DuoQ is out of control. This is NOT acceptable — Guild Wars 2 Forums

DuoQ is out of control. This is NOT acceptable

Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
edited April 14, 2019 in PVP

I just had a match where I went agaisnt not one, but TWO premades, with the #1 ranked player on it to top it off:
 
 

https://imgur.com/tmgvm54
https://imgur.com/ljFM5zU
 
 
Ok, Anet, in what world is this ok? Why is stuff like that and this https://imgur.com/F0VrrUg so common? How many more pictures must clutter my screenshot folder?
Are you really ok with this sh$t? Are we supposed to be ok with this? And no, this isnt an outlier, I have had several of these games over the past week, 1 premade usually, but this gems pops nearly once a day for me. You can see Im doing everything I can, i try to be positive, I do well as far as stats are concerned. But at the end of the day nothing beats build coordination and voice chat coordination. And of course, they abuse the system by partying up with someone with artificially low MMR (an alt, on which they purposely try to get the MMR as low as possible so that they are put agaisnt low MMR opponents when they queue up).

What part of competitiveness do you not grasp? Letting people queue up together makes it so that if you dont do it yourself, you are not being "competitive", this is the f#cking definition of having an edge over others. This is unfair and not fun for the receiving end, and eventually wont be fun for the premades either as they wont have players left to fight at this rate. I just dont understand it, do you value "playing with friends" worth your competitive integrity? Because if it so then Im out, Im not having fun. I have been loyal Pvp player since beta, having clocked nearly 6k games, have gone through all your crappy metas, stuck with underwhelming ele for 3 years, but this is the last straw for me.
 
 
 

edit: it seems other people abusing the PvP system are making it on reddit too: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/bcpwrj/do_you_ever_look_at_stuff_and_wonder_how_it_got/eksnu7z?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Best Answer

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭
    Accepted Answer

    Unranked: bring your PvE friend and introduce them to PvP. Also for those who "cant pvp without a friend" crowd as these abusers so try to defend this.
    Ranked: everyone on the same ground, all rules even across the board, no advantages
    AT: for those who wants to play with friends AND be competitive.

    We already have the system in place. Not sure what is the explanation Anet has for this system currently. But of course, their heads are so far up the arse that they cant be bothered to check their own forums and see whats happening in their game. Im honestly trying to stay civil but my blood is just boiling at the thought of seeing this descent to crappiness from my favorite game. I feel like Im in a sort of abusive relationship at this point and I need to learn to let go....

<1

Answers

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No, it is not competitive anymore and does represent personal skill even less than it used to. With some exceptions, most people from top20-30ish are all more or less equally good in my experience (not talking about people being carried by duos, OP classes and stuff).

    I had a discussion here on the forums some months ago. We tried to have a closer look at the matchmaker and how it forms teams with duoQ. And guess what, it probably does matter for the matchmaker if there is a duoQ on the enemy team (when you soloQ). But it also probably does not matter if there will be two. So the matchmaker gives you credit for soloQing against one premade, but not more for playing against two.

    That is what we could see in the code, might be wrong, probably isn't. But as I said in some other thread, I doubt we will ever get official details.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    start duoing yourself lol. not an elegant solution but its something you can do right away to tilt things slightly more in your favor.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Easy answer:
    When they had team queues, they had a match maker that took into account the teams, and would restrict the matches so that teams didn't outmatch solos by too much.
    They got rid of team queues, so they didn't need that algorythm. They also kept the kitten balance, and allowed toxic behaviour to thrive, now they can't do anything about it, because there's just not enough players to have a healthy matchmaker.
    But hey, everything is alright, i mean the guy in charge of PvP survived the lay off, so he must be doing a good job, right?

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    start duoing yourself lol. not an elegant solution but its something you can do right away to tilt things slightly more in your favor.

    THAT is the issue though, you should NOT be forced to duoQ up to be at "fair" competitive stand. I should not have to get someone I know get a second account, lose games on purpose to lower their MMR and then queue up with them for the easy wins and queue times. Playing the system should not be rewarded.

    uh all I said was to duoQ as well. you don't have to wintrade if you don't want to, unless you want to get into top (insert # here). otherwise yeah being forced to duoQ to be competitive isn't a great solution, but like I said, it is one that you can do.

    The horror...…….the horror...…….the horror...…….

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Fortus.6175 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    start duoing yourself lol. not an elegant solution but its something you can do right away to tilt things slightly more in your favor.

    THAT is the issue though, you should NOT be forced to duoQ up to be at "fair" competitive stand. I should not have to get someone I know get a second account, lose games on purpose to lower their MMR and then queue up with them for the easy wins and queue times. Playing the system should not be rewarded.

    uh all I said was to duoQ as well. you don't have to wintrade if you don't want to, unless you want to get into top (insert # here). otherwise yeah being forced to duoQ to be competitive isn't a great solution, but like I said, it is one that you can do.

    I didnt say anything about wintrading though. All I said was playing the system, by having someone to play with which is decent and they being on a artificially deflated MMR account (aka alts).

    Win trading is when you queue up with another premade, and wait until queue pops up, then if one of the premade have a different queue pop up than the other, then one of the alts cancels the queue, and the party that still hasnt had their queue pop up cancels their queue as well. While the dishonor wears off, they go on either another alt, or their main, and they try queueing up again. If they have the queue pop at the same time, they are either put in the same team, or opposite. If on opposite, then one of the party "gives up" by feeding or afking or playing extremely suboptimal but not in any way that can be punished or be easily recognized (this win trading). If they fall in the same team (like my screenshot) then just proceed to steamroll the other people since in order for the matchmaking to "balance" out the dude in the party with "low MMR", they put low MMR people on the team opposite to the parties. Again, thats playing (abusing) the system, not win-trading.

  • 100% agree, i dont know why theres not 3 separate leaderboards for solos, duoQ allowed, and teams of 5. seems like a common sense to me....

  • I agree. And I'm so sad I spent all this time learning this game and not LOL or some game actually built for this format. Half of me is upset at Anet, the other half is upset with myself for being such a chump. The weird thing is it didn't really much matter until I got somewhat competent. Once you know what is actually going on you can see what a disaster the whole thing is. But you have to put in the time to see the man behind the curtain, and that is the cruel joke.

  • Delweyn.1309Delweyn.1309 Member ✭✭✭

    They introduced duoQ to try to please both soloQ and TeamQ people.
    But at the end, it doesn't please soloQ and TeamQ people, none of them.

    As it was suggested, the best option would be a 2 separate ladder, a full soloQ and a full TeamQ. But it would need some time and resssources and Anet prefer to spend them in pve.

  • Fortus.6175Fortus.6175 Member ✭✭✭

    @Delweyn.1309 said:
    They introduced duoQ to try to please both soloQ and TeamQ people.
    But at the end, it doesn't please soloQ and TeamQ people, none of them.

    As it was suggested, the best option would be a 2 separate ladder, a full soloQ and a full TeamQ. But it would need some time and resssources and Anet prefer to spend them in pve.

    The teamQ is already there, the tournaments. Unranked is the one that should be DynamicQ, for all of those people who want to play PvP with their friends. Ranked should be the one with equal rules for everyone.

  • ReaverKane.7598ReaverKane.7598 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Delweyn.1309 said:
    They introduced duoQ to try to please both soloQ and TeamQ people.
    But at the end, it doesn't please soloQ and TeamQ people, none of them.

    As it was suggested, the best option would be a 2 separate ladder, a full soloQ and a full TeamQ. But it would need some time and resssources and Anet prefer to spend them in pve.

    Nah, the time and resources wouldn't be that great, since they had those in place before... It's just reviving old code, in fact it might be very much possible that they just need to change one keyword in the whole code to make that happen.
    The problem is, that the PvP has been allowed to fester and rot since 2016, this led to most pvp players just quitting, and right now the matchmaking algorythm is struggling with duo queues. Imagine how badly it would work if there were two separate queues.

    PvP is dead, it has been led past the point of no return. And, not trying to be mean or anything, personally it stung seeing guys like the creator of SAB and most of the best jumping puzzles get laid off, while the guy that has been mismanaging PvP for these years, the guy that told me in this forum, in one of those forum "AMAs" that he didn't think Team Queue was competitive, in a team game, based around capturing points and team strategy, not a Deathmatch, but map movement and organization, that guy was left to keep steering PvP into the abyss.> @Fortus.6175 said:

    @Delweyn.1309 said:
    They introduced duoQ to try to please both soloQ and TeamQ people.
    But at the end, it doesn't please soloQ and TeamQ people, none of them.

