At what point is a single burst too strong?

Over the last 6 months we have been seeing DE nerfed from a very strong position to a mediocre-poor position, largely due to OHK and perma-stealth potential. Imo, good change. Obnoxious and difficult to combat for a lot of classes.

Then we saw Mirage condi burst nerfed so you weren't seeing 25+stacks of confusion in addition to just about every condi in the game. Very similar to a OHK, as one or two abilities instantly downed you. Good change, though i would have liked to see abilities simplified rather than just numbers adjusted. Mesmer ablities often have high base damage numbers in addition to multiple condition, unlike almost every other class that picks between condi and power weapons. Knocking off some of the base power damage might have been a better way to balance rather than knocking down condi stacks.

Now....

How is this still in the game? Soulbeast opening strike combos from stealth are completely absurd. Within the space of one tick of regen thats 30k damage. No way i can dodge that as hes coming from stealth and scourge almost can't get defensive enough in PVP to survive even that single hit. Similarly i had a worldly impact hit for 19k out of stealth. How are people still justifying this as reasonable? Its not like this build is a one trick pony either. They still have longbow`s 1200 range 'point blank' shot into rapid shot combo that can obliterate ongoing fights. Touch it up with being one of the most mobile classes in the game and easy access to a lot of the highly desired boons (depending on build). Its really obnoxious seeing soulbeast be one of, if not the best power class in the game for at least half a dozen PVP seasons, yet core guard gets the big nerf.

its been an ongoing problem for a while now. anet seems to let op builds ruin the game for a couple seasons before doing something about them. its frustrating and disappointing.

@Zephoid.4263 said:-sometext-yet core guard gets the big nerf25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.Big nerf on core guard my as$

@Odik.4587 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:-sometext-yet core guard gets the big nerf25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.Big nerf on core guard my as$

'free' as in you need a buff that you can only get from traits (you aren't taking Stand Your Ground in pvp). Corrupts into 3 stacks of confusion and is reasonably easily removed due to lack of boon diversity on guard.

Entire class has lower power scalings than any power build class, relying on the 'free' crit in order to even reach damage numbers remotely close to other classes.

GS2 biggest tell ability in the game with giant blue swirl and projectiles.

Lowest base HP and Vit->HP scaling.

One invuln or evade

No good access to stealth

Low access to CC outside hammer, which was ALSO nerfed incredibly hard the patch before.

Crit nerf came with Smite Conditions nerf at the same time.

Also, when the hell was core guard ever more than middling teir build? Holosmith, soulbeast, and mirage have been the top power builds for years. Now spellbreaker, who was on the level of core guard, got buffed.

The primary post was about Soulbeast one of the best burst in the game despite all these other high burst classes getting nerfed. You took the literal last line and went on a rant about it? Why don't you actually read the post you are replying to. You literally haven't touched on anything related to soulbeast instead taking this thread completely off topic.

As for guard, none of your numbers are even remotely correct. GS2 has never hit for 25k in PVP under any set of a conditions that a guard can generate alone (can't generate 25 might alone, can't generate 25 vuln alone, has stand on unmoving target to cause blade projectiles to all hit). Lesser smite conditions topped out at a bit over 3k damage with utility smite conditions (which wasn't nerfed) hitting for up to 5k. Lesser didn't have split damage in pvp/pve until last patch, so everything you said about that was wrong.One of the most common sigils removes 2 boons, and guard don't generate large boon quantities so the chance at hitting retal is high.Radiance is not perma retal (4s light aura 30s cd, 8s on heal 25s cd). Try doing some math.

@Zephoid.4263 said:The primary post was about Soulbeast one of the best burst in the game despite all these other high burst classes getting nerfed. You took the literal last line and went on a rant about it? Why don't you actually read the post you are replying to. You literally haven't touched on anything related to soulbeast instead taking this thread completely off topic.

As for guard, none of your numbers are even remotely correct. GS2 has never hit for 25k in PVP under any set of a conditions that a guard can generate alone (can't generate 25 might alone, can't generate 25 vuln alone, has stand on unmoving target to cause blade projectiles to all hit). Lesser smite conditions topped out at a bit over 3k damage with utility smite conditions (which wasn't nerfed) hitting for up to 5k. Lesser didn't have split damage in pvp/pve until last patch, so everything you said about that was wrong.One of the most common sigils removes 2 boons, and guard don't generate large boon quantities so the chance at hitting retal is high.Radiance is not perma retal (4s light aura 30s cd, 8s on heal 25s cd). Try doing some math.

