Every single class should have a build which allows them to play i any gamemode. Change my mind.

With already 2 specialisations + the core in the game i think every single class should have access to a build which allows them to be efficient to different scenarios.As such i think every single class, and this includes thieves and rangers to have the opportunity to build to be able to play any game mode you want and be wanted because your class has the potential to be efficient.

Rangers and thieves mains (and other classes in a lesser extend) don't have that opportunity. I don't like to be told the way i must enjoy the game, I don't mind to have to change my build to adapt my class to the game mode, but i don't like to be forced to use other class and play style which i don't enjoy to have an spot.

As such i think all and every single one of the classes should have access to a build which allows them to play every single game mode in the game and to have the opportunity to be efficient and not be despised or insulted because of the terrible performance that class as a hole has in that game mode.

And from my point of view i play to enjoy the game. Im not training for any tournament or such. I just want to be able to log with my ranger in wvw and be confident i have access to a build which will give me the possibility to be efficient in this mass scale pvp.

I think you're starting with the wrong premise because thieves and rangers do have builds which allow them to play WvW. WvW is not limited to being in a 50-man squad. It has never been a requirement to need to be in a squad to play WvW.

some people have the assumption that roaming and zerging are different modes, while its only 1 mode.

rangers and thieves mostly did excell at roaming as their role in the mode, however roaming took quite the hit with recent addition of mounts. id say without the nerfs to stealth, thieves wouldnt be much affected in their role. but rangers as they did rely on mobility and range advantage i dont see them doing much aside from dismounting lone players now (if they shoot fast enough), but their tools to disengage fights nerfed i wouldnt call them effective at that role anymore. because for roaming efficiently you need to be able to disengage fights (not avoiding them, disengaging from them).

@MUDse.7623 said:some people have the assumption that roaming and zerging are different modes, while its only 1 mode.

rangers and thieves mostly did excell at roaming as their role in the mode, however roaming took quite the hit with recent addition of mounts. id say without the nerfs to stealth, thieves wouldnt be much affected in their role. but rangers as they did rely on mobility and range advantage i dont see them doing much aside from dismounting lone players now (if they shoot fast enough), but their tools to disengage fights nerfed i wouldnt call them effective at that role anymore. because for roaming efficiently you need to be able to disengage fights (not avoiding them, disengaging from them).

Druid has plenty of disengaging tools though. Sometimes there's sacrifices that have to be made and powercreep made a lot of spec do a lot of things for free, regardless of content you play them in. Good exampleof broken roaming build is soulbeast who can pin snipe anyone at 1500-1800 range with ease and quickly disengage with a few 900+ range leaps if things go bad. The worst part is that both mobility and damage is on very low cooldown, so I dont know how many advantages you need in order to be useful at roaming when half of other classes dont have those to begin with.

@"anduriell.6280" said:Every single class should have a build which allows them to play i any gamemode. Change my mind.

A mind is a terrible thing to change.

But at the risk of being utterly glib and facetious, every profession has a build, several in fact, which allow them to play every single mode in this game. Ninety percent of them(completely whipping this out there, could be lower could be higher, don't care) aren't effective or competitive. But that doesn't matter because ANet doesn't care to balance them. They just bait and switch people into bandwagoning one profession or another with whatever sadistically, stupid mechanic they've ushered in with some content update or other before destroying that in favour of another profession/mechanic of the moment.

As far as the despised and insulted part- well, that's just value added by the gang of knuckle-dragging, window-licking, booger-eating, mouth-breathing, misanthropic, metagaming, genetic dead-ends who comprise the majority of what we often refer to here as the, "Community."

Because sucking all the life and creativity out of something and then complaining there's nobody left to play with after having driven them off couldn't possibly have anything to do with why this game's competitive modes have been little more than a hissing bog for the last five years. Could it? Probably. Sort of?

Look. Just take it for one of those 'Lord of the Flies' scenarios where ANet deliberately drove the plane, nose first, into the ocean but then rescue never, ever came.

Worry not, though, fellow traveler. There's a simple solution to all of this; "Adapt and overcome!" It's absolute nonsense, but it seems to play well with the postmodernist, fecal cave-painting masters who preach it incessantly on these boards.

