Chronomancer Tradeoff Brainstorm

Well, in some upcoming update chronomancer will probably get some concrete tradeoff as berserker, druid, daredevil, rev will on tuesday (?).

Ideas/thoughts/suggestions in this thread.

Example points of discussion:

Situation 1: Core Mesmer buff

• New F5 skill
• Stat buff
• ?

Situation 2: Chrono drawback

• Stat nerf, e.g. reduced phantasm damage
• Replacing distortion with continuum split
• Change to shatters (akin to DD steal change)
• Reduced clone cap
• ?

Csplit (imo, the only mechanical ‘addition’ to the mes by taking chrono) has a 105s CD, uses resources (clones) to activate/empower and has a some (maybe not enough?) counterplay, so while I do expect some tradeoff, I would expect it be either of Situation 1, or not to have any super-significant drawbacks.

Comparatively, Chronophantasma mechanically changes the mesmer quite significantly and would be the thing to brainstorm tradeoffs for (i.e. clone generation or something); however it’s not a minor, and tradeoffs can’t be justified because of said trait unless anet moves it (and if they do, to replace what, and why?)

I agree, Chono was quite largely balanced around CS to begin with and I think the first place to start is a total rework of Chronophantasma.This is followed by a nerf to Lost Time and possibly a reduction in the amount of protection produced from the shield phantasm.

However, chronophantasma is the main thing left that really stands out.

I think that CS produced from the trait line is fine without obvious, apparent drawbacks as long as OVERALL the trait line is fine. In such a situation, you would basically be giving up 'stronger' or 'potentially stronger' traits in the chrono trait line relative to other trait lines in order to get the extra CS shatter effect. It doesn't mean you wouldn't be giving something up. It just means what you are giving up isn't immediately apparent. I think this is the best way of handling the situation at the momment.

I feel situation 2 and Distortion being replaced by CS is most likely.

What do you think about replacing distortion by cont. split for chrono and reducing the cooldown of cont. split?

I cant really think of a way to give Chrono a tradeoff without destroying the synergy its supposed to have with core skills/traits.So I'd say add an F5 to Core Mes too, just like how they added a new f-skill to Core Revenant.Alternatively, give Core Mesmers shatters some additional effects, similar to how Master of Fragmentation works?

@Quadox.7834 said:What do you think about replacing distortion by cont. split for chrono and reducing the cooldown of cont. split?

I don't think they should ever touch the CS CD. If Distortion was replaced by CS it would make sense to have them on the same CD. But it would potentially also require way more balancing. And this could get very ugly...

I have always wanted redesigned shatter skills, for both elite specs. Some people might argue that redesign isn't a tradeoff but it's essentially what necro got with Reaper. Damage output was traded for Survival and Range.

Two fitting ways of redesigning shatters could be:

• Chrono places PBAoE that scales off destroyed clones. This way we would lose instant speed, range and burst for more damage per second and potentially area denial effects.
• Mirage destroyes clones and deliveres a melee attack that scales off destroyed clones. This way we'd trade range and instant speed for power and possibly utility.

If however core mesmer got a buff that is taken once we chose to play an elite spec I'd love it to be phantasm and clone generation.

Ideas for core mesmer f5:

1. Clone/phantasm retarget (with no cooldown, same as ranger pet retarget)
2. Unblockable (either 1 attack per clone, or maybe 1 second per clone)
3. Resistance per clone
4. Stealth per clone
5. Mobility (how?)
6. Move portal to f5 (and revert the nerf)
7. Superspeed
8. Summon clone at target -> shatter it to swap location (two-part skill)
9. Reveal
10. Boonstrip (maybe it would clash with shattered concentration)

Core (unless you play insp) lacks condition removal and mobility compared to chrono/mirage. But maybe that is fine if core has more utility (e.g. reveal, unblockables etc).

The issue with Chrono as a whole isn't CS, it's the obviously stronger than every other trait Chronophantasma. It will take a rework sensitive enough to not destroy power Chrono and to offer interesting choices.

@Lunateric.3708 said:The issue with Chrono as a whole isn't CS, it's the obviously stronger than every other trait Chronophantasma. It will take a rework sensitive enough to not destroy power Chrono and to offer interesting choices.

That's my problem with this trait as well. (in pve) It's essentially a 100% boost for all phantasm skills. Which outscales any other traitline by far.

@Lunateric.3708 said:The issue with Chrono as a whole isn't CS, it's the obviously stronger than every other trait Chronophantasma. It will take a rework sensitive enough to not destroy power Chrono and to offer interesting choices.

True that CS is a big part of it but even without it chrono (or mirage) is always better than core.