Yeah RI nerf was justified and slb is overtuned, let's not make this into a false dilemma, to both of you.

Well he first hit you with smoke assault (1s 1/2 channeled skill), the takedown (3/4s cast time) and in the end maul. The stun from takedown is necessary for maul to achieve such damage. As a necromancer your best bet is to try to put weakness on him before being hit by takedown. Anyway, all of this mean that you had at least 2 1/2 second to react unlike your statement about him suddenly appearing out of stealth and killing you in the span of a regen tic. I'm also not sure that parasitic contagion is the best trait choice for sPvP.

@Quadox.7834 said:Yeah RI nerf was justified and slb is overtuned, let's not make this into a false dilemma, to both of you.

Fair enough. I'd just like to see guard not pidgen holed into support firebrand as core isn't really viable anymore. RI, while having some crazy numbers behind it, was the only thing propping up core guard.

Anyways, i'm not even playing guard in the screenshot. As the damage shows. Takedown-> i popped stun break instantly->maul for 24k from stealth. Beyond automatically dodging to try to guess when maul is going to hit, i don't see how i can fight this. Admittedly he is a glass cannon, but when he can chose the engagement by having both the range advantage, the burst advantage, and having stealth for a gap close idk what the answer is here.

I've heard the argument soulbeast is a scourge counter, but i also hear soulbeast is the counter to 1/2+ of the classes in the game. I either 1 shot backstab them (i wish i could get the numbers they could get) as a thief or they easily out-sustain me and there is nothing i can do about them except disengage. As a guard they were always better at burst, sustain, mobility, and range. They are a pretty great counter to medi firebrand as their melee easily out-damages your heal and protection and their burst can down allies before you can throw out enough heals. Aegis is really ineffective as they have so many multi-hit abilities and their pet eats it constantly.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Well he first hit you with smoke assault (1s 1/2 channeled skill), the takedown (3/4s cast time) and in the end maul. The stun from takedown is necessary for maul to achieve such damage. As a necromancer your best bet is to try to put weakness on him before being hit by takedown. Anyway, all of this mean that you had at least 2 1/2 second to react unlike your statement about him suddenly appearing out of stealth and killing you in the span of a regen tic. I'm also not sure that parasitic contagion is the best trait choice for sPvP.

Smoke assault->stealth-> takedown-> i instantly popped trail of anguish-> maul. Takedown doesn't break stealt for the soulbeast.

the disable damage bonus doesn't care if you are still knocked down (unlike almost every other disable-matter ability), it just gives you the damage bonus after you disable an opponent. I wasn't even in range of him to Dagger 5 until he had stealthed, so weakness isn't an option.

I take parasitic contagion over lingering curses. I've swapped between them a lot, but i find the duration increase with lingering curses is largely irrelevant, the AoE on devouring darkness to be largely irrelevant and inconsistant, and the heal to be more valuable than 200 condition damage. Between the vampiric effects from Blood Magic and contagion, i can actually stand a chance against a scrapper and sustain over multiple rotations. You can kill scrappers with codi, but it is really hard.

sadly there is nothing we can doeither stop playing until anet finally delivers a descent balancing or play oneshotbuilds toospvp is done for anyway in my opinion there are just too few players left now after years of powercreep and cheesecancerbuildsa game with fluent combat is just no fun to play or watch at when it s not readable and every things over in seconds

@Odik.4587 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:-sometext-yet core guard gets the big nerf25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.Big nerf on core guard my as$

Except herald has 7k more HP, much better mobility and better overall sustainability by avoiding most incoming damage.

Core guardian is currently not sPvP viable.

I'm just going to say this:

• Soulbeast DPS is a noob smasher in mid to low tiers
• Soulbeast DPS greatly struggles in matches in high to top tiers, to even be viable at all

It's a classic class of something being too strong in mid to low tiers, but not strong enough to compete in high to top tiers. Before you all start proposing changes, try to consider what types of changes could make it less effective in low tiers, but more effective at high tiers. <- Because this is how players should be approaching Soulbeast right now, otherwise you guys are gonna cry for nerfs, and you're gonna see Soulbeast become the next Renegade.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'm just going to say this:

• Soulbeast DPS is a noob smasher in mid to low tiers
• Soulbeast DPS greatly struggles in matches in high to top tiers, to even be viable at all

It's a classic class of something being too strong in mid to low tiers, but not strong enough to compete in high to top tiers. Before you all start proposing changes, try to consider what types of changes could make it less effective in low tiers, but more effective at high tiers. <- Because this is how players should be approaching Soulbeast right now, otherwise you guys are gonna cry for nerfs, and you're gonna see Soulbeast become the next Renegade.

