Please make raids 5 man - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Please make raids 5 man

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Comments

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭

    That is called dungeon. I believe many in the past once asked anet to make a "hell" mode or something along that line for the current dungeon but we all know anet decided to work on their pet projects.

    Founder & Retired Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
    Henge of Denravi
    https://discord.gg/P5dj7fd

  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2019

    I don't die open world, I said I can easily die open world in this game. I literally cannot die in other MMO's open worlds even if I go afk for 5 minutes with mobs wailing on me.

    It's very easy to die/fail in this games open world and story missions(mainly bosses), something that's nearly impossible even while AFK in other MMORPG's.

    That means this games open world and story content is the hardest on the market.

    But of course, immediately to insults and flaming from MULTIPLE people, actually hilarious tbh.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I don't die open world, I said I can easily die open world in this game. I literally cannot die in other MMO's open worlds even if I go afk for 5 minutes with mobs wailing on me.

    Now try to do the same while having the level (and gear) appropriate to the area.

    Yes, GW2 doesn't allow you to outgear content to the point where all danger disappears. It doesn't mean however that the content itself becomes harder. Only, that it always remains relevant.

    It's very easy to die/fail in this games open world and story missions(mainly bosses), something that's nearly impossible even while AFK in other MMORPG's.

    The bolded part is patently untrue. Try to play FFXIV for example.

    That means this games open world and story content is the hardest on the market.

    It would mean that only if your premise was true. Which it isn't.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Story instances must be extremly hard here when i completed first instance of hot story with starting lvl 1 gear without getting downed.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Story instances must be extremly hard here when i completed first instance of hot story with starting lvl 1 gear without getting downed.

    Considering that you don't need to fight in that instance, that's hardly surprising.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shiyo.3578 said:
    I don't die open world, I said I can easily die open world in this game. I literally cannot die in other MMO's open worlds even if I go afk for 5 minutes with mobs wailing on me.

    It's very easy to die/fail in this games open world and story missions(mainly bosses), something that's nearly impossible even while AFK in other MMORPG's.

    That means this games open world and story content is the hardest on the market.

    But of course, immediately to insults and flaming from MULTIPLE people, actually hilarious tbh.

    lol story hard, i think the only "hard" one is in hot for the migraine achievement,and even that i managed to do alone.

    i believe you were overestimating your abilities, and the game showed you otherwise

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2019

    I can think of one massive con ... it's a whole new set of content Anet would need to make. I think that right there would kill it.

    People that raid don't think there are frequent enough releases already ... how realistic is it to expect Anet to develop fracs, 10 man AND 5 man raids? Not likely IMO.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The raid participation is declining (if it is) because raid content has been scarce. Group requirements arent the issue.

  • Ultramex.1506Ultramex.1506 Member ✭✭✭

    I wish they would just give us a better Special Forces Training Area, the one we got is just dps test. Can we have a simulation room for each raid bosses?

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Story instances must be extremly hard here when i completed first instance of hot story with starting lvl 1 gear without getting downed.

    Considering that you don't need to fight in that instance, that's hardly surprising.

    You dont need to fight in any story instance since i would hardly call that fighting

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    from my POV the number of players isn't the issue but the state of LFG is.

    also not everything needs to apeal to everyone, there's nothing wrong with niche content

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Westenev.5289Westenev.5289 Member ✭✭✭✭

    shrugs Perhaps raid participation is declining because casuals like me have stubenly given up on raiding and experienced raiders are either moving on or unwilling to risk unoptimal clears with noobs because of some baby boomer 'I did it, so can you' logic.

    If you don't have a premade raid group set up or can't find a group active durring your alotted playtime, you're either sunk or forced to link fake KP to appease the PuG's. Even if you have the time, raids are intimidating as hell because salty runs are discussed more openly than 'the time we wiped 10 times at VG but had a blast regardless since everyone was so patient and fun!'

    I dunno, the feel of the raid community feels different from the rest of the game. If you mess up in dungeons, usually someone will take charge, throw a few jokes around and explain what went wrong (so long as you don't join an 80 exp idiot run). In raids, Squad leaders just lynch the weakest link, if people don't just outright chain-quit after a single failed run.

    Could this be fixed by making this 5 man content? Maybe? I mean, it should make finding an off hour casual group easier at least.

    That's my experience anyway. Your milage may vary.

