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Living World Access To New Players

Cisaro.3169Cisaro.3169 Member ✭✭
edited April 3, 2019 in Guild Wars 2 Discussion

Hi there,

I've just purchased GW:2 and both expansions, I'm a GW1 player and it just seemed like the right time to get back into the franchise, i've also bought a few friends from other MMO's with me, and we're all loving the world & the combat.

Considering i'd just bought what i considered the 'whole game' (main game is free & then the two expansions) I don't think it's unreasonable for somebody buying both expansions to assume they can play the story line of the game chronologically in its entirety. I went to start with the living world, I couldn't play season 1; fair enough I thought - it was exclusive and owing to the type of content produced for it retrospective playing of it is impossible. I like the fact there was a cinematic of it, though this could be expanded on. Luckily the content creators on Youtube for this game are fantastic.

I went to start the story - at the accessible start - in Season 2 of the living world and then I realised that i'd need to purchase 17 episodes individually to play the story properly to give the expansions i'd paid for the proper context. So 3400 gems required, i'd need to buy 4000 to get that so around £40 on gems. I really would not have minded buying the gems upfront when I purchased the game if I was given clarity of the fact I needed these to progress through the story naturally, though the price of them is rather penalizing considering a single currency for both content and vanity objects seems a bit jarring.

Really looking forward to playing the story, the world is stunning and i'm loving my experience so far. I just found this experience awful. Perhaps there were ways I could have found out this information and avoided this upset but they were not as clear. I'm aware this is likely PEBCAK but it seems like a quick win for you guys to sell more content and new players not to feel hard done by just by letting new players know.

Thank you for your time,
Charlie
PS. Why can't I use abilities while jumping? It would be fun.

<13

Comments

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 3, 2019

    @Cisaro.3169 said:
    'You can buy the gems with gold'

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    You can buy the gems with gold.

    What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

    • This is unlikely to be attainable for most new players, myself included, I don't have the gold for that so I couldn't even start at season 1 if I wanted to. What I do have is the willingness to pay for the content if it was clearly laid out as an option when i bought the full game.

    There was the option to buy Living world season 2 pack before the checkout when you buy the game from the website. You probably just missed it:

    https://imgur.com/FFFF9Lt

    With this you have the full continuous story up until the end of HoT. Then you can buy the rest using gold.

    And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946 said:
    One other point that hasn't been posted - DON'T BUY THE INDIVIDUAL EPISODES! You can buy the ENTIRE season 2 for 1280 gems. That's a lot less than 3400. And Season 3 is 960 gems. Season 4, Episode 2 was in the gemstore for 0 gems yesterday (not sure if it is today or not). And as soon as Season 4 Episode 6 drops, you can expect a Season 4 Complete Pack go on sale in the gem store - probably around 1000 gems, like season 3 would be my guess - and note that Anet prorates the complete season packs for any episodes you have already unlocked. So, assuming you grab Season 4, Episode 2 for free, you already have episode 5 unlocked, and assuming you login while episode 6 is live, that means the complete season 4 will cost you about half price after pro-rating.

    I do agree, it would be nice to have an option to buy the previous seasons with the expansions.

    They are giving out a season 4 episode a week (last week episode 1, this week episode 2 and next week will be episode 3, etc), its available to purchase for 0 gems in item shop.

    Personally I never had any issue purchasing the living worlds (I started play a week before pof came out or so). All it needs is some patience to get the gold together. I just took my time playing core really.

  • Gop.8713Gop.8713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Onox.4287 said:
    Yeah, having a full package like "Full story and content - HoT, PoF and all Living World Seasons" would be really good.

