All or Nothing: Requiem: Zafirah's Story {discussion} - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

All or Nothing: Requiem: Zafirah's Story {discussion}

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  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 Your constantly proclamations of a "contradiction" is not a contradiction because it's a change in personality. A person's opinions and personality changing over the course of 250 years is not a contradiction.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    I feel like this entire conversation, and the fact at one point we literally were debating whether Balthazar was some kind of construct that came into power rather then a being with some kind of personality only emphasizes how badly Arenanet dropped the ball when it came to Balthazar's characterization and the characterization of his followers,

    Hopefully we get some kind of answer in War Eternal about everything that happened in Path of Fire.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Sorry? That smelly old heap of mulch kittening KILLED ME AND STOLE MY DRAGON! I mean killed the Commander and abducted Aurene.
    But yeah, that was surely just a bit of male bonding, right...

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Sorry? That smelly old heap of mulch kittening KILLED ME AND STOLE MY DRAGON! I mean killed the Commander and abducted Aurene.
    But yeah, that was surely just a bit of male bonding, right...

    Why do you think you are right about everything you have done? Or what does a baby dragon knows lol?

  • anninke.7469anninke.7469 Member ✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Sorry? That smelly old heap of mulch kittening KILLED ME AND STOLE MY DRAGON! I mean killed the Commander and abducted Aurene.
    But yeah, that was surely just a bit of male bonding, right...

    Why do you think you are right about everything you have done? Or what does a baby dragon knows lol?

    I don't think that, not even remotely. But I certainly didn't like being used as a stress reliever for a frustrated god apparently going through some kind of godly teenage angst. And regardless of what a baby dragon knows, that flamy kittyhead stole her from me and was mean to her. Wrong enough, if you ask me.

    Do not fear difficulty. Hard ground makes sore feet.
    All things...grow. And the blossom bothers the weed.
    Act with wisdom and axe.

  • Loesh.4697Loesh.4697 Member ✭✭✭

    Molten hot take: Aurene was always a dumb plan and Balthazar had more of an end goal then we did, had he killed Kralk Tyria would of been obliterated but the Mists would of continued. Due to our stupidity we might inadvertently wind up undoing all of creation, taking out not only our world, but every world.

    Does that excuse what he did? No. But we're equally stupid at the very least, and our lack of foresight has put literally the entire universe at risk.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    To be fair, Kralkatorrik getting misthopping abilities from non-God Balthazar would have been pretty unexpected.

    Which is actually quite interesting and not something anyone has touched on ingame yet. Kralkatorrik took a property from Balthazar much like it’s taken properties from other Elder Dragons. Balthazar’s silhouette appearing alongside Zhaitan and Mordremoth orbs in the power up scene in All or Nothing is further proof that there are similarities with the way the two types of being - “Mistwalker” (for lack of a better term for a non-divine ex-God like Balthazar or Dhuum) and “dragon” (Any dragon not just Elder Dragons) acquire new magic/power.

    Beings such as Balthazar and presumably the Gods are capable of absorbing Elder Dragon magic with no adverse change to their personality or state of being (Balthazar was the same both in personality and appearance before and after absorbing energy from Primordus and Jormag) also which people in universe have again seemingly not referenced or clocked onto. It's to me a little bit frustrating that no characters in the story have so far said anything about this when it's blatantly obvious.

    Balthazar at least was under the impression that he could take all the magic of the Elder Dragons and all the magic of the rest of the Gods into himself.

    But I do agree the idea of replacing dragons with more dragons was questionable from the beginning, even if they're "good" dragons.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Beings such as Balthazar and presumably the Gods are capable of absorbing Elder Dragon magic with no adverse change to their personality or state of being (Balthazar was the same both in personality and appearance before and after absorbing energy from Primordus and Jormag) also which people in universe have again seemingly not referenced or clocked onto.

    On the flip side, however, while Balthazar did take in magic from Primordus and Jormag, those two Elder Dragons were still alive. When the Elder Dragons get new domains, its because the "owners" of those domains are dead.

    The question thus becomes: Had Balthazar killed an Elder Dragon in taking its power, would he have gained their domains?

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Balthazar at least was under the impression that he could take all the magic of the Elder Dragons and all the magic of the rest of the Gods into himself.

    Which I'm fairly doubtful is true. The implication from Kormir is that a god's power, while great, is ultimately marginally finite while the Elder Dragons' is seemingly not and that is why the Elder Dragons, though seemingly weaker than the gods off the bat (even with power boosts others, the most Primordus, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik (pre-Balthazar) did was still less than or on par to what Abaddon did during Nightfall while he was at ~3/8th power) are still stated to be "beyond the Six Gods".

    This may even tie in to why Grenth couldn't kill Dhuum - if he couldn't fully take all of Dhuum's power, due to being born a demigod, then killing Dhuum would have devastating after effects like when we killed Abaddon or, perhaps more accurately for amount of power left, killed Balthazar.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    All very true, hopefully ArenaNet will find a way to reconcile the mishmash of lore into something satisfactory when it comes to Gods, Dragons and their respective magic.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    I would honestly take everything that Kormir said with a grain of salt. From a meta perspective we already know that everything she said is either not true, dishonest or omitted. Otherwise there is no point in playing this game since she basically already told us we are going to lose.

    She told us that fighting Balthazar would have cataclysmic consequences. We punched him in the face with his sword, he died, nothing cataclysmic happened. She could've done the same thing with same results. Unless there is some bizzare unknown physical reaction that occurs when two gods are in close proximity to each other, her whole explanation is some Space-magic bs explanation.

    We know that we are going to deal with dragons, one way or another. We as players know this. Kill them, replace, trap them, put them to sleep, whatever. We already know that these are the thing we are gonna do to them. So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods. Again, unless there is some special reaction that occurs when gods and dragons are in proximity of each other. Not to mention how she completely ignored the idea of Glint's legacy, and that previous two dragons were killed by fairly moderate amount of violence. No cataclysmic, epic, DragonBall lever powers were needed. If Kormir was present for our previous encounter with Kralk, how would it be different for the worst? Would her presence trigger some magical reaction? Would her presence make Kralkkatorik give his 110% and go 300 IQ? There is nothing we can do (and will do) to the dragons that gods themselves cannot do

    Not to mention how human Godess of truth gives us two riddles and sends us on a detective adventure while the world is literally burning and human nation is getting rekt.
    The whole Sanctum arc is complete mess. From the start where we just casually decide to visit gods as if they were a local municipal council that you can visit whenever you want even though the big part of human story is how they are "silent". For Anet silent obviously means "no one bothered to enter a portal". The entire arc is a big contradiction in my opinion and I would not honestly take what gods say as "legit" information

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Beings such as Balthazar and presumably the Gods are capable of absorbing Elder Dragon magic with no adverse change to their personality or state of being (Balthazar was the same both in personality and appearance before and after absorbing energy from Primordus and Jormag) also which people in universe have again seemingly not referenced or clocked onto.

    On the flip side, however, while Balthazar did take in magic from Primordus and Jormag, those two Elder Dragons were still alive. When the Elder Dragons get new domains, its because the "owners" of those domains are dead.

    The question thus becomes: Had Balthazar killed an Elder Dragon in taking its power, would he have gained their domains?

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    Balthazar at least was under the impression that he could take all the magic of the Elder Dragons and all the magic of the rest of the Gods into himself.

    Which I'm fairly doubtful is true. The implication from Kormir is that a god's power, while great, is ultimately marginally finite while the Elder Dragons' is seemingly not and that is why the Elder Dragons, though seemingly weaker than the gods off the bat (even with power boosts others, the most Primordus, Mordremoth, and Kralkatorrik (pre-Balthazar) did was still less than or on par to what Abaddon did during Nightfall while he was at ~3/8th power) are still stated to be "beyond the Six Gods".

    This may even tie in to why Grenth couldn't kill Dhuum - if he couldn't fully take all of Dhuum's power, due to being born a demigod, then killing Dhuum would have devastating after effects like when we killed Abaddon or, perhaps more accurately for amount of power left, killed Balthazar.

    That is one idea, I also have another. We have learned that Dhuum loves to consume the souls of the dead to gain power. What if Grenth couldn't take all of Dhuum's power because his form of justice wouldn't allow him to consume Dhuum's I'll gained power. It's not a fully fleshed out thought. But something in me likes the idea that Grenth just couldn't stomach the idea of consuming magic gained by destroying the souls he felt called to Shepherd.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    She told us that fighting Balthazar would have cataclysmic consequences. We punched him in the face with his sword, he died, nothing cataclysmic happened. She could've done the same thing with same results. Unless there is some bizzare unknown physical reaction that occurs when two gods are in close proximity to each other, her whole explanation is some Space-magic bs explanation.

    I think you completely forgot about the maelstrom of magic that Balthazar's death unleashed. One that was heavily damaging to the Commander in the center of the storm until Aurene ate the magic in the center, allowing us to move and stop being injured and witness Kralaktorrik eat the rest of the maelstrom.

