What happened to Thief's "Dual Wield" mechanic?

Hey there,

I'd want to give my opinion about this case.

One of the main feature's describing Thief on Wiki is the "Dual Wield" mechanic. This one changes the #3 weapon skills depending on what Main-hand and Off-hand weapons you use. So, for example you can wield Dagger + Dagger, and the #3 skill will be different from the Dagger + Pistol.And since HoT Thieves didn't get to benefit from this mechanic with the usage of new weapons. It's because both of E-Spec weapons (Staff and Rifle) are Two-handed.I understand that Thief has a limited choice of weapon by default. This is most likely because of the "Dual Wield" mechanic. But this haven't been further explored since game launched. So Thief is stuck with the same weapon sets it had before HoT and PoF expansions.I understand that Thief got access to dodge mechanic with the introduction of Daredevil. A Deadeye plays with "Steal" mechanic. But both of Two-handed weapons lock Thief in a particular playstyle, and once you go Staff, you go 100% for it, same with Rifle. There's no longer playing with new weapon sets as Thief is most likely always going with Shortbow on weapon swap.

I don't like the way it went. And as a person who doesn't enjoy both Staff and Rifle in particular (I like traits, dodge mechanic and Mark) I feel like since 2012 Thief didn't get much use of "Dual Wield". Thief lately got a very weird buff that increased the Main-hand only Pistol #3 (if no Off-hand equipped). This is just boring, that's all.

Feel free to say what you think, cheers.

google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

@"melandru.3876" said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

I don't understand your point. Do you know what Thief's "Dual Wield" is?Depending on Main-hand and Off-hand your weapon skill #3 changes. This doesn't apply to Staves and Rifles as they are Two-handed weapons. This applies to One-handed weapons only.

Nothing prevents you from rolling Daredevil or Deadeye and using core weapons. Thus, nothing happened to Dual Wield.

I'd say it's because thief is just one of those professions with a lot of unique mechanics compared to the others. I mean, you could look at elementalist and say "but they get 4 attunements! So they got 20 different skills every weapon!" But they also give up weapon swap for it.

Looking at thief, they have initiative, dual wield, stealth attacks and steal with various traits that affect those mechanics. It's a bit short sighted for me to say it's a shortcut, but giving a thief elite spec a 2-handed weapon is a viable shortcut so that they don't also have to add in 4+ extra skills ontop of the skills that weapon provides.

Who knows, maybe the next elite spec will play with initiative and give the thief a main and offhand and focus on all the dual wield skills as it's primary mechanical focus.

@"Leo G.4501" said:I'd say it's because thief is just one of those professions with a lot of unique mechanics compared to the others. I mean, you could look at elementalist and say "but they get 4 attunements! So they got 20 different skills every weapon!" But they also give up weapon swap for it.

Looking at thief, they have initiative, dual wield, stealth attacks and steal with various traits that affect those mechanics. It's a bit short sighted for me to say it's a shortcut, but giving a thief elite spec a 2-handed weapon is a viable shortcut so that they don't also have to add in 4+ extra skills ontop of the skills that weapon provides.

Who knows, maybe the next elite spec will play with initiative and give the thief a main and offhand and focus on all the dual wield skills as it's primary mechanical focus.

Then don't you think it's kind of silly to add another new mechanic to the profession that already has the most of them?As for health of the game and design - upgrading dodge roll mechanic wasn't a good option, as this just gives more invulnerability frames to the class. But that's not the point.Just like you say - initiative, dual wield, stealth attacks, steal, traits - and instead of working on that Thieves get a completely new mechanic to use, which in my opinio0n isn't as entertaining as mixing weapons - but that's subjective.

I start to wonder whether E-Specs as they are will still be a thing in the future - as they clearly bring a lot of imbalance in game.

Seems to me like OP is confusing one issue for another. The problem is still the same as for most of other professions in the game - the core professions became obsolete and "just for fun" options when e-specs were introduced, and all weapons instead of "intended" for those e-speces did the same. Because of insane power-creep which e-specs brought, that's it. You either use the one weapon that comes with e-spec, or you won't be competitive enough, as your DPS with be times lower. This issue has been pointed out for years, I believe, and Anet haven't done a thing about it so far.