    As it was suggested, the best option would be a 2 separate ladder, a full soloQ and a full TeamQ. But it would need some time and resssources and Anet prefer to spend them in pve.

    The teamQ is already there, the tournaments. Unranked is the one that should be DynamicQ, for all of those people who want to play PvP with their friends. Ranked should be the one with equal rules for everyone.

    Tournaments are not a replacement for Team Queue, they're time-constricted single elimination tournaments, they don't replace a ladder system. And the fact that apparently the devs agree with you, just shows how competent they are!

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    As much as I loath DuoQ and how you can potentially manipulate MMR with it I think having it is a good sweet spot between both types of players. I think the viable solution{?} is to get more people playing PvP so you don't get dragged into matches where the other team gets most of the mechanically skilled players. We need more people playing like R1-10 spread across both teams. I mean even if DuoQ were to go you'd still need mechanically sound players on your team to win. And honestly some of this team stacking seems to product of the matchmaker trying to balance professions across teams - which has been freaking great - But I'm hypothesizing on that. Scared that if DuoQ were to go it would take a lot of potential matches with it.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    They fixed the deflated MMR abuse ages ago - when you duo you are matched as if you both share the same MMR as the individual with the higher rating.

  • mrauls.6519mrauls.6519 Member ✭✭✭

    I didn't want duo queue back, but I know a lot of people did... The solution to fighting duo queue isn't to duo queue yourself. Most people that duo queue aren't even that strong together and won't hold a candle to a strong duo queue. At least with solo queue the chances of 2 strong people being on the same team was low... I felt like it was more balanced in that aspect. "Fun wise" I get why people like playing with their friends. My thoughts now? Combine NA & EU PvP and create 2 separate leaderboards - one for duo queue & one for solo queue

    lol

    Twitch | YouTube

    Dragonhunter main | Aspiring Herald

  • Marxx.5021Marxx.5021 Member ✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

    Can't really write off over half of the population as all being tryhards. I doubt there's more than 25 players in GW2 PvP who are hitting the off-peak hour duo Q's, queue dodging, and playing noob-farmer classes who would be accurately considered tryhards. Over 50% thought duo queue was a good idea, so in a word, no. Casuals want to play with a friend too, and do.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    I didn't want duo queue back, but I know a lot of people did... The solution to fighting duo queue isn't to duo queue yourself. Most people that duo queue aren't even that strong together and won't hold a candle to a strong duo queue. At least with solo queue the chances of 2 strong people being on the same team was low... I felt like it was more balanced in that aspect. "Fun wise" I get why people like playing with their friends. My thoughts now? Combine NA & EU PvP and create 2 separate leaderboards - one for duo queue & one for solo queue

    lol

    Server ping what?

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Solo queue shouldn't even be allowed in a game mode designed around 5v5 premades in tournaments.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    I have a 75% win rate while solo quing so if you're having issues, it's your personal skill that's the issue.

    I just want to point out that a majority of the people duo quing aren't even in voice chat. It's too much of a hassle. Sometimes, people just want to play and have fun with their friends. So, it's not a bad thing. In fact, nor is it right to force people to play alone in an online game. Furthermore, isolating, alienating, and punishing high rated players for being good at the game by taking away their ability to play with friends created one of the most TOXIC environments I've seen since release. That was a mistake and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen again.

    You had a decent team. However, judging by the chat window, your soulbeast seemed to have given up before it even began (which probably didn't help).

    Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually enjoy quing into duos as a solo player because the matches are more entertaining. As long as my teammates don't give up and afk, I'm usually able to carry or force a close match.

    Even solo quing into Helio + x duo is more than fine to me. Those matches definitely aren't unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination.

    Also, people don't want to take responsibility for anything. If duo que was removed, people would (and have in the past) blame their losses on a single, high-rated player on the enemy team and cite "unfairness" as the issue. If people really had an issue with duo ques being unfair, they'd complain when they were on their team as well. However, they don't. And, since they blame others instead of themselves, they don't get better.

  • Ithilwen.1529Ithilwen.1529 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

    Can't really write off over half of the population as all being tryhards. I doubt there's more than 25 players in GW2 PvP who are hitting the off-peak hour duo Q's, queue dodging, and playing noob-farmer classes who would be accurately considered tryhards. Over 50% thought duo queue was a good idea, so in a word, no. Casuals want to play with a friend too, and do.

    The vote was very close.

    I have not known or met anyone who duo queued "for fun." Duo queue is a method of taking advantage of the system, full stop.

    Mesmerizing Girl

  • @Shiyo.3578 said:
    Solo queue shouldn't even be allowed in a game mode designed around 5v5 premades in tournaments.

    But DuoQ should in a 5v5 gamemode? As in, an odd number of players per team...????

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I have a 75% win rate while solo quing so if you're having issues, it's your personal skill that's the issue.

    I just want to point out that a majority of the people duo quing aren't even in voice chat. It's too much of a hassle. Sometimes, people just want to play and have fun with their friends. So, it's not a bad thing. In fact, nor is it right to force people to play alone in an online game. Furthermore, isolating, alienating, and punishing high rated players for being good at the game by taking away their ability to play with friends created one of the most TOXIC environments I've seen since release. That was a mistake and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen again.

    You had a decent team. However, judging by the chat window, your soulbeast seemed to have given up before it even began (which probably didn't help).

    Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually enjoy quing into duos as a solo player because the matches are more entertaining. As long as my teammates don't give up and afk, I'm usually able to carry or force a close match.

    Even solo quing into Helio + x duo is more than fine to me. Those matches definitely aren't unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination.

    Also, people don't want to take responsibility for anything. If duo que was removed, people would (and have in the past) blame their losses on a single, high-rated player on the enemy team and cite "unfairness" as the issue. If people really had an issue with duo ques being unfair, they'd complain when they were on their team as well. However, they don't. And, since they blame others instead of themselves, they don't get better.

    I think you're inserting too much personal bias into this.

    Just because you can manage against some of the highest possible powerstacks, doesn't speak for the vast majority of players. When you play at the same level as some of the people abusing this; it's no surprise you do well in that scenario, but for the other 99% of people from plat1 all the way to silver3 it's an almost guaranteed blowout win/loss and ultimately equates to terrible match quality regardless, and yes; even wins in that case wouldn't feel very great, but people obviously don't go to the forums to complain about winning. Otherwise we'd hear more from some of these top players responsible.

    In saying this, you stand to show that you can indeed find success as a top rated player without DuoQ. As can all the people who abuse it, seeing as the leaderboard has barely if it all changed since the restrictions were lifted, and that to me seems like an argument against DuoQ, not for it. As is the fact that many of these pros don't even talk to one and other as they queue. How does that constitute as playing with friends? That makes it look exactly like a numbers advantage, or a farm rather than simply playing a game with friends.

    And yes, the argument is to remove DuoQ in general; not just to restrict it to a certain rating threshold again. That was admittedly a poor choice that did lead to some resentment. Like everyone is saying, TeamQ should be the replacement for the social option to play ranked with friends, open to all levels, and DuoQ needs to go away.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Ithilwen.1529 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

    Can't really write off over half of the population as all being tryhards. I doubt there's more than 25 players in GW2 PvP who are hitting the off-peak hour duo Q's, queue dodging, and playing noob-farmer classes who would be accurately considered tryhards. Over 50% thought duo queue was a good idea, so in a word, no. Casuals want to play with a friend too, and do.

    The vote was very close.

    I have not known or met anyone who duo queued "for fun." Duo queue is a method of taking advantage of the system, full stop.

    You don't have friends you want to play with? You don't have friends that want to play with you?

    Tis unfortunate. But, that's not the case for everyone. I guess if someone enjoys the company of other people, understanding that human beings are social creatures wouldn't be such an abstract concept.

    But hey, friends aren't for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Keep your sarcasm please. Many people have plenty of friends, but they do not exactly share all the interests. My GW2-friends for example are mostly roleplayers - and not particularly interested (or that great) in PvP. Why can't people play with friends in unranked? It shares basically the same matchmaker and Glicko-system.

    Everybody would have been happy with a little more effort, seperate leaderboards, proper implementation of duoQ in the matchmaker or something. Now the LB is even more off than before. It is one of the reasons many titles are not as respected anymore as they used to be (along with class balance stuff, wintrading etc. of course).

    It's not sarcasm. I prefer playing solo que but that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy quing a few games with some buddies.

    The thing is, if you argue a topic with someone, it's a good idea to understand where the other person is coming from. A lot of the things that I read from Ithilwen are so one-sided it's impossible to argue otherwise. And, furthermore, she never gives any actual reasoning asides from "it's not fair" no matter how much people try to explain things to her.