    Had Kralkatorrik and Aurene not been there, Vabbi would be no more, just like how the Crystal Sea became a desert and its verdant southern coast a sulfurous wasteland when Abaddon was defeated. With them there, the Elder Dragon became capable of entering the Mists at will and begin consuming all reality.

    That sounds like cataclysmic consequences to me.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    We know that we are going to deal with dragons, one way or another. We as players know this. Kill them, replace, trap them, put them to sleep, whatever. We already know that these are the thing we are gonna do to them. So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods.

    This is entirely false. Firstly, we know we cannot just outright kill them, because the world will die. Secondly, the gods are massive magical beacons. Their mere presence would no doubt draw the Elder Dragons to them, and force conflict. We've not seen gods fighting gods or Elder Dragons fighting Elder Dragons since the battle with Abaddon, which as noted, turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert, and a verdant coastline into The Desolation.

    The way Kormir puts it, when gods fight each other, the world is fractured; when mortals fight gods, the damage is more mitable. This was the point of her bringing up Abaddon's two battles. When the gods fought Abaddon, world was permanently changed, when mortals did it, it went back to normal.

    You also seem to be missing the fact that when Abaddon died, the magic released nearly destroyed Tyria despite being unleashed from the heart of the Realm of Torment - imagine if a god died in Tyria, and an Elder Dragon didn't consume the magic. Or if an Elder Dragon was around. The entire point of the gods not fighting is because if they kill 3 Elder Dragons, Tyria's dead. If one god dies, Tyria's dead.

    And can the gods put the Elder Dragons to sleep? Not while there's delicious magic in the form of the gods themselves there to wake them right back up.

    All these squares make a circle.
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  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 12, 2019

    So just to touch on the story again, because this is the second bit that fascinates me:

    "Balthazar praises those who act.
    Balthazar praises those who step forward, not back.
    Balthazar praises those who do not hesitate, both in life and on the battlefield.
    And most importantly Balthazar praises those who can take a life to save others."

    Isn't that pretty much describing the Commander? All those things Balthazar would praise the Commander did over the course of fighting him, right up until the end where he DID take a life to save others - Balthazar's own.

    That can go two ways, either it highlights Balthazar's fall more, because he didn't praise the Commander as far as I remember, or it's a way to pull him back from the brink story wise. Late night ramblings on my end, but I have hope.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Exactly my position. :)

    Ares in the Greek mythology as the god of war can never do anything wrong. It is simply the perception of the mortals who believe what the god of war is doing is wrong.

    For Balthazar, he is doing what a god of war should be doing, wage war. For Zafirah, destroying Kral is saving Tyria. Balthazar wants to destroy the Kral. The Pact and the commander want's to destroy Kral. I don't see what's wrong with what Balthazar is doing since he's doing the exact same thing as the commander is doing. The commander just want to stop Balthazar since the commander is suppose to be the one to save the world, not Balthazar.

    The whole PoF storyline boils down to this; The commander will do everything within his power to prevent Balthazar from stealing the lime light, even if the commander has to use a child dragon to achieve it.

    So far, the only one doing things wrong is the commander. It all started when the commander listened to Trahearn's nonsense about his Wild Hunt. Orr is still in the same state even after killing Zhaitan.

    In my opinion, Balthazar could've saved us all.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This is entirely false. Firstly, we know we cannot just outright kill them, because the world will die. Secondly, the gods are massive magical beacons. Their mere presence would no doubt draw the Elder Dragons to them, and force conflict. We've not seen gods fighting gods or Elder Dragons fighting Elder Dragons since the battle with Abaddon, which as noted, turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert, and a verdant coastline into The Desolation.

    That is the extent of the damage which is minuscule compare to the size of Tyria. This is why I am convinced that the gods could not destroy Tyria even if they try.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    That further support my argument that a contradiction do exists. The fact that she chose to ignore it validated the existence of the contradiction.

    It doesn't, because it outright shows that Balthazar had changed somehow. The power and presence of the Balthazar that stood in front of her is actually different to the power and presence of Balthazar that she prayed to and felt the presence of from the mists. That in and of itself shows that there isn't a contradiction, but that a change occured.

    She said she new it is him. However the him that is before her contradicts the him that she knows. It's not necessarily because Balthazar had changed, it could be that the Zaishen teaching was all a lie. She's basically saying that she'd been "catfished". Even knowing about the catfish scheme, she went out on a date with him anyway.

    If there is no honor on what Balthazar did, then it makes zero sense for Zafirah to remain faithful after we killed the fallen god. She should have started questioning her faith the first time she felt that there's something wrong.

    It's called blind zealotry, which people in the real world can fall victim to, where they ignore the contradiction between the actions of supposed religious leaders and what the religion actually stands for. It's a real human problem that we have in the world. It's simply been translated into a fictional character. So yes, it does make sense.

    I doubt that Zafirah is a fanatic with blind zealotry, otherwise why did she even bothered rationalizing.

    After confronting him, as Lazarus he ran away.
    Again he ran way from that volcano.

    I don't know how to explain any clearer to you how wrong you are.
    After being exposed as Lazarus, balthazar got what he wanted (omadd's machine) and left because there was nothing more he needed.

    He claim to be conflict. If he is what he claimed to be, he would have stayed and finished us off until the conflict is resolved. Then he could take the machine and absorbed Primo unchallenged. If he claimed to be conflict, he should not have ran away.

    and, at the volcano, omadd's machine was destroyed but he was empowered anyway. The two elder dragons retreated and there was no point hanging out in the volcano anymore. If he no longer had the means of taking primordus' power (because we destroyed the very thing that was giving him power), then there's no need to hang around that place anymore.

    In case you haven't noticed, we were fighting him. The conflict still exists yet he ran away.

    'siren's landing snip'

    Again, he ran away.

    If i had a gun stored in a room, went in, got the gun, and then left that room, would i be running away from the room?

    (the answer is no, spoiler alert)

    Balthazar went, got his weapon, and then left. That's literally not running away.

    If you claimed to be conflict, you wouldn't even bother to get a weapon.

    vlast snip

    Again, he ran away.

    he lost the resource he was looking for, what reason is there for him to stay if he aims to kill kralkatorrik.

    Again, he claimed to be conflict, yet he kept on running away from it.

    Kormir showed us that Balthazar claimed to be "conflict", yet up to this point he'd ran away many times avoiding conflict.

    he didn't run away, he has specific objectives that he was pursuing, what don't you understand about that?

    Oh, I understand that he claimed to be conflict and I also understand that in every opportunity when conflict is present, he ran away.

    To me, showing the clip when Balthazar claimed to be conflict is out of context and Kormir used that to manipulate us by adding her own narrative.

    When you confronted him, right there is conflict and the only way to resolve that conflict is to get rid of us, yet he chose to ran away instead of finishing us off. To me, that's a major contradiction to his claim "I am conflict".

    you're seriously hanging on to the wrong point here. But also, if you desperately want to pursue this angle, then I have another way of showing you how this has played into his character.

    If a being is said to be conflict itself, then what better way to have conflict than to have someone constantly hound you?

    Balthazar in PoF killed us without a thought, but we've fought him many times.

    What if he craved the fight?

    what if he ENJOYED fighting us, but not killing us just yet.

    what if he continuously chose to fight us to extend the conflict.

    your suggestion would have dramatically reduced the number of fights balthazar was in, the number of conflicts.

    and the BEST representation of that desire for conflict is when you fight him and you go down

    "Randomly repeated when you are downed:

    Balthazar: Get up! That was too easy.
    Balthazar: So quick to falter. Stand up!
    Balthazar: Too fast! Back on your feet!
    Balthazar: Feeling mortal yet?

    Randomly repeated after reviving you:

    Balthazar: Welcome back.
    Balthazar: Still with me? Good.
    Balthazar: Excellent. We're not finished yet."

    Balthazar is a god of conflict, what more could you thrive off of than someone who continuously chooses to fight you, someone you can so easily kill but decide not to.

    if you END a fight, you no longer have a conflict. and if you're so much more powerful than someone else, what better way to have more conflict than to not kill them, to make them chase you and continue the conflict for a much longer time.

    Meh, that doesn't work because he did killed us and end the fight, thus ending the conflict. If that is his intention, to prolong the conflict, he would have killed us. In addition, he would not want to kill Kral either if he wants to prolong the conflict. So nope, that doesn't work either.

    You're missing the point. Balthazar wants a Forged army so he needed souls. Instead of harvesting the souls from Amnoon, he bargained with Joko to get to the Underworld.

    >

    The question is why is that? He already setup a fort near Amnoon yet he left that city alone. That would have been an easy source of souls if he really do not care about Tyria anymore. Someone argued that he's already going around killing innocents for his army, yet Amnoon still stands? Major head scratcher there.

    >

    saying 'your missing the point' and then asking a question that I answered in your quote is, if i may, 'missing the point'.

