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Discussion about the upcoming change to Physical Supremacy


Sniper.5961

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First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

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@"Sniper.5961" said:lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Well s/d core will not be affect and I do not agree with fully however I only play wvw so I can't say. BUT I do agree 900 will better fix then 600.

Edit: Sorry forgot - "(this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta)" Yep. people are using more of the other elites now. But I think BV is mostly for pve though.

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@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Well s/d core will not be affect and I do not agree with fully however I only play wvw so I can't say. BUT I do agree 900 will better fix then 600.

i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

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@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much. 900 please, Anet! <3

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@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much.
900 please, Anet! <3

Yes but that would be a lazy change because A-net intends to make daredevil a brawler class that is the main problem and to do so they need to give it the means to do so.

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@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much.
900 please, Anet! <3

While it does impact staff users more, even thos in something like d/p get hit as they now have a much lower gap close potential. Time was you could chain the tseal with the # 3 on the set but even that combo loses some 600 total range.

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@Sniper.5961 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much.
900 please, Anet! <3

Yes but that would be a lazy change because A-net intends to make daredevil a brawler class that is the main problem and to do so they need to give it the means to do so.

I don't want to defend too much for them and rather have them explain better but "lazy change" is best for now if they do exactly what you want then there will nerfs coming after with other classes saying we are too strong. We have to exploit what strengths we are given and stay quiet about it. You heard the saying of "the nail they sticks out gets hammered"? I want to be near the spotlight of "Strong classes" but not in it.

Anyways, I don't pvp so I can't help bring better perspective. However in wvw, thiefs are strong in roaming. With this changes they will be better in one on one duals and zergs(staying alive). In those situation I dont steal to gain distance but to take boons from people.

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@Xenji.4907 said:

@Sniper.5961 said:i will clarify that i meant to nerf the range only for daredevil and not for core

Oh I see. The nerf was aimed at staff builds. They are great for mobs and now they can dual better with the sustain buff. However the trade off is reduce the range of steal to reduce the chase potential for them because it might be too much. However 600 is a bit too much.
900 please, Anet! <3

Yes but that would be a lazy change because A-net intends to make daredevil a brawler class that is the main problem and to do so they need to give it the means to do so.

I don't want to defend too much for them and rather have them explain better but "lazy change" is best for now if they do exactly what you want then there will nerfs coming after with other classes saying we are too strong. We have to exploit what strengths we are given and stay quiet about it. You heard the saying of "the nail they sticks out gets hammered"? I want to be near the spotlight of "Strong classes" but not in it.

Anyways, I don't pvp so I can't help bring better perspective. However in wvw, thiefs are strong in roaming. With this changes they will be better in one on one duals and zergs(staying alive). In those situation I dont steal to gain distance but to take boons from people.

of cause its better than nothing but it is not what they intend the class to be so there are only 2 options:Put in the effort and make the class what it sould be or dont. And do not make it half hearted like it is done now.I dont want to have another op class aswell i just dont want to have a sup par pointholder that can only dodge and use staff 1 and 3

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Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.

  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

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@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know why they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know
why
they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

Disagree on that. Was is enough/appropriate? No, probably not, because the balancing of this game is often incompetent.

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@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

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@Sniper.5961 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

Tell me what you mean, if you even mean anything. Did you forget to write?

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know
why
they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

Disagree on that. Was is enough/appropriate? No, probably not, because the balancing of this game is often incompetent.

I mean the only change that isnt a straight up, no questions asked downgrade is the steal. And even that is pretty much entirely a downgrade. Like, the only benefit to have come, out of all of this, is the fact that your steal is now unblockable. Which is as irrelevant as you can go.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know
why
they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

Disagree on that. Was is enough/appropriate? No, probably not, because the balancing of this game is often incompetent.

I mean the only change that isnt a straight up, no questions asked
downgrade
is the steal.What about havoc mastery and weakness trait? Not downgrades afaik.And even that is pretty much entirely a downgrade. Like, the only benefit to have come, out of all of this, is the fact that your steal is now unblockable. Which is as irrelevant as you can go.Unblockable steal is far from irrelevant.
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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

Tell me what you mean, if you even mean anything. Did you forget to write?