    Also, obviously, everyone has different tastes. But I didn't think it was that hard to understand that I was referring to the friends you meet in the gamemode. It's not unreasonable to assume that after YEARS of playing PvP, you'd at least make friends with a handful of players that would like to play with you again. If not, that's unfortunate.

    And, in your own words, most of my friends are PvPers who are interested in playing/competing/improving in PvP. There's no reason why we shouldn't play in ranked just because we enjoy socializing with each other.

    One real issue is that people like want all the good players (competition) to play unranked matches that don't matter so that they'd have an easier time in ranked. If you want to compete, play in ranked. If you think everything is unfair and that's the reason you can't climb, stick to unranked until your skill (and preferably your mindset) improves.

    To put it in perspective, I have never, EVER blamed the matchmaking as the reason I lost. I think about what I could have done better and go from there.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I have a 75% win rate while solo quing so if you're having issues, it's your personal skill that's the issue.

    I just want to point out that a majority of the people duo quing aren't even in voice chat. It's too much of a hassle. Sometimes, people just want to play and have fun with their friends. So, it's not a bad thing. In fact, nor is it right to force people to play alone in an online game. Furthermore, isolating, alienating, and punishing high rated players for being good at the game by taking away their ability to play with friends created one of the most TOXIC environments I've seen since release. That was a mistake and I sincerely hope it doesn't happen again.

    You had a decent team. However, judging by the chat window, your soulbeast seemed to have given up before it even began (which probably didn't help).

    Maybe I'm the only one, but I actually enjoy quing into duos as a solo player because the matches are more entertaining. As long as my teammates don't give up and afk, I'm usually able to carry or force a close match.

    Even solo quing into Helio + x duo is more than fine to me. Those matches definitely aren't unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination.

    Also, people don't want to take responsibility for anything. If duo que was removed, people would (and have in the past) blame their losses on a single, high-rated player on the enemy team and cite "unfairness" as the issue. If people really had an issue with duo ques being unfair, they'd complain when they were on their team as well. However, they don't. And, since they blame others instead of themselves, they don't get better.

    I think you're inserting too much personal bias into this.

    Just because you can manage against some of the highest possible powerstacks, doesn't speak for the vast majority of players. When you play at the same level as some of the people abusing this; it's no surprise you do well in that scenario, but for the other 99% of people from plat1 all the way to silver3 it's an almost guaranteed blowout win/loss and ultimately equates to terrible match quality regardless, and yes; even wins in that case wouldn't feel very great, but people obviously don't go to the forums to complain about winning. Otherwise we'd hear more from some of these top players responsible.

    In saying this, you stand to show that you can indeed find success as a top rated player without DuoQ. As can all the people who abuse it, seeing as the leaderboard has barely if it all changed since the restrictions were lifted, and that to me seems like an argument against DuoQ, not for it. As is the fact that many of these pros don't even talk to one and other as they queue. How does that constitute as playing with friends? That makes it look exactly like a numbers advantage, or a farm rather than simply playing a game with friends.

    And yes, the argument is to remove DuoQ in general; not just to restrict it to a certain rating threshold again. That was admittedly a poor choice that did lead to some resentment. Like everyone is saying, TeamQ should be the replacement for the social option to play ranked with friends, open to all levels, and DuoQ needs to go away.

    I focus on improving myself and take this mindset into whatever I go into. If you call that biased, then sure.

    To give a few examples: In Smite joust, I solo qued all the way from gold rank to masters. In Apex Legends, I solo que and climb higher on the leaderboards every day. In dota auto chess, I climbed from low-pawn to high-rook in under 2 weeks.

    No one ever starts at the top. As you observed, there's a reason I'm able to handle myself against the top players, coordinated or not. I NEVER blame anything other than myself. And, it's why I improve no matter what I put my mind to, in-game or out.

    While I won't deny that some people duo que to gain an advantage, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Losing is your fault and your fault alone. Saying, "He's better than me, it's not fair." is basically saying there was nothing else you could've done to come out on top. There's always a way to win, people don't seem to understand that.

    Also, thank you for noticing... I'm in high plat 3 because I'm able to compete against the top players. If you (or anyone else) cannot do the same, you don't deserve to be up there with me. It's as simple as that.

  • @Fortus.6175 said:
    Unranked: bring your PvE friend and introduce them to PvP. Also for those who "cant pvp without a friend" crowd as these abusers so try to defend this.
    Ranked: everyone on the same ground, all rules even across the board, no advantages

    hmmm yeah in the past around hot and pre hot i tried playing with real friends and the gf at points in pvp they all like the pve game but pvp made my male friends just rage quit the whole game in general i was able to train up my gf to be pretty good to be a really good assist for me in every area but eventually after only 3-4 months (not everyday) she quit pvp (only) entirely because of toxicity we won alot and assisted each other well toxicity was the only nail that was needed and she doesnt even usually play pvp online games but she was somewhat okay with this one.

    so no didn't work, bringing a pve friend into pvp in some cases it caused great harm to the enjoyment of the game.

  • Shocky.7356Shocky.7356 Member ✭✭

    We need a solo queue and anything else queue

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I focus on improving myself and take this mindset into whatever I go into. If you call that biased, then sure.

    To give a few examples: In Smite joust, I solo qued all the way from gold rank to masters. In Apex Legends, I solo que and climb higher on the leaderboards every day. In dota auto chess, I climbed from low-pawn to high-rook in under 2 weeks.

    No one ever starts at the top. As you observed, there's a reason I'm able to handle myself against the top players, coordinated or not. I NEVER blame anything other than myself. And, it's why I improve no matter what I put my mind to, in-game or out.

    While I won't deny that some people duo que to gain an advantage, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Losing is your fault and your fault alone. Saying, "He's better than me, it's not fair." is basically saying there was nothing else you could've done to come out on top. There's always a way to win, people don't seem to understand that.

    Also, thank you for noticing... I'm in high plat 3 because I'm able to compete against the top players. If you (or anyone else) cannot do the same, you don't deserve to be up there with me. It's as simple as that.

    Again, not so much about losing to that. Win or lose, blowout losses 500-100 are a symptom of poor match quality; something I believe DuoQ greatly contributes to.

    To the only extent that rating even matters; is that the population is too low to support DuoQ, so these top stacks that a plat3 player like you can deal with, are getting matched with people as low high silver just so they aren't waiting an eternity in queue. Those lower rated players could play with the mindset that: "Oh I should be in plat3, this is ridiculous that they'd contain a god such as myself to silver/gold/low plat." And to be fair; some do, but I can at the very least argue for myself in that I understand you have to crawl before you walk, as well as the pressure that's put on lower rated players having to contend with absolute gods such as yourself. Truly ascended divine beings. I just don't feel there's anything for them to learn from getting rolled on or carried by people playing at a much higher skill level than yourself, especially when they have the added advantage of playing in pairs, when you're likely to be playing alone. Blaming yourself and moving on would not help you to improve as a player in that common case.

    We know our place, trust me; we just want a better chance at being matched with people appropriate to our skill levels although I don't know how any inclination otherwise was even planted within that divine cranium of yours, oh holy one.

    Also, how in the world did you climb in Apex? There's nowhere to even climb in that game.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I focus on improving myself and take this mindset into whatever I go into. If you call that biased, then sure.

    To give a few examples: In Smite joust, I solo qued all the way from gold rank to masters. In Apex Legends, I solo que and climb higher on the leaderboards every day. In dota auto chess, I climbed from low-pawn to high-rook in under 2 weeks.

    No one ever starts at the top. As you observed, there's a reason I'm able to handle myself against the top players, coordinated or not. I NEVER blame anything other than myself. And, it's why I improve no matter what I put my mind to, in-game or out.

    While I won't deny that some people duo que to gain an advantage, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Losing is your fault and your fault alone. Saying, "He's better than me, it's not fair." is basically saying there was nothing else you could've done to come out on top. There's always a way to win, people don't seem to understand that.

    Also, thank you for noticing... I'm in high plat 3 because I'm able to compete against the top players. If you (or anyone else) cannot do the same, you don't deserve to be up there with me. It's as simple as that.

    Again, not so much about losing to that. Win or lose, blowout losses 500-100 are a symptom of poor match quality; something I believe DuoQ greatly contributes to.