  • Nekromalistik.7045Nekromalistik.7045 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    lol no, imagine the mechanics of dhuum, qadim, xera, with only 5 people xD

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    1. Remove mechanics so people can learn mechanics? This has been discussed for years now. This does not work und only acts as a tourist mode. You can't learn mechanics that are not present.

    2. No. This is one of the worst things ever happened to MMOs and one of the best things in GW2. Almost all content stays relevant the whole time. Also people don't start in easy mode when a new raid gets release. Easy mode comes weeks after the initial release. And in other groups you don't get accepted either in new raids with zero raid experience unless LFR.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    1. Remove mechanics so people can learn mechanics? This has been discussed for years now. This does not work und only acts as a tourist mode. You can't learn mechanics that are not present.

    2. No. This is one of the worst things ever happened to MMOs and one of the best things in GW2. Almost all content stays relevant the whole time. Also people don't start in easy mode when a new raid gets release. Easy mode comes weeks after the initial release. And in other groups you don't get accepted either in new raids with zero raid experience unless LFR.

    1.No remove 1 mech that makes fight harder for newcommers, eg. teleports from VG.
    2.It isn't imo, it leads to stagnation. I never played LFR. Other games I played that had seasonal of instanced content, from day 1 to 2-3 weeks after LFG was full of 'training runs'. That wasn't mean people that had no knowledge of the class they play, reasonable gear etc woudn't get kicked. That mean only one thing, lets go learn new instance.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Simple solution to increasing raid participation:
    1. Remove all enrage/auto-fail timers. This allows for much more variance in composition, reduces kick rates, and is much more in-line with GW2's design philosophy.
    2. Make the standard (non-CM) fights slightly easier. In particular, remove boss spells that apply responsibility randomly (Sabetha launch bombs, for example). Random responsibility means that 100% of the group needs to know the fight and be good. This, along with the enrage timers, are the causes of raid gate-keeping/elitism.
    3. To make up for the easier non-CM fights, make the CM versions slightly more difficult and increase their rewards somewhat (triple gold, 20% more raid currency).

    Solved.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @Westenev.5289 said:
    shrugs Perhaps raid participation is declining because casuals like me have stubenly given up on raiding and experienced raiders are either moving on or unwilling to risk unoptimal clears with noobs because of some baby boomer 'I did it, so can you' logic.

    If you don't have a premade raid group set up or can't find a group active durring your alotted playtime, you're either sunk or forced to link fake KP to appease the PuG's. Even if you have the time, raids are intimidating as hell because salty runs are discussed more openly than 'the time we wiped 10 times at VG but had a blast regardless since everyone was so patient and fun!'

    I dunno, the feel of the raid community feels different from the rest of the game. If you mess up in dungeons, usually someone will take charge, throw a few jokes around and explain what went wrong (so long as you don't join an 80 exp idiot run). In raids, Squad leaders just lynch the weakest link, if people don't just outright chain-quit after a single failed run.

    Could this be fixed by making this 5 man content? Maybe? I mean, it should make finding an off hour casual group easier at least.

    That's my experience anyway. Your milage may vary.

    Except with noobs unoptimal clears becomes no clear at all and just hours of wiping most of the time. Its not really baby boomer logic to say 'i spent a minimal amount of time to learn the mechanics and my class and i want others to do the same, so they dont waste hours of my time'. Anyone with even a semi real life outside game just doesnt have the time to become a full time raid trainer and teach every single person who joins a group, and they shouldnt have to sacrifice their own rewards every week and be forced into that. Especially since the individual can learn everything they need just from watching vids or reaching a class guide.

    Plenty of people are willing to help out train in the free time they do have available, but you have to actively look for them. Dungeons are so easy you can solo them, so even if people play awful, they can be carried through. Raids are, by design, more difficult and you need at least most of the squad to pull their weight in order to succeed. Again, this is by design and doesnt need fixing.