    It is odd to me that they don't do this. I have zero problem with how they implemented access to the episodes but we do see an awful lot of these posts from new players feeling like they've been had. Not really a great first impression :/

  • Glacial.9516Glacial.9516 Member ✭✭✭

    Perhaps it could be explained better or expanded upon but the Ultimate edition of the expansion essentially covers this by offering 4000 gems for half the usual price. It would be difficult to bundle the living world seasons along with the expansions because many players already have chapters unlocked. This would mean the price would have to decrease for each one or more likely, you'd be reimbursed gems for each. Giving 4000 gems upfront instead offers the new player flexibility at the cost of clarity - perhaps you don't want LS2 just yet so you play through it with a friend for the story and instead use those gems to buy a fancy glider or outfit or unbreakable gathering tool. Perhaps you are a veteran with a second account and cherry pick the chapters you will find useful, or you wait for a sale and get more out of your gems. The downside of course being that you may spend them frivolously before realizing you need gems (or gold) to buy LS2, 3 and 4 to get the full story flow.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

    Agreed.

    On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2019

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Cisaro.3169 said:
    'You can buy the gems with gold'

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    You can buy the gems with gold.

    What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

    • This is unlikely to be attainable for most new players, myself included, I don't have the gold for that so I couldn't even start at season 1 if I wanted to. What I do have is the willingness to pay for the content if it was clearly laid out as an option when i bought the full game.

    There was the option to buy Living world season 2 pack before the checkout when you buy the game from the website. You probably just missed it:

    https://imgur.com/FFFF9Lt

    With this you have the full continuous story up until the end of HoT. Then you can buy the rest using gold.

    And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

    2 days for an episode sounds kinda unrealistic unless u dont mean 48 hours of total farming.

  • Drecien.4508Drecien.4508 Member ✭✭✭

    You can skip season 2 it wasn't that great. Really grindy.

    New mount skins?! Anet take my money!

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think most confusion is cause originally it is given for free to existing players as a thank you for the loyalty. I have played from launch and have an investment that is considerably higher then someone who starts now with the game
    The original game: 60 euro/USD
    Heart of Thorns: 50 euro/USD
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD
    Total: 140 euro/USD

    Currently, when buying all this you pay:
    The original game: free to play
    Heart of Thorns: 20 euro/USD (when bundled with Path of Fire) *
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD *
    Living world season 2: 19 euro/USD**
    Living world season 3: 12,50 euro/USD**
    Living world season 4: 600 gems = 7,50 euro/USD **+***
    Total: 89 euro/USD or 50 euro and a some farming in game.

    *Often these go for a 50% sale, so if you wait a bit, it is extra cheap
    **can be bought with gold in game, it can be farmed bit by bit
    *** there are 5 episodes so far. The last one is for free for new and existing players. The second is currently also for free. This price is aimed for that you missed last week give-away for episode one and IF they do not continue in the next two weeks to give away episode 3 and 4 for free as well

    My point is that you get things allready a lot more cheaper.
    However! and this is a big however. I think your point should not be that you should get it for free, but that you should be told about it more clearly. This is a puzzle with many MMO's. I once looked into buying WoW and it is also very unclear what you need to buy. I think marketing could and should solve this by selling bundled packages instead of stackable packages.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2019

    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2019

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    I think most confusion is cause originally it is given for free to existing players as a thank you for the loyalty. I have played from launch and have an investment that is considerably higher then someone who starts now with the game
    The original game: 60 euro/USD
    Heart of Thorns: 50 euro/USD
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD
    Total: 140 euro/USD

    Currently, when buying all this you pay:
    The original game: free to play
    Heart of Thorns: 20 euro/USD (when bundled with Path of Fire) *
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD *
    Living world season 2: 19 euro/USD**
    Living world season 3: 12,50 euro/USD**
    Living world season 4: 600 gems = 7,50 euro/USD **+***
    Total: 89 euro/USD or 50 euro and a some farming in game.

    *Often these go for a 50% sale, so if you wait a bit, it is extra cheap
    **can be bought with gold in game, it can be farmed bit by bit
    *** there are 5 episodes so far. The last one is for free for new and existing players. The second is currently also for free. This price is aimed for that you missed last week give-away for episode one and IF they do not continue in the next two weeks to give away episode 3 and 4 for free as well

    My point is that you get things allready a lot more cheaper.
    However! and this is a big however. I think your point should not be that you should get it for free, but that you should be told about it more clearly. This is a puzzle with many MMO's. I once looked into buying WoW and it is also very unclear what you need to buy. I think marketing could and should solve this by selling bundled packages instead of stackable packages.

