Condi renegade problem/help

Two main problems I am having on my renegade in pve and pvp and wvw.

Firstly is mallyx - the utility skills are SO draining. If I use one ability such as the leap or confusion application one, I barely have enough go pull dps with my weapon, or keep the elite on. And the leap and drain are... SO mediocre, at best! Even the elite is average but at least it's not insanely draining like the utility skills.. can't even do anything!

2nd is how bad renegade stance is for damage. Seems to be only a group support legend for 5 players and above?? The daze one is the only amazing one (it absolutely shreds break bars in pve). There is 0 damage tired to it, and the utily skills seem so sub part compared to one's like sic em or blink or warrior stances etc..

Any suggestions or comments on what I may be experiencing? It feels like when I'm in mallyx I am energy starved; when I'm in Kala I am overflowing with energy but can use it for not much.

Also I am in full vipers for pve gear and slowly working on a full dire set for wvw.

Can somebody help me with also the problem that I seem to only have 2 good conditions (burning and torment) with bleed being "eh" even with 20% damage trait, and poison being few and far in between. Also said problem of not being able to apply top much confusion due to energy starvation....

I feel like other conditions specs are so much stronger, no?

In wvw I use a hybrid damage build rather than full condi, but I do use Mallyx a lot so can relate to the feeling that it's draining a lot of energy. For me it's usually caused by being impatient with wanting to burst someone quickly, so I spam Unyielding Anguish and/or Banish Enchantment too much. I've been to trying to train myself to only use those skills at key moments and mostly rely on weapon skills instead.

For Unyielding Anguish I try to only use it when chasing or kiting someone, occasionally I also use it to get in range for a legend or weapon swap that procs sigils or Song of the Mists. With Banish Enchantment I tend to use it when I think someone will start spamming their skills, or when they're about to finish blocking. I don't really use the elite skill unless I have like 75%+ energy. It's probably not that good for most builds, but if you're using something like Runes of Tormenting and/or Steadfast Rejuvenation it's pretty useful.

Yeah, the Kalla utility skills seem mostly useless in my opinion. I think most people would be better off using Shiro or Jallis even if they don't really offer any damage in a condi build. At least with Shiro you have Phase Traversal as a gap closer to proc weapon/legend swap or auto-attack with quickness.

The majority of Rev condi application does seem to be mostly torment and burning. A few other professions (scourge, mirage, etc.) are definitely stronger since they can naturally spam cover conditions along with damaging ones. I think it can be compensated a little with the swapping procs if you hit them at the right time, especially if Pulsating Pestilence is among those procs. Basically, we can use the condi application of those other professions against themselves to makeup the difference.

That's just how Mallyx and any other Rev utility which doesn't use upkeep and has low/no cooldown is. They need to be limited in some way and in this case they are limited by energy. I'm not sure how exactly you're playing your Rev, but you need to be careful about how and when you use your abilities; just because something is available, that doesn't mean it needs to be used. Not only do you need to consider what you can use at the moment, but you also need to plan on what you might need to use if your plan of attack fails or you'll be caught out of position with no way to save yourself.

Kalla is indeed a pile of hot garbage outside of pve group content.

One way to improve the damage of your kalla summons while alone is to first cast the elite, it will affect your later summons and thus, increase their damage due the leech effect.

However, casting the elite followed by icebreaker and cc-breaker (it will do damage now) consumes a heck of a lot of energy, so you need to use invocation's "get 75% energy when swapping legends" trait, and your whole 10 sec rotation will be limited to these three skills, and a couple of weapon skill 2. I generally save my f-skills and weapon skills 3-5 for the other legend.

@Arkaile.5604 said:That's just how Mallyx and any other Rev utility which doesn't use upkeep and has low/no cooldown is. They need to be limited in some way and in this case they are limited by energy. I'm not sure how exactly you're playing your Rev, but you need to be careful about how and when you use your abilities; just because something is available, that doesn't mean it needs to be used. Not only do you need to consider what you can use at the moment, but you also need to plan on what you might need to use if your plan of attack fails or you'll be caught out of position with no way to save yourself.

Kalla is indeed a pile of hot garbage outside of pve group content.

I understand not over using abilities, and sometimes I do fine, but then I get overwhelmed by letting the enemy free to counter me, or take too much damage and have not many useful heals -.-

I’m not going to comment on renegade for pvp/wvw, but for pve it’s really strong. Open world pve especially it’s as strong as power herald/better with the more mobs you get around you. The amount of AoE it has is insane and the amount of healing it can output through Soulcleave is amazing. Make sure to take full damage traits and might generation when solo, since you need the might to be able to do good damage with the spec. Try kiting more and dont’t be afraid to use shortbow in open world; it’s actually really strong once you know how to use it well. Same goes for Kalla utilities. Try to find the synergies and work with those. As someone else mentioned the Soulcleave + darkrazor/icerazor + shortbow autos combo on a group of enemies is a fantastic way to deal damage and heal, provided you have enough energy. Renegade is weird though; I initially didn’t like it for open world, but after having pretty much mastered in pve I can honestly say I wouldn’t go back to Power Herald or another condition class over it. It might take time before you like it/understand it or its playstyle might just not be for you.