    As someone who has been raiding around 1 yr, I never have a problem getting into clears with my unoptimal build engie (nokit) and have never been kicked from even 500LI groups or 100kp dhuum groups for my performance. I also see groups accept people who are new to a specific boss but have read the mechanics and can play their class well. Again, even in 500LI groups. The problem is not willingness to accept newbies, but new people honestly not knowing a single thing about how their class works in a group setting, and then expecting other people to give their time explaining how to play the game to them, rather than learn themselves.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Simple solution to increasing raid participation:
    1. Remove all enrage/auto-fail timers. This allows for much more variance in composition, reduces kick rates, and is much more in-line with GW2's design philosophy.
    2. Make the standard (non-CM) fights slightly easier. In particular, remove boss spells that apply responsibility randomly (Sabetha launch bombs, for example). Random responsibility means that 100% of the group needs to know the fight and be good. This, along with the enrage timers, are the causes of raid gate-keeping/elitism.
    3. To make up for the easier non-CM fights, make the CM versions slightly more difficult and increase their rewards somewhat (triple gold, 20% more raid currency).

    Solved.

    1. Enrage timers are so generous that no one even reaches them in their kills. You can already kill bosses within timer on dozens of non meta builds and there would still be people who want safe and fast clears, regardless of timers.
    2. There's tons of trivial content in game, gw2 doesn't need more of it. It's the reason why open world events fail (TT, serpent ire), no one is expected to do anything, just mash buttons and things eventually die. Raids don't need to be like that, dungeons exist already.
    3. Improved CM rewards mean nothing if they are a one time thing.

    You didn't solve anything, you just proved how lazy, bad and greedy gw2 community is. Play 10 necros and raids will be easy to clear, the class is strong and forgiving enough to clear all content in the game. It even has enough boon+barrier uptime to not care about half mechanics.

    Just because lfg and websites promote meta builds doesn't mean that you have to join such groups and play such builds.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    1. Remove mechanics so people can learn mechanics? This has been discussed for years now. This does not work und only acts as a tourist mode. You can't learn mechanics that are not present.

    2. No. This is one of the worst things ever happened to MMOs and one of the best things in GW2. Almost all content stays relevant the whole time. Also people don't start in easy mode when a new raid gets release. Easy mode comes weeks after the initial release. And in other groups you don't get accepted either in new raids with zero raid experience unless LFR.

    1.No remove 1 mech that makes fight harder for newcommers, eg. teleports from VG.

    Who gets to decide which mechanics should get removed? Teleports on VG for example are being healed through even on the lowest skill levels. The fight would change barely with that change for example. Many mechanics unfold their challenge exactly due to their interaction.

    @phs.6089 said:
    2.It isn't imo, it leads to stagnation. I never played LFR. Other games I played that had seasonal of instanced content, from day 1 to 2-3 weeks after LFG was full of 'training runs'. That wasn't mean people that had no knowledge of the class they play, reasonable gear etc woudn't get kicked. That mean only one thing, lets go learn new instance.

    Yes, and people run those seasonal raids for the gear they bring. One they have all the gear, the participation drops again. See the problem? Beside the obvious more developers needed for more raid content?

  • @steki.1478 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Simple solution to increasing raid participation:
    1. Remove all enrage/auto-fail timers. This allows for much more variance in composition, reduces kick rates, and is much more in-line with GW2's design philosophy.
    2. Make the standard (non-CM) fights slightly easier. In particular, remove boss spells that apply responsibility randomly (Sabetha launch bombs, for example). Random responsibility means that 100% of the group needs to know the fight and be good. This, along with the enrage timers, are the causes of raid gate-keeping/elitism.
    3. To make up for the easier non-CM fights, make the CM versions slightly more difficult and increase their rewards somewhat (triple gold, 20% more raid currency).

    Solved.

    1. Enrage timers are so generous that no one even reaches them in their kills. You can already kill bosses within timer on dozens of non meta builds and there would still be people who want safe and fast clears, regardless of timers.
    2. There's tons of trivial content in game, gw2 doesn't need more of it. It's the reason why open world events fail (TT, serpent ire), no one is expected to do anything, just mash buttons and things eventually die. Raids don't need to be like that, dungeons exist already.
    3. Improved CM rewards mean nothing if they are a one time thing.

    You didn't solve anything, you just proved how lazy, bad and greedy gw2 community is. Play 10 necros and raids will be easy to clear, the class is strong and forgiving enough to clear all content in the game. It even has enough boon+barrier uptime to not care about half mechanics.

    Just because lfg and websites promote meta builds doesn't mean that you have to join such groups and play such builds.

    It seems fairly obvious that you have no interest in making raids more accessible or increasing the raid population, so I'm not sure why you're responding to me. If you'd like to give your general opinion why raids should be kept exclusive, that's great, but there's really nothing productive to be gained by arguing like this.