    To the only extent that rating even matters; is that the population is too low to support DuoQ, so these top stacks that a plat3 player like you can deal with, are getting matched with people as low high silver just so they aren't waiting an eternity in queue. Those lower rated players could play with the mindset that: "Oh I should be in plat3, this is ridiculous that they'd contain a god such as myself to silver/gold/low plat." And to be fair; some do, but I can at the very least argue for myself in that I understand you have to crawl before you walk, as well as the pressure that's put on lower rated players having to contend with absolute gods such as yourself. Truly ascended divine beings. I just don't feel there's anything for them to learn from getting rolled on or carried by people playing at a much higher skill level than yourself, especially when they have the added advantage of playing in pairs, when you're likely to be playing alone. Blaming yourself and moving on would not help you to improve as a player in that common case.

    We know our place, trust me; we just want a better chance at being matched with people appropriate to our skill levels although I don't know how any inclination otherwise was even planted within that divine cranium of yours, oh holy one.

    Also, how in the world did you climb in Apex? There's nowhere to even climb in that game.

    Blowouts happen frequently, whether or not duo ques exist. In fact, I'd wager matches are even more volatile when it's solos only. Duo quing helps minimize the chance of losing to one because now you have at least 1 person on your team that you can rely on (besides yourself).

    Also, if people need advice, they only need to ask. Anything PvP-related regarding combat/rotations/builds/etc. etc. I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

    Judging by your tone: I wrote the last sentence in my previous post to address the fact that some people believe they deserve wins. Hence, blaming the matchmaker as the reason for their losses. This, of course, is incorrect. If you aren't able to consistently beat (or at least hold your own) against one or more top players, you shouldn't expect to be able to win matches against them. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, you could argue that you shouldn't be in the same matches as them at all. However, this isn't an issue with the matchmaker nor duo que, it's an issue with the (lack of) population.

    And, I guess it depends on the person. Personally, if I'm new to a game, I would much rather be matched up against the best possible players and get steamrolled repeatedly till I get better. In this scenario, I'd be watching people play very, very well and work out ways to mimic and counter these strategies directly. On the other hand, if you work your way from the bottom up, that's fine as well. But, you'd have to constantly adjust your tactics as your opponents improve (assuming you are climbing the ranks).

    Regarding 500-100 matches being "a symptom of poor match quality." I still don't believe the matchmaker is at fault. Every single time one of these situations is analyzed, it turns out the average rating of the players on each team end up being pretty similar. Still, the only way to get extremely balanced matches, would be to have the game adopt a scoring system like the one I wrote about in this thread: New Scoreboard.

    Here are the Apex Legends Leaderboards. Or, if you wanted, you could also go by the team rankings in the Apex Pro League Discord.

  • Hex.2579Hex.2579 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    first pic, you got pretty good players on your team too. but against 2 duoQ, it's freaking unfair as a soloQ with pugs. you can make it but the team is likely lacking chemistry big time.
    this matchmaking is the most random roulette ever.
    i'd like duoQ so i can play with friends at times but would like deathmatch for duoQ instead of throwing everyone into a pool with randoms.
    why can't they make 3 options? soloQ, duoQ deathmatch, and 5-manQ like the old days. so guilds can play against guilds, parties against parties more often instead of waiting for inconvenient AT hours. so everyone can eat their cake too! and reward tracks would continue to generate for all different modes.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Blowouts happen frequently, whether or not duo ques exist. In fact, I'd wager matches are even more volatile when it's solos only. Duo quing helps minimize the chance of losing to one because now you have at least 1 person on your team that you can rely on (besides yourself).

    Also, if people need advice, they only need to ask. Anything PvP-related regarding combat/rotations/builds/etc. etc. I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

    Judging by your tone: I wrote the last sentence in my previous post to address the fact that some people believe they deserve wins. Hence, blaming the matchmaker as the reason for their losses. This, of course, is incorrect. If you aren't able to consistently beat (or at least hold your own) against one or more top players, you shouldn't expect to be able to win matches against them. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, you could argue that you shouldn't be in the same matches as them at all. However, this isn't an issue with the matchmaker nor duo que, it's an issue with the (lack of) population.

    And, I guess it depends on the person. Personally, if I'm new to a game, I would much rather be matched up against the best possible players and get steamrolled repeatedly till I get better. In this scenario, I'd be watching people play very, very well and work out ways to mimic and counter these strategies directly. On the other hand, if you work your way from the bottom up, that's fine as well. But, you'd have to constantly adjust your tactics as your opponents improve (assuming you are climbing the ranks).

    Regarding 500-100 matches being "a symptom of poor match quality." I still don't believe the matchmaker is at fault. Every single time one of these situations is analyzed, it turns out the average rating of the players on each team end up being pretty similar. Still, the only way to get extremely balanced matches, would be to have the game adopt a scoring system like the one I wrote about in this thread: New Scoreboard.

    Pretty sure this is also a matter of personal experience/bias. On my end too. I found that pre-DuoQ blowouts were far less common simply because the matchmaking was; ime, better.

    I know you say this a population issue and i'm not going to argue against that, but I will argue against Duo having no noticeable impact on matchmaking. With a population so small there's only a handful of people playing at any given time on NA and EU, if you guarantee one of the highest ranked players to your team it's becomes even more unlikely you're going to be matched with or against 8 other players similar to your powerstack simply because the population isn't there. It was the main reasoning why it was removed back in S9, as well as; imo, the main reasoning it should have stayed gone considering the population has only dropped since. Not locked behind any rating wall as it was, but gone entirely. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12161/season-9-queue-changes/p1

    And that'd be ignoring other terrible factors in matchmaking exclusive to, or objectively easier to accomplish with DuoQ in place such as Wintrading, or the fact that there's no capper on how far apart two ratings can queue together.

    I don't know how you analyze a match like that either considering ranked is comprised of random solos/duos and you'd have to ask around map chat or add each individual person to determine their ranking, as well as review the match in question and try to understand what goes through the minds of randoms of different skill levels. Which I don't think is possible inside of ranked? At least from every perspective. If a game is being lost 500-100~(or less) i'm going to say it wasn't a very good quality match. Either someone gave up, or the game just wasn't matched properly. Without any further kills, backcaps, fullcaps that means at the bare minimum the losing team couldn't hold one point for more than 3.3 minutes. That doesn't exactly seem "gg close" to me, but again; this is all subjective. People will react to games like that differently.

    Overall, I agree it is a population issue. A self-perpetuating issue at that, but DuoQ amplifies the problem and only contributes to the decline. That's the case for pretty much every flaw Ranked SPvP has right now, including matchmaking.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Ithilwen.1529 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

    Can't really write off over half of the population as all being tryhards. I doubt there's more than 25 players in GW2 PvP who are hitting the off-peak hour duo Q's, queue dodging, and playing noob-farmer classes who would be accurately considered tryhards. Over 50% thought duo queue was a good idea, so in a word, no. Casuals want to play with a friend too, and do.

    The vote was very close.

    I have not known or met anyone who duo queued "for fun." Duo queue is a method of taking advantage of the system, full stop.

    You don't have friends you want to play with? You don't have friends that want to play with you?

    Tis unfortunate. But, that's not the case for everyone. I guess if someone enjoys the company of other people, understanding that human beings are social creatures wouldn't be such an abstract concept.

    But hey, friends aren't for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Keep your sarcasm please. Many people have plenty of friends, but they do not exactly share all the interests. My GW2-friends for example are mostly roleplayers - and not particularly interested (or that great) in PvP. Why can't people play with friends in unranked? It shares basically the same matchmaker and Glicko-system.

    Everybody would have been happy with a little more effort, seperate leaderboards, proper implementation of duoQ in the matchmaker or something. Now the LB is even more off than before. It is one of the reasons many titles are not as respected anymore as they used to be (along with class balance stuff, wintrading etc. of course).

    It's not sarcasm. I prefer playing solo que but that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy quing a few games with some buddies.

    The thing is, if you argue a topic with someone, it's a good idea to understand where the other person is coming from. A lot of the things that I read from Ithilwen are so one-sided it's impossible to argue otherwise. And, furthermore, she never gives any actual reasoning asides from "it's not fair" no matter how much people try to explain things to her.

    Also, obviously, everyone has different tastes. But I didn't think it was that hard to understand that I was referring to the friends you meet in the gamemode. It's not unreasonable to assume that after YEARS of playing PvP, you'd at least make friends with a handful of players that would like to play with you again. If not, that's unfortunate.

    And, in your own words, most of my friends are PvPers who are interested in playing/competing/improving in PvP. There's no reason why we shouldn't play in ranked just because we enjoy socializing with each other.

    One real issue is that people like want all the good players (competition) to play unranked matches that don't matter so that they'd have an easier time in ranked. If you want to compete, play in ranked. If you think everything is unfair and that's the reason you can't climb, stick to unranked until your skill (and preferably your mindset) improves.

