye into the golem room, and with no other variables, do DPS testing with 10 different builds / gear, you will in all likelihood come out with 10 different results. There will be a DPS value that is the highest, and there will be a DPS value that is the lowest.

    I certainly fully agree with this.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    So of those 10 different DPS values we got from Deadeye, the person who decides to pick the build ranked #3 isn't being "creative", the player choosing #4" isn't being edgy, nor is the one who picks #5 worthy of the title "Thinks for oneself" - all three actually earn the same title: "Doesn't do as much DPS as the guy who runs build #1"

    In all simplicity, true. I know you are looking entirely just DPS you can dish out in fractals & raids, so I won't start arguing about #3 or #4 possibly having utility value to improve the group's overall performance (DPS, heals, breakbar damage or so). You might not consider those, although many people do when considering group (incl. meta) compositions. For example, hypotethically, what if that #3 augments another running #1 deal more DPS together? Is it then bad choice? In your DPS meter having two Deadeyes it would tell you that #1 still deals more damage than #3, but it could be hard to see that they together deal more damage than 2x #1.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    It's really that simple. Willfully / ignorantly choosing to play a build that does less damage than what is possible doesn't make you special or cool, it just makes you less of a contributor.

    Yes, if you only look for damage meters. If you look for group compositions, the situation might be different. For example, to reach numbers higher than #3, that #1 build might need some boon & condi uptimes that can not be granted by regular groups. Or if they want to be provided, some other build needs to tune down DPS to support #1 to reach the highest possible numbers, and that would be drop in overall team DPS. Of course, this is entirely hypothetical situation.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Now there is an argument that some players cannot perform as well with certain builds, and by playing the #3 build, they live longer, have more DPS uptime, etc, so they actually offer more of a contribution than they would have had they opted for build #1.

    Yes, although you could extent it a bit. By running #3 instead of #1, generally their team may live longer, they may have more DPS uptime, it can boost some other (popular) builds' DPS output etc etc. It might be entirely viable build even based on DPS meter, if you look overall team performance. Furthermore, that #3 might be a build that fits better for several different team compos, and thus justifies its existence when PuGging. With your static, you can of course run whatever you decide your team compo to be.

    But that again isn't an issue with DPS meters; it just means that player isn't as good at GW2 as some of their peers.

    Yeah, it is not an issue with DPS meters.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    The ideal scenario would see players pick the optimal build, then practice it so they can perform at the level requisite for peak performance. Whether that is required for the content or desired by the individual player is a separate argument. The logic stands on its own. There will always be a build that is 'best', and choosing to play anything else is just an indication that your output will not be the 'best' it could be.

    Yes. But I'd extent it a bit further: at PvE land, there will probably always be team compositions that are valued 'best'. It means that some team members give up their DPS to increase the overall team output: as an example, BS warrior, chrono and druid. As long as you can choose the builds for your team, there is certain combo you think gives the best overall result (as team DPS & breakbar output etc).

    Just don't get me wrong. I have no problems to understand your point. But I'd like to make you to notice, that even what you said, you by yourself don't justify builds by their DPS numbers against golems or T4 runs. If you would do that, you wouldn't understand why there are things like chrono and druid and bannerslave in your group. What you look is to have highest possible team DPS output with enough breakbar damage, stability and such stuff, and some heals, and you are looking for optimal or close optimal team compositions, and builds & roles for members of such group.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Some groups don't care about that, while others do. Nobody gets to decide who is right or who is wrong in that regard. A group that requires all players be their 'best' has every right to make that a requirement, and if they choose to use a DPS meter to help them with that aim, that doesn't make them toxic, or elitist. They form the group, they form the rules - don't like the rules, don't join the group.

    I fully agree. If a group wants a specific build to join, it is highly acceptable. They have team composition that can only reach its potential with a member with specific build and skills to use it.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Amid all this is the DPS meter, who does nothing more than tell people the facts. That some people don't like the facts they are presented with, or the ramifications thereof, is not the fault of the DPS meter.

    I totally agree.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    @TamX.1870 said:

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    If you take a Thief - Deadeye into the golem room, and with no other variables, do DPS testing with 10 different builds / gear, you will in all likelihood come out with 10 different results. There will be a DPS value that is the highest, and there will be a DPS value that is the lowest.

    I certainly fully agree with this.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    So of those 10 different DPS values we got from Deadeye, the person who decides to pick the build ranked #3 isn't being "creative", the player choosing #4" isn't being edgy, nor is the one who picks #5 worthy of the title "Thinks for oneself" - all three actually earn the same title: "Doesn't do as much DPS as the guy who runs build #1"

    In all simplicity, true. I know you are looking entirely just DPS you can dish out in fractals & raids, so I won't start arguing about #3 or #4 possibly having utility value to improve the group's overall performance (DPS, heals, breakbar damage or so). You might not consider those, although many people do when considering group (incl. meta) compositions. For example, hypotethically, what if that #3 augments another running #1 deal more DPS together? Is it then bad choice? In your DPS meter having two Deadeyes it would tell you that #1 still deals more damage than #3, but it could be hard to see that they together deal more damage than 2x #1.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    It's really that simple. Willfully / ignorantly choosing to play a build that does less damage than what is possible doesn't make you special or cool, it just makes you less of a contributor.

