Daredevil vs Deadeye: Which one is best?

Sup guys,

So, I'd like to make a discussion about this subject. I'd like to know the opinion of everyone who has been trying Deadeye for the past 2 weeks and I'd like people to compare with daredevil and also tell us the pros and cons of each elite spec.

Earlier today I was doing some fractals with a not so experienced group and I felt how much I miss Daredevil's traits. As daredevil we can get the best mobility, almost unlimited dodges + swiftness, doesn't matter which weapon you are using.

I'd like opinions about each spec related to pve/pvp/raids/WvW.

Lets suppose that all deadeye bugs are fixed and focus on each elite spec traits, bons and utilities.

Well from PvP aspect all i can say, Daredevil >>> Deadeye. From pve aspect, deadeye does a good job with proper builds (without using the rifle) but i think daredevil's 3 pip endurance bar, the insane mobility kinda makes it meh for deadeye. Also in WvW it is so buggy with the projectile path, most of the time if you are using a rifle while kneeling, it will say obstructed even tho you can see the target properly and without a problem. I get they did not want PoF elite specs to be better or version 2.0 of HoT elite specs but good god our spec is one of the lackluster ones. I keep it in pve for a bit since it is new and i can use mounts while in openworld but when i am in conquest, back to daredevil no questions asked.

A lot depends on weapon of choice and gameplay style.P/d condition DE > P/d condition DaredevilP/P DE > P/P Daredevil.

S/d builds I found worked better on Core in many ways then with Daredevil , but can really synergize well with DE specifically if leveraging multiple steals (Via swindlers/mercy ) I never found the need to dodge as much with s/d as there those ports . S/p might miss PI. too much to give Daredevil up.

Too many are still confusing DE with Rifle. If we just want to compare Rifle with staff , Staff>Rifle in its current form.

If we look at the Utilities on a one for one basis the DE utilities overall are better IMO. Bandits defense is likely at or near the top of the list but Mercy is an excellent skill in a variety of builds and one many would prefer over BD. I prefer the Elite Shadow Meld over Impact strike. Yes it sweet when an IS pulled off but I found more often than not I ignore it as there other ways to damage en enemy. Shadow Meld I use all the time. Impairing daggers is a good skill , but distracting and fist flurry I found were little used as there other ways to lay down all that damage.

I find Binding shadow > Impairng daggers. I find Shadows gust with its knockback superior to anything but BD in its utility. AOE knockback(down) with Stealth and damge is excellent utility. The shadowflare is also something I see yself as using more then the Daredevil utilities. The Daredevil heal at this point, i see as superior just because of its much lower cooldown.

To the "distinguishing trait".

In the DE it Mark and a revamped steal. In the Daredevil it that extra dodge bar.

The new mark with the revamped steal can be a huge advantage in WvW from an offensive viewpoint. The Daredevil extra dodge mucg better from a defensive standpoint. I know a lot miss the port to on a steal but in WvW there so very many times you do not want to do this. I have used the new steal on my p/d condition build to down people manning cannons on castle walls without even flipping to a weapon. I find it hard to decide here which is "the best' as it so very situational and dependent on the build and how you fight. Both have advantages.

@babazhook.6805 said:Too many are still confusing DE with Rifle. If we just want to compare Rifle with staff , Staff>Rifle in its current form.

this is it I see mostly on forums and nonstop in game.I have found DE build without rifle, changed some to fits for me and this is great in open world and with mount to mobility for me its better than daredevil :Don pve dungs/fractals also its doing nice but now need to learn again how to survive without daredevil evade spam ;)and on pvp its also great without rifle..losing some mobility speed from dodge but in fight still is great in other way than on daredevil :)

as for me in pvp and pve it have own advantages and disadvantages but this is just another gameplay to thief like daredevil is other gameplay than core thief :P

Both in fixed state:

Daredevil:Made for those who enjoy melee combat.-Has the staff which is an excellent melee weapon for aoe-Has tons of mobility with access to 3 dodges-A lot of other melee weapons synergize with it's traits

Deadeye:Made for those who prefer ranged Thief

• Replaces Stolen skill with a ranged one which works for dual pistols and rifle
• Gets access to a long range weapon(Rifle) which many Thief have asked for
• Can self buff better then Daredevil

I left out group make up because it doesn't matter in my eyes since I run my own or with people I know. I go by play what you want philosophy and screw the meta. All content is made to be done by any class or elite spec. It's only the people that push their opinion on how it should be done on you.