@"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:Seems to me like OP is confusing one issue for another. The problem is still the same as for most of other professions in the game - the core professions became obsolete and "just for fun" options when e-specs were introduced, and all weapons instead of "intended" for those e-speces did the same. Because of insane power-creep which e-specs brought, that's it. You either use the one weapon that comes with e-spec, or you won't be competitive enough, as your DPS with be times lower. This issue has been pointed out for years, I believe, and Anet haven't done a thing about it so far.

false

holo uses rifle, not swordherald uses double sword, not shielddh uses greatsword scepter/focus not longbowsoulbeast uses sword/axe greatsword not daggerwarrior uses axe axe mace mace not dagger (only for no pain no gain, which is like 5%)deadeye uses dagger dagger not riflepower chrono uses sword sword/focus not shield

and i could go on

dps isn't what you should be looking at... the new weapon is tailored around the new spec so obviously if you want to play that spec in a niche-way the weapon fitsif you want to play in an optimised way, it doesn't allways

like you can try play druid without staff, see how that worksor dps tempest without warhorn, as said it is designed for that spec

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@"melandru.3876" said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

no shit, you just answered your own question,no?they can't implement dual wield attacks when the weapons they got, are not capable of doing such

as i said, it's the same on weaver staff for obvious reasons.

shortbow, the most useful utility weapon in game that every class wants to have for themselves, has no dual skill for obvious reason yet somehow u stay quiet about that one?i would be to if i had such great mobility tool, poison field on demand, blasts on demand

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is just boring, that's all.

The reason it's boring is due to lack of skill choices for the same weapon set. It would be great if we get to choose what skill to use in the Dual Wield slot, in fact, in every weapon skill slot. For instance, in GW1, Death Blossom is not the only Dual Dagger skill. It would add depth if we can choose between DB (aoe bleed), Twisting Fangs (single-target bleeding+poison), and Horn of the Ox (single-target knockdown) as our Dual Wield skill.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is just boring, that's all.

True, this would be a lot more interesting. I'm afraid unlocking the whole weapon skills could be unhealthy but well. If they did this - then GW2 would be a new game to me. Every weapon skill working slightly different on each weapon? Yes please.

I'd love different weapon types to have specific effects. This could work like the common logic - You use Lonbow, then you shoot slow but precise and deadly arrows. Same with Greatswords - huge blows, slow attacks. I'd love Swords to expand more on the Block mechanic - it has a great potential.

I'd just love too see this happen.

Yeah different options to set the dual attack/strike skills to so its not the same and enemy actually not knowing everything about your build the moment they see you. Which is another issue altogether with the play as you want motto died even though they still preach it. So now its miss your backstab if you can be in stealth long enough to use it so you have that or possibility of it being missed and then warclawed to death. Kind of sends the message that you should move everything off of thief characters because they will be soon removed from the game.

@"melandru.3876" said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

I don't understand why you thought this response is in any way relevnt to what OP wrote.

@DonArkanio.6419 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@DonArkanio.6419 said:This is just boring, that's all.

I understand why they designed it this way, it makes it easier for them to balance the weapon sets. However, whenever they decide something to make it easy for them, it removes a big chunk of the fun factor in playing the game. So here we are, a game with skills that is easier for them to balance, but it becomes rather boring.

It should have always just been skills 2-4 get changed as to make the kits unique.

Enables much better balancing between them as well, since you have 60% of all thief skills not being shared to another weapon rather than 20%.

AKA kits like D/D, S/P, and P/P can be reworked substantially, while barely affecting D/P, S/D, and P/D.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:It should have always just been skills 2-4 get changed as to make the kits unique.

Enables much better balancing between them as well, since you have 60% of all thief skills not being shared to another weapon rather than 20%.

AKA kits like D/D, S/P, and P/P can be reworked substantially, while barely affecting D/P, S/D, and P/D.