Maybe you are more experienced with soulbeast, but i constantly would see them do very well in plat 1-2. They would often beat me handily if i played core guard or scourge. Core guard i used to have a better time of it, with both of us effectively being glass cannons in a power damage race. Soulbeast definately outdamages guard though, especially after the nerf. I can see where they would have difficulty with spellbreakers and power mirage's long evade/invuln windows and repeated cc over multiple duration. It seems like a lot of the stab on soulbeast comes from longer cds abilities that give more stacks.

Maybe the answer is in pets abilities. Almost every single soulbeast i encounter is running smokescale for the absurdly strong set of abilities it gives in a single package. Good damage, cc, invis, and protects itself. What about making more sustain/boon pets viable to give you more sources of protection/stab/stun break on lower cds but with less effects? Also, why do more pets not Reveal targets? You would think scent would be the perfect excuse to add Reveal to more things in the game.

In either case, i really think the ability to load up individually strong unblockable strikes is way too powerful. DE required quite multiple strikes into stealth into an attack that rarely hit 20k and can now be blocked. This kind of damage shouldn't be so easily achievable.

The main drawback for this burst is it's melee and requires a stun so take advantage of it. Put shades over yourself to apply weakness. Pop shroud. Save a dodge when you most need it. Play the build and play it well to know what to avoid.

@"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:The main drawback for this burst is it's melee and requires a stun so take advantage of it. Put shades over yourself to apply weakness. Pop shroud. Save a dodge when you most need it. Play the build and play it well to know what to avoid.

Yeah, that doesn't work.Shroud doesn't cause weakness. Enfeebling shroud is only when you enter F5 and requires lifeforce. From the screenshot, i'm just outside the spawn and didn't have any. 'Requires a stun' is a joke. Scourge have only 2 viable sources of stab, Trail and Feed from Corruption. Feed really doesn't work unless you guess his location and Torch 4 or Heal and steal stab if he had it up. So yeah, very unlikely scenarios.

In this situation, he came from stealth into knockdown into maul. I had time to pop trail but not enough to trail+dodge after. So 'just dodge' isn't really an option.

Then take Spectral Walk and plan beforehand. If there's a class with stealth access then prepare for bursts. Have map readiness to know where the stealth burst player is.

FYI, you can dodge the exact moment you stunbreak, so plan your dodge accordingly.

The damage is pretty crazy but those same players are as weak as paper. If you get one shot like that it's likely the player lacks sustain tools.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'm just going to say this:

• Soulbeast DPS is a noob smasher in mid to low tiers
• Soulbeast DPS greatly struggles in matches in high to top tiers, to even be viable at all

It's a classic class of something being too strong in mid to low tiers, but not strong enough to compete in high to top tiers. Before you all start proposing changes, try to consider what types of changes could make it less effective in low tiers, but more effective at high tiers. <- Because this is how players should be approaching Soulbeast right now, otherwise you guys are gonna cry for nerfs, and you're gonna see Soulbeast become the next Renegade.

This is 100% false. Ya, playing berserker or the stupid invisible stack may not be viable at top tier, but soul beast dps as whole is top tier in every viable way. Extremely strong damage, high mobility and high sustainability.

Do not try to sell me that it is not “competitive.”

@Zephoid.4263Try Soulbeast yourself. Try to do that combo and if you're actually facing competent people (as competent as I can find in low plat)... I'm talking about the people that actually take the time to duel and know their class. I've been on the receiving end of these when I played Soulbeast (before WI buff even).

Spellbreakers time Full Counter F2 on the last hit of your Smoke Assault, or if you have no Stability, Shield Bash/Bull's Charge (need timing) or simply Disrupting Stab right as you emerge from the evade.Revenants can easily Staff 3 or Staff 5 or blind or Sword 3 to stop the knockdown then actually 100-0 you if their CDs are up.Power Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage variants... especially running mantras/Power Lock? Don't try it.Core Guards can blind with F1 or GS 3 or Sword 2 and they can blind while Whirling Wrath is going, but this is quite precise.D/P Daredevil can Steal or Pistol 4, but it's rare you catch one without a CD to disengage you, and good ones will focus on +1 anyway.S/D Thief shouldn't even get hit because you can Sword 3 the Takedown then Sword 2 out before Maul hits, not to mention you can Steal and you have plenty of evades.In a hurry so just off the top of my head.