    1. I rarely miss an enrage timer but it does still happen. Regardless, the point is that the enrage timers dictate group composition. I wouldn't need to bring a druid and 2x Chrono every. single. fight. if DPS wasn't a concern. Additionally, the mere presence of DPS timers is going to have an effect on player mentality.
    2. You've somehow understood the point yet missed it. Correct, GW2 has tons of trivial content. It is often regarded as a "casual friendly" MMO. And so it is the wrong choice from a game design standpoint to then make raids more hardcore than several of its major competitors. You also failed to address the point about randomness.
    3. Where did I say CMs would be a one time thing? Again you seem to be formulating statements independent of anything I said, while pretending to respond to my specific points by numbering them.

    I did indeed solve the problem.

  • @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Simple solution to increasing raid participation:
    1. Remove all enrage/auto-fail timers. This allows for much more variance in composition, reduces kick rates, and is much more in-line with GW2's design philosophy.

    If you wipe due the enrage timer permenently, you have a lot of other problems. They are pretty generous with the exception of Twin Largos.

    1. Make the standard (non-CM) fights slightly easier. In particular, remove boss spells that apply responsibility randomly (Sabetha launch bombs, for example). Random responsibility means that 100% of the group needs to know the fight and be good. This, along with the enrage timers, are the causes of raid gate-keeping/elitism.

    Sabetha Bombs are NOT random, you can control them completely. They target the person that stands most west.

    1. To make up for the easier non-CM fights, make the CM versions slightly more difficult and increase their rewards somewhat (triple gold, 20% more raid currency).

    Non-CM fights are pretty doable if you actually put some effort into it. For effortless auto-attacking is always open world your friend.

    I'll briefly repeat what I said to the other person: If you have no interest in making raids more accessible or increasing raid population, then go ahead and give your reasoning, but arguing in this way is fruitless.

    And again, as with the other person, most of your statements here are not counter-arguments. Going to skip this one.

  • If you have no interest in making raids more accessible or increasing raid population

    Let's turn that around: why is it better for the game if raids are more accessible? How much raid population is enough?

    By all accounts from ANet, raid participation is much higher than they expected. By anyone's measure, Raids are meant to be the most challenging group content in the game, so by definition they are meant to be less accessible than anything else.
    And from my opinion, as someone who does not PUG and is not in a static, the only thing standing in my way is me (and my time commitment). There's no fundamental in-game barrier to my participation.

    The OP undermined their own concept several times, primarily by failing to explain why the current difficult and participation rates are a problem for raids. It's clear that not everyone likes the status quo; what's not clear is how the overall game would be better if raids were to become more like dungeons (fractal or traditional). The entire thing that makes raids interesting is that they aren't the same as the rest of the game.

    Hype is the path to the dark side. Hype leads to unfulfilled expectations. Disappointment leads to anger. Anger leads to disgust. Disgust leads to "oh, new shinies! I'm back!"

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    1. Remove mechanics so people can learn mechanics? This has been discussed for years now. This does not work und only acts as a tourist mode. You can't learn mechanics that are not present.

    2. No. This is one of the worst things ever happened to MMOs and one of the best things in GW2. Almost all content stays relevant the whole time. Also people don't start in easy mode when a new raid gets release. Easy mode comes weeks after the initial release. And in other groups you don't get accepted either in new raids with zero raid experience unless LFR.

    1.No remove 1 mech that makes fight harder for newcommers, eg. teleports from VG.

    Who gets to decide which mechanics should get removed? Teleports on VG for example are being healed through even on the lowest skill levels. The fight would change barely with that change for example. Many mechanics unfold their challenge exactly due to their interaction.

    @phs.6089 said:
    2.It isn't imo, it leads to stagnation. I never played LFR. Other games I played that had seasonal of instanced content, from day 1 to 2-3 weeks after LFG was full of 'training runs'. That wasn't mean people that had no knowledge of the class they play, reasonable gear etc woudn't get kicked. That mean only one thing, lets go learn new instance.

    Yes, and people run those seasonal raids for the gear they bring. One they have all the gear, the participation drops again. See the problem? Beside the obvious more developers needed for more raid content?

    How do you heal if someone gets telported on platforms? Who decides? Devs, that make those mech.
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.
    See the difference? Beisdes those raids and dungeons had something esle to offer but gear. It's loot from hard modes, that could bring some ingame income to those that run hard mods, instead of running in circles-killing trash mobs.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    1. Remove mechanics so people can learn mechanics? This has been discussed for years now. This does not work und only acts as a tourist mode. You can't learn mechanics that are not present.

