Why don't merchant caravans use waypoints? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why don't merchant caravans use waypoints?

There are a lot of escort events, especially in lower levels zones like Kessex Hills. Escorting Doylaks and merchants between outposts are very popular events with players and I enjoy them even on higher level characters. But why don't these guys use waypoints? Waypoints are part of the lore, they also cost to use (though not for the player). I don't think it can be explained as "the cost is too much" because merchants would actually be quite well off.

Comments

  • @Apocalypse Azza.5734 said:
    I don't think it can be explained as "the cost is too much" because merchants would actually be quite well off.

    That is exactly how it's explained in lore. You can see it in the dialogue near some of the city gates.

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Waypoints exist in a super-imposed state of being "in the lore" and "just game mechanics", and which is applicable at any given time is based on what works better for the content. Normally, that is "no one but players has ever heard of waypoints, and definitely no one but players can travel to one waypoint without being at another waypoint".

    Ignoring the question of cost for merchants, Orr operates in a life or death situation as a military campaign, and they go to some effort to locate waypoints here and there, in strategically important locations like the bottom of the ocean in the middle of nowhere, but don't actually use them to transport troops or materials.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Waypoints are single person use only, otherwise there will be no need for the Asura Gates. In the book Edge of Destiny, Logan used a Waypoint to go to the queen and it seems to be pocket sized. NPCs have also known that waypoints exists, during the HoT event, Mord have been attracted to them.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • AgentMoore.9453AgentMoore.9453 Member ✭✭✭

    When you try to WP from further away in the game, the cost goes up for the player. It's implied that that's also how it works in lore; the farther you go and the more mass you're moving, the more you're paying. For a merchant, they might consider it more cost effective to go for a two hour walk than pay two days' earnings to voop to the nearest city.

    As there don't appear to be guards at WPs the way there are at gates, it's also possible that the WPs themselves have weight/mass limits.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    @AgentMoore.9453 said:
    When you try to WP from further away in the game, the cost goes up for the player. It's implied that that's also how it works in lore; the farther you go and the more mass you're moving, the more you're paying. For a merchant, they might consider it more cost effective to go for a two hour walk than pay two days' earnings to voop to the nearest city.

    As there don't appear to be guards at WPs the way there are at gates, it's also possible that the WPs themselves have weight/mass limits.

    This.

    Another good assumption would be that way-pointing is actually quit expensive lore wise. Why build airships or similar devices otherwise? Why don't all npcs just way-point around the world?

    Game play reasons cut these costs for players (imagine having to pay hundreds of gold for way-pointing). Thus while you are only spending some copper/silver as individual player, in actual game lore terms these amounts would be way higher, more expensive and unbearable over extended periods of time.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 21, 2019

    From what I could tell, it is a combination of "too expensive" and "single use". Unlike asura gates which can just be kept on for a group to walk through, waypoints seem to need triggering for every individual - and that would include animals as individuals.

    So a caravan would have to pay for transport of their entire group one by one, including all pack animals. And price no doubt increases as mass (aka luggage and goods) increases.

    It should also be noted that a lot of map stories - especially HoT maps, ESPECIALLY Verdant Brink - wouldn't make much sense if every waypoint that exists mechanically also exists in lore. Otherwise why didn't the nobles just waypoint back to DR instead of all that craziness. So there might not even be a waypoint at a caravan's destination or even along the way; or some caravans begin their travel on foot at the closest waypoint to their destination.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    Another good assumption would be that way-pointing is actually quit expensive lore wise. Why build airships or similar devices otherwise? Why don't all npcs just way-point around the world?

    Game play reasons cut these costs for players (imagine having to pay hundreds of gold for way-pointing). Thus while you are only spending some copper/silver as individual player, in actual game lore terms these amounts would be way higher, more expensive and unbearable over extended periods of time.

    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet - the closest we got would be Faren's Flyer, which was more "rich person doing stupid rich things" than anything else.

    All these squares make a circle.
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    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

  • I might be wrong, but isn't it that the player characters can use wp because of a little device in their pocket? No device, no waypoint usage. And that device might be expensive, rare and only be given to certain people (like the pc who is the slayer/hero of shaemor/snaff savant/valiant/legionnaire with a promising future). Isn't that device also the reason the PC never dies, but is magically transported to a wp if defeated?

  • Deimos.4263Deimos.4263 Member ✭✭✭

    @Apocalypse Azza.5734 said:
    There are a lot of escort events, especially in lower levels zones like Kessex Hills. Escorting Doylaks and merchants between outposts are very popular events with players and I enjoy them even on higher level characters. But why don't these guys use waypoints? Waypoints are part of the lore, they also cost to use (though not for the player). I don't think it can be explained as "the cost is too much" because merchants would actually be quite well off.

    The best explanation is that it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It's a video game and we need 'em.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 23, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    A merchant would never hunt down a bounty.

    The point, however, is that in Elona, corsairs openly call themselves corsairs. It's not a criminal occupation because they're sponsored by Joko.

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    I might be wrong, but isn't it that the player characters can use wp because of a little device in their pocket? No device, no waypoint usage. And that device might be expensive, rare and only be given to certain people (like the pc who is the slayer/hero of shaemor/snaff savant/valiant/legionnaire with a promising future). Isn't that device also the reason the PC never dies, but is magically transported to a wp if defeated?

    That's not mentioned anywhere in the game. You're mistaking Snaff's "Hole in the Pocket" device from Edge of Destiny novel for waypoints. They're not the same, though as I said in my first post, it's suggested briefly out of game that the waypoint system is based off of Snaff's device (not confirmed though).