    For me it is two issues, firstly that it wasn't made clear that buying both expansions doesnt get you all the content by a long way
    And secondly that the cost is very much front loaded if your trying to follow the story (which i am sure many will do)

    At this point i have spent about £60.00 after about 6 weeks game time...not a huge amount admittedly but it is more than i anticipated when i first started playing

    For comparison, if i had gone back to wow- the latest xpac was £26.00 when i checked (and that gives access to all content) , the sub is £10.00 so id have spent £46.00 at this point.

    I know some are going to say 'spread out what you do' but i cant imagine i am the only person by any means who wants to keep following the story and not artificially 'gate' themselves.

    Ive paid now - and only have LWS4 to buy so will focus on enjoying the game! :) but i totally get frustration from new players.

  • mercury ranique.2170mercury ranique.2170 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @trev.1045 said:

    Ive paid now - and only have LWS4 to buy so will focus on enjoying the game! :) but i totally get frustration from new players.

    Just to make sure. You do know LWS4 episode 5 is for free as it is the current episode (and you should have it unlocked) and episode 2 is free as part of a promo (just check the buy option in the story journal, it says 0 gems at the price). Last week episode 1 was free, and I somewhat expect the same for episode 3 and 4 over the next 2 weeks to happen (but please do not haunt me if it doesnt)

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:

    @trev.1045 said:

    Ive paid now - and only have LWS4 to buy so will focus on enjoying the game! :) but i totally get frustration from new players.

    Just to make sure. You do know LWS4 episode 5 is for free as it is the current episode (and you should have it unlocked) and episode 2 is free as part of a promo (just check the buy option in the story journal, it says 0 gems at the price). Last week episode 1 was free, and I somewhat expect the same for episode 3 and 4 over the next 2 weeks to happen (but please do not haunt me if it doesnt)

    I am still on living world 3 right now but ill definitely check that out, thanks!

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2019

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Cisaro.3169 said:
    'You can buy the gems with gold'

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    You can buy the gems with gold.

    What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

    • This is unlikely to be attainable for most new players, myself included, I don't have the gold for that so I couldn't even start at season 1 if I wanted to. What I do have is the willingness to pay for the content if it was clearly laid out as an option when i bought the full game.

    There was the option to buy Living world season 2 pack before the checkout when you buy the game from the website. You probably just missed it:

    https://imgur.com/FFFF9Lt

    With this you have the full continuous story up until the end of HoT. Then you can buy the rest using gold.

    And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

    2 days for an episode sounds kinda unrealistic unless u dont mean 48 hours of total farming.

    Can be done if you know what do to. You can easily do 15 gold an hour just with silverwastes farming. And if you find your way to an actual organized map its much greater. Plus the 2g daily from dailies. Going completely conservatively and just doing SW farming , which is easy to do, its sth like 4 hours a day. And this reduces a lot if you are skillful in the game and know how to do fast t4 runs and dungeons runs or raid full clears. And you can mix by adding istan and HoT metas for some variety.

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cisaro.3169 said:

    And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

    Expecting new players to gold farm after playing content so they can go back and play content to give the content they've just played context is a ludicrously inelegant solution

    Not really if gold farming includes actually playing the content you already have access to.

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with the OP. The story stuff should be clearer. That said, I paid more than 100 to play all of Guild Wars 1 and this is all less than that. I know it's not price, but considering you're getting all the content that's ever come out (except Season 1 obviously) for a relatively low price for an MMO, it's not that bad.