    2. No. This is one of the worst things ever happened to MMOs and one of the best things in GW2. Almost all content stays relevant the whole time. Also people don't start in easy mode when a new raid gets release. Easy mode comes weeks after the initial release. And in other groups you don't get accepted either in new raids with zero raid experience unless LFR.

    1.No remove 1 mech that makes fight harder for newcommers, eg. teleports from VG.

    Who gets to decide which mechanics should get removed? Teleports on VG for example are being healed through even on the lowest skill levels. The fight would change barely with that change for example. Many mechanics unfold their challenge exactly due to their interaction.

    @phs.6089 said:
    2.It isn't imo, it leads to stagnation. I never played LFR. Other games I played that had seasonal of instanced content, from day 1 to 2-3 weeks after LFG was full of 'training runs'. That wasn't mean people that had no knowledge of the class they play, reasonable gear etc woudn't get kicked. That mean only one thing, lets go learn new instance.

    Yes, and people run those seasonal raids for the gear they bring. One they have all the gear, the participation drops again. See the problem? Beside the obvious more developers needed for more raid content?

    How do you heal if someone gets telported on platforms? Who decides? Devs, that make those mech.

    Simple, people learn to avoid blue or run fast enough to VG (or have a necromancer healer port them after they go down). Again, arbitrarily chosing which mechanics get removed won't work. What about the people for whom the removed mechanics were no issue? They'll come complain that they want other mechanics removed. What about the people for whom raids are still to hard (if which there will be many because quite frankly, once you understand raids, they aren't that hard to begin with)?

    @phs.6089 said:
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.

    That's bogus. People run into new raid content as high as possible for them to complete to get the new shinnies as fast as possible.

    For example in WoW:

    • Very unskilled players go into LFR to gear up (as do many normal and more advanced players since it's often the easiest and fastest way to get better gear initially, even compared to other harder content).
    • better geared and skilled players start on normal or hard and gear up on that
    • raid players start on hard and move on to mythic chasing the gear fairy

    @phs.6089 said:
    See the difference? Beisdes those raids and dungeons had something esle to offer but gear. It's loot from hard modes, that could bring some ingame income to those that run hard mods, instead of running in circles-killing trash mobs.

    Sure they offer more, most notably story in many games, something not desired here, but the main drive in every other MMO is the loot spiral. Don't kid yourself. Case in point: old raids get run only for the mounts and unique cosmetic drops and some achievements and not the gear, and the completion takes a hard dive.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    snip

    @phs.6089 said:
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.

    That's bogus. People run into new raid content as high as possible for them to complete to get the new shinnies as fast as possible.

    Isn't this true for GW2? How many have came to raids to get shiny armor and leave it forever? There are just handful enthusiast raiders(like in any other game/gamemode), rest are there/were for shinnies.
    Difference is people here don't have chose to learn on their preferred time, on easy mod, to try normal mods.
    But it's whatever.
    Back to topic: I made my decision on what to do in GW2, raids aren't GW2 specialty, i raid in other game, same reason I don't buy bread from supermarkets, I get it from bakery . You looking to raid OP, raid somewhere else.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    snip

    @phs.6089 said:
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.

    That's bogus. People run into new raid content as high as possible for them to complete to get the new shinnies as fast as possible.

    Isn't this true for GW2? How many have came to raids to get shiny armor and leave it forever? There are just handful enthusiast raiders, rest are there/were for shinnies.

    No, it's not true for GW2.

    In GW2 raid rewards are still viable 3.5, soon 4 years in. People can decide if they want to continue gathering those rewards once they have had enough or not. Unlike other games where you are forced to continue reacquiring gear.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Difference is people here don't have chose to learn on their preferred time, on easy mod, to try normal mods.

    No the difference here is people don't have to raid to get max level gear and IF they raid, their gear both from raids and not from raids does not depreciate.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    snip

    @phs.6089 said:
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.

    That's bogus. People run into new raid content as high as possible for them to complete to get the new shinnies as fast as possible.

    Isn't this true for GW2? How many have came to raids to get shiny armor and leave it forever? There are just handful enthusiast raiders, rest are there/were for shinnies.

    No, it's not true for GW2.