Im arguing that the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle wich they fail to do so because of the mentioned problems. Making it optional would be far from pointless because of that, id voluntarily take the trait as it is if they changed DD in a way that you can actually play it as a staff pointholder, like they want it to be played.edit: Making it optional would give the Daredevil the chance to be played as the d/p roamer that is totally fine and currently played aswell (without the unblockable part of the steal), wich is important, it was one of the few balanced builds noone was complaining about and they make it unplayable in a gamemode that is in dire need of more builddiversity.

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@"Sniper.5961" said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know
why
they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

Disagree on that. Was is enough/appropriate? No, probably not, because the balancing of this game is often incompetent.

I mean the only change that isnt a straight up, no questions asked
downgrade
is the steal.What about havoc mastery and weakness trait? Not downgrades afaik.And even that is pretty much entirely a downgrade. Like, the only benefit to have come, out of all of this, is the fact that your steal is now unblockable. Which is as irrelevant as you can go.Unblockable steal is far from irrelevant.

They are, unfortunately. Havoc Mastery is similiar to the old Staff Mastery. Except you need to be at 1 bar left, just to break even. And 0 bars to get ahead. Needless to say, that doesnt happen. And staff is the only weaponset that would want to use this skill. Remember, its in the same line as impacting disruption, a mandatory trait on D/P. The weakness trait, assuming it retains its cooldown, is 3 seconds of weakness every 10 seconds. Which is not great. But it also replaces the permanent 7% damage from havoc mastery with temporary 7%. This is actually a huge nerf. And far offsets the weakness (that is both clunky to use and also just easily shaken off or ignoreD).

It is. Ask yourself, when do you want to use steal? The answer is always "when engaging" or "when the opponent is using a skill I want to stop". Obviously new steal is awful for engaging so we can rule that out entirely (though it wouldnt help anyway, the type of classes that actively use active blocks are the ones you wont +1 on very effectively). The other one doesnt work because, well, they cant exactly be blocking and using a skill you want to stop at the same time, now can they? Of course, there is Aegis hypothetically, but you already run Bountiful Theft, which would steal the Aegis anyway. So even thats out. It truly is just irrelevant.

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@Sniper.5961 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

Tell me what you mean, if you even mean anything. Did you forget to write?

Im arguing that the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle wich they fail to do so because of the mentioned problems. Making it optional would be far from pointless because of that, id voluntarily take the trait as it is if they changed DD in a way that you can actually play it as a staff pointholder, like they want it to be played.edit: Making it optional would give the Daredevil the chance to be played as the d/p roamer that is totally fine and currently played aswell (without the unblockable part of the steal), wich is important, it was one of the few balanced builds noone was complaining about and they make it unplayable in a gamemode that is in dire need of more builddiversity.

Ah sorry your comment literally looked empty for me like forgot to write anything. In my mind you are slightly contradicting yourself when you say "the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle" but then want it to be optional, because then it isn't "forcing" by definition.

And if you read the general patchnotes (not thief section) they say that they want to give some of the elite specs a clear tradeoff, including daredevil. That is the purpose of the trait, to give daredevil a required/forced tradeoff compared to core, nothing else.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@"Sniper.5961" said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.The 2. problem is that the trait nerf (yes its a HUGE nerf not a buff the unblockable steal doesnt compensate in the slightest the huge range nerf) will not archieve the intended goal of making the daredevil a more melee focussed class what it will archieve however is to kick the daredevil out of the spvp meta and here is why:The thief was always considered to be played as a roamer with high mobility in spvp and there where a fiew ways to do so currently you have d/p dash daredevil, s/d core, rifle deadeye and my personal favorite oneshot d/p daredevil. bouth of the daredevil builds will be get kicked out of the mata because you cant use a lot of steal spots where you where able to steal before and make bouth of the other builds the superior +1 with the revenant replacing bouth of the daredevil builds because the do what the daredevil did just much better after the daredevil got nerfed. So d/p as it is will get deleted as a weaponset out of spvp. Now you could try to play the daredevil as a pointholder (wich would make the dash trait completely useless everywhere) but the staff damage just got nerfed (because of pve wich makes the dh the new DD and kicks him out of the meta aswell) and you lack generall damage to take on pointholders like boonbeast and scrapper because the class wasnt tailored to be a pointholder to be able to hold a point the thief would need more buffs tailored to buff him in a 1v1 situation without making it op.Agree mostly.

