The reasons Berserker fails

Here are the problems I see with the current Berserker espec. It's concept is clear; a DPS heavy, long duration burst mode for warrior.

1. You are losing traits in a practical sense when you are not in berserker mode. Every minor trait is only of benefit to berserker mode. In my opinion, this is an unacceptable situation because for the trait system to work properly (i.e., give players meaningful choices), all the lines need to have some equivalence. Berserker falls WAY short of that (to be clear, it always did, but it's worse now).
2. The risk/reward profile of this espec is out to lunch. In core warrior and to some extent SB, I have 3 fully effective traitlines and a burst at 3 levels at my disposal while maximizing at 30 adrenaline. In berserker, I'm effectively missing all minor traits while non-berserker and can't burst until at maximum adrenaline FOR THE SAME maximum 30 adrenaline cost as non-berserker specs. Even worse, if you miss or are interrupted while bursting, you continue to miss out berserker mode, your minor traits and you lose your 30 adrenaline. I believe this leads to a severe inbalance in the berserker spec with respect to the other warrior specs
3. The flavour of the mode is reduced to a single attack. Conceptually I can see why it makes more sense that an attack initiates berserker but in practice, if I'm going to spend 30 adrenaline on a high risk attack, there should always be some kind of meaningful result to the player. "SORRY, TRY AGAIN" is underwhelming. no value gameplay and considering the cost and inbalance in risk/reward for the espec, unacceptable.

TLDR: Berserker traitline only partially effective, Berserker mechanics lack equivalence to warrior/SB, All-or-Nothing Berserker mode trigger.

I hope Anet can reconsider this rework after watching your post. You got all the point.

I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

Yet again another example as to why sPvP balance is a disgusting nightmare. Its all predicated on "What can you do inside the tiny Capture Objective?" and then thats how the builds are made. Its exactly why people think Rampage is so "strong" and "OP" because in the condensed space of those capture points it can and will pummel you into the dirt.

The moment you take it into a much more open area...? Garbage. Rampage is a predictable Elite and just able to be easily kited out or avoided. Scourge, despite all of its AoE strengths that it had in the past, could get easily kited and slaughtered. The same is true for Berserker. Strong when the fish swim in the barrel...but if those fish grow legs, and brains, and walk out of the barrel they beat your head in with that fishing pole you got.

@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

Rampage is very strong, don't get me wrong. But, it's also very easy to deal with IF you manage your cooldowns properly in a fight.

I've been kited a lot in duels today while running a/sh gs. It's a little annoying, but it's pretty difficult to stop me from just running at you in a straight line until I eventually catch up. Berserker is incredibly tanky and does a boatload of damage.

Maybe it would be better to run sword for the extra mobility/immob. But, it's been pretty fun so far so I don't see what everyone's complaining about. I'm not even a warrior main if that matters at all.

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

Share build pls cuz ppl sneeze on me i die

Ofc if i sneeze on ppl they die too but hey

@Sorem.9157 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vJAQNAneRnMdAlkiVhAeeAEliltAD5vFACdvb2Q7pVJGU6GAA-jpBHQB5rMQAfAAA4QA0sTAwH2fwAHBAA

You can use Shield Master over Dogged March and/or Frenzy instead of Berserker Stance. Personal preferences.

The only reason why berserker "MAY" be performing well in PvP/WvW yesterday is because its the first day of patch. When people realize the the following limitations, we will see how truly bad these changes are.

1. No burst skills available when not glowing red. So no adrenal health, no high damage arcing slice....nothing.
2. The opener is going to be a headbutt most of the time in order to generate enough adrenaline to enter berserk so will be easily anticipated.
3. Entering berserk mode has a cast time so CC the warrior to prevent it.
4. You still need to use stances so not much room on utility bar for the "berserk mode extending" rage skills. (except for outrage)

If I had to change Berserker I would give them a permanently full adrenaline bar, but once it's activated we lose adrenaline per second even while in combat. Berserk stays active as long as we have adrenaline, using a burst skill gives a flat increase in duration because it would otherwise turn it off.

MMakes sense, right? As long as we have "rage" we go berserk. So we stay in combat

@"Spartacus.3192" said:The only reason why berserker "MAY" be performing well in PvP/WvW yesterday is because its the first day of patch. When people realize the the following limitations, we will see how truly bad these changes are.