    To put it in perspective, I have never, EVER blamed the matchmaking as the reason I lost. I think about what I could have done better and go from there.

    Ah, personal background then. I apologize for my reaction then. :wink:

    Still, I don't see the reason why you cannot play unranked with your friends. Implementing it in ranked (like this) only warps its accuracy. Don't get me wrong - I am all for duo or even teamQ in general. Of course it should be part of the game! I just wished they had put in a little more effort. Seperate LBs, better matchmaker, finally the new tournament format... now we are left with this and argue between each other, while the actual problem is with the implementation (and, I hope, we all agree on the fact that not everybody is content like this).

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Blowouts happen frequently, whether or not duo ques exist. In fact, I'd wager matches are even more volatile when it's solos only. Duo quing helps minimize the chance of losing to one because now you have at least 1 person on your team that you can rely on (besides yourself).

    Also, if people need advice, they only need to ask. Anything PvP-related regarding combat/rotations/builds/etc. etc. I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

    Judging by your tone: I wrote the last sentence in my previous post to address the fact that some people believe they deserve wins. Hence, blaming the matchmaker as the reason for their losses. This, of course, is incorrect. If you aren't able to consistently beat (or at least hold your own) against one or more top players, you shouldn't expect to be able to win matches against them. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, you could argue that you shouldn't be in the same matches as them at all. However, this isn't an issue with the matchmaker nor duo que, it's an issue with the (lack of) population.

    And, I guess it depends on the person. Personally, if I'm new to a game, I would much rather be matched up against the best possible players and get steamrolled repeatedly till I get better. In this scenario, I'd be watching people play very, very well and work out ways to mimic and counter these strategies directly. On the other hand, if you work your way from the bottom up, that's fine as well. But, you'd have to constantly adjust your tactics as your opponents improve (assuming you are climbing the ranks).

    Regarding 500-100 matches being "a symptom of poor match quality." I still don't believe the matchmaker is at fault. Every single time one of these situations is analyzed, it turns out the average rating of the players on each team end up being pretty similar. Still, the only way to get extremely balanced matches, would be to have the game adopt a scoring system like the one I wrote about in this thread: New Scoreboard.

    Pretty sure this is also a matter of personal experience/bias. On my end too. I found that pre-DuoQ blowouts were far less common simply because the matchmaking was; ime, better.

    I know you say this a population issue and i'm not going to argue against that, but I will argue against Duo having no noticeable impact on matchmaking. With a population so small there's only a handful of people playing at any given time on NA and EU, if you guarantee one of the highest ranked players to your team it's becomes even more unlikely you're going to be matched with or against 8 other players similar to your powerstack simply because the population isn't there. It was the main reasoning why it was removed back in S9, as well as; imo, the main reasoning it should have stayed gone considering the population has only dropped since. Not locked behind any rating wall as it was, but gone entirely. https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/12161/season-9-queue-changes/p1

    And that'd be ignoring other terrible factors in matchmaking exclusive to, or objectively easier to accomplish with DuoQ in place such as Wintrading, or the fact that there's no capper on how far apart two ratings can queue together.

    I don't know how you analyze a match like that either considering ranked is comprised of random solos/duos and you'd have to ask around map chat or add each individual person to determine their ranking, as well as review the match in question and try to understand what goes through the minds of randoms of different skill levels. Which I don't think is possible inside of ranked? At least from every perspective. If a game is being lost 500-100~(or less) i'm going to say it wasn't a very good quality match. Either someone gave up, or the game just wasn't matched properly. Without any further kills, backcaps, fullcaps that means at the bare minimum the losing team couldn't hold one point for more than 3.3 minutes. That doesn't exactly seem "gg close" to me, but again; this is all subjective. People will react to games like that differently.

    Overall, I agree it is a population issue. A self-perpetuating issue at that, but DuoQ amplifies the problem and only contributes to the decline. That's the case for pretty much every flaw Ranked SPvP has right now, including matchmaking.

    There have been several instances of people complaining about "broken matchmaking" during blowout matches. Occasionally, Ben (or another Anet employee, if I'm mistaken) actually checks the logs to determine if the match really was an anomaly. However, it always turns out that the average rating of the players on each team were generally pretty close. Around 50 points difference iirc.

    I disagree. Myself and many of the people I know disliked solo quing very, very much. It was bad enough that many of us stopped playing entirely. Hence, why some seasons had random, not very good players in the top 250. Those forced to que solo had extremely bad ranked experiences that were so frustrating it was hard to que more than an hour without logging off entirely.

    Solo quing is a horrible, horrible idea. It is impossible to carry a game completely as a solo player because there's no snowball mechanic. Even if you win every single fight you're in, you can only control ONE out of THREE capture points. Hence, if at least one other player isn't able to do the same, there's a high probability you will still lose the match.

    Duo quing solves this issue, as you now have at least 1 person to rely on. And, as a result, whether you win or lose isn't completely RNG.

    As some of you have astutely pointed out, "it's not fair to rate a solo player based on their performance with a duo." Correct. However, you forget that this is a five-man gamemode. The only leaderboard that should exist for Conquest should be for teams. Why? Because you're giving people a solo rating even though they have to rely on 4 completely random people in order to win the match. Solo quing is 100% RNG, and it's bad.

    If you really want a solo leaderboard, Anet needs to introduce a 1v1 gamemode. Single capture point, the size of Legacy mid. Then, you will have your solo leaderboard based strictly on your performance as an individual.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Megametzler.5729 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Ithilwen.1529 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Marxx.5021 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:
    As a community we cried about forced solo Q and voted to bring Duo Q back

    All is vain

    Only the try hards want duo queue to farm lower rated player.

    Can't really write off over half of the population as all being tryhards. I doubt there's more than 25 players in GW2 PvP who are hitting the off-peak hour duo Q's, queue dodging, and playing noob-farmer classes who would be accurately considered tryhards. Over 50% thought duo queue was a good idea, so in a word, no. Casuals want to play with a friend too, and do.

    The vote was very close.

    I have not known or met anyone who duo queued "for fun." Duo queue is a method of taking advantage of the system, full stop.

    You don't have friends you want to play with? You don't have friends that want to play with you?

    Tis unfortunate. But, that's not the case for everyone. I guess if someone enjoys the company of other people, understanding that human beings are social creatures wouldn't be such an abstract concept.

    But hey, friends aren't for everyone. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Keep your sarcasm please. Many people have plenty of friends, but they do not exactly share all the interests. My GW2-friends for example are mostly roleplayers - and not particularly interested (or that great) in PvP. Why can't people play with friends in unranked? It shares basically the same matchmaker and Glicko-system.

    Everybody would have been happy with a little more effort, seperate leaderboards, proper implementation of duoQ in the matchmaker or something. Now the LB is even more off than before. It is one of the reasons many titles are not as respected anymore as they used to be (along with class balance stuff, wintrading etc. of course).

    It's not sarcasm. I prefer playing solo que but that doesn't mean I don't also enjoy quing a few games with some buddies.

    The thing is, if you argue a topic with someone, it's a good idea to understand where the other person is coming from. A lot of the things that I read from Ithilwen are so one-sided it's impossible to argue otherwise. And, furthermore, she never gives any actual reasoning asides from "it's not fair" no matter how much people try to explain things to her.

    Also, obviously, everyone has different tastes. But I didn't think it was that hard to understand that I was referring to the friends you meet in the gamemode. It's not unreasonable to assume that after YEARS of playing PvP, you'd at least make friends with a handful of players that would like to play with you again. If not, that's unfortunate.

    And, in your own words, most of my friends are PvPers who are interested in playing/competing/improving in PvP. There's no reason why we shouldn't play in ranked just because we enjoy socializing with each other.

    One real issue is that people like want all the good players (competition) to play unranked matches that don't matter so that they'd have an easier time in ranked. If you want to compete, play in ranked. If you think everything is unfair and that's the reason you can't climb, stick to unranked until your skill (and preferably your mindset) improves.

    To put it in perspective, I have never, EVER blamed the matchmaking as the reason I lost. I think about what I could have done better and go from there.

    Ah, personal background then. I apologize for my reaction then. :wink:

    Still, I don't see the reason why you cannot play unranked with your friends. Implementing it in ranked (like this) only warps its accuracy. Don't get me wrong - I am all for duo or even teamQ in general. Of course it should be part of the game! I just wished they had put in a little more effort. Seperate LBs, better matchmaker, finally the new tournament format... now we are left with this and argue between each other, while the actual problem is with the implementation (and, I hope, we all agree on the fact that not everybody is content like this).