Courage!

Can't do it.

1) I agree with you.

2) Sadly, I know that will never happen here cause the way they use PvE gear and can't balance for kitten, it's virtually impossible.

All classes are viable in wvw, but they are in different roles in the game ....guards, necros, rev, ele, engi, war do better is large scale fights.The remaining 3 mes, thief, ranger do better in small scale/solo

So technically every class is playable in wvw, only different role.

I made a similar post about this. I think core class should be Roaming spec, HoT class should be Zerg spec, and PoF class should be a Hybrid spec. I also said that I think we should have diminishing returns on Boons and Corrupts when it comes to WvW, this way you will include more variety of specs that Boon and Corrupt differently into a Zerg thereby making sure that the Zerg isn't 60% Scourges, 20% Firebrands, 10% Revenants, and 10% Warriors/Scrappers/Mesmers/Eles. It's always frustrated me that certain classes are kicked and ridiculed for trying to play WvW and wanting to be included in a Zerg.

@"anduriell.6280" said:With already 2 specialisations + the core in the game i think every single class should have access to a build which allows them to be efficient to different scenarios.

Good thing that's already the case. Every prof has at least one build that's useful in different scenarios.

If you're asking instead for every class to be in the top 10% of utility, well, that's just about impossible to deliver, as "most efficient" is a player-invented and enforced concept not one that is baked into class design or rebalance. Similarly, it's players who enforce the idea of what is or isn't appropriate for GvG or high-level|non-zerg WvW, and even low-level|zerg WvW.

As a non-WvW example, necros have been told for ages that they don't have a niche-appropriate build for fractals and raids, but that hasn't been mathematically true for ages. It's not the game, it's players who haven't adapted to changed balance or mechanics.

Rangers & thieves could be more useful in WvW zergs if a critical mass of those who play them were more familiar with their strengths and weaknesses. It's understandable that the average PUGmander doesn't want to take a chance. So again, that's a player issue, not a game one.

I'm not against ANet taking a look, especially for any theoretical elite specs we might be seeing. I don't think it's productive to claim that we are "forced to use other class and play style" -- to play any game/game-mode well requires adapting, even the personal story.

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:It's not the game, it's players who haven't adapted to changed balance or mechanics.

I cannot emphasize this enough, and this is why further simplification is happening in the game due to this.

@steki.1478 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:some people have the assumption that roaming and zerging are different modes, while its only 1 mode.

rangers and thieves mostly did excell at roaming as their role in the mode, however roaming took quite the hit with recent addition of mounts. id say without the nerfs to stealth, thieves wouldnt be much affected in their role. but rangers as they did rely on mobility and range advantage i dont see them doing much aside from dismounting lone players now (if they shoot fast enough), but their tools to disengage fights nerfed i wouldnt call them effective at that role anymore. because for roaming efficiently you need to be able to disengage fights (not avoiding them, disengaging from them).

i dont play druid and the ones i see usually have so low damage i dunno how they could think of killing anything, especially outnumbered. the thing with powercreep is that not just you have it, but also your opponents. and unless your defenses all scale well with the amount of opponents, like stealth, then it becomes harder and harder to kite a group IMO.

Soulbeast works in a zerg. Frontline melee axe/axe GS is great, it has everything really. Damage is way above average while still being super tanky, aoe condi clear and stun break, best aoe stab skill in game, aoe spike heal and resistance, 2 invuls, aoe regen, 1s evade on every 3rd melee attack, spike aoe WD damage & projectile reflect, aoe pull, aoe chill, aoe immo cripple and slow, using sigil of purity on axe basically clears 1 condi every 4s as it bouces and hits on flank, protection on dodge - heal on protection - protection reduces 33% condi dmg... the list goes on.But there will be these so-called "pro gvg players" who are nothing more than people who can only play in a 50 man blob with their meta build, who will keep telling you that ranger is useless.In 50v50 fights I routinely stay top 10 damage, simply because I can actually stay on top of the enemy and continuously deal damage.In some situations (specially choke fights) soulbeast is borderline OP as funny as it might sound.Wanna pew pew? Sure, go marauder and tripple unblockable (signet, wh5, trait) - meld with eagle - pop elite stab - wh5 - Leap - F3 = dead people.Wanna be really annoying? Roll a Druid, go double muddy terrain, entangle, glyph of equality, glyph of the tides - staff 3 into zerg = people stay in bomb and die, can be repeated every 25/30s.