With that being said, I prefer the Deadeye because of it's theme and range play-style.

You can't really say which one is the best because each playstyle is different. Daredevil is the best at melee combat. Deadeye is the best at ranged combat. Daredevil is best in terms of overall mobility. Deadeye is best in the ability to stealth.

However, if I were to pit one against the other the daredevil would most likely win in a fair fight if the DE can't keep their distance with Death's Retreat. Otherwise, the DE would kill the Daredevil before the Daredevil knew the DE was there.

Daredevil is better than Deadeye at everything...except maybe roleplaying.

The Daredevil has the deadeye beat in most things. It has higher direct damage and condi damage, higher engagement time, better defenses, more AoE damage, and better utilities in it's physical skills. The deadeye has the daredevil beat in two scenarios:

1: If you're in a group that is terrible at buffing. In that case, the deadeye is really good at group buffs.2: If you need to attack at range for some reason. Kneeling rifle is the highest thief ranged DPS, and it can also do things like spam immobilize.

A daredevil guildie came to me and asked who would win between DE and DD (we both mained daredevils). Where some situations seemed better fit for DE and some for DD, with the mobility and PI that DD offers, the DD would generally win the majority of fights between the 2. I hear of some people not liking DE, its clunky (it kinda is as well as the rifle), however if you play it like a DD instead of what you believe DE should be, you will see its actually really good.

My D/D build is D/P +P/P so I have times when I need range but majority I am in D/P. Once I started playing this way but replace P/P with rifle (and shadow meld as free backstabs is reeeeeeeeeeeeally nice) and its a beast.

I adapted to the class, build and my fights and this is the best suggestion/advice that I can provide.

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The Daredevil has the deadeye beat in most things. It has higher direct damage and condi damage, higher engagement time, better defenses, more AoE damage, and better utilities in it's physical skills. The deadeye has the daredevil beat in two scenarios:

1: If you're in a group that is terrible at buffing. In that case, the deadeye is really good at group buffs.2: If you need to attack at range for some reason. Kneeling rifle is the highest thief ranged DPS, and it can also do things like spam immobilize.

If you really believe the condtion damage output of Daredevil higher then of a DE build, Then I do not think you have really tested this in practice. There in fact little that the daredevil spec adds in the way of condtion damage. The only trait that specifically adds conditions is impaling lotus and that only a stack of bleed and torment on dodge. (along with that 10 percent boost).

DE revamped steal more then makes up for this wtih the ability to steal back to back wherein on steal alone you can double up on poison apps, confusions apps INI gain and Boon theft just by using mercy. Added to that might is all but guarenteed to be at 20 stacks (which is mroe damage then that 10 percent from impaling) and the stolen items EACH have conditions on them (Old steal only saw a handful of stolen items that increased condition damage).

Added and more easily accessible stealth also makes the p/d build specifically much deadlier.

I played Daredevil in an older condition build, went core and have since switched over to DE. DE works far better in the build. The ability to reset steal via Mercy or killing an enemy is significant.

Added to that IN DE as compared to Daredevil and using that same condition build you are going to see a significant increase in what your raw power damage will do in the DE spec. Again there that easier to get might and the 21 percent damage increase to the mark which Daredevil can not provide. Daredevil damage adds for condtion is pretty well all about the dodge. Outside of the dodge the rest of the traits do not do much for Condition builds.

I'm not talking about killing random mobs in the overworld or wandering around in WvW. I'm talking about in group content. In groups, you're going to be might capped, so that is useless. The 10% on dodge is the difference between doing 31k and 34k DPS in peak conditions, let alone greater access to uncatchable. The initiative gain doesn't mean anything, because you have to wait 10 seconds to use it, and even then you're replacing either a venom or caltrops to use mercy. You never want to replace those, even if you can get a delayed double-steal out of it. The ability to chain mark against sequentially defeated enemies means nothing when you consider that you can simply do massive AoE condi damage with caltrops, death blossom, and uncatchable without bothering with having to steal for buffs. Aside from that, havoc mastery adds direct damage and impacting disruption hits hard even on condi builds.