    In GW2 raid rewards are still viable 3.5, soon 4 years in. People can decide if they want to continue gathering those rewards once they have had enough or not. Unlike other games where you are forced to continue reacquiring gear.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Difference is people here don't have chose to learn on their preferred time, on easy mod, to try normal mods.

    No the difference here is people don't have to raid to get max level gear and IF they raid, their gear both from raids and not from raids does not depreciate.

    It's still shinnies, even viable for 4 years.
    True people don't have to raid for gear, but it wasn't the point.

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    10-man content was a mistake IMO, but now that it's here, it should stay. Devs already have little time to pull off new and somewhat unique encounters without having to go back and review the previous ones, let alone to the extent of demoting it to 5 players only.

    There are some other suggestions that I see no reason not to implement, mainly removing enrage timers outside of CMs. Enrage times are absolutely useless in the way they were implemented, they can either be struggled through by overperforming players who want to do lowman clears, or are absolutely laughable to a squad of 10 and can be done without ever worrying about them. With the potential exception of "hard enrage" timers that instantly kill the whole squad (such as Dhuum), I have no idea why "soft enrage" giving 200% more damage is a thing, other than preventing a squad of 10 healers from wasting 50 minutes of their lives killing a single boss (why would a player who can choose not to play like this purposely want to prohibit this option?).

    But really, raids are alright as they are now, and Anet probably doesn't care about it having a low population. GW2efficiency has a low % on like everything from WvW to raids, so they probably know that they are always catering to scattered players.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @steki.1478 said:
    How come raid accessibility wasnt a problem when HoT was fresh but now it's somehow a big deal?

    Of course it was a problem. Anet even admitted that (somewhere after 2nd wing release if i remember correctly). It just wasn't a problem to you.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2019

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @phs.6089 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    snip

    @phs.6089 said:
    People run those to learn first, to get gear. Yo don't learn it-no gear. Then season changes, bringing new intaced content to learn and play to get gear. This includes newcomes, thta were noobs previous seasons, have learned the class and game mech and feel it's time to get into endgame.

    That's bogus. People run into new raid content as high as possible for them to complete to get the new shinnies as fast as possible.

    Isn't this true for GW2? How many have came to raids to get shiny armor and leave it forever? There are just handful enthusiast raiders, rest are there/were for shinnies.

    No, it's not true for GW2.

    In GW2 raid rewards are still viable 3.5, soon 4 years in. People can decide if they want to continue gathering those rewards once they have had enough or not. Unlike other games where you are forced to continue reacquiring gear.

    @phs.6089 said:
    Difference is people here don't have chose to learn on their preferred time, on easy mod, to try normal mods.

    No the difference here is people don't have to raid to get max level gear and IF they raid, their gear both from raids and not from raids does not depreciate.

    It's still shinnies, even viable for 4 years.
    True people don't have to raid for gear, but it wasn't the point.

    Yeah, apples and oranges. You can't jump around wildly in meaning.

    People play Raids in other MMOs moreas by your explanation. I've explained this is due to gear primarily, you have yet to refute this (kind of hard since all metrics and play focus supports this idea). The shinnies in them will keep some interested (mostly completionists), but hardly enough to warrant further development or support of old content (and no developer does that besides absolutely mandatory game breaking bugs and exploits).

    Meanwhile current content in other MMOs only sees this much attention since it is mandatory (and/or the most efficient way to gear up). Unlike in GW2.

    The argument doesn't work. Unless you actually WANT more shinnies and stuff in raids on top of the current things which makes raids mandatory in this game.

  • maxwelgm.4315maxwelgm.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lorfi.7562 said:

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    1. I rarely miss an enrage timer but it does still happen. Regardless, the point is that the enrage timers dictate group composition. I wouldn't need to bring a druid and 2x Chrono every. single. fight. if DPS wasn't a concern. Additionally, the mere presence of DPS timers is going to have an effect on player mentality.
    2. You've somehow understood the point yet missed it. Correct, GW2 has tons of trivial content. It is often regarded as a "casual friendly" MMO. And so it is the wrong choice from a game design standpoint to then make raids more hardcore than several of its major competitors. You also failed to address the point about randomness.
    3. Where did I say CMs would be a one time thing? Again you seem to be formulating statements independent of anything I said, while pretending to respond to my specific points by numbering them.