    Remember, Guild Wars 1 was not an MMO. It was a lobby game. A CoRPG according to Anet. It was created on a much smaller scale, with a much smaller staff. It was linear and pathed. You couldn't enter the water. Prophecies came with 203 quests and 25 missions. The core game came with 50 missions at least per race, and over 1500 dynamic events, not including hearts.

    At the end of the day, the price for what you're getting even if you have to buy it all is worth it.

    That said, the confusion and lack of easily available information or even a pack that contains ALL the content is pretty bad.

  • EdgarMTanaka.7291EdgarMTanaka.7291 Member ✭✭✭

    I guess it is all about playstyle and more but when I play a game a wanna get the most out of the game. By that I mean I start by playing the main story, while doing the main story I also do map completion when I get to a new map through the story. I also do not usually but crafting mats on TP and I do not waste my gold on fluff when I have a goal to get gold to buy. At the time I would reach the end of the main story I would have enough Gold to atleast buy season 2. It's sad though that you didnt get better information.

  • Etria.3642Etria.3642 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turin.6921 said:

    @Cisaro.3169 said:

    And it is actually pretty attainable: currently the exchange is like 37 gold for 100 gems. Thats about two days of gold farming (if you know what to do) per episode. And if you buy the pack its a bit less. By the time you finish HoT you should pretty much know everything you need to farm gold efficiently.

    Expecting new players to gold farm after playing content so they can go back and play content to give the content they've just played context is a ludicrously inelegant solution

    Not really if gold farming includes actually playing the content you already have access to.

    It took me a year before I ventured into gold-farming, and that, really, only because I moved and had zero income coming in so spending anything then was frivolous.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

  • @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

    Agreed.

    On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

    Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

    Agreed.

    On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

    Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

    Not sure that I can agree. The main story of GW2 is the battle against the Dragons. This battle continues in the expansions, picking up where the first chapter left off.

  • Tiviana.2650Tiviana.2650 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    You can buy the gems with gold.

    What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

    That will take a new player a looong time to get that much gold. Maybe you vets dont realize it because you have amassed large sums over the years! Not to mention the exchange rate is absolute kitten. I mean some people cant play all day either they cant acquire that amount of gold in a reasonable time. I play in the evenings and have played for 4 months, in that time i have gained around 300 gold, yes time is a factor, not to mention the cost to level crafting and craft gear. That eats what profits you make. So you can spend your playtime grinding for gold and selling if you are a new player, and it will still take a long while to get enough gold to buy the LW series , which imo should be part of the gameplay.

  • @Ashen.2907 said:

    @robertthebard.8150 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

    Agreed.

    On the other hand the main story of the game is largely dependent on the LS to make any kind of sense. I think that the current system would be more palatable if the LS DLC were side stories and the like rather than gates to the main story in a story driven medium.

    Actually, the main story of the game is included in vanilla. Expansions are after the fact stories, not part of the main game, hence "Expansion". Generally speaking, the LSs are closer to prologues to their corresponding expansions, barring the current seasons, so far as we know right now.

    Not sure that I can agree. The main story of GW2 is the battle against the Dragons. This battle continues in the expansions, picking up where the first chapter left off.

    Maybe. However, for what we started with, and I don't want to get too spoilery, we wrapped it up quite nicely in the vanilla game. From 30 to cap, and beyond a bit, we had a steady stream of personal story content that even had a keg party when it was over...

  • @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?

    • Charge more for the expansions?
    • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
    • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

    There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?

    • Charge more for the expansions?
    • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
    • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

    There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

    I admit I prefer looking at things from the consumer side, so Anet's bottom line wasn't my main concern. It's an interesting question though, if I was in their place I'd either make it free for all or make them paid DLC for all. And if I went with the latter, I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps. There is plenty of GW lore to make story that is detached from the core narrative and still make it compelling.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

  • Just a flesh wound.3589Just a flesh wound.3589 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 4, 2019

    @Tiviana.2650 said:

    @Just a flesh wound.3589 said:
    You can buy the gems with gold.