Even in a WvW scenario, a condi daredevil doesn't care much about might or stealth. I've fought and lost against condi daredevils, and the good ones are able to chain dodges endlessly, making them nigh impossible to hit while they do full damage in an area. A good condi DD can easily win 2v1 fights.

@"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said:I'm not talking about killing random mobs in the overworld or wandering around in WvW. I'm talking about in group content. In groups, you're going to be might capped, so that is useless. The 10% on dodge is the difference between doing 31k and 34k DPS in peak conditions, let alone greater access to uncatchable. The initiative gain doesn't mean anything, because you have to wait 10 seconds to use it, and even then you're replacing either a venom or caltrops to use mercy. You never want to replace those, even if you can get a delayed double-steal out of it. The ability to chain mark against sequentially defeated enemies means nothing when you consider that you can simply do massive AoE condi damage with caltrops, death blossom, and uncatchable without bothering with having to steal for buffs. Aside from that, havoc mastery adds direct damage and impacting disruption hits hard even on condi builds.

Even in a WvW scenario, a condi daredevil doesn't care much about might or stealth. I've fought and lost against condi daredevils, and the good ones are able to chain dodges endlessly, making them nigh impossible to hit while they do full damage in an area. A good condi DD can easily win 2v1 fights.

The thread asked about WvW and Pve and PvP was not specific to Raids.

I really do nt think you play WvW as thief to arrive at your conclusion. Trust me, P./d thief "cares" about stealth. Caltrops and death blossom are NOT daredevil specific. I played core p/d and d/d thief had access to the same. My old CORE p/d build as compared to my old Daredevil P/d build did not see much of a loss to damage when Daredevil dropped in favor of SA. Using SA line for stealth for p/d makes INI cleanse much more efficient than relying on EA. DB thief really relies on bleeds and poison s and the cover conditions they add do nothing to prevent a p/d thief from removing these every time they stealth.

Back to back stealcan apply 10 confusion and 6 poison . Thats better then caltrops will get you and on a similar cooldown. P/d can play uncatchable as well but given they do not need to dodge near as nuch are not as reliant on it. The stealth used by a P/d built is of greta benefit against things like mesmers and minions .

P/d thief also destroys d/d DB thief. I played both and switched from D/d once i realized how easy it was to counter with P/d , evade spam nothwitstanding. Use 3 to kite and all the DB thief is doing is trying to catch up even as you load him with more conditions then he can put on you and with that ease of stealth access that DE offers you got more INI to spare for that #3 or #2.

All that stealth in WvW results in way more sneak attacks with bleed and sneak attack raw damage is much higher with malice/might running even in a pure condition build. The range keeps you away from sccourges and out of Traps/wells.

in WvW thief does not roam with a zerg a heck of a lot so does nto get might from others.

To the stolen skills and mercy again.

Just focusing on a condition build. If I get stolen resisance just as example, I can use it back to back with mercy. This will add 6 torment stacks AOE to an enemy (along with giving me that resitsance). If I am in improv that means 12 stacks AOE torment available that can be used from 1500 range. With one in chamber traited another of these skills comes your way along with that 20 + stacks of might. You can not do anything like this wih daredevil specced. I have downed people running towards and away from me in WvW just by using steal with mercy. It also works wonders against people standing on their traps. (see DH)

These stolen skills also have a damage component. This means if I trait Spider venom just as example, load it , then do back to back steals with the Stolen skills those venom stacks are all loaded as well, at range just using steal. I have done this and still have all my dodges left and all of my INI left.

Obviously these combinations all depend on how you trait up . One can go SA DA DE , TR DE SA and so on to get various combinations of those on steal effects.

You will just do better with daredevil overall, you don't sacrifice any dps for personal survivability. Not to mention you can use it anywhere you go. The only place for deadeye is in wvw.