Lets discuss how a daredevil could be played as a pointholder becasue that is how he is to be played according to a-net. First of all you would need a staff evade build but the Staff 5 has a huge aftercast where you can hit the thief and he is locked in an animation so the thief will not use it much or at all wich means that you are limited to 1234 but 4 is pretty much useless in a 1v1 when you can press 3 wich has pretty much the same effect and deals more damage so you dont use that aswell, but wait skill nr 2 locks you in the animation aswell and you cant cancel it wich makes it only useable when you cc the enemy before but he can break out of it exloit the locked animation and safe hit you instead of wich makes it usually stupid to use it aswell wich leaves you to 1 and 3 and you have to jump evrytime you use 3 to cancle the dodgeroll wich is probably not really inteded so it will get nerfed when a net feels like it just as sword 2 + jump did. That makes staff a horrible duelling weapon ( to play with and unfun to play against) as it is wich means that on a high level a dadedevil pointholder will get outperformed by any decent pointholder of an other class. Wich means the daredevil is asit is out of the spvp meta.

Possible solutions:

Dont make the effect a minor trait so you can opt out of it (this would make basilisk venom not completely off meta).If the trait is not a minor it defeats the purpose of the trait. And this trait only invalidates basi venom for daredevil not for thief as a whole (I know that it is weak, what I mean is that basi venom still has value on core/de).

Overhaul the class in total in a way that you are able to duel efficiantly and in a fun way with it and still stay competitive. Changing staff skills would be a beginning and buffing their damage in pvp only but the physical skills need to get buffed and changed a lot aswell so they will be usefull and fit the theme of the intended onpoint brawler, but if this is the way we go we need to make d/p available aswell.

both of the changes above so you can play the daredevil as the roamer or as the pointholder and not make dash a trait you are never ever going to take anymore.Yeah I think this was an attempt to give thief another role than +1 roamer for the first time in 6 years, which is why d/p will be hurt by it (d/p should probably be core or deadeye in anets mind). So what remains to talk about is how to make thief viable on node.
  1. Add some sustain traits (protection etc) somewhere (maybe shadowarts rework?)
  2. Move some power from vault to staff 2-4?
  3. More?

lazy solution:

put the range to 900 like it was before it got buffed to 1200 (pls do this if you dont want to put in effort but its better than nothing)edit: for daredevil only of cause

Im playing the game since release mostly in pvp or wvw roaming and im playing a d/p daredevil since hot this change would kill much of the enjoyment for the game for me if this patch is going live unchanged i hope the devs will read this and many people wil discuss this topic in this thread

Its not an attempt to make thief good at something other than +1 and decap. They made very clear, through repeated nerfing of any build that came close to that state, that any thief build that can 1v1 anyone will be nerfed. No, this is just a straight nerf to Daredevil. I dont know
why
they wanted to nerf Daredevil, but its what they did.

Disagree on that. Was is enough/appropriate? No, probably not, because the balancing of this game is often incompetent.

I mean the only change that isnt a straight up, no questions asked
downgrade
is the steal.What about havoc mastery and weakness trait? Not downgrades afaik.And even that is pretty much entirely a downgrade. Like, the only benefit to have come, out of all of this, is the fact that your steal is now unblockable. Which is as irrelevant as you can go.Unblockable steal is far from irrelevant.

They are, unfortunately. Havoc Mastery is similiar to the old Staff Mastery. Except you need to be at 1 bar left, just to break even. And 0 bars to get ahead. Needless to say, that doesnt happen.1 bar or lower happens all the time. I 100% disagree.

And staff is the only weaponset that would want to use this skill. Remember, its in the same line as impacting disruption, a mandatory trait on D/P.PI barely does damage anymore in PvP, don't think it is completely required unlike things like bountiful and preparedness.The weakness trait, assuming it retains its cooldown, is 3 seconds of weakness every 10 seconds. Which is not great. But it also replaces the permanent 7% damage from havoc mastery with temporary 7%. This is actually a huge nerf. And far offsets the weakness (that is both clunky to use and also just easily shaken off or ignoreD).Oh, I thought the new trait was just weakness after dodge, didn't know that it will have a cooldown.

