Make Swipe 900 Range

So like pretty much everyone I was shocked to see that Steal was changed when using DD to swipe after 3 years of HoT being out. Which that in and of itself is just odd. I understand why it was done(to keep consistent with the theme of steal changing based on elite spec), but 50% of the range makes DrD pretty much not worth taking. In turn since DrD is not great to take means S/D Core will be pretty much the only viable build as D/P with this change if it stays, and feedback to give it 900 range at least is ignored will be dead.

I think it is fair to give swipe 900 range. I base this on the fact is actually makes sense on a numbers basis.

Deadeye's Mark - 1,500 RangeSteal - 1,200 RangeSwipe - 900 Range

If you feel 900 range is still to far for an unblockable attack, well that is just silly but feel free to give us something else because as I said steal being blockable wasn't an issue.

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 Could we have an open dialogue about this please?

Agree. OR another option is maybe cut the cool down by half too! OR thief gets full or 6 initiative back for the swipe! Just throwing out ideas xD.

Edit: Yeah 600 won't be enough because we being jamming that button hoping it will active.

I agree with the OP on this thread. 600 range is overkill and 900 range is more reasonable.

(I personally don't think they should touch it at all, but I think ANet will be more likely to listen if the Thief playerbase can all agree to one suggestion).

EDIT: I've been playing D/P Daredevil in PvP for literal years. Over those years, seeing the announcement of a new patch has gone from exciting to exhausting because it rarely bodes well for the class. QoL changes are the obvious exception and are pretty much the only reason I'm still playing (I'm more likely to change games than change mains). Slowly but surely the class has been pushed from very threatening in good hands to possibly a concern in the right comp. I don't want to see the Daredevil buffed to ludicrous places to the point where it is flavor of the month; I just want to be a solid pick without it being overbearing. Seeing the changes to the Daredevil traitline and how it all interacts with eachother had me really excited and revitalized my hope for the class. All of the traitline changes looked very well thought out to me and it seemed like it would open up more options for the Daredevil without being too much of a buff. I can't tell you how much kudos I want to give to the devs that came up with it. Then seeing the change to Swipe makes me think that none of the changes will matter because that amount of loss in range with so little in return will effectively kill the Daredevil in any PvP environment despite the changes.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/894357#Comment_894357

For the life of me I do not see how a d/d daredevil build can do anything with the new swipe.

Spreading this around as I posted in the Balance notes thread . . .

Here's my question:

With this update, we are adding a trade-off to the profession skill that keeps the theme of a melee-oriented specialization.

How does removing a Daredevil's ability to use steal to close a long gap help us melee in any way?

If Anet wants us to melee they should be giving us more abilities to stick to a target not less. The range drop would be appropriate if we were getting something useful towards that end. Unblockable isn't it.

Maybe something like:

Physical Supremacy: This trait changes Steal to Hitched, which tethers the target to the thief and gives the thief a stolen skill and X seconds of X% base damage reduction. Toughness improves total reduction. Neither can leave 600 range of each other for X seconds. Stunbreaks used by either the thief or it's target will break the link. If either party attempts to use a skill to get out of range that is not a stun break it results in a knockdown and puts that skill on cooldown + X seconds. Stability applied after Hitched is engaged counters certain effects of Hitched but does not remove it - That means an attempted non-stunbreak maneuver to get out of range won't give the knockdown but the target still can't leave range. Stability applied before would prevent it of course.

It would work a lot like Guardian's Ring of Warding while allowing some counterplay for the target and helping the thief to be toe to toe for the duration. Most importantly it offers significant risk/reward choices in its use. Which is all I want.

And if you wanted to make it really sexy and give thief a GvG/WvW group perk, let it affect targets in an AOE. Would force the thief to use discretion on its use in small scale and be great for locking down targets for bombs.

@"dDuff.3860" said:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/894357#Comment_894357

I mean this is my main point. S/D has been the top build without DrD, and now definitely will be. Staff will be the new meme deadeye. D/P is done. I personally hate S/Ds playstyle so you are spot on with saying it is probably just time for another break. Which is sad.

@babazhook.6805 said:For the life of me I do not see how a d/d daredevil build can do anything with the new swipe.

D/D IMHO just needs a complete redo as a weapon set.

@Xenji.4907 said:Agree. OR another option is maybe cut the cool down by half too! OR thief gets full or 6 initiative back for the swipe! Just throwing out ideas xD.

Edit: Yeah 600 won't be enough because we being jamming that button hoping it will active.

Honestly I would rather it hand initiative back so that we can maybe toy with not taking trickery.

@Exitus.3297 said:I agree with the OP on this thread. 600 range is overkill and 900 range is more reasonable.

(I personally don't think they should touch it at all, but I think ANet will be more likely to listen if the Thief playerbase can all agree to one suggestion).