    What you might consider doing is buying one episode with gold (or cash if you’re in a hurry and don’t want to wait while you’re farming gold), play through it while saving up gold then when you’re done with it buy the next episode with gold. Rinse and repeat.

    That will take a new player a looong time to get that much gold. Maybe you vets dont realize it because you have amassed large sums over the years! Not to mention the exchange rate is absolute kitten. I mean some people cant play all day either they cant acquire that amount of gold in a reasonable time. I play in the evenings and have played for 4 months, in that time i have gained around 300 gold, yes time is a factor, not to mention the cost to level crafting and craft gear. That eats what profits you make. So you can spend your playtime grinding for gold and selling if you are a new player, and it will still take a long while to get enough gold to buy the LW series , which imo should be part of the gameplay.

    You underestimate the amount of gold a new account can get in one month if they play regularly and focus a bit on making gold.

    I was suggesting buying one episode at a time with gold bought gems where each episode is 200 gems. If you do your daily each day for a month, that’s 60 gold. Currently 60 gold buys 170 gems. That leaves 30 gems, currently about 11 gold. Take your char on a farming run for just one day to the mid to upper level maps and harvest everything you can. Turn the logs into planks and the ore into ingots and sell it on the trading post. You’ll have the 11 gold and more.

    This is a farming route I used to do, core maps only. It has waypoints and indicates what to get there, plus some directions. (It’s a bit cryptic since I made it for my own use). If you don’t have a personal guild make one. I think it’s a gold. Copy paste it on the guild announcement and set your chat to have it post in that guild chat. You can click on the waypoints in chat and if you have the waypoint discovered you can use it.

    [spoiler]
    1. [&BOQAAAA=]spinach farm west
    2. [&BKgAAAA=] East. seasoned wood
    3. [&BLIAAAA=] East to hero point. seasoned wood
    4. [&BAECAAA=] area around wp. hardwood, iron, herbs
    5. [&BMcDAAA=] potato farm
    6. [&BGICAAA=] SE To WP. seasoned wood
    7. [&BFoCAAA=] N(Iron) S(Wood)
    8. [&BFwCAAA=] SE to POI. seasoned wood
    9. [&BEwCAAA=] N>NE>E to wp. hardwood, platinum
    10. [&BMwBAAA=] SW>S>S to WP. hardwood, platinum
    11. [&BMQBAAA=] S. hardwood, platinum
    12. [&BMgCAAA=] hardwood, platinum
    13. [&BNQCAAA=] NW
    14. [&BFgGAAA=] south. t5 mats, mature herbs
    15. [&BKYCAAA=] west. t5/t6 nodes
    16. [&BKwCAAA=] south. t5/t6 nodes
    17. [&BEIAAAA=] potato farm
    18. [&BF4AAAA=] north. 2 chests behind Skritt King
    19. [&BGMAAAA=] iron nodes
    [/spoiler]

    Maybe not the most exciting thing you can do but anyone can do it and it brings home the bacon. If you don’t like farming there are other ways to make gold. Make a thread on players helping players and ask about how to make gold in core Tyria.

    Edit. When my account was 4 months old I didn’t even remotely have 300 gold. lol.

    Be careful what you ask for
    ANet might give it to you.

    Forum Guides: Images. Text

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?

    • Charge more for the expansions?
    • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
    • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

    There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

    I admit I prefer looking at things from the consumer side, so Anet's bottom line wasn't my main concern. It's an interesting question though, if I was in their place I'd either make it free for all or make them paid DLC for all. And if I went with the latter, I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps. There is plenty of GW lore to make story that is detached from the core narrative and still make it compelling.

    I would not mind them taking this approach to story structure.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I remember how I felt when I discovered I couldn't just continue on into S2 without first buying gems, but at the end of the day, my account is just over a year old, and according to GW2 efficiency I've logged 2466 hours, and all for the cost of 2 expansions and LS S3 (I didn't end up buying S2). I'd say I got good value for my money.