Edit: if you’re having mobility issues when solo in pve consider traveler runes. You can just swap them out with your dps runes when you need those if you have legendary armor or just build/buy a second set of armor for them. Tbh I think the extra mobility in combat is incredibly helpful for open world Ren.

In PvE, you'll want to drain yourself pretty much as soon as possible (with some exceptions), in PvP you need to pace your energy usage. Don't spam all the utilities in order to try burst faster. You'll mainly want to push your stats up with Embrace the Darkness as you do your weapon burst, or land an Unyielding Anguish on targets you've set your sights on. If you start the combat without using utilities, you can generate some energy to have a bit more freedom too. It helps if you have your other Legend ready to be swapped to as well. Personally I run Shiro and Mallyx. Being able to swap to Shiro and evade backwards once or twice is gold after leaping into the enemies. If you want to use Kalla, use the Elite to buff yourself and your team. The Lifestealing adds up a decent amount of damage.

@LaFurion.3167 said:Two main problems I am having on my renegade in pve and pvp and wvw.

Firstly is mallyx - the utility skills are SO draining. If I use one ability such as the leap or confusion application one, I barely have enough go pull dps with my weapon, or keep the elite on. And the leap and drain are... SO mediocre, at best! Even the elite is average but at least it's not insanely draining like the utility skills.. can't even do anything!

2nd is how bad renegade stance is for damage. Seems to be only a group support legend for 5 players and above?? The daze one is the only amazing one (it absolutely shreds break bars in pve). There is 0 damage tired to it, and the utily skills seem so sub part compared to one's like sic em or blink or warrior stances etc..

Any suggestions or comments on what I may be experiencing? It feels like when I'm in mallyx I am energy starved; when I'm in Kala I am overflowing with energy but can use it for not much.

I can't bring much perspective to the PvE side or the SPvP side, but I am experienced with WvW condi renegade roaming in particular. I typically use a grieving set over vipers (though it doesn't really matter at least on the basics of how to play it).

For mallyx the whole legend is about hitting your leaps at short ranges aka don't expect someone to stand still and stand in it if you do long distance leaps. If you're at a distance from the enemy, its best to use axe 4 to close the gap or just sit and spam mace 3 off cd with a few banish enchantments. Since mallyx is so energy starved, you need to be sure of your commitment to each ability prior to use which is why I typically favor weapon skills over utilities when I first enter mallyx since it gives me flexibility to choose again after that. The leap itself is imo one of the best utility abilities in game at the moment if you land it on a few targets and are using tormenting runes for sustain. Like with all revenant specs, the only way you learn better energy management is looking at why the energy use you did felt wrong in certain situations and adapting. There isn't a set rotation/best option for revenant in WvW (at least roaming) cause you need to adapt to what the situation is, just because you're energy starved doesn't mean you've made a wrong decision. Another option is to take the GM trait in invocation that gives you additional energy when you swap out of a legend at low energy, so long as you can get this proc consistently, you shouldn't have energy issues.

Renegade stance isn't a great stance for WvW. The summons are easy to cleave down and as you noted they don't always do much. Now I would recommend using shiro (if you're staying vipers/glassier) or jalis (if you swap to dire) instead. Shiro solves your mobility/stunbreak issues as a renegade and gives you a way to dictate fights via your movement. Kalla doesn't offer this same flexibility since all your skills have cast times and are stationary with cds. Jalis allows you to care less about your lack of mobility and focus more on forcing the opponents to come into your range to pressure you enough to get you to downstate. This pairs well with tankier specs, but falls off if you're using glassier stats like grieving or vipers.

For damage in the kalla spec, you can combo together the elite with the dmg summon (not the daze one). The elite will give the lifesteal to each of the summons attacks giving you good sustain, but more importantly giving the relatively weak hits of the dmg summon a dramatic boost from the lifesteal proc (no icd btw).

As far as other condition specs being stronger, I strongly disagree. A well played condi rev has a good matchup against every other condition spec due to the mallyx GM trait with condition transfer on swap. If you hit that consistently, you don't only have a cleanse but the ability to put a large number of conditions on opponents instantly without any sort of castime/tell for the enemy to react to. This is a huge benefit of condi rev, in addition you have great access to resistance which counters most other condi specs (necro and other condi revs being the exceptions).