Not saying Anet couldn't make ranger better though, just saying it can work if played right.

@"hobotnicax.7918" said:these so-called "pro gvg players" /.../ with their meta buildIt's always amusing when people use GvG-players as some kind of a jeer. You do realize that they are two completely different subsets of the playerbase, yes?

If you have some "pro GvG-players" they are unlikely to even join a squad because that would subject them to being in parties with mediocre players when they can have their own party of only "pro" players. If they do join a squad they are more likely to keep a rather low profile because a pickup group is not their preferred method of playing. They really don't care if you bring a snowflake Ranger to a pickup group.

The people who do care are usually the commanders or friends of the commanders who are creating the pickup groups to give random, unaffiliated, new and anonymous players content and fun. They are attempting to provide for you, teach you and, more oftehn than not, make you apart of their community. If you join their squad and proceed to harp on about how you will not listen to them or do as they ask, then you reap what you sow.

If people follow the advice you give in such a situation, they will only get themselves kicked. It has nothing to do with viability and all to do with attitude. Suggestions like those are all well and good outside a squad but in a squad that someone else has made to provide for you, they are more likely to kick you for being disrespectful than for the class you've picked.

A "pro GvG player" is more likely to look at it like that and suggest: Hey OP! Get four friends and form your own party, then you can be anything you want to as long as you can get your friends to agree on it.

Couldn't disagree more. If you want equal opportunity, play dragonball. If you want the classes to be different, you must accept that they will be differently effective in different scenarios. I want classes to be different and one of the things that appeals to me most about wvw is that it forces me to learn how to leverage the strengths of the class that I am playing atm . . .

A short addendum.

If a commander kicks the usual roaming classes from a squad, or dumps them into an unorganized party, that is often the result of one of two things: Either the commander does not know how to use you (not every commander is experienced and even commanders can be new, respect that), or the commander expects that you do not know how to use your class. See, if a typical roaming class (like a Thief or Ranger) joins a squad, they become what is known as a havoc class. Those classes are expected some measure of self-reliance or to organize their own subgroup. So a commander for the whole squad expects someone in that party to lead it. To lead their positioning and attacks on targets. If you bring a class like that and proceed to only follow the tag, then you are trying to hammer a nail with a saw. You have the wrong tool for the job, that is not the same as there being no jobs for your tool, even in/on a squad.

Every class has multiple builds for all gamemodes. This is another veiled "rangers get kicked from squads", judging from the history of OP 's topics.

Honestly atm, Thieves can go Core for roaming and small scale (or DE I guess..), and they can be Daredevil and contribute to zerg damage. Regardless of what some say, Daredevil CAN be top zerg damage with amazing spikes.

For Rangers, they can go Soulbeast for roaming.

Now what I would say is that imo, it would be nice if Druid could get some changes to bring it to the point where its considered a genuinely good option for zerg support.

I agree with the comments that all classes have viable builds in WvW, just for different playstyles (zerg, havoc, roaming, etc)

tl;dr - it's not possible, not even in theory

Because variety, one way will be better than the other, unless played differently, in which case it's still true, just that something else will be optimal.

You can't both play what you find most fun and enjoyable, and also contribute in an OPTIMAL way to some team activity; unless it happens to be exactly on the best class for that, but this won't be true for every other class.

It's simple: you either pick fun OR optimal. In most cases you can't have both, unless you enjoy or "start enjoying" that meta option.

Otherwise there should be just 1 class and 1 build, and nothing to be picky about. There's no other way. Balancing it's just bringing a change, not always a good one, just making things somehow "fresh" and never makes things equal, and can't, without removing variety.

If you want to decide alone (class, build, everything) and play what you like, you must go solo, or in a group where everyone wants the same. This can't be done in a competitive environment of any sort, unless you and your group doesn't care about competing. When the win matters, you have to become part of a composition that gives the most chances to win; this means being useful for your team.

The error in the OP is to equate being ideal with being 'allowed to play'.