    Yes, if you only look for damage meters. If you look for group compositions, the situation might be different. For example, to reach numbers higher than #3, that #1 build might need some boon & condi uptimes that can not be granted by regular groups. Or if they want to be provided, some other build needs to tune down DPS to support #1 to reach the highest possible numbers, and that would be drop in overall team DPS. Of course, this is entirely hypothetical situation.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Now there is an argument that some players cannot perform as well with certain builds, and by playing the #3 build, they live longer, have more DPS uptime, etc, so they actually offer more of a contribution than they would have had they opted for build #1.

    Yes, although you could extent it a bit. By running #3 instead of #1, generally their team may live longer, they may have more DPS uptime, it can boost some other (popular) builds' DPS output etc etc. It might be entirely viable build even based on DPS meter, if you look overall team performance. Furthermore, that #3 might be a build that fits better for several different team compos, and thus justifies its existence when PuGging. With your static, you can of course run whatever you decide your team compo to be.

    But that again isn't an issue with DPS meters; it just means that player isn't as good at GW2 as some of their peers.

    Yeah, it is not an issue with DPS meters.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    The ideal scenario would see players pick the optimal build, then practice it so they can perform at the level requisite for peak performance. Whether that is required for the content or desired by the individual player is a separate argument. The logic stands on its own. There will always be a build that is 'best', and choosing to play anything else is just an indication that your output will not be the 'best' it could be.

    Yes. But I'd extent it a bit further: at PvE land, there will probably always be team compositions that are valued 'best'. It means that some team members give up their DPS to increase the overall team output: as an example, BS warrior, chrono and druid. As long as you can choose the builds for your team, there is certain combo you think gives the best overall result (as team DPS & breakbar output etc).

    Just don't get me wrong. I have no problems to understand your point. But I'd like to make you to notice, that even what you said, you by yourself don't justify builds by their DPS numbers against golems or T4 runs. If you would do that, you wouldn't understand why there are things like chrono and druid and bannerslave in your group. What you look is to have highest possible team DPS output with enough breakbar damage, stability and such stuff, and some heals, and you are looking for optimal or close optimal team compositions, and builds & roles for members of such group.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Some groups don't care about that, while others do. Nobody gets to decide who is right or who is wrong in that regard. A group that requires all players be their 'best' has every right to make that a requirement, and if they choose to use a DPS meter to help them with that aim, that doesn't make them toxic, or elitist. They form the group, they form the rules - don't like the rules, don't join the group.

    I fully agree. If a group wants a specific build to join, it is highly acceptable. They have team composition that can only reach its potential with a member with specific build and skills to use it.

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Amid all this is the DPS meter, who does nothing more than tell people the facts. That some people don't like the facts they are presented with, or the ramifications thereof, is not the fault of the DPS meter.

    I totally agree.

    You are totaly correct. With your points. Dps meters are just for oriantation. Classes are taken for all dps they bring combined. That is why every squad has a warrior. Because warrior brings more dps then any other dps option. The reason why people look at dps meters is to see how bad/well are they doing and if the dps is high enough to do some strategies.
    Build #3 work if the player has specific idea in mind against sope specific mechanic that is too hard for the squad to deal with. But if squad is dealing with it without problems then #1 is better.

    People that dont like specific builds either dont want to admit they need it (or dont even relise they need it), or they play well so another #1 would help them much more then #3

  • I’ve said before, will say again.... any other mmo i’ve played with gearcheck has never offered up any “toxicity” that GW2 is so adamantly saying will happen.

    GW2 players just need to chill out. If you pull your weight, no one cares. If you’re not pulling your weight, they’re justified in asking you to leave.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:
    I’ve said before, will say again.... any other mmo i’ve played with gearcheck has never offered up any “toxicity” that GW2 is so adamantly saying will happen.

    GW2 players just need to chill out. If you pull your weight, no one cares. If you’re not pulling your weight, they’re justified in asking you to leave.

    I dont think it's completely unfounded in the context of guild wars 2 though. This game was built on the foundation that everyone is welcome and in the open world any contribution merits full reward. Also given that the skill differential between the lowest and highest skilled players is massive, you are bound to get people that are going to be salty towards each other. Lower skill players who are all of a sudden told their soldiers gear is not good enough when it's been "fine" for the years they've been playing wont like it and high skill players gear checking everyone will stress out more than they need to. It probably would have been fine if the feature was there at launch but not so many years into the game.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:
    I’ve said before, will say again.... any other mmo i’ve played with gearcheck has never offered up any “toxicity” that GW2 is so adamantly saying will happen.

    GW2 players just need to chill out. If you pull your weight, no one cares. If you’re not pulling your weight, they’re justified in asking you to leave.