Yet reworking chronophantasm isn't the topic here, it's about some kind of mechanic profession trade-off when using chronomancer rather than core. So, even if the trait were removed altogether, there still would be a need for a mechanic tradeoff (since this is a newly defined design goal stated by anet).

I understand that there needs to be tradeoffs. However, there is just such a big difference between core mesmer and the elite specs to begin with. Realistically, you would want core mesmer to have a niche or be good at something due to synergy between 3 of the core trait lines or through a class mechanic that you would have to give up in order to be specialized in chronomancer (meant or designed as a support spec). However, what niche does core mesmer have to begin with? What is core mesmer good at? It is literally not good at anything and not even close to competitively viable. Even if you made it so CS replaces distortion when you select chronomancer, no one in hell is going to choose core over chronomancer for anything. Distortion by itself does not make core mesmer viable and wouldn't even be enough of a differential to make it viable or balance around in the future if this was the case.

My thoughts are first to nerf the damage potential of the chronomancer trait line, especially chronophantasma.Second would be to add another shatter that is only available if you select 3 core mesmer trait lines (not available if you select mirage)This new shatter would have an effect that makes up for the damage potential lost from the nerfs to the chronomancer trait line. Therefore, if you wanted to play something like a sustained damage PvE build, you would be better off choosing core mesmer than chronomancer or mirage. Mirage in PvE should be focused on condi.

I don't think overall this is unrealistic balancing at all. However, the problem comes in where if anyone finds out mesmer got a new shatter skill (even if its only available through pure core) they are going to complain like crazy because they will not understand the larger picture . . .and its mesmer.

Realistically and pragmatically, if there was the correct type of synergy between 3 of the core trait lines, this alone would create the trade off. If you want the players to have to make meaningful decisions and give something up (like the ability to do more sustained damage), this could be done without changing the shatters at all.

Saying a shatter has to be replaced is just a scapegoat because ya, you would give up a shatter for chronomancer. However, realistically, it wouldn't be a meaningful sacrifice. It would just be a sacrifice that is easy for people who read the patch notes to get their heads around and understand since they are both shatter skills. Making a sacrifice doesn't necessarily mean that is has to be a core mechanic. Having it be a core mechanic just makes it easier for others to understand what is given up. That is literally the only difference.

Example: Lets say that you made it so when you select the chronomancer trait line, distortion is replaced by CS.Lets then say that 'Time Marches On' now additionally gives you the ability for your shatters to give you distortion.

Ya, you can technically say that you are giving up a shatter. However, just because you are giving up a shatter doesn't mean you are making a meaningful decision or necessarily giving something up in the 'grand scheme of things'

Giving up something in the 'grand scheme of things' and making a meaningful decision in your trait line choices is what really matters in the first place.Not that there needs to be a shatter that is replaced. Saying a shatter needs to be replaced shouldn't be the main concern.

Suggestion: current core mesmer elites are said to be currently balanced around CS, being able to used twice by chrono. Buff core mes elites/nerf them when chrono is taken; either way have elites weaker when taking chrono somehow.

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Suggestion: current core mesmer elites are said to be currently balanced around CS, being able to used twice by chrono. Buff core mes elites/nerf them when chrono is taken; either way have elites weaker when taking chrono somehow.

Maybe increase the cooldown of elite skills for Chrono by ~100%-150%? You can still cast them every 105 seconds with CS, but you're heavily punished if you use them outside of CS, so you're mostly forced to wait out the 105sec CD for elite skills, even for elite skills that would normally have a lower CD. Like say the new Mass Invi (60s).Or just straight up make it so you can only cast elite skills in CS as Chrono. It would be a unique detriment to playing Chrono and that way you could also equalize the elite skills for Core Mes, Mirage and future Especs (if it ever happens) again, without all of them being pulled down cause of Chronos doublecast.

However, like Xstein said, if their goal is to make all 3 specs equally viable, adding a detriment to Chrono is probably not the solution there. Instead give Core Mesmer something that makes it more viable.

First thing ww need to decide is what role should core mesmer have.Right now its a spec that is not good at anything (in pve at least). Especialy after phantasm changes.I think mirage is supposed to be condition dps focused on evasion. Chrono is supposed to be support so i think core should be burtsty power dps?If so maybe increse number of clones to 5?And/or add f5 that transform all your clones to phantasms?Or shatter f5 that shatter all your clones, reset your shatters based on number of clones used (0-f1, 1-f1+f2....) and for some time all your other shatters count as having used that number of clones f5 shattered.Also i would buff phantasm damage

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:First thing ww need to decide is what role should core mesmer have.Right now its a spec that is not good at anything (in pve at least). Especialy after phantasm changes.I think mirage is supposed to be condition dps focused on evasion. Chrono is supposed to be support so i think core should be burtsty power dps?If so maybe increse number of clones to 5?And/or add f5 that transform all your clones to phantasms?Or shatter f5 that shatter all your clones, reset your shatters based on number of clones used (0-f1, 1-f1+f2....) and for some time all your other shatters count as having used that number of clones f5 shattered.Also i would buff phantasm damage

That is not easy because chrono does everything better than core, especially burst.