    The entire POINT of recruiting more people is to not lose more forged, to get a strategic advantage and have less people that are going to fight you, have more people on your side to fight for you. that's the point. and for a god of war who, as you like to remind us, 'is conflict', doing that extends the battle, extends the fight, prolongs the conflict. If the war is ended, there's no more conflict to thrive off of.

    Your explanation about this being a strategic advantage is flawed. Killing them off will solve both issues; dead people meaning less people will fight you and you have souls to fuel your forged army. No need to recruit people.

    You mistake 'ending a fight' for 'conflict'. 'conflict' in and of itself is THE FIGHT. if the fight ends, there's no more conflict.

    Not what I'm saying. I said that if Balthazar is as he claimed, conflict, then why didn't he fight the people of Amnoon?

    That makes zero sense. Why try to recruit farmers and villagers if all Balthazar need is their soul for his Forged army? Those Zaishen could have easily wiped out the refugees to harvest their soul. Yet they waste their time trying to convince them.

    you my friend do not understand strategy.

    I don't even think you know what strategy is. Your "strategic advantage" is flawed. Recruiting the people who can rebel against you or run away is not a sound strategy when you can simply kill them and harvest their soul then forged an ever obedient army.

    Oh she is still faithful. When fighting against her during the From the Ashes, she wanted to continue Balthazar's work.

    She only changed her mind after the commander showed her mercy.

    YOU'RE IGNORING WHAT ZAFIRAH HERSELF SAID.

    you can't pick and choose what's true from the same article.

    All of them are true and that's the problem because they can't be all true, thus the contradiction.

    First of all, the "void" when eliminating the ED is just a belief. There were no evidence that this void "caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin". Either the Dev never implemented this "collapse" or it's not actually happening.

    This is so comically false and ignoring information that's actively been given to us. You DO realise that the map currency for seasons 3 and 4 have been 'unbound magic' and 'volatile magic' because the balance has shifted so far off course that it's manifesting in the world.

    Do you know what a break down of a system looks like? Have you played GW: Nightfall? That is a very good example of when the system broke down, when the collapse begins. You find claws everywhere and the Realm of Torment melding into Tyria. None of that is happening in GW2.

    Second, Aurene stabilizing the cycle is just based on hope. No concrete evidence that Aurene can actually stabilize the cycle.

    This is the only point you actually have

    EDIT to this point: actually, now that i've thought about it anymore, this is still a moot point because we have very clear evidence that she can by the simple fact that she has shown a huge capacity for absorbing magic, the very ability that makes elder dragons distinct from other, and shows that there's some retention of those traits by the fact that balthazar's sword was drawn to aurene. Also, Aurene is Kralkatorriks granddaughter so that type of thing is bound to be genetic. We have a lot more than just hope to go on, we have extremely relevant information relating to Aurene's nature as the granddaughter of an elder dragon and her display of those abilities too (up to and including branding caithe). it's not 100% solid proof, but it's a whole lot more than just 'hope'.

    Compare to Kral, Aurene is tiny. What if she absorbed too much magic that her body cannot handle that amount? What if she killed herself doing so? All these are based on the hope that Aurene would not die in the process. She wasn't even able to absorb Balthazar on her own, let alone try to absorb Kral. The only proof we have is that Balthazar's magic is too much for Aurene and absorbing Kral will surely kill her.

    Third, filling the vacancies is nothing but a theory. ED had horded magic before, yet the world didn't end. To me, nature and the ED has a way to check and balance eachother if left alone. It is when the people of Tyria started to meddle with nature that things get out of whack. Glint and the Forgotten had no business meddling with the cycle of extreme.

    I'm going to forgo the sarcasm and just hit the first point. As far as we know, an elder dragon has never died before, there is no historical comparison to be made, and so we can't have a 'world ending' scenario if we've always had six elder dragons to live in this cycle.

    also, the elder dragons killed people, that's a pretty huge reason to mess with the cycle in order to bring the cycle itself into balance.

    What if killing people is part of the balance? Ever thought of that? I'm going all Thanos here, but what if that is the point of the ED's existence? Humans, for example, didn't exist when the ED first awoken and now there's too many of them. What if the ED is the reset button in order to save Tyria? You see, too many questions that has not been considered. And Glint and the Forgotten knows nothing about this yet she commissioned Destiny's Edge to kill Kral. Now she says in her vision not to do that because it upset the balance. WTH? It was like, "oops my bad, we shouldn't go kill the dragons, Aurene quick, fix my mess."

    thirdly, to focus on the whole 'vacancies' thing you disbelieve, we have information about the all

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_All

    which pretty explicitly tells us that there's 6 spots for the six elder dragons, and that if the balance is thrown off, we're screwed.

    Yet Glint commissioned Destiny's Edge to kill Kral. Figure that one out.

    Lastly, Glint is seeking to balance something that is already balanced to begin with. Think about it, when Zhaitan and Mord died, it upset the balance which means it was perfectly balanced when they existed. The one who started with all these is Trahearn and his Wild Hunt. Even when Primo stirred when Abaddon died, Tyria was peaceful for 250 years.

    you JUST SAID

    First of all, the "void" when eliminating the ED is just a belief. There were no evidence that this void "caused the system to break down and the collapse to begin". Either the Dev never implemented this "collapse" or it's not actually happening.

    so way to contradict yourself.

    and the 'balance' would have wiped out the elder races of tyria, a cycle of mass destruction every 10000 years. that's not really balance if everything is destroyed.

    I didn't contradict myself, it was Glint who is contradicting herself. First she commissioned Destiny's Edge to kill Kral, now she says that it will leave a void if we kill them.

    So if it will leave a void, why did she sentenced Kral to death?

    When the other ED died, there's no such thing as "void". Thus the balance she's saying did not collapse. She is wrong about a lot of things.

    Besides, how does she knows that it will leave a void when she admitted that she cannot foresee pass as certain point in time because she knew she died. So to me, Glint and Kormir are full of it.

    So I'm sorry if I don't really believe any of that.

    i mean if you don't want to acknowledge everything the devs are actually telling us, then sure, you don't have to believe any of it. but just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true. Because it is true, because the devs are telling us this.

    Yeah what they are telling us is not what they are showing.

    That's the thing. What Balthazar say in his bravado is not what he's doing. If anyone knows how to deal with the dragons, it would be the gods since they've been around the longest. Balthazar knows what needs to be done. So what if Balthazar hoarded all the magic and left, I don't see that as a bad thing.

    first of all, again, you're ignoring absolutely everything the developers are telling us about the situation

    secondly, the gods wouldn't know how to deal with dragons because the gods have never interacted with the dragons before. the human gods migrated humans to tyria from another planet only 1200ish years ago. as in, the gods were not on tyria before that point, which means the gods would have never met the elder dragons.

    Wrong on both points. Kormir and the other gods know, that's why they refused to intervene.

    I'm only basing it on what she said; "We would destroy Kralkatorrik, and we would save Tyria from his vile Brand." That is no different than what the Pact and the commander was trying to accomplish. The commander said do also in From the Ashes; "I'm working on a way to kill Kralkatorrik–without disrupting his magic. Help me finish it. Please."

    those are not the same thing, as i've already shown you, because balthazar would have upset the balance to apocalyptic proportions, but aurene would have reset the balance. but you ignored that. you're ignoring a LOT of things for your own personal narrative, choosing not to believe explicit things shown to us and told to us by the game and the devs in the narrative they've created.

    Both sides want to kill Kral. The only difference is the method.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    She said she new it is him. However the him that is before her contradicts the him that she knows. It's not necessarily because Balthazar had changed, it could be that the Zaishen teaching was all a lie. She's basically saying that she'd been "catfished". Even knowing about the catfish scheme, she went out on a date with him anyway.

    first, that's not even remotely a good comparison. second, you're actively ignoring things zafirah has said in the story about her faith and what the devs have set up story wise.

    I doubt that Zafirah is a fanatic with blind zealotry, otherwise why did she even bothered rationalizing.

    rationalization IS a part of zealotry.

    He claim to be conflict-

    i'm just going to skip from here straight to the conflict rationalization response, because clearly you're refusing to think about anything else.

    If you claimed to be conflict, you wouldn't even bother to get a weapon.

    i'll make an exception for this response because it's actually mind blowing the amount of mental gymnastics you have to make to say that a god of war would not utilize a weapon of war because he is war.....

    i can't even fathom the argument you're making, it doesn't make sense.

    Meh, that doesn't work because he did killed us and end the fight, thus ending the conflict. If that is his intention, to prolong the conflict, he would have killed us. In addition, he would not want to kill Kral either if he wants to prolong the conflict. So nope, that doesn't work either.

    i can't believe how much you're actually sidestepping the argument and also outright contradicting yourself here, on top of ignoring balthazar's motivations for his entire trip to tyria.

    to put it simply, balthazar prolonged the conflict with the commander several times, until ending the conflict with the commander to continue his conflict with kralkatorrik. the only reason he's in conflict with kralkatorrik is to gain kralkatorrik's power and get into a new conflict with the other human gods, so it makes sense to kill kralkatorrik in order to fight on even ground with the other gods that he's going to enter a conflict with.

    so yes, the argument actually does work when you think about it.