    I did indeed solve the problem.

    you did not solve the problem, the only thing you'd get with this is every raider that's half serious would leave the game and raids would become the next PoF meta that noone does because the rewards aren't worth the effort.

    There is literally 0 reason to make raids easier, lower player count needed or anything. The only raids need is repeatable cm's once a month maybe, bit harder normal mode (w6 was WAY to easy, even the cm's were) and give a proper way to show ur exp on them and not something that can be faked because it's not fun to get a fake linker that under performs hard or causes a wipe.

    Raids aren't even hard or hard to get into, to not find a training group or discord that learn you the mechanics and will get you a kill decently fast with a moderate amount of effort you have to avoid them or be totally pampered and want to play a dps class that runs 1.5k+ toughness or super random stat combo.
    Also you fail to realize anet is actually slowly going away from super easy 11111111111111 everywhere, Bounties in PoF u gotta cc and pay attention to where you move and actually seen bounties fail because people only did random key presses.

    Why can't people just accept the fact that fractal cms and raids are the only "hard" content in the game and aren't entitled to it. I've never asked to make openworld or stories harder to please me. Both have their playerbase and both playerbases are more than enough for anet to not make any big changes to increase the popularity. If raids weren't populated enough in the eyes of anet, they'd have made an easy mode by now or quit the production completely but guess what they announced a few months ago they want to release a raid every other episode #totallydeadgamemode

    That guy is wrong but there is no need to make raids harder or introduce killproof either, precisely because "if raids weren't populated enough in the eyes of anet, they'd have made more challenging modes to attract hardcore players or quit the production completely". You contradict yourself by claiming raids are "hard" (even on quotes) but simultaneously saying that they allow for any player to do them with only moderate effort.

    Raids are fine, but the vocal people are always going to be the ones who think it's not fine (i.e praise threads are quite more rare because the satisfied people are out there playing).

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    How come raid accessibility wasnt a problem when HoT was fresh but now it's somehow a big deal?

    Of course it was a problem. Anet even admitted that (somewhere after 2nd wing release if i remember correctly). It just wasn't a problem to you.

    Well, I wanted to raid and I learned how to do it with 8 other newbies and 1 trainer (who had like 5 or less kills on each of w1 bosses and some from w2 bosses, so 20-30 kills at most).

    I'm not saying that it was particularly easy, but it's far from being inaccessible. We didn't even have dedicated rotations, training arena or a dps meter so there was no way to see how well you're performing or practice on your own. Now there's so many guides, strategies, minmaxed builds and compositions and so much powercreep compared to early HoT that you barely even have to care about some mechanics because you can dps through/outheal them with ease.

    Deso's favorite FROG
    Master of afk and kiting
    The God of Pips and Gud Deeps
    Froggo himself

  • zealex.9410zealex.9410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    New raids in gw2 do the same thing as new raids in a "seasonal game" would.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zealex.9410 said:

    @phs.6089 said:
    Imo the problem raids have in this game:
    1. No easy mod , with bit less damage or/and 1,2 boss mech removed, nerfed and reduced reward. Where people can go at own time, pug with people of same skill and learn mech.
    2. Raids aren't seasonal, vets know old raids, most of them don't have time to train new players. In seasonal games, new patch brings new instanced content and everyone is the same (new to that) go try their best to learn, starting from easy mod.

    If you ask me 5 man won't solve this, Maybe 12-14 man would? 5 men would be need to nerf so much that those bosses would became a joke, really.

    New raids in gw2 do the same thing as new raids in a "seasonal game" would.

    1 raid per half a year/year, leaving old once in stagnation

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • yusayu.3629yusayu.3629 Member ✭✭✭

    There is a huge issue in getting into raids for most players. Raids have declining participation rates that will only get lower as more and more people make these things exclusive. People are very rude and disrespectful to others in raids.

    If you can't get into raids that's pretty much on you. There are dozens of big raid-training guilds out there, communities like Crossroads Inn that do weekly training runs etc. There are also training runs in LFG literally every day (no, seriously, there were several EACH day during the last week). People are rude in raids if you join a group and fake KP after you haven't taken the time to train properly on the boss. Otherwise I've only had positive interactions with raid-training-groups.

    -More people doing them

    Not really. The content would still be as difficult as it is now.

    -As a single person,you contribute 20% to the groups performance instead of 10%

    Not everyone is equal in a raid. Also, imagine something like Deimos with just 3 people going downstairs instead of 7. Feels much more like "group content" to me with the latter.