It is. Ask yourself, when do you want to use steal? The answer is always "when engaging" or "when the opponent is using a skill I want to stop". Obviously new steal is awful for engaging so we can rule that out entirely (though it wouldnt help anyway, the type of classes that actively use active blocks are the ones you wont +1 on very effectively).What? That isn't true at all, look at bunker chrono, holo, etc. Even if this were true, this new unblockable steal would literally help you counter those classes.The other one doesnt work because, well, they cant exactly be blocking and using a skill you want to stop at the same time, now can they? Of course, there is Aegis hypothetically, but you already run Bountiful Theft, which would steal the Aegis anyway. So even thats out. It truly is just irrelevant.Of course you want to interrupt blocks, that is literally some of the best skills you can interrupt in the entire game. You completely fuck over chrono bunker for example.
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This change gives daredevil a trade-off. A much needed trade-off.

I'm not against not doing this particular change, but I want EVERY specialization to have a profession mechanic trade-off, so there's always a fundamental difference between core and elite specializations.

To make their steal skill the same as core, they would have to have a different trade-off.

For example, core could have multiple 'pockets' to put stolen skills, so they'd store skills in F2, F3 and F4, and daredevil and deadeye would lose them to be 'lighter' so they can jump around and sneak better.

Whatever it is, I want a trade-off to be there, or the feel of the elite specialization will be more "Profession+" than unique.

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@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:This change gives daredevil a trade-off. A much needed trade-off.

I'm not against not doing this particular change, but I want EVERY specialization to have a profession mechanic trade-off, so there's always a fundamental difference between core and elite specializations.

To make their steal skill the same as core, they would have to have a different trade-off.

For example, core could have multiple 'pockets' to put stolen skills, so they'd store skills in F2, F3 and F4, and daredevil and deadeye would lose them to be 'lighter' so they can jump around and sneak better.

Whatever it is, I want a trade-off to be there, or the feel of the elite specialization will be more "Profession+" than unique.

trade 600 range for unblockable.......

bountiful theft....basilisk....situational awareness

traded for NOTHING

I want to TRADE for something else, not a short hand steal. SOmething unique and sensible for Daredevil. Deadeye has it's own "stolen skills".....

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@Quadox.7834 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

Tell me what you mean, if you even mean anything. Did you forget to write?

Im arguing that the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle wich they fail to do so because of the mentioned problems. Making it optional would be far from pointless because of that, id voluntarily take the trait as it is if they changed DD in a way that you can actually play it as a staff pointholder, like they want it to be played.edit: Making it optional would give the Daredevil the chance to be played as the d/p roamer that is totally fine and currently played aswell (without the unblockable part of the steal), wich is important, it was one of the few balanced builds noone was complaining about and they make it unplayable in a gamemode that is in dire need of more builddiversity.

Ah sorry your comment literally looked empty for me like forgot to write anything. In my mind you are slightly contradicting yourself when you say "the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle" but then want it to be optional, because then it isn't "forcing" by definition.

And if you read the general patchnotes (not thief section) they say that they want to give some of the elite specs a clear tradeoff, including daredevil. That is the purpose of the trait, to give daredevil a
required/forced
tradeoff compared to core, nothing else.

You are right but the tradeoff is ment for the daredevil as a pointholder, wich is totally fine, because the pointholder is gaining a lot of the unblockable steal. If you want to play the daredevil however as a d/p roamer the tradeoff would be to not have an unblockable steal but 1200 range insteadoff. The daredevil is not a "better Thief" as it is. If it would be you would play s/d (wich is currently meta in spvp) with daredevil traitline, but you dont, because the traitoff of losing the acrobatic trailine compared to the daredevil one while wielding a sword is to big, so there you have the tradeoff. Making the trait optional would mean a healty addition to the gamemode because now you have 1 more viable build wich is a staff pointholder thief in addition to d/p DD, s/d core and rifle DE.

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@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:This change gives daredevil a trade-off. A much needed trade-off.

I'm not against not doing this particular change, but I want EVERY specialization to have a profession mechanic trade-off, so there's always a fundamental difference between core and elite specializations.

To make their steal skill the same as core, they would have to have a different trade-off.

For example, core could have multiple 'pockets' to put stolen skills, so they'd store skills in F2, F3 and F4, and daredevil and deadeye would lose them to be 'lighter' so they can jump around and sneak better.

Whatever it is, I want a trade-off to be there, or the feel of the elite specialization will be more "Profession+" than unique.