    Your explanation about this being a strategic advantage is flawed. Killing them off will solve both issues; dead people meaning less people will fight you and you have souls to fuel your forged army. No need to recruit people.

    how is 'not losing troops' a strategic flaw?

    like, please, explain that to me.

    Not what I'm saying.

    How else am i supposed to interpret the fact that you think balthazar should have stayed and fought us each time we fought him? each time you mention the fact that he 'ran away from conflict' is a fight that he could have killed us swiftly in. so if he's supposed to stay and fight, what is he supposed to accomplish that's not killing us?

    I said that if Balthazar is as he claimed, conflict, then why didn't he fight the people of Amnoon?

    you are dearly missing the point.

    I don't even think you know what strategy is. Your "strategic advantage" is flawed. Recruiting the people who can rebel against you or run away is not a sound strategy when you can simply kill them and harvest their soul then forged an ever obedient army.

    That is so laughably terrible a strategy. because it's never as simple as 'just kill them'. because if you do 'just kill them', they will fight back

    you will lose troops, you will lose forged. that means you have a smaller army. if they are able to create a big enough resistance to fight against you, then you're going to lose even more troops and end up not getting all the souls you want.

    and also, there were HUGE battles between the forged and the awakened, so clearly balthazar was busy fighting a war on one front, getting easy recruits, unarmed and willing, into an area you want and then sacrificing them to turn them into forged is a much sounder strategy than an attempt at killing them all.

    and the thing is, we've actually seen that recruitment strategy work before IN THE FIRST GUILD WARS.

    the white mantle with their chosen being sacrificed to the bloodstone. Like, we've actually seen the strategy of how recruitment works and can work for a long time. a populace that is willing to go with you, unarmed, to a place where you can control where they go, and then kill them for your benefit with minimal effort (whether that means sending souls to the bloodstone or turning those souls into forged). THAT is the strategy of recruitment, and it can work for years.

    The White Mantle were founded during the Third Guild War, no later than in 1067 AE (though exact year is unknown),

    In 1072 AE, they began to fight the undead Orrian forces when they threatened Kryta.

    that is at the very least 5 years of the recruitment tactic working. so yeah, strategically sound.

    All of them are true and that's the problem because they can't be all true, thus the contradiction.

    if you think they all can't be true then you did not understand what was written, plain and simple.

    Do you know what a break down of a system looks like? Have you played GW: Nightfall? That is a very good example of when the system broke down, when the collapse begins. You find claws everywhere and the Realm of Torment melding into Tyria. None of that is happening in GW2.

    the claws and realm of torment is specific to the abaddon situation. there's absolutely zero evidence the same would hold true for a tyrian collapse due to elder dragons dying.

    Compare to Kral, Aurene is tiny. What if she absorbed too much magic that her body cannot handle that amount? What if she killed herself doing so? All these are based on the hope that Aurene would not die in the process. She wasn't even able to absorb Balthazar on her own, let alone try to absorb Kral. The only proof we have is that Balthazar's magic is too much for Aurene and absorbing Kral will surely kill her.

    aurene grew into an adolescent form practically overnight from absorbing magic. i feel like that's pretty clear that she can grow into a massive size with enough magic.

    and also, she couldn't absorb all of balthazar's magic because kralkatorrik snacked on the rest of the magic.

    i feel like you're ignoring very obvious things for the sake of your own narrative. which is failing. to basic observable facts.

    What if killing people is part of the balance? Ever thought of that? I'm going all Thanos here, but what if that is the point of the ED's existence? Humans, for example, didn't exist when the ED first awoken and now there's too many of them. What if the ED is the reset button in order to save Tyria? You see, too many questions that has not been considered. And Glint and the Forgotten knows nothing about this yet she commissioned Destiny's Edge to kill Kral. Now she says in her vision not to do that because it upset the balance. WTH? It was like, "oops my bad, we shouldn't go kill the dragons, Aurene quick, fix my mess."

    i'm going to ignore the parts of your arguments where you've ignored things that have been talked about in this thread and instead focus on the glint thing, since I don't think that's been covered in this specific thread (though it has been covered in other threads).

    the idea, as i've seen it discussed by konig and others, is that Glint, Vlast and Aurene were supposed to each take the place of an elder dragon.

    when Glint went with destiny's edge to fight kralkatorrik, the plan was for glint to take kralkatorrik's place as an elder dragon.

    then, Vlast and aurene in turn, would have their chance to replace elder dragons in the future.

    the only flaw with the plan was that Glint died. She isn't asking aurene to clean up her mess, she's asking aurene to take part in the plan as it's been all along. kill an elder dragon and replace it with a friendly dragon.

    so, now you're informed about that, you hopefully understand the whole glint, vlast and aurene situation, and how things have not gone to plan.

    I didn't contradict myself

    you really, truly, did contradict yourself.

    i mean if you don't want to acknowledge everything the devs are actually telling us, then sure, you don't have to believe any of it. but just because you don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true. Because it is true, because the devs are telling us this.

    Yeah what they are telling us is not what they are showing.

    i should have been clearer

    the devs have been telling us by showing us in game. and also confirming things on the forums too.

    Wrong on both points. Kormir and the other gods know, that's why they refused to intervene.

    you really sound like you're talking about a conspiracy theory. what evidence do you have that the gods know something and refuse to intervene?

    Both sides want to kill Kral. The only difference is the method.

    That's so false. that's SO false. i've explained it over and over to you again but you're refusing to listen.

    so i'm done.

    i've presented you all the factual evidence you could ever ask for, and you ignore it because it doesn't suit your personal narrative. it's really as simple as "you're wrong about this". so I'm just going to stop discussing this with you.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭

    To be fair, the Gods likely DO know something we don’t. Glint theorises this.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    To be fair, the Gods likely DO know something we don’t. Glint theorises this.

    Thanks for reminding me of that line. However when looking it up it seems the gods didn't inherently know about the dragons:

    Glint: The Forgotten told me much, but not everything... What did they tell the Six? What do the gods know that I do not?

    so the human gods know what the forgotten told them. information that seems like it's beyond the cycle of destruction and the six points that balance the worlds magic since glint talks about her children following her legacy which is seemingly replacing the dragons. so yeah, that's maybe a point in the favour of 'the gods have a reason for bouncing' but we know at least one other reason because of the garden of the gods book

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Garden_of_the_Gods

    When the dragons rose, the gods realized a terrible truth: any effort to save the garden would instead destroy it...or them. If humanity was to endure under their guidance, it could not be here.
    Reluctantly, the gods withdrew. They had to find new soil to tend, that their faithful might someday see the full, resplendent bloom of this most glorious garden. Praise Kormir!

    it's not that farfetched an idea, considering humans migrated to tyria in the first place. and it also aligns with everything that we DO know from in game sources:

    if the dragons die, the balance of magic becomes unstable and the world dies
    a fight between powerful beings results in widespread damage and the possible destruction of the world
    if a powerful magic infused being dies without it's magic being contained, the world dies

    which also aligns with everything that konig has said too, if the gods walk on tyria, they would become lighthouses that attract the elder dragons to them and, whether they wanted it or not, an 'all life on tyria will end' conflict would ensue.

    we don't really have much else information wise to work with. if there is stuff that we don't know yet, we're bound to know about it in the future. but that doesn't invalidate the information we have now. not that you specifically have said that, but sir vincint seems to think that because of this one tidbit that everything we do know is wrong.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 13, 2019

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @anninke.7469 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Sorry? That smelly old heap of mulch kittening KILLED ME AND STOLE MY DRAGON! I mean killed the Commander and abducted Aurene.
    But yeah, that was surely just a bit of male bonding, right...

    Why do you think you are right about everything you have done? Or what does a baby dragon knows lol?

    I don't think that, not even remotely. But I certainly didn't like being used as a stress reliever for a frustrated god apparently going through some kind of godly teenage angst. And regardless of what a baby dragon knows, that flamy kittyhead stole her from me and was mean to her. Wrong enough, if you ask me.

    I mean you are right from a 10 year old point of view. Balthazar is a God of War so he naturally should be a ruthless brute. He was right that he needed to kill Elder Dragons, since he can absorb their power and keep the magical balance. But no we decided to kill that god and feed Kralkatorik with his magic. And now we are trying to kill Kralkatorik. Joko was right about us, just listen to his last speech. Our character and other 'good' guys seem pretty hypocritial, first kill dragons, then don't, then kill dragons again??

    Of course Balthazar did things that were wrong but things you are listing weren't wrong. But he was probably right about Elder Dragons or Joko is. Either way commander can never be right since we don't know what we are doing.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Even if Balthazar killed Kralkatorrik and took his domain by absorbing his power, an unconfirmable theory at this point, Balthazar had no intention of staying in Tyria and filling the role of an Elder Dragon in the world.

    The ED would be a means to an end, attaining god-like power, perhaps becoming stronger than the other gods and proceeding to go find and kill them. Tyria could burn for all he cared at that point.