    -Less people you have to "herd" as a leader

    That's part of the skill as a commander.

    Con's:
    -Slightly less interesting mechanics

    Multiple bosses wouldn't really work or would suck.

    There's really not many cons. The 10 man thing doesn't make raids feel more "epic" or "huge" or anything, it's just an arbitrary number that causes a much bigger barrier of entry for absolutely no reason.

    What barrier of entry?

    Also, 5-man-raids would be more toxic than what you allege the current ones are. Imagine Deimos again, 3 people spoken for (tank, bk, hk), so there's 2 dedicated DPSers left. Now, wheather this will take 10 minutes or 15 minutes is dependant on those two DPSers. You can't really pull them through as easily. While if one guy out of 7 does a bit less DPS it's a lot less noticable.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hey remember the days where 40-man raids were a thing (people allways mention "i raid in other games", right?)
    what happened to those days?

    a 5 man raid is not a raid, that would be a dungeon/fractal lol

    inbefore i'm anxious and don't want to raid with 4 other people, can you make a solo-raid mode so i can get the gear and enjoy the content i paid for

  • Still waiting for a suggestion how anet could reasonably change raids into 5 man content without recoding and redesigning every encounter. If OP can deliver proof it's possible, then we can start talking about whether it's a good idea.

    Can we close this thread? Thanks.

  • zombyturtle.5980zombyturtle.5980 Member ✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:
    hey remember the days where 40-man raids were a thing (people allways mention "i raid in other games", right?)
    what happened to those days?

    a 5 man raid is not a raid, that would be a dungeon/fractal lol

    inbefore i'm anxious and don't want to raid with 4 other people, can you make a solo-raid mode so i can get the gear and enjoy the content i paid for

    There is literally a post in general forums asking for solo raids.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:
    hey remember the days where 40-man raids were a thing (people allways mention "i raid in other games", right?)
    what happened to those days?

    Blizzard found out that those were destroying the raid community, so they decided to forget about them and concentrate on instanced content for smaller groups.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:
    Simple solution to increasing raid participation:
    1. Remove all enrage/auto-fail timers. This allows for much more variance in composition, reduces kick rates, and is much more in-line with GW2's design philosophy.
    2. Make the standard (non-CM) fights slightly easier. In particular, remove boss spells that apply responsibility randomly (Sabetha launch bombs, for example). Random responsibility means that 100% of the group needs to know the fight and be good. This, along with the enrage timers, are the causes of raid gate-keeping/elitism.
    3. To make up for the easier non-CM fights, make the CM versions slightly more difficult and increase their rewards somewhat (triple gold, 20% more raid currency).

    Solved.

    Therese is nothing random at sabetha

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    How come raid accessibility wasnt a problem when HoT was fresh but now it's somehow a big deal?

    Of course it was a problem. Anet even admitted that (somewhere after 2nd wing release if i remember correctly). It just wasn't a problem to you.

    Not it was not and ArenaNet never said anything about accessibility. They said it was a problem to release 3 raid wings in a row without LS or open world content. That's why they bound the next 3 wings to LS chapters. And they will release an open world area with the next raid. There will be no easy mode and ArenaNet doesn't want difficulty scales in raids. The effort they are making to release an additional open world part so all players get something with that release clearly shows their stance.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2019

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @steki.1478 said:
    How come raid accessibility wasnt a problem when HoT was fresh but now it's somehow a big deal?

    Of course it was a problem. Anet even admitted that (somewhere after 2nd wing release if i remember correctly). It just wasn't a problem to you.

    Not it was not and ArenaNet never said anything about accessibility.

    The lead raid designer did say that accessibility from a grouping perspective "could be better" but its not an easy problem to solve:

    @Crystal Reid.2481 said:
    Could they be more accessible from a "finding 9 other players to play with" side? Sure. That isn't always an easy problem to solve, and any solution would detract away from the team making more raid content. We'd love to get more content out to you guys faster really.

    There will be no easy mode and ArenaNet doesn't want difficulty scales in raids.

    You're right here. From the same quote:

    We won't be adding a different difficulty tier at this time. Raids need to continue to remain the most challenging content in the game, and they aren't designed to be accessible by everyone from a skill perspective.

    Discussion and post can be found here. It may be old but considering it looks like the philosophy hasnt changed; its still valid.