    I dont think it's completely unfounded in the context of guild wars 2 though. This game was built on the foundation that everyone is welcome and in the open world any contribution merits full reward. Also given that the skill differential between the lowest and highest skilled players is massive, you are bound to get people that are going to be salty towards each other. Lower skill players who are all of a sudden told their soldiers gear is not good enough when it's been "fine" for the years they've been playing wont like it and high skill players gear checking everyone will stress out more than they need to. It probably would have been fine if the feature was there at launch but not so many years into the game.

    there you say it, keep your own builds for open world
    those same open world guys who went to wvw for their mount where sad and mad that they got kicked from wvw comps/squads
    those very same open world guys are sad/mad that they get kicked from instanced group content

    if they still don't get the pattern, then it's hopeless.
    i can complete open world in a full cleric warrior build with sword/horn and name it "wammo best warrior" in honor of gw1 wammo memes builds

    open world should be harder, and punish people for making mistakes.
    also, there should be more in-game tutorials like u had the "learn here how to dodge and grab the chest in centre" in the starter zones

    combo field tutorial
    breakbar tutorial
    you name it

    a game made for casual gameplay is fine for me, fine for some but not fine for the entire game

  • Krzysztof.5973Krzysztof.5973 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:
    I’ve said before, will say again.... any other mmo i’ve played with gearcheck has never offered up any “toxicity” that GW2 is so adamantly saying will happen.

    GW2 players just need to chill out. If you pull your weight, no one cares. If you’re not pulling your weight, they’re justified in asking you to leave.

    You would think it should be the opposite in GW2 where you pretty much have 2 tiers of quality for gear. Anyone who is capable of adjusting gear to whatever is needed will never have problems with gearcheck and dps meters. From all the entertaining leddit threads I've read it's usually those who run weird builds spread tantrum.

  • Shikaru.7618Shikaru.7618 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @Shikaru.7618 said:

    @Sorin Noroku.5342 said:
    I’ve said before, will say again.... any other mmo i’ve played with gearcheck has never offered up any “toxicity” that GW2 is so adamantly saying will happen.

    GW2 players just need to chill out. If you pull your weight, no one cares. If you’re not pulling your weight, they’re justified in asking you to leave.

    I dont think it's completely unfounded in the context of guild wars 2 though. This game was built on the foundation that everyone is welcome and in the open world any contribution merits full reward. Also given that the skill differential between the lowest and highest skilled players is massive, you are bound to get people that are going to be salty towards each other. Lower skill players who are all of a sudden told their soldiers gear is not good enough when it's been "fine" for the years they've been playing wont like it and high skill players gear checking everyone will stress out more than they need to. It probably would have been fine if the feature was there at launch but not so many years into the game.

    there you say it, keep your own builds for open world
    those same open world guys who went to wvw for their mount where sad and mad that they got kicked from wvw comps/squads
    those very same open world guys are sad/mad that they get kicked from instanced group content

    if they still don't get the pattern, then it's hopeless.
    i can complete open world in a full cleric warrior build with sword/horn and name it "wammo best warrior" in honor of gw1 wammo memes builds

    open world should be harder, and punish people for making mistakes.
    also, there should be more in-game tutorials like u had the "learn here how to dodge and grab the chest in centre" in the starter zones

    combo field tutorial
    breakbar tutorial
    you name it

    a game made for casual gameplay is fine for me, fine for some but not fine for the entire game

    Not disagreeing with you on any of these points but because the game has long established skill floor expectations, I feel like most casual players would rather quit than gitgud. An outcome which would not benefit anet.

  • SidewayS.3789SidewayS.3789 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    🌊 Kristoff Pentaghast 🌊
    ➰ Just a Guardian on SFR ➰
    👉 PPK 👈

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shikaru.7618 said:
    I dont think it's completely unfounded in the context of guild wars 2 though. This game was built on the foundation that everyone is welcome and in the open world any contribution merits full reward.

    And that remains true, but that is a part of the game design, while what is being discussed in this thread is player preferences.

    The game says you can run any profession wearing any gear using any traits/utilities you want, and you'll still be able to complete personal story, and participate in meta events where, so long as you tag the enemy, you get participation.

    That's a very different thing from 5-player / 10-player instanced content, where everyone has to carry their share for the group to succeed. This becomes even more acute when discussing the hardest modes of this type of content, those being raiding and T4/CMs.

  • TamX.1870TamX.1870 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019

    @SidewayS.3789 said:
    Anet truly needs to implement a tutorial zone for CC. Can't believe how many ppls aren't using CC skills in fractals. So before gearcheck and dps meters, ppls need to learn to do CC.

    ANet could implement "training grounds". For example, a "tunnel" with few different obstacles: First one would require you to evade to pass. Second one would be a door with defiance bar, and breaking it would break the door. Third one would be a door with regen so you'd need some DPS to break it. Fourth door could be door with regen like previous one, but with some sort of "poison cloud", so you would need some DPS to pass the door as well as some sustain against the damaging floor. Then you'd be in a chamber to loot your reward. Maybe it would then continue to another path, similar to first but bit harder. There could be like four "tiers" in this tunnel, and then the final chest to loot.

    EDIT: Make the entrance to "training tunnel" appealing at beginner areas just like those chests you catch with evade, to lure people in :)

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