Yeah I think they will probably add tradeoffs to every class that lacks it, but not this patch. Core mes might get f5 for example, we'll see.

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@"MithranArkanere.8957" said:This change gives daredevil a trade-off. A much needed trade-off.

I'm not against not doing this particular change, but I want EVERY specialization to have a profession mechanic trade-off, so there's always a fundamental difference between core and elite specializations.

To make their steal skill the same as core, they would have to have a different trade-off.

For example, core could have multiple 'pockets' to put stolen skills, so they'd store skills in F2, F3 and F4, and daredevil and deadeye would lose them to be 'lighter' so they can jump around and sneak better.

Whatever it is, I want a trade-off to be there, or the feel of the elite specialization will be more "Profession+" than unique.

As i mentioned you have the tradeoff by not being able to take another traitline like acrobatics instead of DD. Infact the tradeoff of taking DD over acro is so big, that the meta for the thief is to play core s/d, no tradeoff needed here its already balanced d/p DD is absolutely balanced and a lot of people would even say sub par to s/d core. The only tradeoff that would be justifyable would be if you made steal unblockable for a NEW pointholder/duelist type of build.

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@Sniper.5961 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:Not a thief main but here is my amateur thoughts:

@Sniper.5961 said:First of all im german so my english is sloppy im writing here to get more attention and possible attention from devs because i think this is important.I think a net is posting the patchnotes early so we can discuss them before they are released and im gratefull for that. So im going to give my oppinion on the change of the minor traitline Physical Supremacy. this is the change im talking about: Physical Supremacy: This trait now causes Steal to become Swipe, which reduces the range from 1,200 to 600 and makes the attack unblockable.

The 1. problem with that is that its a minor trait you are going to get that effect as soon as you take the daredevil traitline so you are not able to opt out of it.This is clearly a change tailored to spvp (because wvw roaming is not going to be a concern in balance patches) and as far as i can see it the thought process behind it is that you give the class the benefit of the unblockable steal (wich kills basilisc venom completely) and the tradeoff of the range ( nerfing it from 1.2k to 0.6k so halving the range) because a-net wants to have the thief as a melee focussed class.That's not a problem, that's the point of the trait. If it was optional it would be pointless.

it is not the point of the trait it adds the unblockable steal so if they make the class as a brawler playable id voluntarily take the tradeoff

Tell me what you mean, if you even mean anything. Did you forget to write?

Im arguing that the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle wich they fail to do so because of the mentioned problems. Making it optional would be far from pointless because of that, id voluntarily take the trait as it is if they changed DD in a way that you can actually play it as a staff pointholder, like they want it to be played.edit: Making it optional would give the Daredevil the chance to be played as the d/p roamer that is totally fine and currently played aswell (without the unblockable part of the steal), wich is important, it was one of the few balanced builds noone was complaining about and they make it unplayable in a gamemode that is in dire need of more builddiversity.

Ah sorry your comment literally looked empty for me like forgot to write anything. In my mind you are slightly contradicting yourself when you say "the point of the trait is to make DD into a Brawler type class and not nerfing the class but forcing it into a diffrent kind of playstyle" but then want it to be optional, because then it isn't "forcing" by definition.

And if you read the general patchnotes (not thief section) they say that they want to give some of the elite specs a clear tradeoff, including daredevil. That is the purpose of the trait, to give daredevil a
required/forced
tradeoff compared to core, nothing else.

You are right but the tradeoff is ment for the daredevil as a pointholder, wich is totally fine, because the pointholder is gaining a lot of the unblockable steal. If you want to play the daredevil however as a d/p roamer the tradeoff would be to not have an unblockable steal but 1200 range insteadoff. The daredevil is not a "better Thief" as it is. If it would be you would play s/d (wich is currently meta in spvp) with daredevil traitline, but you dont, because the traitoff of losing the acrobatic trailine compared to the daredevil one while wielding a sword is to big, so there you have the tradeoff. Making the trait optional would mean a healty addition to the gamemode because now you have 1 more viable build wich is a staff pointholder thief in addition to d/p DD, s/d core and rifle DE.

Yeah that's a fair argument. I think they just felt like adding clear tradeoffs to the e-specs that lack it, even though daredevil didn't really need it. This patch we got rev+thief+druid+berserker, I guess they will look at chrono+scrapper+spellbreaker+soulbeast next (maybe I forgot some).

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