1. No burst skills available when not glowing red. So no adrenal health, no high damage arcing slice....nothing.
2. The opener is going to be a headbutt most of the time in order to generate enough adrenaline to enter berserk so will be easily anticipated.
3. Entering berserk mode has a cast time so CC the warrior to prevent it.
4. You still need to use stances so not much room on utility bar for the "berserk mode extending" rage skills. (except for outrage)

and the warrior is still melee and is glass when in berserk mode, like just burst/kill him lol. Most classes have a range advantage or can just use (broken) instant cast abilities to burst the berserker without a chance for him to react.

I don't have a problem with being glass in berserker mode ... that's one of the core things it should do. With the right combination of traits and skills you get the stability and stun breaks you need to apply your damage. The problem is when you aren't in berserker mode, it's like playing a crippled warrior; the main issues aren't about performance, it's about feel and play. There are so few actions available to a warrior (the fewest in the game in fact) that they can't afford for traits to 'turn off', the trigger for the 'ON' to be linked only to a burst attack and the cost to have these 'benefits' the same as core warrior that doesn't have these drawbacks. Anet has to do better on this espec.

@Obtena.7952 said:I don't have a problem with being glass in berserker mode ... that's one of the core things it should do. With the right combination of traits and skills you get the stability and stun breaks you need to apply your damage. The problem is when you aren't in berserker mode, it's like playing a crippled warrior; the main issues aren't about performance, it's about feel and play. There are so few actions available to a warrior (the fewest in the game in fact) that they can't afford for traits to 'turn off', the trigger for the 'ON' to be linked only to a burst attack and the cost to have these 'benefits' the same as core warrior that doesn't have these drawbacks. Anet has to do better on this espec.

for once i can completely agree with obtena.when not in berserker mode it just feels completely inferior to core and spbits not fun. and easily outplayed, just kite when warrior enters berserk, and then watch him struggle to apply ANY meaningful dmg.

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

what elo are you playing in ? pretty much all warrior builds will melt when attacked by 2-3 ppl who know what they are doing.

also, why rune of earth ? you have like 0 protection on warrior, and the 6th effect has 60 seconds cd.check out rune of resistance, its basically perfect for berserker as defensive rune option.it gives toughness, lowered condi uptime on you, and with a low af 20s 6th effect, that gives 4 seconds of resistance everytime you use headbutt (25s cd)getting them with headbutt means that you will most likely turn berserk right after and are immune to blinds and weakness while you dish out your initial burst in berserk mode due to the resistance

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

@"melandru.3876" said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Video is great and you can dish decent damage, but this kind of footage really hurt the discussion because (from what I'm seeing, correct me if I'm wrong) your build works just fine for a certain niche of activities. How do you deal with conditions? or knockdowns? or if you have to start dodging, or getting out of AOE and you loose that rotation... you are back again to useless core warrior without F1. Hitting a dummy says little to nothing about how fun a class is.

Other warriors come here and says "Berseker is fine cause you have to do A, B and C" and that is the perfect reason why it is NOT fine. No class should have 1 way of playing it or be useless.

@"Blocki.4931" said:If I had to change Berserker I would give them a permanently full adrenaline bar, but once it's activated we lose adrenaline per second even while in combat. Berserk stays active as long as we have adrenaline, using a burst skill gives a flat increase in duration because it would otherwise turn it off.

MMakes sense, right? As long as we have "rage" we go berserk. So we stay in combat

that's interesting. so adren gain things would be to extend the duration instead of initiating it.

squishy power burst build for warrior would never work for pvp tho...people go burst you and teleport away you can't do anything and with telegraphed attacks its easily dodgeable. why would a team want burst warrior when they have classes with higher mobility and blinks or stealth for reliable take downs or to avoid aggro...only role warrior can fill is side node fighter/tanker with the mechanics it has.btw you can just range poke berserk and fight it after berserk runs out and you would be fighting a warrior with only 2 trait line...

anyway savage instinct's feel no pain should be 1 sec invulnerability .

@Mesket.5728 said:

@"melandru.3876" said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

every dps test is done on a "golem dummy"

what you say for warrior, counts for every other build out there so i fail to see your pointunless only the warrior has to move, and the others can stand on their spot your point somehow fell in the water

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Of course, all classes has to, but Berserker looses its specialization if it does. You can't maintain attacks and you are back to useless for 12 long seconds.