    No worries. Everyone makes decisions based on their own experiences. As such, I try to understand both sides of any argument before I continue a debate.

    We do play unranked. But the matches are already very easy even if I were to que alone. Ranked has better players, and people care about their rating (so they'll try harder). So, after a few unranked matches to warm up, we'll hop into ranked after for more of a challenge.

    I get what you're saying, but the more restrictions you place on people, the more people will leave. I play an online game to be able to spend time with, have fun, and compete with other players. If I'm forced to play alone in my favorite gamemode, I'll just find another game to play that doesn't impose rules like that.

    At the end of the day, it's about players enjoying spending time with friends vs. people blaming matches on unfairness and taking that fun away from others. It's not right, and you can tell by how quickly the gamemode died after introducing solo que, and, how it bounced back even better after duo ques' reintroduction. Not to mention twitch streams are more fun to watch now that streamers have someone else they can have fun with and talk to. So, it's not just watching a person get annoyed about how RNG every match is and getting frustrated because even though they might've played extremely well, the other 4 players were so bad they just couldn't win.

    I don't know if you realize how irritating it is to consistently win/stalemate 1v3s in a match only to end up still losing the other two nodes. That should never, EVER happen. Unfortunately, it's a common occurrence.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I focus on improving myself and take this mindset into whatever I go into. If you call that biased, then sure.

    To give a few examples: In Smite joust, I solo qued all the way from gold rank to masters. In Apex Legends, I solo que and climb higher on the leaderboards every day. In dota auto chess, I climbed from low-pawn to high-rook in under 2 weeks.

    No one ever starts at the top. As you observed, there's a reason I'm able to handle myself against the top players, coordinated or not. I NEVER blame anything other than myself. And, it's why I improve no matter what I put my mind to, in-game or out.

    While I won't deny that some people duo que to gain an advantage, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Losing is your fault and your fault alone. Saying, "He's better than me, it's not fair." is basically saying there was nothing else you could've done to come out on top. There's always a way to win, people don't seem to understand that.

    Also, thank you for noticing... I'm in high plat 3 because I'm able to compete against the top players. If you (or anyone else) cannot do the same, you don't deserve to be up there with me. It's as simple as that.

    Again, not so much about losing to that. Win or lose, blowout losses 500-100 are a symptom of poor match quality; something I believe DuoQ greatly contributes to.

    To the only extent that rating even matters; is that the population is too low to support DuoQ, so these top stacks that a plat3 player like you can deal with, are getting matched with people as low high silver just so they aren't waiting an eternity in queue. Those lower rated players could play with the mindset that: "Oh I should be in plat3, this is ridiculous that they'd contain a god such as myself to silver/gold/low plat." And to be fair; some do, but I can at the very least argue for myself in that I understand you have to crawl before you walk, as well as the pressure that's put on lower rated players having to contend with absolute gods such as yourself. Truly ascended divine beings. I just don't feel there's anything for them to learn from getting rolled on or carried by people playing at a much higher skill level than yourself, especially when they have the added advantage of playing in pairs, when you're likely to be playing alone. Blaming yourself and moving on would not help you to improve as a player in that common case.

    We know our place, trust me; we just want a better chance at being matched with people appropriate to our skill levels although I don't know how any inclination otherwise was even planted within that divine cranium of yours, oh holy one.

    Also, how in the world did you climb in Apex? There's nowhere to even climb in that game.

    Blowouts happen frequently, whether or not duo ques exist. In fact, I'd wager matches are even more volatile when it's solos only. Duo quing helps minimize the chance of losing to one because now you have at least 1 person on your team that you can rely on (besides yourself).

    Also, if people need advice, they only need to ask. Anything PvP-related regarding combat/rotations/builds/etc. etc. I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

    Judging by your tone: I wrote the last sentence in my previous post to address the fact that some people believe they deserve wins. Hence, blaming the matchmaker as the reason for their losses. This, of course, is incorrect. If you aren't able to consistently beat (or at least hold your own) against one or more top players, you shouldn't expect to be able to win matches against them. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, you could argue that you shouldn't be in the same matches as them at all. However, this isn't an issue with the matchmaker nor duo que, it's an issue with the (lack of) population.

    And, I guess it depends on the person. Personally, if I'm new to a game, I would much rather be matched up against the best possible players and get steamrolled repeatedly till I get better. In this scenario, I'd be watching people play very, very well and work out ways to mimic and counter these strategies directly. On the other hand, if you work your way from the bottom up, that's fine as well. But, you'd have to constantly adjust your tactics as your opponents improve (assuming you are climbing the ranks).

    Regarding 500-100 matches being "a symptom of poor match quality." I still don't believe the matchmaker is at fault. Every single time one of these situations is analyzed, it turns out the average rating of the players on each team end up being pretty similar. Still, the only way to get extremely balanced matches, would be to have the game adopt a scoring system like the one I wrote about in this thread: New Scoreboard.

    Here are the Apex Legends Leaderboards. Or, if you wanted, you could also go by the team rankings in the Apex Pro League Discord.

    I most agree with your speak, but Apex dont ranked. Apex games are against random. The gw2 equal is counting kill in unranked and ffa. You play against noob most apex. wait for rank please

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    For PvE players, imagine this. You can only que alone. Some people complained that's it's not fair for groups of PvE players to clear -insert group-based PvE content here- (raid wing/fractal/etc. etc.) in under X minutes. As a result, Anet made them solo que only. Now, whether or not you'll successfully be able to win is by relying on a team of completely random people.

    What would happen? The gamemode would die and those who stayed would be constantly frustrated. This is what happened in PvP. However, instead of the entire population suffering from this, it was only people who worked hard enough to get above 1600 rating.

    The result? Good players got rewarded by being unable to play with friends. And, instead of us bringing players into the game to play with, we would simply find another one entirely.

  • Megametzler.5729Megametzler.5729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    (...)
    I don't know if you realize how irritating it is to consistently win/stalemate 1v3s in a match only to end up still losing the other two nodes. That should never, EVER happen. Unfortunately, it's a common occurrence.

    But this is rather connected to low population. If you could match up with a full team in ranked, 90% of the games would be complete blowouts.

    I repeat, teamQ should exist, absolutely! And variable team sizes too! But should they be used for a leaderboard where they get compared with other smaller teams, even solos? I don't think that's fun for many people...

    Currently we have a situation where both sides are not really happy: Neither is there a pure soloQ nor can the teams have any size they want. No part of the community is truly happy. Yes, I think we desperately need swiss tournaments and another option for soloQ (ranked?), but people have been saying that for a year now. I don't think we will get a good solution anymore, so why bother.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @OneOfTheAvengers.3478 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I focus on improving myself and take this mindset into whatever I go into. If you call that biased, then sure.

    To give a few examples: In Smite joust, I solo qued all the way from gold rank to masters. In Apex Legends, I solo que and climb higher on the leaderboards every day. In dota auto chess, I climbed from low-pawn to high-rook in under 2 weeks.

    No one ever starts at the top. As you observed, there's a reason I'm able to handle myself against the top players, coordinated or not. I NEVER blame anything other than myself. And, it's why I improve no matter what I put my mind to, in-game or out.

    While I won't deny that some people duo que to gain an advantage, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Losing is your fault and your fault alone. Saying, "He's better than me, it's not fair." is basically saying there was nothing else you could've done to come out on top. There's always a way to win, people don't seem to understand that.

    Also, thank you for noticing... I'm in high plat 3 because I'm able to compete against the top players. If you (or anyone else) cannot do the same, you don't deserve to be up there with me. It's as simple as that.

    Again, not so much about losing to that. Win or lose, blowout losses 500-100 are a symptom of poor match quality; something I believe DuoQ greatly contributes to.

    To the only extent that rating even matters; is that the population is too low to support DuoQ, so these top stacks that a plat3 player like you can deal with, are getting matched with people as low high silver just so they aren't waiting an eternity in queue. Those lower rated players could play with the mindset that: "Oh I should be in plat3, this is ridiculous that they'd contain a god such as myself to silver/gold/low plat." And to be fair; some do, but I can at the very least argue for myself in that I understand you have to crawl before you walk, as well as the pressure that's put on lower rated players having to contend with absolute gods such as yourself. Truly ascended divine beings. I just don't feel there's anything for them to learn from getting rolled on or carried by people playing at a much higher skill level than yourself, especially when they have the added advantage of playing in pairs, when you're likely to be playing alone. Blaming yourself and moving on would not help you to improve as a player in that common case.