    His little quip about how we're the great dragon slayer having become their defenders was a load of kitten given his own end game. You can really tell how desperate and off the deep end he's fallen at that point.

    Balthazar did everything wrong.

    Even if you can sympathize with the circumstances of his initial fall (being I actually respected him for wanting to fight and stick around), the end result of him becoming obsessed with revenge against the other gods to the point of damning the entire world just doesn't follow.

    Assume he kills them all and becomes the one true god... of what? Tyria is dead. Humanity is dead. Everyone and everything is dead. The dead god of war didn't think this through.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Even if Balthazar killed Kralkatorrik and took his domain by absorbing his power, an unconfirmable theory at this point, Balthazar had no intention of staying in Tyria and filling the role of an Elder Dragon in the world.

    The ED would be a means to an end, attaining god-like power, perhaps becoming stronger than the other gods and proceeding to go find and kill them. Tyria could burn for all he cared at that point.

    His little quip about how we're the great dragon slayer having become their defenders was a load of kitten given his own end game. You can really tell how desperate and off the deep end he's fallen at that point.

    Balthazar did everything wrong.

    Even if you can sympathize with the circumstances of his initial fall (being I actually respected him for wanting to fight and stick around), the end result of him becoming obsessed with revenge against the other gods to the point of damning the entire world just doesn't follow.

    Assume he kills them all and becomes the one true god... of what? Tyria is dead. Humanity is dead. Everyone and everything is dead. The dead god of war didn't think this through.

    So Balthazar absorbing ED magic is unconfirmable theory, while him killing them all resulting in a destruction of Tyria is confirmable fact?
    Taimis' theory claims that other ED absorbed magic of ED that we killed, Kralkatorrik seems to have their magic. There are pretty good reasons to believe Balthazar would be able to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik.
    Just because Gods and ED fought once and made a desert in the process doesn't means God of war can't kill them without massive destruction. After all Balthazar was master at doing war not other Gods that claimed Tyria would be destroyed. Just imagine instead of us coming there killing Balthazar, him completing his plan. And narritive we present is clearly saying Balthazar was about to kill Kralkatorrik. So if he does kill him, he and maybe Aurene absorb Kralkatorriks' power there is no other extra destruction that Gods were warning about. And how would us killing Kralkatorrik in last episode we had be any better, just no God that could likely absorb magic from Kralkatorrik.

  • CETheLucid.3964CETheLucid.3964 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:

    @CETheLucid.3964 said:

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Balthazar did nothing wrong.

    Even if Balthazar killed Kralkatorrik and took his domain by absorbing his power, an unconfirmable theory at this point, Balthazar had no intention of staying in Tyria and filling the role of an Elder Dragon in the world.

    The ED would be a means to an end, attaining god-like power, perhaps becoming stronger than the other gods and proceeding to go find and kill them. Tyria could burn for all he cared at that point.

    His little quip about how we're the great dragon slayer having become their defenders was a load of kitten given his own end game. You can really tell how desperate and off the deep end he's fallen at that point.

    Balthazar did everything wrong.

    Even if you can sympathize with the circumstances of his initial fall (being I actually respected him for wanting to fight and stick around), the end result of him becoming obsessed with revenge against the other gods to the point of damning the entire world just doesn't follow.

    Assume he kills them all and becomes the one true god... of what? Tyria is dead. Humanity is dead. Everyone and everything is dead. The dead god of war didn't think this through.

    So Balthazar absorbing ED magic is unconfirmable theory

    Yes, to the extent of being able to replace them in the world. Were this possible you'd have to ask why the gods didnt just kill the EDs and take their place in The All like many people suspected they were a part of to begin with.

    while him killing them all resulting in a destruction of Tyria is confirmable fact?

    Yes. It's safe to conclude killing the EDs without properly replacing them will destroy Tyria. We've already seen adverse effects to the world based on the ones we've already killed.

    Taimis' theory claims that other ED absorbed magic of ED that we killed, Kralkatorrik seems to have their magic.

    This much is correct, yes. We're still missing two aspects of power in Tyria that holds the world together. It continues to function the same way a damaged building with multiple supports continues. The other supports (EDs) have taken on the load. The structure is weakened. Compromised.

    Take out too many more and the entire building will collapse.

    There are pretty good reasons to believe Balthazar would be able to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik.

    Yes, he can absorb and use ED magic to empower himself. What's left unconfirmed is if he were to get all of an EDs magic is if he could act as an ED replacement.

    If the gods could do this it follows none of this dragon killing buissness would be an issue, all the gods could simply have come back and replaced the EDs in the world and Tyria is saved.

    The fact that they've decided to leave the world and search for a new one suggests this isn't an option.

    Just because Gods and ED fought once and made a desert

    Never happened. You're thinking of the gods VS Abaddon.

    God of war can't kill them without massive destruction.

    Kralkatorrik (and Aurene) inadverdently saved Elona (or the greater part of it) by absorbing Balthazar's magical death explosion. Left unchecked it would have been an Abaddon fall tier event.

    Just imagine instead of us coming there killing Balthazar, him completing his plan.

    Balthazar: Woohoo! Time to go murder the other gods! Later, nerds.
    Everyone dies.
    The end.

    And how would us killing Kralkatorrik in last episode we had be any better, just no God that could likely absorb magic from Kralkatorrik.

    It wouldn't be. We're still trying to figure that one out and our greatest hope (Aurene) just got killed. We're having a really bad time.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    So Balthazar absorbing ED magic is unconfirmable theory, while him killing them all resulting in a destruction of Tyria is confirmable fact?
    Taimis' theory claims that other ED absorbed magic of ED that we killed, Kralkatorrik seems to have their magic. There are pretty good reasons to believe Balthazar would be able to absorb the magic of Kralkatorrik.

    It's one thing to be able to absorb the magic. It's another thing entirely to take their place in The All, which is the important part. Yes, overflow of magic is an issue, but as Taimi laments over during Elder Druid Protection step in Season 3 Episode 5, that issue is not the real main concern, rather it is The All's balance (or as Taimi sometimes puts it, "the Elder Dragon balance"), which is what Glint's Legacy is all about ultimately.

    It has been said by multiple sources now that the death of one more Elder Dragon will result in Tyria's destruction. This was the entire reason why the Commander antagonized Balthazar (alongside the whole "we know you're not the evil mursaat Lazarus, so instead of talking it out we'll forcibly unmask you!" stupidity). Even if Balthazar could replace one Elder Dragon in The All, he cannot replace two as no one thing can. And even if he can replace on Elder Dragon in The All, Balthazar had zero intention of remaining on Tyria, thus would imbalance The All once he fulfilled his Tyrian-based goals and left to attack the Six Gods.

    @McPero.3287 said:
    Just because Gods and ED fought once and made a desert in the process doesn't means God of war can't kill them without massive destruction. After all Balthazar was master at doing war not other Gods that claimed Tyria would be destroyed. Just imagine instead of us coming there killing Balthazar, him completing his plan. And narritive we present is clearly saying Balthazar was about to kill Kralkatorrik. So if he does kill him, he and maybe Aurene absorb Kralkatorriks' power there is no other extra destruction that Gods were warning about. And how would us killing Kralkatorrik in last episode we had be any better, just no God that could likely absorb magic from Kralkatorrik.

    The gods and Elder Dragons never fought. It was infighting between gods - without the death of one - that made the Crystal Sea into a desert and the southern coastline into the Desolation. Kormir brought that up during Facing the Truth, alongside bringing up how when mortals fought Abaddon there was no permanent effects on the landscape, to show that beings on par to gods fighting each other in of itself will cause national-level devastation.

    Balthazar wouldn't have caused massive destruction in killing Kralkatorrik or Primordus/Jormag... if and only if no other Elder Dragon had died before it. At this point, ANYONE killing any other Elder Dragon will be causing world destruction - unless there is a replacement. That's the entire point behind the title "All or Nothing", we had one hope, one chance, to kill Kralkatorrik without destruction to Tyria and that hope was Aurene (because Vlast was killed by Balthazar). Aurene was supposed to absorb that magic, become an Elder Dragon, and keep The All from becoming too destabilized. It was a silly course of action imo as first we should be establishing a proper replacement for Zhaitan and Mordremoth is possible. Presumably, we'll find out that there is a new hope in the form of the Skywalkerscale or something in the new map.

    If Balthazar had been freed before Zhaitan's defeat, then he could have joined in killing Zhaitan and there would be no issue. But this is because Balthazar is no longer a god by the time of GW2. He had been stripped of his power and his divinity, so he is little better than a powerful mortal until the events of Season 3.