For Necros or Scourges, I'd probably recommend you try Core Necro against Soulbeast, they fare better 1v1. However all is not lost, you just need to time your fear/corrupt/Torch 5 right as Smoke Assault ends. You know that combo is coming in melee so just pre-cast.About Longbow damage, since everyone from newbie Ranger to veteran Ranger Gods will 80% do LB knockback into Rapid Fire, when you are about 1200 range and you see Ranger raise hand, dodge and you would probably have evaded the knockback; CC that kitten hard and control the fight.

If not, please try to notice surroundings, Necros have the best synergy with LoS and jump-kiting - anything that lets them avoid damage is a big bonus.If there's a Soulbeast on the other team and you fear he's LB/GS Marauder/Berserker, obviously be in a position where you can quickly get behind cover, don't stand straight on the mid point in Coliseum at the start with no Shroud... that's just asking to get kittened sideways, backwards and spread-eagled.When I play Soulbeast and there's a Necro on the other end, I will gank that Necro whole game as much as I can. I will make it sit in spawn and unable to matter in any teamfight. All my CDs are saved up so that I can burst it down then cleave the stomp out.However, if there is a Revenant or Thief (or good Power Shatter Mesmer variants, those are rare like unicorns) in your team, and they know what's up, it's up to them to gank the Soulbeast back and ensure you're fine. If you don't have those counter classes... switch class, switch specs, try Mr Wurm for kiting (best use put Mr Wurm out of LoS).

Also, the LB burst and the B I G M A U L will usually have the Ranger pop all his kitten, his Sic Em, his Quickness, maybe Strength of the Pack/One Wolf Pack... everything. You avoid/control that LB burst, then try to interrupt the Smokescale meld combo with corrupt or CC (check stability, Necro should always track boons on target... everyone should check boons on target) after the Smoke Assault. Just count the hits... 5 hits in total. Start casting on or after the 4th hit on top of yourself. Corrupt and fear, or Torch 5 etc.Also spam weakness on that kitten, see if he can even do anything to you with weakness.

Get a friend to do that combo to you over and over, after a few hours or a few days you'll know what to look for and perhaps how to survive and pressure back. Other Necros can do it, you can too.

@wanya.1697 said:sadly there is nothing we can doeither stop playing until anet finally delivers a descent balancing or play oneshotbuilds toospvp is done for anyway in my opinion there are just too few players left now after years of powercreep and cheesecancerbuildsa game with fluent combat is just no fun to play or watch at when it s not readable and every things over in seconds

+1

When it consistently kills from mere line of sight at ranges defined as "maximum distance" by the game's playerbase. Rather, it should really never even remotely reach this point, but this is the absolute nuclear meltdown threshold.

@Ralkuth.1456 said:

I'm aware of how to beat soulbeast. I've certainly faced enough of them. However, i find it nearly incomprehensible how this type of damage on a single ability is defendable . Especially considering the versatility of Soulbeast and how often it finds success in the highest teirs of pvp. Yes, the answer to LITERALLY EVERY ABILITY IN THIS GAME is dodge. Yes, weakness is good against power builds. However, if those were legit answers to soulbeast, it wouldn't be among the best pvp classes in the game. Given the history of Anet nerfing OHKs, i'm asking how this is still acceptable.

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@"Ralkuth.1456" said:

He's running full glass with remorseless ...on his own Maul doesn't hit any harder than an eviscerate /arcing slice , holosmith burst, chrono/mirage GS burst and what more.The build is using is certainly harder to pul off than a core guard who picks sustain traitlines and still burst like a mofo, that ranger is running Markmanship which offers no sustain really and possibly beastmastery ..a pure one trick pony build certainly non comparable to virtue/valor/radiance build in terms of sustain/diffuculty ratio.

If you're attempting to be objective then the "nerf requests" should be directed towards some traits and not the weapon , the traits in question used are : Moment of Clarity and Remorseless which need a shave to negate the crazy burst.

The weapon skills should be leftt alone for balance reason and not argument should be applied against this idea...after all Anet went after the traits and not the GS or hammer dmg potential, so now asking to nerf weapon skills instead than traits.....would be rather hypocritical.

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@"Ralkuth.1456" said:

But the issue is here, this is not a "single ability", you weren't OHK. Like he explained to you this is the result of a combo of quite a few abilities. If you manage to break it's combo, he lose most of it's damages. You could have put a reaper's mark, a well of darkness, a spectral ring or/and a corrosive poison cloud (maybe even a well of corruption) at your feat to cut it's combo.