    We know our place, trust me; we just want a better chance at being matched with people appropriate to our skill levels although I don't know how any inclination otherwise was even planted within that divine cranium of yours, oh holy one.

    Also, how in the world did you climb in Apex? There's nowhere to even climb in that game.

    Blowouts happen frequently, whether or not duo ques exist. In fact, I'd wager matches are even more volatile when it's solos only. Duo quing helps minimize the chance of losing to one because now you have at least 1 person on your team that you can rely on (besides yourself).

    Also, if people need advice, they only need to ask. Anything PvP-related regarding combat/rotations/builds/etc. etc. I can try to answer to the best of my ability.

    Judging by your tone: I wrote the last sentence in my previous post to address the fact that some people believe they deserve wins. Hence, blaming the matchmaker as the reason for their losses. This, of course, is incorrect. If you aren't able to consistently beat (or at least hold your own) against one or more top players, you shouldn't expect to be able to win matches against them. But yes, I understand where you're coming from. At the same time, you could argue that you shouldn't be in the same matches as them at all. However, this isn't an issue with the matchmaker nor duo que, it's an issue with the (lack of) population.

    And, I guess it depends on the person. Personally, if I'm new to a game, I would much rather be matched up against the best possible players and get steamrolled repeatedly till I get better. In this scenario, I'd be watching people play very, very well and work out ways to mimic and counter these strategies directly. On the other hand, if you work your way from the bottom up, that's fine as well. But, you'd have to constantly adjust your tactics as your opponents improve (assuming you are climbing the ranks).

    Regarding 500-100 matches being "a symptom of poor match quality." I still don't believe the matchmaker is at fault. Every single time one of these situations is analyzed, it turns out the average rating of the players on each team end up being pretty similar. Still, the only way to get extremely balanced matches, would be to have the game adopt a scoring system like the one I wrote about in this thread: New Scoreboard.

    Here are the Apex Legends Leaderboards. Or, if you wanted, you could also go by the team rankings in the Apex Pro League Discord.

    I most agree with your speak, but Apex dont ranked. Apex games are against random. The gw2 equal is counting kill in unranked and ffa. You play against noob most apex. wait for rank please

    Here are the Apex Legends Leaderboards.

    The Apex Pro League discord requires everyone to play on Dallas servers with a countdown bot. Lobbies get filled with multiple (15+) high level teams. Or, you could brick and get enter a re-queue with other teams that also bricked.

    The discord has a scoring system, rules, tournaments (with cash prizes) and many competitive players (both signed to major/smaller esports orgs and FA's) looking to compete against other high-caliber players.

    So no, I disagree. There are two, widely-used ranking systems for Apex Legends. One for the entire population, the other for competitive players.

  • Multicolorhipster.9751Multicolorhipster.9751 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    There have been several instances of people complaining about "broken matchmaking" during blowout matches. Occasionally, Ben (or another Anet employee, if I'm mistaken) actually checks the logs to determine if the match really was an anomaly. However, it always turns out that the average rating of the players on each team were generally pretty close. Around 50 points difference iirc.

    I disagree. Myself and many of the people I know disliked solo quing very, very much. It was bad enough that many of us stopped playing entirely. Hence, why some seasons had random, not very good players in the top 250. Those forced to que solo had extremely bad ranked experiences that were so frustrating it was hard to que more than an hour without logging off entirely.

    Solo quing is a horrible, horrible idea. It is impossible to carry a game completely as a solo player because there's no snowball mechanic. Even if you win every single fight you're in, you can only control ONE out of THREE capture points. Hence, if at least one other player isn't able to do the same, there's a high probability you will still lose the match.

    Duo quing solves this issue, as you now have at least 1 person to rely on. And, as a result, whether you win or lose isn't completely RNG.

    As some of you have astutely pointed out, "it's not fair to rate a solo player based on their performance with a duo." Correct. However, you forget that this is a five-man gamemode. The only leaderboard that should exist for Conquest should be for teams. Why? Because you're giving people a solo rating even though they have to rely on 4 completely random people in order to win the match. Solo quing is 100% RNG, and it's bad.

    If you really want a solo leaderboard, Anet needs to introduce a 1v1 gamemode. Single capture point, the size of Legacy mid. Then, you will have your solo leaderboard based strictly on your performance as an individual.

    So I guess we're just ignoring what Ben said there? Aight. DuoQ and poor matchmaking definitely have a correlation then.

    If it's impossible to carry a game as a SoloQ player, and if it's so unbearable to play in... Doesn't that sort of contradict the whole 75% winrate SoloQ case you made to begin with? What about the fact that the leaderboard has hardly changed since season 12? Same people you're speaking for seem to do well either way. If it's a social experience they crave, we both know DuoQ is not that. Just like you said they hardly talk to eachother in a lot of cases. And they're complaining about a lack of teamplay or RNG, then it should be TeamQ they push for and not DuoQ as that's the only way for social and team play with a full team to exist while eliminating RNG.

    I suppose SoloQ is arguably more RNG, but there's no denying it's more fair. You had said before that DuoQ players do get an advantage over SoloQ players. I'm well aware it's a 5v5 gamemode, and i'm sure everyone else is too. That's why there's been an outcry for TeamQ to replace DuoQ as the option to play with friends. Not only is 5v5 fair by design, but that nearly; if not completely eliminates the RNG from matchmaking, whereas guaranteeing a single person to your team only cuts the RNG for yourself by 20% while giving every solo player in the lobby the added diceroll of having high-disparity top players basically running that game.

    If you want a fair match in Solos, at least there's the chance you might get one; whereas DuoQ's guarantee an advantage to the same players carrying those Solo games back before Duo was an option for them, which only makes it better for themselves really. SoloQ and TeamQ, despite whatever flaws; will always be the most fair ways to play ranked. You can only speak the same for Duos if 2v2 were to become a permanent arena because in a 5v5 gamemode there's always going to be 2 people restricted to playing alone.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    There have been several instances of people complaining about "broken matchmaking" during blowout matches. Occasionally, Ben (or another Anet employee, if I'm mistaken) actually checks the logs to determine if the match really was an anomaly. However, it always turns out that the average rating of the players on each team were generally pretty close. Around 50 points difference iirc.

    I disagree. Myself and many of the people I know disliked solo quing very, very much. It was bad enough that many of us stopped playing entirely. Hence, why some seasons had random, not very good players in the top 250. Those forced to que solo had extremely bad ranked experiences that were so frustrating it was hard to que more than an hour without logging off entirely.

    Solo quing is a horrible, horrible idea. It is impossible to carry a game completely as a solo player because there's no snowball mechanic. Even if you win every single fight you're in, you can only control ONE out of THREE capture points. Hence, if at least one other player isn't able to do the same, there's a high probability you will still lose the match.

    Duo quing solves this issue, as you now have at least 1 person to rely on. And, as a result, whether you win or lose isn't completely RNG.

    As some of you have astutely pointed out, "it's not fair to rate a solo player based on their performance with a duo." Correct. However, you forget that this is a five-man gamemode. The only leaderboard that should exist for Conquest should be for teams. Why? Because you're giving people a solo rating even though they have to rely on 4 completely random people in order to win the match. Solo quing is 100% RNG, and it's bad.

    If you really want a solo leaderboard, Anet needs to introduce a 1v1 gamemode. Single capture point, the size of Legacy mid. Then, you will have your solo leaderboard based strictly on your performance as an individual.

    So I guess we're just ignoring what Ben said there? Aight. DuoQ and poor matchmaking definitely have a correlation then.

    If it's impossible to carry a game as a SoloQ player, and if it's so unbearable to play in... Doesn't that sort of contradict the whole 75% winrate SoloQ case you made to begin with? What about the fact that the leaderboard has hardly changed since season 12? Same people you're speaking for seem to do well either way. If it's a social experience they crave, we both know DuoQ is not that. Just like you said they hardly talk to eachother in a lot of cases. And they're complaining about a lack of teamplay or RNG, then it should be TeamQ they push for and not DuoQ as that's the only way for social and team play with a full team to exist while eliminating RNG.

    I suppose SoloQ is arguably more RNG, but there's no denying it's more fair. You had said before that DuoQ players do get an advantage over SoloQ players. I'm well aware it's a 5v5 gamemode, and i'm sure everyone else is too. That's why there's been an outcry for TeamQ to replace DuoQ as the option to play with friends. Not only is 5v5 fair by design, but that nearly; if not completely eliminates the RNG from matchmaking, whereas guaranteeing a single person to your team only cuts the RNG for yourself by 20% while giving every solo player in the lobby the added diceroll of having high-disparity top players basically running that game.