    The only way Path of Fire could have ended without the destruction of Tyria while killing Kralkatorrik, would be if and only if Balthazar allowed Aurene (or Vlast) to absorb the lion's share of Kralkatorrik's magic and become an Elder Dragon proper. But the thing is, he was after that lion's share of magic and power, so he would not - could not - allow that.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • McPero.3287McPero.3287 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2019

    No point, it is just inconsistent writing by Anet. Nothing proves that Tyria can't survive without ED magic in it. Nothing says Balthazar would kill other Gods. Nothing says Balthazar can't replaced ED. Those are all just speculations on which Anet will inconsistently decide as the story goes on. And only real magic is magic that has no rules, so anything should be possible, even for a skritt to absorb entire magic of Kralkatorrik. If magic has physics like rules than it is not magic and is just different physics.
    Fact is Anet made ED as the villain dragons that like in traditional fantasy need to be killed. But along the way they have just decided to change the whole agenda so now we are in a position where they have to come up with stupid excuses to explain things. Watch us kill Kralkatorrik in next episode and everything will be fine or trap him outside of Tyria and we can survive without his 'lifeforce'.

  • @ThatOddOne.4387 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Biography#Race_questions

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Dwayna

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Lyssa

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Prayer_to_Kormir

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Melandru

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hounds_of_Balthazar

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper_of_Grenth

    When norn racials have a tangible benefit and effect related to what they are called, I don't think you can really get away with calling the above "Just magic" when a norn's beast form is specifically influenced by which Spirit of the Wild they prefer. Every other race's racials are specifically related to an aspect of their race so why would the human ones not be?

    This is particularly relevant for the last three, which are all ultimates that all humans regardless of profession can access.

    the effects of the spirit of the wild can be explained with magic alone tbh. The norn feels 'bear-ish' so his subconcious magic use makes him a bear.
    The same for humans. We have not seen that ALL humans have access to this stuff. In fact we have only seen it from the PC. The PC is a vivid magic abuser. Even as a warrior. So all this 'god given gifts' can be explained as nothing but subconcious magic use. Other humans don't use magic - and we don't see them ever call the hounds of balthazar.

  • ThatOddOne.4387ThatOddOne.4387 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 14, 2019

    Only it isn’t “just magic” for norn, so your argument falls flat. The abilities unique to humans that no other race can use are a result of the blessings of the Six Gods, not just magic emulating it, that’s quite literally what the descriptions say. Case closed.

    A human commander also talks about enjoying the blessings of Balthazar for as long as they can remember during Path of Fire when trying to reason with him if that option was picked at character creation. Someone wouldn’t say that if the benefits were not tangible and attributable to the God in question.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @McPero.3287 said:
    No point, it is just inconsistent writing by Anet. Nothing proves that Tyria can't survive without ED magic in it. Nothing says Balthazar would kill other Gods. Nothing says Balthazar can't replaced ED.

    Nothing, except practically everyone and everything involved in the plots.

    @McPero.3287 said:
    And only real magic is magic that has no rules, so anything should be possible, even for a skritt to absorb entire magic of Kralkatorrik. If magic has physics like rules than it is not magic and is just different physics.

    Then I guess we're not dealing with magic, just different physics which happens to be called "magic" in this universe. Because ArenaNet has applied rules, and kept to those rules.

    I mean, if you think about it, that's all magic really is. A different way to manipulate physics without physical matter. No matter the fantasy setting.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Zafirah's feelings toward Balthazar are interesting, but frankly I don't think Balthazar himself is interesting or relevant as a character anymore. His motivations are either hidden (he explicitly says that Tyria is trivial compared to what he can do with this magic - we have no idea if he wants to face the other gods or something else, or even if it can somewhat be "justified" from his point of view), or flat out I-only-lust-for-power and I don't know which one I hate the most. It's interesting that they introduced her as a character to keep his "gw1 side" still lingering around, but I hope they give up on further explaining anything about the gods if they're gonna keep doing it as well as they have done so far (i.e not at all).

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    which also aligns with everything that konig has said too, if the gods walk on tyria, they would become lighthouses that attract the elder dragons to them and, whether they wanted it or not, an 'all life on tyria will end' conflict would ensue.

    I digress in our other discussion since I've said what I needed to say there. Instead, I will respond to this one.

    The gods being a beacon is far-fetched due to the fact that they have battled in Tyria before against Abaddon. They've also showed up in Arah, Orr. Yet, the EDs didn't wake due to their presence in Tyria. Can you imagine how much magic was released while fighting Abaddon?

    The Dragons continued to slumber. So I don't buy that one bit.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286
    Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

    That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    She told us that fighting Balthazar would have cataclysmic consequences. We punched him in the face with his sword, he died, nothing cataclysmic happened. She could've done the same thing with same results. Unless there is some bizzare unknown physical reaction that occurs when two gods are in close proximity to each other, her whole explanation is some Space-magic bs explanation.

    I think you completely forgot about the maelstrom of magic that Balthazar's death unleashed. One that was heavily damaging to the Commander in the center of the storm until Aurene ate the magic in the center, allowing us to move and stop being injured and witness Kralaktorrik eat the rest of the maelstrom.

    Had Kralkatorrik and Aurene not been there, Vabbi would be no more, just like how the Crystal Sea became a desert and its verdant southern coast a sulfurous wasteland when Abaddon was defeated. With them there, the Elder Dragon became capable of entering the Mists at will and begin consuming all reality.

    And both of those would be there if Kormir was the one who stabbed Balthazar with Sohotin, not us. Simply proclaiming some magical effect without prooving it doesnt make it so. Again, how would things be different if Kormir was there? They wouldn't be, it would just be easier.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    We know that we are going to deal with dragons, one way or another. We as players know this. Kill them, replace, trap them, put them to sleep, whatever. We already know that these are the thing we are gonna do to them. So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods.

    This is entirely false. Firstly, we know we cannot just outright kill them, because the world will die. Secondly, the gods are massive magical beacons. Their mere presence would no doubt draw the Elder Dragons to them, and force conflict. We've not seen gods fighting gods or Elder Dragons fighting Elder Dragons since the battle with Abaddon, which as noted, turned the Crystal Sea into the Crystal Desert, and a verdant coastline into The Desolation.

    How is this "entirely false"? This is literally the main story. And unless Anet plans to tell this story into infinity this story will somehow end. We absolutely will somehow deal with dragons, one way or another. Also, killing them was just one of the options. And saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third. We absolutely will deal with dragons. That is literally the entire story of the game. Which means that Kormir's defeatist attitude is a priori wrong from a meta-narrative standpoint.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The way Kormir puts it, when gods fight each other, the world is fractured; when mortals fight gods, the damage is more mitable. This was the point of her bringing up Abaddon's two battles. When the gods fought Abaddon, world was permanently changed, when mortals did it, it went back to normal.

    That makes no sense. It would make sense if killing balthazar took some epic effort. So then you could reason it with extensive damages, but we literally stabbed him with a magical sword. There was no epic power leveles fight needed. Thats why i'm saying that narrative pushed by Kormir is at odds with what game otherwise presents.
    And that is the core issue. Kormir keeps saying that "power levels" would be off the charts if gods entered the field. But we ourselves see that that is not ever necessary. No epic levels of power are needed to deal with elder dragons, no epic levels of power were needed to deal with Balthazar. Her proclamations are at odds with how we as player character are dealing with those issues she is running away from.

    And also, it took Kormir absorbing Abaddons power to mitigate the results of mortals fighting god

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    You also seem to be missing the fact that when Abaddon died, the magic released nearly destroyed Tyria despite being unleashed from the heart of the Realm of Torment - imagine if a god died in Tyria, and an Elder Dragon didn't consume the magic. Or if an Elder Dragon was around. The entire point of the gods not fighting is because if they kill 3 Elder Dragons, Tyria's dead. If one god dies, Tyria's dead.

    Who ever said anything about gods dying on Tyria? The issue is that games portrays fighting elder dragons as way to easy of a feat to be afraid of gods dying or whatnot. But I do admit it is a legitimate risk to be worried about. Also, Gods could have fought within our "Aurene" plan. Its not "gods kill dragons- world end". Gods could've participated in the Glint's legacy more actively.

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    And can the gods put the Elder Dragons to sleep? Not while there's delicious magic in the form of the gods themselves there to wake them right back up.

    Or they can put them back to sleep and go back to the mists?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    And both of those would be there if Kormir was the one who stabbed Balthazar with Sohotin, not us. Simply proclaiming some magical effect without prooving it doesnt make it so. Again, how would things be different if Kormir was there? They wouldn't be, it would just be easier.

    If Kormir waited for the exact same situation to occur, used Sohothin, and made sure Kralkatorrik and Aurene were there to absorb Balthazar's unleashed magic, then sure, that would happen. But 1) Kormir would have reached him sooner, resulting in no dragon to be there, or 2) Kralkatorrik would also be after Kormir, who's a kitten lighthouse of magical energy due to being a god, thus either resulting in a) Kralkatorrik having the power of a full-fledged god on top of the fallen god's partially restored magic, b) the world destruction because Kormir would win and Aurene wasn't ready (she couldn't handle the small amount she took from Balthazar), or c) the world's destruction because Kralkatorrik couldn't absorb truly divine magic (something suggested a few times over).