    That said though, this is a problem that will grow worse as more chapters are released. I was here for S4, so I didn't have to pay for any of those episodes. A new player today would have to buy S2, S3 and 4 chapters of S4.

    I strongly suspect at some point they will roll the LS chapters into the expansions. That's exactly what WoW did. At one point, in order to play the current game, you had to buy like 4 expansions, which was a pretty hefty cost for entry. Eventually Blizzard designed it so if you bought the 'current' expansion, your account would immediately update to include all previous ones.

  • sorudo.9054sorudo.9054 Member ✭✭✭✭

    what they should've done is add 1 episode with the expansion so you have kind of a lure, if you want to have more you can buy the rest but you at least now know why all that happened.
    HoT is already explained when you ask for a recap of season 1 but PoF is a complete mystery when you start out and out of the blue you have to fight a god. (>! maybe only add the episode where balthazar actually reveals himself.)

    the truth is harsh, my opinions are too.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

  • trev.1045trev.1045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    How would you change things, without hurting ANet's bottom line?

    • Charge more for the expansions?
    • Charge veterans for the Living World too?
    • Charge a subscription and include the episode as part of that?

    There aren't all that many alternatives and each alienates someone.

    I agree its a tough issue to solve, i dont mind subs- but i am fully aware this would alienate tonnes of players and is a non-starter

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

    No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not as important but they are still important.

    If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

  • Blude.6812Blude.6812 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You want them, buy them. Simple.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

    No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not as important but they are still important.

    If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

    We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

  • AlexxxDelta.1806AlexxxDelta.1806 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

    No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not as important but they are still important.

    If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

    We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

    Then they'd have to deliver on that "expansion-like" LS season they mentioned as a goal a few months ago, story included. I'm curious to see the outcome myself to be honest.

  • Two interesting ideas which I'd like to call out:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:
    I'd make LS more like spin-off side stories so players without them wouldn't be left with narrative gaps.

    It's too late in their planning cycle for LS5 to work that way and perhaps even for LS6; it might be soon enough for LS7 (or the expac that some hope for).

    @sorudo.9054 said:
    add 1 episode with the expansion so you have kind of a lure,

    This is something ANet could do today.

    On the other hand, ANet would probably argue that (a) there are already plenty of lures to purchase LS episodes, (b) the are already connected in lore, and (c) they have to draw the line somewhere, so why not at the start of the season instead of after the first chapter.

    Worth thinking about, even though I expect ANet's already considered both and decided against.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Not so much as both are the continuation of the narrative which you were arguing about. Don’t move the goalpost.

    No goalpost moving here. LS story, at least so far, helps the narrative transition from fighting and beating Big Bad A to fighting and beating Big Bad B. It shows how you got from fighting Zhaitan alongside Destiny's Edge to fighting Mordremorth alongside Destiny's Edge 2.0. You can still proceed with the main story and go beat Big Bad B without knowing who the kitten are all those NPCs with you or how you got there. The transitions are not as important but they are still important.

    If you still don't see the difference between the two, then what can I say, we obviously have very different perspectives.

    We do have very different perspectives as you’re attempting to make the LS narrative as being different from an expansion narrative which they’re really not. Also, if Anet were not to do expansions anymore, what then?

    Then they'd have to deliver on that "expansion-like" LS season they mentioned as a goal a few months ago, story included. I'm curious to see the outcome myself to be honest.

    Well they already are pretty much doing that with an entire season.

  • @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @AlexxxDelta.1806 said:

    @trev.1045 said:
    Totally agree with the OP - i dont think people appreciate how off-putting this is to new players. You hit 80 really, really quickly so find yourself spending cash on top of both expansions very quickly.

    I was the same, i played the base game for a week- and decided to support the game by buying the expansions and within another week or two had to shell out for LWS2.
    Then a few weeks after that, had to shell out for LWS3...and for a new player 'gold farming' isnt really viable. It means within a month or so you have spent more than if you were playing wow.

    I was just as annoyed as the OP, and ive seen this complaint time after time on reddit etc...