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

if you are focuing on trying to stay in berserk, you also lose dps

just threat it the same as reaper, find the healthy balance of being in and out, and focus on that

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

This isn't really about losing DPS, even though that's what many people would complain about ... it's about missing out on a significant number of traits. A trait line that is only active part of the time because of some mode you are in is deficient and lacking. This is a problem on Warrior especially, given that it's the class with the least number of actions.

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

I don't care about dps. I care about having fun with the class. I'm not. This change was particularly bad from a game design point of view. Just that. My adrenaline sitting there for 12 seconds for nothing agrees (and all the extra adrenaline generated during those 12 secs).

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

Except Warrior's sustain is built around landing burst skills. Even when using a Magebane Strength/Discipline/Spellbreaker build on Spellbreaker you still need to land your burst skills and it has access to them outside of any sort of "mode".

I feel like your talk of "damage and DPS" is more related to PvE. Many people are talking about how Berserker is a crap shoot in PvP. Sure the damage can be intense but those are just numbers "on paper" so to speak. In actual use in PvP it feels clunky, like it is missing something and you feel punished for not being in Berserk Mode which you will be out of for a majority of a fight, on top of players just kiting out or avoiding anything for the duration of Berserk Mode itself.

Also its not the same as Reaper, or Core Necro for that matter. To enter Shroud or Reaper's Shroud you only need at least 10% Life Force filled in the bar. That is not the case for Berserker and Berserk mode. You need the full 3 bars of Adrenaline and once you use Berserk Mode you are locked into it with no way of exiting out to put the skill onto cooldown should someone begin to kite you.

You can't find that "healthy balance of being in and out" because of everything keeping you from doing so. Not just from needing 3 full bars of Adrenaline but also that you can't end the skill yourself to put it onto cooldown sooner. Do you not know how Shroud works? Or other "mode" skills for that matter?

Warrior is built around its burst skills and this rework for Berserker has gated them all behind a clunky skill with poor implementation.

Considering that one can't use adrenaline while berserk is in cooldown, and that said lapse is 12 seconds, there's no way a warrior won't have the adrenaline by the time it's up. Unless they get interrupted and lose all adrenaline, which would be awful.

Possible improvements:Give level 1 burst access while out of berserk mode (like spellbeaker)Reduce cooldown so that the real cost to return to burst mode is in filling the adrenaline (burst CD reduction traits could work here, too).Or make it so no adrenaline is lost when berserk mode is interrupted.

Though, knowing anet, they may instead buff up berserk mode enough that either the warrior manages to activate it and wins, or they don't and die.

@RedShark.9548 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:I don't understand why so many people are disappointed with the berserker changes.

After a few hours of quing + 1v1s, the spec seems incredibly strong.

1. I'm consistently doing 30-40% of my team's damage and healing per match.
2. I can facetank 2-3 people with the amount of stunbreaks/raw stats/stability warrior has access to.
3. The new gs f1 is completely shredding through everyone's health.
4. I can essentially run at someone nonstop while attacking.

I'm in Plat 3.

I chose Rune of Earth for the extra toughness and incoming healing. In terms of healing, you have Healing Signet, Adrenal Health, and Regeneration (boon) with the build I linked. Overall, together with RoE + Dead or Alive, you heal for over 1k health per second. Also, you receive 15% more healing from your Firebrand in teamfights which is always helpful.

However, Rune of Resistance is probably better so I'll check it out. Although the build I linked is fairly tanky against conditions, having the extra resistance sounds very helpful (both offensively and defensively). Thank you!

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

@Mesket.5728 said:

@melandru.3876 said:

32.5k dps isn't that bad really, and the build can be further optimized and the rotation needs to be ironed out

i'm sure the build can go up to 33k which is decent

God forbid you have to play around cooldowns on warrior, it seems your point is basically "it's not fun because it has a downtime and that's a bad design". No, it's not. Having no downtime on an increased dmg burst class would be ridiculous.

Also melandru seems to be the only one that made an effort to show his dps tests which can be helpful to other people that cried about spec being useless, because they can't pass 25k or w/e (I won't check the exact number from other threads) and you say it's "irrelevant"? :D Holy shit.