    If you want a fair match in Solos, at least there's the chance you might get one; whereas DuoQ's guarantee an advantage to the same players carrying those Solo games back before Duo was an option for them, which only makes it better for themselves really. SoloQ and TeamQ, despite whatever flaws; will always be the most fair ways to play ranked. You can only speak the same for Duos if 2v2 were to become a permanent arena because in a 5v5 gamemode there's always going to be 2 people restricted to playing alone.

    I was going to address that in an edit but I decided to wait for someone to bring it up first.

    Yes, it's impossible to carry games as a solo player unless the enemy team repeatedly feeds into you 1v5. In other words, you have to keep the other 2 nodes on the map completely empty of enemy players so your team doesn't have to fight anyone.

    Let me put it this way. There's 5 people on your team. You need at least 2 nodes to win. With solo que, the only person you can rely on is yourself. If you're able to win every single node you're at, you will always have 1 node at all times. In other words, you can count on 20% of your team (yourself) to do the job. Whether or not the pugs on your team can do enough to cap 1 other node is completely RNG.

    To give an example, you might be able to win far, then rotate to mid and win a team fight. You cap mid because you're there but lose home and far in the process. You rotate home and win the node, but you lose mid and far is still an enemy cap. You rotate back to mid, win the node, but lose home again. In this scenario, your random teammates are never able to win a node on their own. Thus, you lose the match no matter how many fights you win.

    The only way for wins and losses to not be RNG is to have duo que where you're not the only person you can count on. This way, you can win one node and your teammate can win another.

    Even then, in solo que, with my teammates being completely RNG, the only consistent factor is myself. If I'm able to go above and beyond and force advantages by winning/stalemating 1vX fights every single match, it improves the RNG as my teammates will have less people to deal with across the map. Even though I might still lose some matches no matter how hard I try, I'm consistent enough that RNG will fall in my favor more often for that 75% win rate.

    And yes, if the same people are at the top whether or not duo que exists, the only purpose solo que serves is to frustrate us. What people don't realize is that unless they improve as players, it doesn't matter how many restrictions are imposed on the top echelon. They will never, ever be able to take their spots until they stop blaming matchmaking and the skill level of other players as the reasons they're losing.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    I mean, one can claim that system needs improving while at the same time recognising that oneself also needs improvement. Its not either or.

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I was going to address that in an edit but I decided to wait for someone to bring it up first.

    Yes, it's impossible to carry games as a solo player unless the enemy team repeatedly feeds into you 1v5. In other words, you have to keep the other 2 nodes on the map completely empty of enemy players so your team doesn't have to fight anyone.

    Let me put it this way. There's 5 people on your team. You need at least 2 nodes to win. With solo que, the only person you can rely on is yourself. If you're able to win every single node you're at, you will always have 1 node at all times. In other words, you can count on 20% of your team (yourself) to do the job. Whether or not the pugs on your team can do enough to cap 1 other node is completely RNG.

    To give an example, you might be able to win far, then rotate to mid and win a team fight. You cap mid because you're there but lose home and far in the process. You rotate home and win the node, but you lose mid and far is still an enemy cap. You rotate back to mid, win the node, but lose home again. In this scenario, your random teammates are never able to win a node on their own. Thus, you lose the match no matter how many fights you win.

    The only way for wins and losses to not be RNG is to have duo que where you're not the only person you can count on. This way, you can win one node and your teammate can win another.

    Even then, in solo que, with my teammates being completely RNG, the only consistent factor is myself. If I'm able to go above and beyond and force advantages by winning/stalemating 1vX fights every single match, it improves the RNG as my teammates will have less people to deal with across the map. Even though I might still lose some matches no matter how hard I try, I'm consistent enough that RNG will fall in my favor more often for that 75% win rate.

    And yes, if the same people are at the top whether or not duo que exists, the only purpose solo que serves is to frustrate us. What people don't realize is that unless they improve as players, it doesn't matter how many restrictions are imposed on the top echelon. They will never, ever be able to take their spots until they stop blaming matchmaking and the skill level of other players as the reasons they're losing.

    Just ignore the concept of TeamQ, ignore the proof that DuoQ negatively impacts matchmaking. Thanks for the conquest tutorial though, I guess? I'd say typical top player, but; that seems to be a lie after checking the leaderboard, unless you're playing on EU, and given everything you said I think it's safe to assume that whole "Solo only 75% winrate." case was also dishonest either way.

    This is circular logic, and rather than spam posts that will ultimately say the same thing as the last, i'm just going to cut it here. I think one way, you think the other and we've both given our justification as to why for people to review. Respect.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    I was going to address that in an edit but I decided to wait for someone to bring it up first.

    Yes, it's impossible to carry games as a solo player unless the enemy team repeatedly feeds into you 1v5. In other words, you have to keep the other 2 nodes on the map completely empty of enemy players so your team doesn't have to fight anyone.

    Let me put it this way. There's 5 people on your team. You need at least 2 nodes to win. With solo que, the only person you can rely on is yourself. If you're able to win every single node you're at, you will always have 1 node at all times. In other words, you can count on 20% of your team (yourself) to do the job. Whether or not the pugs on your team can do enough to cap 1 other node is completely RNG.

    To give an example, you might be able to win far, then rotate to mid and win a team fight. You cap mid because you're there but lose home and far in the process. You rotate home and win the node, but you lose mid and far is still an enemy cap. You rotate back to mid, win the node, but lose home again. In this scenario, your random teammates are never able to win a node on their own. Thus, you lose the match no matter how many fights you win.

    The only way for wins and losses to not be RNG is to have duo que where you're not the only person you can count on. This way, you can win one node and your teammate can win another.

    Even then, in solo que, with my teammates being completely RNG, the only consistent factor is myself. If I'm able to go above and beyond and force advantages by winning/stalemating 1vX fights every single match, it improves the RNG as my teammates will have less people to deal with across the map. Even though I might still lose some matches no matter how hard I try, I'm consistent enough that RNG will fall in my favor more often for that 75% win rate.

    And yes, if the same people are at the top whether or not duo que exists, the only purpose solo que serves is to frustrate us. What people don't realize is that unless they improve as players, it doesn't matter how many restrictions are imposed on the top echelon. They will never, ever be able to take their spots until they stop blaming matchmaking and the skill level of other players as the reasons they're losing.

    Just ignore the concept of TeamQ, ignore the proof that DuoQ negatively impacts matchmaking. Thanks for the conquest tutorial though, I guess? I'd say typical top player, but; that seems to be a lie after checking the leaderboard, unless you're playing on EU, and given everything you said I think it's safe to assume that whole "Solo only 75% winrate." case was also dishonest either way.

    This is circular logic, and rather than spam posts that will ultimately say the same thing as the last, i'm just going to cut it here. I think one way, you think the other and we've both given our justification as to why for people to review. Respect.

    I'm on NA but haven't played GW2 these past few months. This is why you don't see me up on the leaderboards. However, since you think I'm lying, here's a screenshot of a season where I had enough games played to qualify for it.

    https://imgur.com/a/HXmRGKS

    My winrate on GW2 efficiency for ranger is 60%. However, that's taking into account all of the games I've played since release. Obviously, as I've gotten better, that number has been going up consistently since then.

    To prove my point, in that screenshot, my win percentage is 60%. (116 / (116 + 77) = 60%)

    However, that was just with me solo quing casually every day on different classes/fun builds like zerker core glass ranger (which you can see me using in the screenshot). If I actually decided to go tryhard and ran meta bunker boonbeast for every single one of those matches (and every match I've ever played), the win ratio would've been even higher. With that being said, when I do, I usually win about 7-8 matches for every 10 games played. In 2-3 losses, I lose about as much rating as I gained for winning the 7-8. Wins net me anywhere from 3-7 rating, losses cost me about 20 each. Thus, stopping me from continually rising.

    If you'd like a more recent screenshot, I can attempt to find one.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 17, 2019

    @Multicolorhipster.9751

    Lol I went back in the recordings for my now-deleted twitch vods and found some really good examples of me stalemating/winning 1v3+'s all game on a neutral node and my team still can't manage to cap a single point elsewhere on the map.

    I will upload it to youtube if you or anyone else is interested in watching it.

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lol I went back in the recordings for my now-deleted twitch vods and found some really good examples of me stalemating/winning 1v3+'s all game on a neutral node and my team still can't manage to cap a single point elsewhere on the map.

    I will upload it to youtube if you or anyone else is interested in watching it.

    I'd like to see them, if only for a point of reference.

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