@Zlater.6789 said:You will just do better with daredevil overall, you don't sacrifice any dps for personal survivability. Not to mention you can use it anywhere you go. The only place for deadeye is in wvw.

This is true, but even then I've personally gone back to DD in WvW. DE is good in theory for WvW, and in the right circumstances it is quite powerful. Unfortunately it is way to easy to counter and Rifle is far too buggy to be relied on.

If you really want to be competitve, then stay away from deadeye. It's a slow ass spec without any advantages over daredevil except for having 1500 range (which is not even a real advantage at all since daredevil has many gapcloser). I'd even go that far and say that core thief does a better job than deadeye.

TL;DRDeadeye is more or less a sidegrade to core thief, but a big downgrade to daredevil.

Daredevil can shutdown deadeye or others quicker.For deadeye, you need proper setup.

pvp: DD>>>>>>> DE by miles.

@Cynz.9437 said:pvp: DD>>>>>>> DE by miles.

pve? Even more.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The Daredevil has the deadeye beat in most things. It has higher direct damage and condi damage, higher engagement time, better defenses, more AoE damage, and better utilities in it's physical skills. The deadeye has the daredevil beat in two scenarios:

1: If you're in a group that is terrible at buffing. In that case, the deadeye is really good at group buffs.2: If you need to attack at range for some reason. Kneeling rifle is the highest thief ranged DPS, and it can also do things like spam immobilize.

About Condi builds I would say DE condi build deal higher dmg but I wouldn't change all survivability that DD can provide over it. You can easily deal 30-50% dmg on an enemy only by using Mark+F2+Binding Shadow, But I dont think the loss of mobility you have as deadeye would put me in any advantage. And as Blood Red said, you can and probably will win a 2vs1 fight easier as daredevil. From what I experienced playing both builds, I can engage any fight as daredevil without worrying so much while as a deadeye I would have to worry about many details in a short time and any mistake could be deadly.And I think if you are facing a challenging enemy you'd like to have the chance to think and to react.

@OlsenSan.2987 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:The Daredevil has the deadeye beat in most things. It has higher direct damage and condi damage, higher engagement time, better defenses, more AoE damage, and better utilities in it's physical skills. The deadeye has the daredevil beat in two scenarios:

1: If you're in a group that is terrible at buffing. In that case, the deadeye is really good at group buffs.2: If you need to attack at range for some reason. Kneeling rifle is the highest thief ranged DPS, and it can also do things like spam immobilize.

There no doubt the added dodges give Daredevil added survivability , but I am fine with that. In fact as mentioned I was playing p/d condition core prior relying on stealth, distance and the p/d 3 trait for survival and doing fine while enhancing the build in other ways (more boon theft in particular). As such when I moved over to DE I found no real loss in ability to survive.

That said and predicated on the given steal , there is much to be said for the added survival component of DE for a condition build and that the 1500 range from which conditions can be applied and the boons offered by the same. I can use those steals at range as an enemy approaches and either whittle down his health prior to him closing if I get one of the damaging conditions, or get boons stacked on myself before he gets to me. This certainly not the survival of a Dodge as far as mitigation goes, but we all well know the first to win a fight is very often the one that can get the most damage in the quickest. As far as condition build P/d is concerned , the Cantrips offer much more utility all round for my build than did the Physical utilities of Daredevil. (the only one really missed is bandits defense)

When On my old Core build or the Daredevil version, I found I did not want to steal many times as the PORT to en enemy would get me killed. This meant Bewildering Ambush and the poison adds off serpents touch were not usable. With the new steal, I am never forced to hold off on a steal because it might draw me into a stack of traps or AOE or a situation where I am outnumbered by 4 or 5 enemy .

From 1500 range I can now single out a single enemy in that group (preferably necro or renegade) apply 10 stacks of confusion to him from 1500 range along with 4 poison and weakness AND another 10 bleeds to both him and all those that are standing close enough to him. This while instantly putting 20 stacks might on myself to push my condition damage well over 2000. Added to that , if I wished, i could instantly do a mercy and repeat the process. This significantly more offensive punch offered me than i could get out of Daredevil line or Core.

Daredevil - core - deadeye