    I know there is no sub, and they need to make money- but i believe nickle and diming people for content AFTER they buy both expansions costs them a fair few new players.

    This. I remember, back in the first days of HoT, I was playing the story with friends who had just finished the core story as new players. And I found myself having to constantly explain who is who because they didn't know any of those NPCs. In the end I had to direct them to youtube videos.

    A MMO is supposed make new players feel welcome in various ways, in order to "hook" them, especially if it's an aging one. Throwing a bunch of narrative paywalls on them, is not my idea of welcome.

    Since the expansions are paywalls to the narrative, they should be free? At what point is a new player not considered “new”? Is LS2 deep enough into the story that they wouldn’t be new by the time they reach it?

    That's quite the logical leap there. Expansions and LS are two very different pieces of content, at least the iterations we currently have. Quality, quantity, scope and method of delivery among their many differences. I see no point in comparing the two and to answer your (rhetorical?) question, no, expansions shouldn't be free.

    Also expansions aren't "bridges" to the main narrative, they are the main narrative. Maybe this will change now that we are not getting them anymore.

    Except that the argument that started this thread was that they're not? Until recently, they were tied directly to expansions, LS1, 2 and 3 for sure.

    Here's my perspective, as someone that started the game after both expansions were already live:

    I missed out on the freebies, and on LS1. They added a short narrative on the major details, and minor character bios for LS1, and, like anyone else that didn't hit the log in dates for LS 2 and 3, I had to buy them if I wanted to play them. I decided I did want to play them, and so I bought them. I didn't feel alienated, or left out because of that. I felt like maybe I should have looked here sooner, so I could have gotten them for free, but I don't feel ripped off because I didn't. I got LS 4 for free, as I was playing when it came out, and I hit all the log in dates to get it for free. You see, from my perspective, giving away content like this is something to be applauded, even if it's on a "you must be logged in during x window to get them free". It encourages those that know about it to do just that if they want the content free, and rewards players that are actively playing for actively playing. That's a good move, from where I'm sitting, and again, I had to buy LS 2 and 3. Even the topic starter isn't complaining about needing to buy them, just that they didn't know they existed. So, from my perspective, the simplest solution is to note that on the store pages for both expansions. Something simple like "LS 2 is not required to play, but will fill in some gaps in the story from the main game", with a similar message regarding LS 3 and it's expansion.

  • Cisaro.3169Cisaro.3169 Member ✭✭

    @mercury ranique.2170 said:
    I think most confusion is cause originally it is given for free to existing players as a thank you for the loyalty. I have played from launch and have an investment that is considerably higher then someone who starts now with the game
    The original game: 60 euro/USD
    Heart of Thorns: 50 euro/USD
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD
    Total: 140 euro/USD

    Currently, when buying all this you pay:
    The original game: free to play
    Heart of Thorns: 20 euro/USD (when bundled with Path of Fire) *
    Path of Fire: 30 euro/USD *
    Living world season 2: 19 euro/USD**
    Living world season 3: 12,50 euro/USD**
    Living world season 4: 600 gems = 7,50 euro/USD **+***
    Total: 89 euro/USD or 50 euro and a some farming in game.

    *Often these go for a 50% sale, so if you wait a bit, it is extra cheap
    **can be bought with gold in game, it can be farmed bit by bit
    *** there are 5 episodes so far. The last one is for free for new and existing players. The second is currently also for free. This price is aimed for that you missed last week give-away for episode one and IF they do not continue in the next two weeks to give away episode 3 and 4 for free as well

    My point is that you get things allready a lot more cheaper.
    However! and this is a big however. I think your point should not be that you should get it for free, but that you should be told about it more clearly. This is a puzzle with many MMO's. I once looked into buying WoW and it is also very unclear what you need to buy. I think marketing could and should solve this by selling bundled packages instead of stackable packages.

    • Again my complaint has nothing to do with price - please read my post carefully, you're arguing against a point I've not made.