@Takashiro.8701 said:

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:Suggestion: current core mesmer elites are said to be currently balanced around CS, being able to used twice by chrono. Buff core mes elites/nerf them when chrono is taken; either way have elites weaker when taking chrono somehow.

For viability, I can’t contribute any pvp specific ideas or information since I don’t play that mode. However, for PvE, I do believe that the two specs (core and chrono, mirage not sure) can be brought closer together by Xstein’s idea of core traitline tradeoff; the metaphorical jewel of the chrono traitline for dps/damage is Chronophantasma, a trait that improves damage over a period of time, while everything else should be fairly insignificant/random QoL features (e.g. 25% movespeed bonus, superspeed clones, alacrity, etc) or traits more dedicated to support. Therefore it would make sense for core mes with all three damage-dedicated traitlines to hit harder than chrono on a per hit basis, being similar to pDPS warrior specs in terms of damage distribution (no real burst but does meaty hits) compared to chrono who has a ‘burst’ but has to rely on stacking smaller hits using Csplit and Chronophantasma. pChrono is inherently bad at dealing with trash mobs efficiently and short boss phasing, of which core mes can be designed to cover more effectively.

Same thing could apply for Lost Time and defensive oriented builds, chrono has a singular appealing feature (trait/access to shield) of which you’d have to drop a core traitline and slog through a number of niche traits that may or may not complement the build.

Edit: As a PvEr, I think chronophantasma is not or is as much of a problem as Danger Time, a trait that’s practically a 20%+ dmg increase due to the crit chance% bonus that should exist somewhere on core. Even worse, dps chronos who take this trait contribute nothing or very little to the slow uptime, i.e. it’s a trait that the chrono doesn’t even manage themselves. No one seems to have benched a non DT chrono, but I suspect it sits around the 30-31k mark (compared to the DT variants that sit around 35-37k) Core mes apparently sat at around 25k at some point, but I would imagine it would’ve dropped to about 24k.

Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:[...]

For me:

• Chrono = Power, (nerfed) Support and Phantasms
• Mirage = Condi, Trickster (Evades) and Clones

Two things baseline could be (made) better at than those two which fits the class:

• Boon removal (heavily underutilzed since launch)
• Stealth

Problem: We already got Shattered Concentration and a "free" Stealth-Shatter (F5) might be too much. I still feel that CS replacing Diversion is the most likely scenario. It's not very exciting and won't make baseline Mesmer better at anything. But it's the easy way out for ANet.

@flog.3485 said:Maybe chrono should just loose the ability to use shatters without having any clone up ?

That would be aweful gameplay-wise. However... they could nerf Shatter-damage by 20% :#

Maybe I should just shut my mouth sometimes. :s

If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

@"Takashiro.8701" said:If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

Chrono wasn't designed to be a power spec in the first place either. It wasn't designed to be a damage spec.

Additionally (above), IMO no one is going to want you in a raid or even a higher fractal if all you can do is remove boons and provide stability. I think the real specializations are things like condi dps, power dps, and support. Tank could also be another specialization except in this game they tend to lump it with support.Additionally, the devs claim they have a weak triangle with 'control'. However, regardless of what the devs claim, 'control' isn't a specialization in this game as it is not always needed and tends to be spread between dps and support instead of being in its own category.

PvP is a little different: potential categories include condi, power, tank, lockdown, burst, and sustain. There could be more I am not thinking of and these categories can kinda blend together. Out of these categories, lockdown is the only one that hasn't seen a specialization in PvP in a long time. I'm not even sure if it should be its own category as like mentioned above with PvE, tends to be spread between different other specializations instead.

@"Takashiro.8701" said:If we're talking about replacing a shatter, why Diversion/Distortion and not Cry of Frustration? Since thats the condi shatter and Chrono is the power spec anyway with Mirage being the condi one? Both Diversion and Distortion are a vital part of all Mesmer Specs, having their respective use on all of them but F2 on Chrono is a bit more "just a bonus shatter" if F1 is on CD. If we're wanting to replace any shatters that should be the one imo.

You are right that this point in time F2 is less useful for Chronomancers than F4. But that's not the point. Continuum Split is very powerful and has a high CD. Also when thinking about traits, effects on F4 are more suited for working with CS. Due to this F4 a more reasonable trade-off than F4.

In the end there is no point in implementing a trade off when said trade off is meaningless to begin with.