I mean why not go all 5 for D/D and P/P? D/P's auto-attack should be very different from D/Ds auto-attack where D/D uses both daggers, not just the main hand. D/P can keep the Backstab and make Spider Fangs (applies Bleeding from front, poison from back) as D/Ds stealth attack. This way, they can balance Backstab to whatever they want. I mean we already know that they are willing to add new stealth attacks (e.g. MBS), so they can definitely extend Dual Wield to all 5 skills and not just #3.

Cue in, Elite Spec Dual Wield Master where all 5 skills flips.

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Nothing prevents you from rolling Daredevil or Deadeye and using core weapons. Thus, nothing happened to Dual Wield.

Well, it's true. But the point is to introduce new weapons that would work with Dual Wield mechanic. This Thief's didn't get sińce 2012 and I'd way that it's one of the major mechanics.

Thief's dual wield went to Weaver. They dual wield attunements much better than thief dual wield weapons lol

@"melandru.3876" said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

First of all weaver is an elite so I don't see how you think this has anything thing to do with the statement about "why they are only giving 2 handed weapon and not a 1 hand weapon that will allow the (CORE) mechanic to be utilized more which is (the 3rd weapon sill changes with each different off hand weapon) (or if no off and weapon as well) so in core we have (dagger, pistol, sword) for example (with the Sword main hand) just sword -- Stab, with dagger -- Flank, with pistol -- pistol whip This is what he is talking about when saying duel wield. (it even shows it on the 3rd skill in text "duel wield" when u have 2 1 handed weapons.

A reason of maybe why only 2 hand weapons been intruded on the game so far:Well think of it we have 3 main and 2 off handif we got a new main hand we wold have 3 new weapons skills right away and when using pistol or dagger we get an extra 1 for each so 2 more so 3 + 2 = 5 new skillsNow what if we got got a off hand2 new and with Sword, dagger or pistol 3 diff sills 1 for each 2+3 = 5so when it all adds up it does not matter what we get if 1 hand or 2 hand we will get a total of 5 new skills each time.

So personally I don't think it is because it would be to complected to do (after all it is just 5 skills no different then a 2h weapon) and also they have done it for the Elementalist which gets at least 4X2 if just an off hand it would be 8 skills if main it would be 12 or 2h would be 20

@Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:

@"melandru.3876" said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

First of all weaver is an elite so I don't see how you think this has anything thing to do with the statement about "why they are only giving 2 handed weapon and not a 1 hand weapon that will allow the (CORE) mechanic to be utilized more which is (the 3rd weapon sill changes with each different off hand weapon) (or if no off and weapon as well) so in core we have (dagger, pistol, sword) for example (with the Sword main hand) just sword --

Stab

, with dagger --

Flank

, with pistol --

pistol whip

This is what he is talking about when saying duel wield. (it even shows it on the 3rd skill in text "duel wield" when u have 2 1 handed weapons.

thanks for explaining, i have only 1700 hours played on thief /s

weapons fit the theme, ever thought about that?

what weapon would you give a daredevil? melee staff was the only logical choice...and yes it's a two-handedwhat weapon would you give a deadeye? rifle was the only logical choice...and yes it's a two-handed

NOW THE GOOD PART

lets say, next elite spec is a waterdancer, or whatever and brings sword offhand along with stance utilities. inspired by the bravoosi fightingstyle in game of thrones.then you would have a fitting theme, with fitting weapon and your precious dual attack.

@melandru.3876 said:

@Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:

@melandru.3876 said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

First of all weaver is an elite so I don't see how you think this has anything thing to do with the statement about "why they are only giving 2 handed weapon and not a 1 hand weapon that will allow the (CORE) mechanic to be utilized more which is (the 3rd weapon sill changes with each different off hand weapon) (or if no off and weapon as well) so in core we have (dagger, pistol, sword) for example (with the Sword main hand) just sword --

Stab

, with dagger --

Flank

, with pistol --

pistol whip

This is what he is talking about when saying duel wield. (it even shows it on the 3rd skill in text "duel wield" when u have 2 1 handed weapons.