EDIT: I've been playing D/P Daredevil in PvP for literal years. Over those years, seeing the announcement of a new patch has gone from exciting to exhausting because it rarely bodes well for the class. QoL changes are the obvious exception and are pretty much the only reason I'm still playing (I'm more likely to change games than change mains). Slowly but surely the class has been pushed from very threatening in good hands to possibly a concern in the right comp. I don't want to see the Daredevil buffed to ludicrous places to the point where it is flavor of the month; I just want to be a solid pick without it being overbearing. Seeing the changes to the Daredevil traitline and how it all interacts with eachother had me really excited and revitalized my hope for the class. All of the traitline changes looked very well thought out to me and it seemed like it would open up more options for the Daredevil without being too much of a buff. I can't tell you how much kudos I want to give to the devs that came up with it. Then seeing the change to Swipe makes me think that none of the changes will matter because that amount of loss in range with so little in return will effectively kill the Daredevil in any PvP environment despite the changes.

This is my sentiment exactly. I was like oh okay cool we are gonna have a bit more survivability attacks add weakness and decrease damage helping us duel a bit. Then saw the swipe change and just shook my head. Mostly because they decide to change it now after over 3 years.

why not write this in one of the many other threads.

all in all i'd like to see swipe in action before suggesting rebalances

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

I would argue doing it based on that is misinformed as deadeye was designed to be ranged so it makes sense to not give it steal. DrD was design to just be a change to melee thief. Also thematically I would expect a Daredevil to actually have more range on a steal.

@derd.6413 said:why not write this in one of the many other threads.

all in all i'd like to see swipe in action before suggesting rebalances

I wanted to keep this one agnostic of the other changes so this change could be discussed by itself. I only saw a thread about the changes as a whole. But also to keep this discussion overall getting buried which usually anything does on these forums.

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

i can answer that for you: the reason they changed steal on daredevil is because it's "espec mechanic" (the 3 modifiable dodges) has no trade-off.

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

I mean if that was the case it is stupid because the only viable build for thief was S/D Core last season which didn't even use DrD. So they reduce range for an extra dodge as the tradeoff which only affects D/P which used DrD and dash which already had a trade off? That is bad logic.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

probably because this was more of a design change to especs in general rather then a balance change to thief.

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

Still a silly change after 3 years to make IMHO.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

i think this trade-off thing should've been there from the start in all especs.

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

Ideally yes it should have been. I agree with that completely.

i can answer that for you: the reason they changed steal on daredevil is because it's "espec mechanic" (the 3 modifiable dodges) has no trade-off.

If you play Daredevil, you have to renounce to an other spec: usually Shadow arts (with D/D and D/P) or Acrobatics (with S/D).. that's the trade-off!

If you "rework" Daredevil in something that is the same as before, but you change 1200 range Steal with 600 range Swipe you are only nerfing daredevil. So call it with the right term.

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

Eh, it does though. The fact that you have to pick one of the 3 dodges, all of which come with downside(s). Dash being the most obvious, but even the others interact poorly with stealth and stuff like Full Counter. The downsides are minor, but the upsides are just as minor. Now you get a minor upside for crippling downside.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

you don't have too tho, just leave the traits empty

@derd.6413 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 @"Irenio CalmonHuang.2048" So it seems the consensus not only in this thread but others I have skimmed is that this change will essentially make S/D the only go to weapon set for thief. Could we at least know you're reasoning for changing steal after 3 years on DrD? Was it to keep with the thematics added in PoF with deadeye having its own steal replacement.

Then the downside is that you picked a traitline with only 2 traits. Thats still a huge downside. And yknow, clearly it worked. Daredevil only outclassed core thief in PvE (where all core builds are outclassed by specializations). In PvP and WvW, DD was inferior to core thief as is, and a sidegrade at best. Now its just unplayable outside of PvE (and I would be shocked if it sees much play in PvE either).

Gutting a thief's gap closer when trying to make the spec more melee focused is the most moronic thing I have heard in a while. They should have made it 1500 without unblockable and make the core thief steal unblockable. Then those pew-pew rangers and the like would see more melee which if I am not mistaken is the entire point of their change.

@Straegen.2938 said:Gutting a thief's gap closer when trying to make the spec more melee focused is the most moronic thing I have heard in a while. They should have made it 1500 without unblockable and make the core thief steal unblockable. Then those pew-pew rangers and the like would see more melee which if I am not mistaken is the entire point of their change.

No that's OP in their mind but soulbeast 100-0 most classes with rapid fire and one or two auto's from a safe distance is ok,sic em dps modifier is ok,scrapper sustains ok,holo''s high sustain high dps is ok,fb's boon spam is ok and scourge in wvw is ok lmao game is literally a joke now.