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    How is this "entirely false"? This is literally the main story. And unless Anet plans to tell this story into infinity this story will somehow end. We absolutely will somehow deal with dragons, one way or another. Also, killing them was just one of the options. And saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third. We absolutely will deal with dragons. That is literally the entire story of the game. Which means that Kormir's defeatist attitude is a priori wrong from a meta-narrative standpoint.

    What's entirely false isn't "we're going to deal with the dragons", it's "So her whole reasoning that gods simply cannot be part of it for some space-magic reason is again something that we know as players not to be true. Anything that we are going to do to remaining dragons could be easily done by Gods."

    Re-read my previous post with that in mind.

    And about "saying how killing them is not on the table is not true since we already killed two, and just tried to kill the third" - that's wholly false, because "literally the main story" tells us that the world can only handle the death of three Elder Dragons. We, again, require replacements first. The only reason we could try to kill Kralkatorrik was because Aurene was present and ready, which wouldn't have been true had Kormir intervened in Path of Fire after we met her.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    That makes no sense. It would make sense if killing balthazar took some epic effort. So then you could reason it with extensive damages, but we literally stabbed him with a magical sword. There was no epic power leveles fight needed. Thats why i'm saying that narrative pushed by Kormir is at odds with what game otherwise presents.
    And that is the core issue. Kormir keeps saying that "power levels" would be off the charts if gods entered the field. But we ourselves see that that is not ever necessary. No epic levels of power are needed to deal with elder dragons, no epic levels of power were needed to deal with Balthazar. Her proclamations are at odds with how we as player character are dealing with those issues she is running away from.

    And also, it took Kormir absorbing Abaddons power to mitigate the results of mortals fighting god

    Think of it like this:

    Taking a mortal is like taking a machine gun to infiltrate a ship that's able to fire ballistic missiles and obliterate a city.

    Taking a god is like taking a nuke to infiltrate a ship that's able to fire ballistic missiles and obliterate a city.

    The way Kormir words it, is that the gods aren't capable of just "stabbing with a magical sword" (which isn't only what we did, tbh, not would be needed by Kormir since we needed Sohothin for the damage buff). The gods aren't capable of fighting like mortals fight, their power is too great.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Who ever said anything about gods dying on Tyria? The issue is that games portrays fighting elder dragons as way to easy of a feat to be afraid of gods dying or whatnot. But I do admit it is a legitimate risk to be worried about. Also, Gods could have fought within our "Aurene" plan. Its not "gods kill dragons- world end". Gods could've participated in the Glint's legacy more actively.

    Kormir said something about gods dying. It's literally her entire kitten point on top of the nuke versus machine gun. Either the gods win, and kill the Elder Dragons without replacement ready and the world dies. Or the dragons win and kill a god and either a) cannot consume that magic thus the world dies, or b) consumes the magic and becomes so powerful that what they are now, even Kralk atm, is laughably weak in comparison.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Or they can put them back to sleep and go back to the mists?

    How? How does one put an Elder Dragon to sleep?

    The only way that's been managed is by using a (literal mcguffin) device that does something even the gods cannot, altering the very nature of Tyria's The All.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    How? How does one put an Elder Dragon to sleep?

    The only way that's been managed is by using a (literal mcguffin) device that does something even the gods cannot, altering the very nature of Tyria's The All.

    Hasn't this been the dragon strategy for the Order of Whispers from the beginning? Put them back to sleep.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    How? How does one put an Elder Dragon to sleep?

    The only way that's been managed is by using a (literal mcguffin) device that does something even the gods cannot, altering the very nature of Tyria's The All.

    Hasn't this been the dragon strategy for the Order of Whispers from the beginning? Put them back to sleep.

    Rather than a strategy, the very short-lived barely brought up subplot was that the OoW believed the Elder Dragons could not be killed and that the only method of victory was to find a way to put them to sleep. They never knew if such was possible, let alone knew how to do so.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    @Sir Vincent III.1286
    Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

    1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

    Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

    That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

    Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    @Sir Vincent III.1286
    Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

    1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

    Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

    Primordus stirred due to the magic released from Abaddon's death. Not residual, but the magic that Kormir absorbed.

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.
    Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

    That moment of the magic being unleashed before being contained again is what stirred Primordus. It didn't stir Primordus until the moment it was released.

    That said...

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

    Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

    True. But I wasn't referring to when Abaddon died at all in my comment anyways. (My only reference to GW1's content in general was that was when the Elder Dragons became hungry, as stated by Glint in Edge of Destiny; their bellies were empty 300 years prior to that confrontation, aka ~45 years before Abaddon's death).

    I was referring to the act of the gods walking on Tyria. Before the Exodus, the Elder Dragons were asleep and sated still for 1,000 years. But if the Six Gods were to arrive on the world now, as the whole "why can't the gods just fight the Elder Dragons" argument would require, the Elder Dragons are awake, and actively devouring magic from multiple sources.

    Thus, because the Elder Dragons are now awake, hungry, and attentive, the Six Gods may act as a beacon for their attention if they return to Tyria, while the Six didn't while the Elder Dragons were asleep, unattentive, and sated while on Tyria prior to the Exodus.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    @Sir Vincent III.1286
    Incidentally, you highlight the important point countering your argument, while completely skirting around it. The Elder Dragons were asleep, with still 1,000 years' worth of magic inside of them before getting hungry during gw1's era.

    1,000 year worth of magic inside? Where did that number came from? Primo was sound asleep when Abaddon died just as he was sound asleep when the gods were duking it out.

    Primo stirred at the residual, RESIDUAL, magic released by Abaddon's death, yet he didn't flinched while the gods were duking it out releasing large amount of magic. The amount is large enough that turned the sea into a desert.

    Primordus stirred due to the magic released from Abaddon's death. Not residual, but the magic that Kormir absorbed.

    Kormir: I was there to contain the damage, but by then it was too late.
    Kormir: The surge of power upended the balance of magic in Tyria, and stirred Primordus from his slumber—triggering this latest cycle of destruction.

    That moment of the magic being unleashed before being contained again is what stirred Primordus. It didn't stir Primordus until the moment it was released.

    That said...

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    That's a pretty big difference than being awake, hungry, and attentive, and being asleep and still sated.

    Primo was not awake, hungry, and attentive when Abaddon died so that argument is invalid.

    True. But I wasn't referring to when Abaddon died at all in my comment anyways. (My only reference to GW1's content in general was that was when the Elder Dragons became hungry, as stated by Glint in Edge of Destiny; their bellies were empty 300 years prior to that confrontation, aka ~45 years before Abaddon's death).

    I was referring to the act of the gods walking on Tyria. Before the Exodus, the Elder Dragons were asleep and sated still for 1,000 years. But if the Six Gods were to arrive on the world now, as the whole "why can't the gods just fight the Elder Dragons" argument would require, the Elder Dragons are awake, and actively devouring magic from multiple sources.

    Thus, because the Elder Dragons are now awake, hungry, and attentive, the Six Gods may act as a beacon for their attention if they return to Tyria, while the Six didn't while the Elder Dragons were asleep, unattentive, and sated while on Tyria prior to the Exodus.

    That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

    Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also. Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    You don’t see the problem with making the PC a god in GW1 or GW2?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

    So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

    Because then you'd be wrong.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

    Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a MASSIVE issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the Six Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

    Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

    So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

    Because then you'd be wrong.

    If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

    Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

    Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

    Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a MASSIVE issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the Six Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

    Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

    I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

    As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

    So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

    Because then you'd be wrong.

    If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

    I mean, there's literally also Kralkatorrik, since we're talking about before Balthazar even entered Vabbi.

    And if we go into the realm of hypotheticals, then all six Elder Dragons count for the argument.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

    Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

    Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

    Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

    Lyssa never absorbed his magic. We literally witness, first hand, ALL of Abaddon's magic going into Kormir. There was none left over for Lyssa to rule.

    And yes, Lyssa has references to reflection and water before Abaddon's death. We see it plain as sight in both the Mirror of Lyss area in Vabbi (in the area itself and in GW1), and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr.

    Lyssa isn't the only one who gains/loses "secondary domains" with Kormir's rise. Light and Spirit goes from Dwayna to Kormir. Just as Dhuum has jack kitten on Ice despite it being Grenth's main secondary domain. The Gods' true domains are shown as being Life, Death, War(/Conflict), Knowledge(/Truth/Secrets/Wisdom), Beauty, and Nature. Not fire, ice, water, light, order, spirit, darkness, etc.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a MASSIVE issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the Six Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

    Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

    I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

    As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

    I literally quoted you saying that the commander should/would "ascend to godhood".

    You wanna know the difference between an MMO player character with a sequel MMO becoming a god, compared to a movie character taking on a mortal role?