On top of this, condi rev is extremely strong against all specs, as long as you land your condi application abilities and know how to play around your strengths and the opponent weaknesses. Your main conditions are chill, burning, and torment, which seem lackluster but in reality its the best combination for fighting against other players. The only downside in the lack of cover conditions, but you apply torment in particular so fast it doesn't matter against non-supported players. The hardest specs to play against are the specs that force you (or your opponent if you're playing this spec) to play differently than you would in any other matchup. I would argue longbow ranger is an example of this with the long range forcing you to consider options for LoS/gap closing moreso than other matchups. This sort of logic also applies to condi rev, since the conditions of torment and chill take away the opponents ability to be mobile and forces them to make the choice of either kiting (and likely dying in the end) or engaging you head-on and hoping they have the clear to deal with 20+ torment stacks. A condi rev doesn't have to change how they play the game to fight against a warrior, but a warrior has to dramatically change their approach to beat a condi rev.

In short, I think the main issues here are the use of the kalla legend (garbage for condi rev outside of a supported group setting or outside of PvE) and a lack of experience with energy management. I strongly disagree with the assessment that condi rev is a bad spec for damage/conditions since it bring a unique combination of aspects that no other class can achieve and is given a distinct set of tools for handling other classes.

If you are having energy trouble, I would recommend playing with Charged Mists. It is pretty easy to use with any legend but Glint, and if you are playing Renegade you have your F-skills to spam if you are needing to drain energy. The extra 25 energy on swap can be extremely helpful and it makes Mallyx feel less energy-hungry and the overall playstyle much more fluid.

Thanks a lot for the help guys. I'll definitely be going Shiro over Kala in wvw now and testing it out. I do use tormenting runes, should have mentioned that.

The hint of using the leap at close range and defaulting to axe teleport at longer ranges makes a lot of sense; I will couple the confusion ability in malyx right after foe a huge 10 stack of confusion when I decide to burst ?.

Will let you know how it goes!

@LaFurion.3167 said:Thanks a lot for the help guys. I'll definitely be going Shiro over Kala in wvw now and testing it out. I do use tormenting runes, should have mentioned that.

The hint of using the leap at close range and defaulting to axe teleport at longer ranges makes a lot of sense; I will couple the confusion ability in malyx right after foe a huge 10 stack of confusion when I decide to burst ?.

Will let you know how it goes!

Condi Herald is a good option too. I run Doom & Geomancy sigils on my mace/axe and between that and Song of the Mists, you can get some really sweet legend-swap burst. Glint SotM is fantastic for condi and having the Glint heal is like playing with a guardian angel after playing Mallyx/Shiro. I would say it is an easier build to run if you are still getting comfortable with condi Rev.

I have never played renegade so forgive me for my noob question but are kalla summons cleavable? Do they take damage and go down?

Condi Revenant is overall a very weak starting point for anything vs other players outside small skirmishes in which other players from your team can carry your weakness and the clogging of multiple attacks can obscure your own skills, because condi weapons for this class lack in defense and mobility, which forces you to use the staff as back up tool. Since the staff does poor damage in power builds and almost 0 with condi specs swapping to this defensive weapon makes 10 second pauses in your fights in which you cant barely apply any kind of new damage. Pair it with the fact that most roaming builds usually had strong access to mobility and ranged pressure and that oftenly (thieves, mesmers, rangers and even some engineers) had good access to stealth and you find yourself at severe disadvantage. Yes, you can win vs some people, but oftenly due disparity in skill, not because condi Revenant is competitive (isn't). And doesn't help that some classes can literaly walk over seas of conditions largely ignoring them, while keeping strong capabilities as bruisers (firebrand, spellbreaker...).

So I went Shiro and got wrecked in wvw. Not sure if it was because I was tired, or what but just wrecked. I can see why Herald heal is Def a guardian angel compared to Shiro.

I must add that with the super hard nerf to attack speed on impossible odds, it feels not as fun to use. The additional attack does not seem to apply CONDITIONS?!?!?! AM I wrong?

@LaFurion.3167 said:So I went Shiro and got wrecked in wvw. Not sure if it was because I was tired, or what but just wrecked. I can see why Herald heal is Def a guardian angel compared to Shiro.

I must add that with the super hard nerf to attack speed on impossible odds, it feels not as fun to use. The additional attack does not seem to apply CONDITIONS?!?!?! AM I wrong?

It does apply conditions if you are traited for Corruption via the minor trait Rampant Vex... That said, in WvW, you probably don't want to be doing a lot of IO channeling as a condi player... IO is best used to pad power build bursts via Forceful Persistence or for the mobility of Superspeed. In a condi ren build (if you're brave enough to play that in WvW), you're mostly using Shiro for Riposting Shadows, to be able to escape/kite while shortbow cheesing... And you want to make sure you have the energy to do so--IO will prevent that.

Again, thats for WvW, in PvE you will be channeling IO through your shiro stance for the Rampant Vex procs and additional direct dmg.