Your welcome Glad to help:

Yea I know the weapon fits the theme (was actually thinking about stating that as well in my last post)

Yea the daredevil with a staff (no duh) and dead eye with rifle again (no duh) lol. So yea always needs to fit the theme

None the less the idea was that (duel wielding is referring to the idea of the 3rd sill when using 2 1h weapons) and like I said does not matter which we get 1h or 2h next time because we still will have 5 new weapons skills and would not be any harder for them to make 5 skills for 1h (counting the 2 duel wielding skills that would come with combining it the core weapons) or the 5 new skills for a 2h weapon lol

And yea I still would like another 2h weapon on the thief the GS with the theme be something like a samurai which would fit if we gong to Cantha next exp the watherdancer idea sounds good as well and would fit the idea of a Cantha theme.

@Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:

@melandru.3876 said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

First of all weaver is an elite so I don't see how you think this has anything thing to do with the statement about "why they are only giving 2 handed weapon and not a 1 hand weapon that will allow the (CORE) mechanic to be utilized more which is (the 3rd weapon sill changes with each different off hand weapon) (or if no off and weapon as well) so in core we have (dagger, pistol, sword) for example (with the Sword main hand) just sword --

Stab

, with dagger --

Flank

, with pistol --

pistol whip

This is what he is talking about when saying duel wield. (it even shows it on the 3rd skill in text "duel wield" when u have 2 1 handed weapons.

with rifle u got more then skills tho, u get basics + kneel, which turns the basics in even better skills + end kneel so that's 10 new weapon skills in reality (5 normal ones, 5 improved)

mace mainhand/mace offhand some kind of sapper/thug/dirty fighter build focused on cc (wow rogue-style) valid for dual attacks, lots of new optionssword offhand, bravoosi-style elegant stance-user valid for dual attackselse they have to bring in crap like warhorn, focus, torch, scepter which i'm not really waiting for

also a very important thing to keep in mind: elite specs were never designed to add to the core design, it's the oppsite elite specs were designed for a different playstylethat includes having new mechanics, or removing mechanics (an active shroud for scourge for example)

that explains why both daredevil, and deadeye hence the obvious 2-handed weapon ddin't have to follow thief's core mehcnaics per-se

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Nothing prevents you from rolling Daredevil or Deadeye and using core weapons. Thus, nothing happened to Dual Wield.

That's not the issue, stop acting like you don't understand. The OP wants new dual weild skills because we didn't get any new one since launch.

@ROMANG.1903 said:@"IndigoSundown.5419" said:Nothing prevents you from rolling Daredevil or Deadeye and using core weapons. Thus, nothing happened to Dual Wield.

Very true exactly what I been trying to melandru.3876 about the 3d skill where (if we got a new 1h it would give 2 new dual wield skills because of the mechanic duel wielding this is what DonArkanio.6419 was talking about) and yes melandru.3876 the elite were "designed for a different playstyle" but just like the elemental when they get a new weapon they still have there 4 elements that change the skills This is what DonArkanio.6419 was talking about and what I was explaining that because of the 2h weapons we don't get to use the dual wield mechanic (which yes I could not care less about lol) but just trying to explain it not complain about.

@melandru.3876 said:

@Phoenixtwolf.9213 said:

@melandru.3876 said:google the word "dual wield", there question answered

is having a staff equiped giving you 2 different staves, one in each hand? if the answer is yes, then you are dual wielding staves

it's the same for weaver, not only thief.

First of all weaver is an elite so I don't see how you think this has anything thing to do with the statement about "why they are only giving 2 handed weapon and not a 1 hand weapon that will allow the (CORE) mechanic to be utilized more which is (the 3rd weapon sill changes with each different off hand weapon) (or if no off and weapon as well) so in core we have (dagger, pistol, sword) for example (with the Sword main hand) just sword --

Stab

, with dagger --

Flank

, with pistol --

pistol whip

This is what he is talking about when saying duel wield. (it even shows it on the 3rd skill in text "duel wield" when u have 2 1 handed weapons.

Dual-weilding clubs, mace, fist-weapon.

what weapon would you give a deadeye? rifle was the only logical choice...and yes it's a two-handed

A cane? lol