This is the point, for melee fight this kind of burst level is 'ok' because there is more than enough way to break it when you see it coming. And weakness, despite being useless in PvE is extremly useful against players. I previously didn't even think about you replacing parasiting contagion by lingering curse but by weakening shroud which can very well add weakness on one of your hits preventing your enemy to critically hit you (despite the 10s ICD, it can save your life in this kind of situation).

@"Zephoid.4263" said:

I'm aware of how to beat soulbeast. I've certainly faced enough of them. However, i find it nearly incomprehensible how this type of damage on a single ability is defendable . Especially considering the versatility of Soulbeast and how often it finds success in the highest teirs of pvp. Yes, the answer to LITERALLY EVERY ABILITY IN THIS GAME is dodge. Yes, weakness is good against power builds. However, if those were legit answers to soulbeast, it wouldn't be among the best pvp classes in the game. Given the history of Anet nerfing OHKs, i'm asking how this is still acceptable.

When people say "I don't see why..." it's a refutation to consider the other side of the argument. If a point need be discussed it's better to lay it all out, from all sides. There seems to be a focus on things like 1 trait line or 1 ability, and limited comparisons drawn without taking into account how the whole thing plays; cleverly done concept switch. Or maybe you're trying to be earnest.

I'm not saying complaints are a bad thing - criticism can be constructive and conducive to many group activities. But I do believe that improvements to consistent, troubled situations lie mostly with the self, and not without - don't be so sure to point the finger at others unless you have become perfection itself, like that which was envisioned by Hegel (and his vision was flawed).

I don't think Soulbeast has been that popular for as much as half a dozen seasons - in the previous metas before the S15 patch, Soulbeast doesn't actually have that much representation, Condi Mirages, Core Guards, Deadeyes and Rev (Herald) all make it fairly hard for it to see too much play in high Gold low Plat. It certainly was versatile, it had a decent shot against anything but it had to spend too much time getting pressured by classes that can last through its predictable bursts, and not outputting enough of its trademark damage.

The answer to abilities doesn't end with dodge though - as Necro back in the Core and HoT Reaper days, you don't actually have that much room for error - good Necros know they can't play passive too much and their defense has always been heavy counter pressure.

I notice you like to use OHK and "1 or 2 abilities" interchangeably. But in the case of Soulbeast, it's a CC -> Damage chain happening over several seconds. Competent Soulbeasts can actually Smoke Assault into a Hilt Bash to change things up and it comes out faster than Takedown, but even with quickness the Maul will take 0.5 seconds to cast - you can stunbreak into a dodge or corrupt boon or Fear in that time.

If you want to blame 1 class 1 build (Berserker Soulbeast likely taking Marksmanship for yolo levels of burst and no survivability) for dying and you're not going to check minimap, not going to be aware of things on your screen, not going to save your dodges for important things, not going to position yourself so that you would be harder to burst (key to good Necros)... and you believe that just nerfing Soulbeast will make this game great for you again, then next up the hypothetical future revival of meme burst specs like Power Shatter Chrono that can definitely blow up everything in the game - things like this will earn another thread from you.

I.e. When I can't do it, but other people don't have problems with it, I don't automatically assume there's something wrong with the world and others need to fix it. I assume that I suck and I need to work on fixing myself first.And don't worry, I know that I suck - that's why I'm never able to stay consistently in Plat. Working on it.

@Zephoid.4263 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:-sometext-yet core guard gets the big nerf25% free crit chance was 'fixed' only and still gives more than rev roiling mists.Big nerf on core guard my as$

Biggest tell? Wanna speak about harbingers shroud telegraph or gravedigger?And harbingers shroud doesn't even work properly like desert shroud does.You cannot replace shades shortly before the detonation. The detonation then will only occur around the necromancer.

Lowest base HP and Vit->HP scaling.

One invuln or evade

But insane amounts of sustain.

No good access to stealth

Low access to CC outside hammer, which was ALSO nerfed incredibly hard the patch before.

Crit nerf came with Smite Conditions nerf at the same time.

Also, when the hell was core guard ever more than middling teir build? Holosmith, soulbeast, and mirage have been the top power builds for years. Now spellbreaker, who was on the level of core guard, got buffed.

Well. At least you had a fairly easy matchup against mirages before the patch. Coreguard was like the only hard counter to mirage.

I could also cry about core necro being bad.

But I won't. Not every spec of a class has to be good in all game modes. But at least every class should have at least one good/very good spec in/build in every game mode.

The problem right now is more, that some classes have totally op core classes and strong specialisations, while others have weak core classes but very strong specialisations

So for necro I think that the core is rather weak compared to its elites. While core warrior is pretty strong and it's specialisations don't add as much as necro's do.