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    That's in reality. In the GWverse, the term "Corsair" is merely what Elonians call pirates. Like "Ahai" is an Elonian greeting.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    If you go back and play GW1, they are distinctly Elonian Pirates. Even the first mission has them raiding Chahbek village from a ship. The term Privateer would mean they would be operating for someone like a kingdom, which really isn’t the case in GW.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    If you go back and play GW1, they are distinctly Elonian Pirates. Even the first mission has them raiding Chahbek village from a ship. The term Privateer would mean they would be operating for someone like a kingdom, which really isn’t the case in GW.

    Sayida is operating for the kingdom of Joko.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    If you go back and play GW1, they are distinctly Elonian Pirates. Even the first mission has them raiding Chahbek village from a ship. The term Privateer would mean they would be operating for someone like a kingdom, which really isn’t the case in GW.

    Sayida is operating for the kingdom of Joko.

    That would explain a Corsair if they were introduce in GW2. They were invented in GW1. Who were they operating for then?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Also here is from the wiki, which quotes the Corsairs from the Nightfall manuscripts.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Corsair

    You tell me. Is this not a pirate?

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 26, 2019

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    If you go back and play GW1, they are distinctly Elonian Pirates. Even the first mission has them raiding Chahbek village from a ship. The term Privateer would mean they would be operating for someone like a kingdom, which really isn’t the case in GW.

    Sayida is operating for the kingdom of Joko.

    That would explain a Corsair if they were introduce in GW2. They were invented in GW1. Who were they operating for then?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corsair
    "When Palawa Joko had begun his first invasion of Elona, among his undead armies were hired mercenaries and corsairs"

    That predates the events in GW1.

    Thief F1 must remain an instacast Steal skill. DE will simply apply DE Mark on target on Steal.
    Malice build-up independently from DE Mark. Mark only speed up the build-up, not be the pre-requisite.
    http://sirvincentiii.com ~ In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Well, airships were made primarily for war efforts, not travel. I don't think we've seen a merchantile airship yet

    Sayida the Sly would argue that she's a "merchant".

    She's pretty open about the fact she's a corsair. She's also pretty open about the fact she gets into battles often.

    What's really the difference between someone selling an exotic rug and someone selling a bounty? Nothing. Both are traders (aka merchants).

    She is a Corsair, so essentially a pirate.

    She's more like a bounty hunter.

    Yes, but a Corsair is a pirate.

    Corsairs is a French word for Privateer and there's a distinct difference between Pirates and Privateer.

    If you go back and play GW1, they are distinctly Elonian Pirates. Even the first mission has them raiding Chahbek village from a ship. The term Privateer would mean they would be operating for someone like a kingdom, which really isn’t the case in GW.

    Sayida is operating for the kingdom of Joko.

    That would explain a Corsair if they were introduce in GW2. They were invented in GW1. Who were they operating for then?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corsair
    "When Palawa Joko had begun his first invasion of Elona, among his undead armies were hired mercenaries and corsairs"

    That predates the events in GW1.

    Huh, but that’s not the first time Corsairs appeared.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Sayida is operating for the kingdom of Joko.

    Not really. She does occasional jobs for Joko, mainly bounty hunting, but that's more like freelance work. Privateers worked solely for a specific government, iirc.

    Same goes for most corsairs. Some were employed for a job or two by a ruling body - Kayhet and Varesh hired some corsairs during Nightfall, for example - but not all corsairs are hired by a ruling body, and those which are, are only hired for a single job at a time.

    Point is, it is 100% the case that in the GWverse, "Corsair" is merely the term for "Elonian pirate".

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 27, 2019

    Does it matter? If we can agree that there's a difference between a pirate and a privateer, we can certainly agree there's a difference between a privateer and a merchant. The fact that a single pirate/privateer/bounty hunter/whatever you want to call Sayida has obtained an airship doesn't mean it's a viable option for your average trader, which was the point that spawned this tangent.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • back on topic. There might be a very easy reason why neither merchants nor armies use the waypoints:

    chaos

    See, waypoints more or less dump everybody on the same spot. Heroes don't have a problem with that. They are alone and they don't get crushed.

    But nothing kills an army faster than chaos. Now try to move an army via waypoints. Single soldiers appearing and having to be shoved away from it as fast as possible, before the next steps right on top of them. Utter chaos. It would take days to sort everything out afterwards. Days while you are as vulnerable as a freshly molted crab. Same for merchants. It might be nice to shorten a route. But being trapped under a dolly is probably not worth it. Or the dolly running away while you are porting...

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 31, 2019

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    back on topic. There might be a very easy reason why neither merchants nor armies use the waypoints:

    chaos

    See, waypoints more or less dump everybody on the same spot. Heroes don't have a problem with that. They are alone and they don't get crushed.

    But nothing kills an army faster than chaos. Now try to move an army via waypoints. Single soldiers appearing and having to be shoved away from it as fast as possible, before the next steps right on top of them. Utter chaos. It would take days to sort everything out afterwards. Days while you are as vulnerable as a freshly molted crab. Same for merchants. It might be nice to shorten a route. But being trapped under a dolly is probably not worth it. Or the dolly running away while you are porting...

    Not to mention I would imagine that there is a certain element of exponentially increasing margin of error with the increased mass introduced to the waypoint system.

    Alas, half a dolyak falling on a bookah would still flatten them. Asuran gates have safety systems in place to avoid this by sending the dislocated material in parallel out of the gate with the main subject, vertically at a much safer and slower pace, as to not cause any accidental flattenings and still provide a 100% successfull throughput. Well, in several parts.

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