    1. You cannot name that player character, ever, because there is no way to voice an infinitely randomized name.
    2. You cannot even put the name in text in the sequel, because even when linking accounts, every and any account could have more than one character. Thus, the god would be eternally unnamed. Or ArenaNet would have to give a new name that has jack kitten relation to your GW1 character and thus it feels like they followed a different canon that erased all you've done in the previous game because it wasn't really your character in the end.
    3. You cannot show the godliness in mechanics, because that will imbalance the game. Pre-godhood and post-godhood would be fundamentally the same kitten thing.
    4. You cannot show the godliness in visuals, unless it is client-based, because then there would be visually a million gods out and about.
    5. Per point 3, you cannot make new content or story, because you're a kitten god, what can be a reasonable plot that cannot be solved with a snap of your fingers. Especially as the god of knowledge, by rights you should have all the knowledge in the world if not universe and be incapable of being tricked or manipulated (otherwise you're not really a god of knowledge) or have issue knowing the enemies' plans and intentions, and as god unless the enemy is a godkiller, you'd no doubt have the power to just solve the issue in a single instance.

    It's more than "a hurdle", it's literally impossible.

    It's doable in a single player game, it'd be something that could happen if GW was like Dragon Age, but it simply isn't feasible with impact in an MMO.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sir Vincent III.1286Sir Vincent III.1286 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2019

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    That's still not valid since Primo and Jormag was sent back to slumber before we asked Kormir for help. So if the gods came to help to fight Balthazar then later on Kral, the other Dragons will continue to slumber. Which makes Kormir's excuse not to intervene unacceptable.

    So, you're saying that Primordus and Jormag are the only Elder Dragons in existence?

    Because then you'd be wrong.

    If you're referring to the the Deep Sea Dragon, I doubt that it will come to the surface to challenge the gods.

    I mean, there's literally also Kralkatorrik, since we're talking about before Balthazar even entered Vabbi.

    And if we go into the realm of hypotheticals, then all six Elder Dragons count for the argument.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Since we also know that the other gods can absorb magic just as Lyssa absorbed some of Abaddon's magic, all Five could kill both Balt and Kral and absorb the magic among themselves to prevent a catastrophe. The new god of war could use the magic also.

    Lyssa never absorbed any of Abaddon's magic. If you think she did because she's goddess of water, she was goddess of reflctions and water surfaces even before and during Nightfall. Nothing suggests a full-fledged god can continue to absorb magic.

    Eh? Lyssa was never the goddess of water. Abaddon was the god of water. After Abaddon died, now Lyssa is the goddess of water. Just as Kormir became the goddess of Truth after absorbing Abaddon's magic, Lyssa became the goddess of water after absorbing his magic.

    Reflection on the water does not give her power to rule water. You can also see reflection on ice, yet Grenth rules over ice, not Lyssa.

    Lyssa never absorbed his magic. We literally witness, first hand, ALL of Abaddon's magic going into Kormir. There was none left over for Lyssa to rule.

    And yes, Lyssa has references to reflection and water before Abaddon's death. We see it plain as sight in both the Mirror of Lyss area in Vabbi (in the area itself and in GW1), and in the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr.

    Lyssa isn't the only one who gains/loses "secondary domains" with Kormir's rise. Light and Spirit goes from Dwayna to Kormir. Just as Dhuum has jack kitten on Ice despite it being Grenth's main secondary domain. The Gods' true domains are shown as being Life, Death, War(/Conflict), Knowledge(/Truth/Secrets/Wisdom), Beauty, and Nature. Not fire, ice, water, light, order, spirit, darkness, etc.

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Besides, as the commander, I am ready to do what Kormir did -- ascend to godhood by absorbing the magic.

    Why was it that the commander was denied the same chance that was given to Kormir when Balthazar died? The commander could have been the demigod of war.

    (To be honest, Kormir stole that moment from my GW1 character also. My GW1 character would have been the god of Truth right now.)

    Balthazar was no longer a god when he died. He had no divinity to pass on. The Commander cannot become a god because one does not simply absorb god magic, they must be blessed first. And there is a MASSIVE issue in story and mechanics with the concept of making player characters gods. Besides the fact that it would be impossible to ever name the new god, while we can all be a Pact Commander, not all players can be a member of the Six Gods. And that's just the beginning of the issues.

    Players becoming godlike beings of mass importance is a series ender, because you'd never be able to reference that character.

    I never said the commander becoming god, rather a demigod because that's what Balthazar is without his divinity.

    As for the player taking on the power of Abaddon in GW1, the player will simply become the new Abaddon. Just like Wesley taking on the mantle of Dread Pirate Roberts. It just take a little creative thinking to overcome that hurdle.

    I literally quoted you saying that the commander should/would "ascend to godhood".

    You wanna know the difference between an MMO player character with a sequel MMO becoming a god, compared to a movie character taking on a mortal role?

    1. You cannot name that player character, ever, because there is no way to voice an infinitely randomized name.
    2. You cannot even put the name in text in the sequel, because even when linking accounts, every and any account could have more than one character. Thus, the god would be eternally unnamed. Or ArenaNet would have to give a new name that has jack kitten relation to your GW1 character and thus it feels like they followed a different canon that erased all you've done in the previous game because it wasn't really your character in the end.
    3. You cannot show the godliness in mechanics, because that will imbalance the game. Pre-godhood and post-godhood would be fundamentally the same kitten thing.
    4. You cannot show the godliness in visuals, unless it is client-based, because then there would be visually a million gods out and about.
    5. Per point 3, you cannot make new content or story, because you're a kitten god, what can be a reasonable plot that cannot be solved with a snap of your fingers. Especially as the god of knowledge, by rights you should have all the knowledge in the world if not universe and be incapable of being tricked or manipulated (otherwise you're not really a god of knowledge) or have issue knowing the enemies' plans and intentions, and as god unless the enemy is a godkiller, you'd no doubt have the power to just solve the issue in a single instance.

    It's more than "a hurdle", it's literally impossible.

    It's doable in a single player game, it'd be something that could happen if GW was like Dragon Age, but it simply isn't feasible with impact in an MMO.

    This is a very interesting reply.

    First you argue that Kormir cannot help because of the Dragon then you end your reply trying to argue against the player becoming god since as a god, I can simply solve anything "with a snap of my fingers". This is really my point, I only want to assume Kormir's godhood only because she not very good at her job.

    Let's think about this for a minute here. As a god, assuming that my GW1 character becomes the god instead of Kormir, I can end Balthazar and the ED with a snap of my fingers, however just as you said, it's not a reasonable plot. But why Kormir refuse to do just that, solve the problem with a single snap?

    If being a god would be that powerful, then why are the EDs a problem for Kormir, let alone to all Six?
    If being a god would be that powerful, they could've ended Balthazar right there and then.
    Even if the ED fully woke up and saw the Deep Sea Dragon flopping on Lion's Arch like Magicarp out of water, all it would take is one snap, right?

    We know for a fact that when the gods did battle each other, the extent of the damage is the Crystal Desert. Minuscule compare to the rest of Tyria and there were no global damagse like weather pattern change, sea level rising, or "global warming". None. Instead, the creatures in Tyria are only in danger to each other. So the argument that they will destroy Tyria, assuming that they are capable to do so which I doubt, is implausible.

    At the same time, we know for a fact the the Elder Dragons awoken before and also did not destroy Tyria even though they are more powerful than the gods.

    So those are the facts, the gods cannot destroy Tyria nor can the Elder Dragons. These facts have not been disputed.

    With that in mind, Kormir made the excuse that their battle against Balthazar will destroy Tyria. I believe she's lying.

    First of all she's not Glint who can see the future. Second, she may be the god of Truth, but she's also the god of Secrets. I believe that she's keeping the truth a secret. As a god of truth I would know how to end Balthazar with minimal damage and even if I cannot personally do it, I would grant power to the mortals to get the job done. The gods did that when the humans were fighting the menace of the world in GW1. The gods should have stayed and helped.

    The truth of the matter is, Kormir knows that there is no saving Tyria that the Elder Dragons wakes up and slumber in a cycle to reset Tyria every 10,000 years...sounds familiar? Of course it is, anyone who played Mass Effect knows this. So Kormir and the gods decided to bail before the kitten hits the fan. She knew that the death of Balthazar, either by their hands or ours, will empower Kral. She knew that the chain of event will lead to Kral attacking the Mist where the gods are. If they refused to fight in Tyria, they could've battle Kral in the Mist. Yet they choose to leave. If knowing all these truths, they could have helped us imprison Balthazar again instead of letting us kill him.

    Here's the thing, I doubt that Balthazar simply offered his hands to be chained without a fight. I doubt that he surrendered without any effort to resist. They fought Abaddon before chaining him down, so it's safe to assume that Balthazar also put up a fight. But where are the damages? Did anybody even feel that some battle occurred? None. That to me shows that the Six has the power to stop Balthazar just as they did before without destroying Tyria, especially when Balthazar is not a god anymore.

    Instead, Kormir let us kill Balthazar as if this is the outcome she always wanted -- let the Dragons send everything back to the stone age.

    As for multiple players being a god, it can be done. Ever heard of Vishnu, a god who takes on multiple different avatars often times at the same time and still remain as one god? The gods of Tyria have used avatars before and they even manifest as one of the Dervish's form. The gods sending avatars is not a new concept and each player can be an avatar of the same god.

    EDIT: typos

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...