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Now what I would say is that imo, it would be nice if Druid could get some changes to bring it to the point where its considered a genuinely good option for zerg support.

Here, let me try:

The gyro spirit class of skills has been reworked and changed to wells. Gyros Spirits are now no longer targetable and instead hover over the engineer druid to grant their effects.

Aaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnd....done.

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:Now what I would say is that imo, it would be nice if Druid could get some changes to bring it to the point where its considered a genuinely good option for zerg support.

The

gyro

spirit class of skills has been reworked and changed to wells.

Gyros

Spirits are now no longer targetable and instead hover over the

engineer

druid to grant their effects.

The thing is that ranger has plenty of useful utility skills for zergs, but it lacks a solid weapon for large scale. Making spirits mobile wouldn't do anything to fix that, especially because buffs granted by spirits arent even that effective in wvw.

@steki.1478 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Now what I would say is that imo, it would be nice if Druid could get some changes to bring it to the point where its considered a genuinely good option for zerg support.

The

gyro

spirit class of skills has been reworked and changed to wells.

Gyros

Spirits are now no longer targetable and instead hover over the

engineer

druid to grant their effects.

That is true also. But a zerg weapon needs also skills to go with or the aportation will be null.

But what would happen if rangers shortbow:

• to get back the nerfed range of the weapon to 1200.
• To apply an splinter effect to another 2 foes close the target with lesser condition application.

That weapon would be transform automatically in the perfect (not busted) weapon for zerging: Not much damage or long conditions (bleeds are 3 seconds long) but constant application.

Put that toghether with mobile spirits which can cast ranged AoE and better condition traps and there you have have a fun and viable zerg build for the ranger.

Keep in mind that the ranger theme about conditions should stay allways the same: Short but constant application.As such:

• Spirits would be a "condition burst" , would apply conditions once with short duration but a number of stacks to do a significant damage. Example: sun spirit to apply 5 stacks of burning for 3 seconds.
• Traps should be the lasting condition area of effect. Conditions are the same short duration but they are applied during a period of time: Example: Fire trap to last 8 seconds and apply 1 stack of burning for 3 seconds each second.

I had put an example of all this changes in the threads in my signature, but let's be honest here: Those would need an actual rework and i have never see Anet visibly put that much effort in the ranger ever.

But again, this is not a thread about the ranger only, all classes needs to have some build which allows them to be represented in any gamemode in a healthy and effective way .

To add to what others said, true "class equality" across all modes is impossible with the build variety this game has. There are viable class builds for every mode but some are, inevitably, more optimal than others. And, as usual, the active communities in those modes value optimal efficiency above all else. It is more of a player issue than a game issue and there is no way around it, unless you have your own like-minded "community" (static raid group, wvw roaming party).

Although in terms of player engagement, it's pretty evident these modes are rock-bottom. So even if you don't find like-minded people to play in them, you can always stay on the outside and watch the ship sinking slowly. This can be fun too.

@anduriell.6280 said:

@steki.1478 said:

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Now what I would say is that imo, it would be nice if Druid could get some changes to bring it to the point where its considered a genuinely good option for zerg support.

The

gyro

spirit class of skills has been reworked and changed to wells.

Gyros

Spirits are now no longer targetable and instead hover over the

engineer

druid to grant their effects.

• to get back the nerfed range of the weapon to 1200.
• To apply an splinter effect to another 2 foes close the target with lesser condition application.

• Spirits would be a "condition burst" , would apply conditions once with short duration but a number of stacks to do a significant damage. Example: sun spirit to apply 5 stacks of burning for 3 seconds.
• Traps should be the lasting condition area of effect. Conditions are the same short duration but they are applied during a period of time: Example: Fire trap to last 8 seconds and apply 1 stack of burning for 3 seconds each second.

More spammable projectiles don't make ranger more useful. Conditions also have pretty low value in zergs unless it's boon corrupts, no matter how often you apply them.

What ranger needs is an aoe cc/support weapon with soulbeast kit (stance share, mergeable pet, additional skill/stats from merge) which is not possible. Alternatively we need meta to shift to full melee so /axe soulbeast can achieve its full potential along with reaper, daredevil and holosmith.