Tempest in PvP — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Tempest in PvP

BlazinFyre.2410BlazinFyre.2410 Member ✭✭
edited April 26, 2019 in Elementalist

For the last while, Ele has been in the state of "good but largely overshadowed" in almost every build it has. More specifically, I believe Tempest to be a decent support in PvP but it just pales in comparison to a Firebrand. I think the main buff to tempest would be nerfing Firebrand as its too dominant in every aspect of support, but I'm here to talk about Tempest. These are just some of my ideas to bring it up to par as a support option, I'll just go through all aspects of tempest and give my thoughts! (as a side note, if you're wondering who this random is and why do they think they're smart enough to give suggestions on all this: I played tempest in the gw2 Pro league and have been playing this game since launch :smile: )

Overloads:
I feel overloads are mostly good, if theres anything to take issue with, it'd be the 4 second cast time and the identity of fire overload.

  • A 4 second cast time is a huge commitment, especially when you have to trait for the stability. I don't necessarily think this needs to change but I think lowering the casts to 3 seconds would be nice.
  • As for fire overload, I feel it is the most useless for all intents and purposes. Water overload is useful for large healing, air overload is great for cleaving in team fights and downs, and earth overload gives stability and a lot of protection for damage mitigation. Fire overload is good for some damage but i feel in almost every circumstance, air overloading is better. Perhaps increasing the AoE slightly and increasing how much might it pulses, while reducing its damage, could be a change. This way it isn't competing with air overload for damage and instead is used as a way to buff party damage.

Shouts:
I think all the shouts are in a pretty decent spot, feels the burn is a bit underwhelming.

  • Feel the burn could receive a buff to its raw damage or an increase to how many burns it applies, to give tempests a more offensive shout. Another idea is to maybe implement ammo for it.

Traits:
Here lies my main suggestions for Tempest. I feel like some restructuring needs to be done. The adept traits are mostly fine but master and grandmaster could use some help.

  • Speedy Conduit is really, really underwhelming as a trait. I think it would be nice to merge this trait into Lucid Singularity so that LS removes movement impeding conditions AND makes you go faster (with swiftness or superspeed). I think then Lucid Singularity would be deserving of a GM spot.
  • From a PvP perspective, if you aren't taking Elemental Bastion, you're just trolling. Elemental Bastion is so core to any tempest build, its just crazy you have to trait for it. I think an accurate comparison would be if you had to take a GM trait on chrono to get alacrity on shatter, or if you had to take a trait on scourge so that punishment skills converted boons. If you merge speedy conduit and lucid singularity together, you leave a minor trait slot in which you can put Elemental Bastion. Note that it would just be the aura healing part, the passive can be removed.
  • Now that we have a GM slot open, I think moving Harmonious Conduit there and buffing it to apply its stability in an AoE to allies as well (keep as 1 stack or up to 2). This would help tempest compete with Firebrand as to the boons it can provide. The damage modifier on the trait could move to another more dps oriented trait or it could stay and even apply to allies as a support option.
  • Imbued Melodies is a strange trait to have as a GM, I don't exactly get its purpose. I think moving it down to the master tier and changing the flat 300 concentration to 120 base and extra 120 while wielding a warhorn would be a nice change.
  • I realize Tempestuous Aria is not an sPvP focused trait, but that doesn't mean the sPvP version cant be changed to make it useful. It would be interesting if the might stacks were buffed up to ~4 stacks. EDIT: credits to jeffies for this suggestion, giving this added condi clear would be nice. it also lets tempests choose between this and invigorating torrents besed on matchup without having both
  • Unstable Conduit is good, but it would be interesting if it was made to apply the aura to an AoE, so you could have access to allied shocking aura without taking powerful auras.
  • Now after all these changes theres a slot left for a new GM trait. Tempest doesn't currently have many options for offensive builds so I think it would be interesting if a new damage focused GM trait was added. (comment ideas!)

tl;dr of trait changes:
- elemental bastion as a minor trait in place of speedy conduit
- Master traits are Tempestuous Aria, Invigoration Torrents, and adjusted Imbued Melodies
- Grandmaster traits are Lucid Singularity with added superspeed or swiftness, Harmonious Conduit but now AoE, and a new offensive trait to expand options for tempest builds

Warhorn:
I see warhorn as being the support option for an offhand. If you want damage, you take dagger. If you want survivability, you take focus. So the main goal would be to move warhorn into a more supportive direction. A lot of changes are to speed up casts so that warhorn can have more reactive play.

  • Lower the cooldown of heat sync
  • Potentially have wildfire pulse might to allies standing in it, this way its easier to get value off of heat sync
  • remove the delay from the cast of Tidal Surge to when it goes off
  • Maybe give an effect for when water globe ends. (AoE Healing, or regen, or vigor, etc)
  • make cyclone pull the entire area at the same time instead of a sweeping pull
  • lightning orb right now is pretty strange to have on a support weapon, maybe change it to be a lightning field as well?
  • speed up how fast the sandstorms from dust storm come out.

Thanks for reading all my suggestions and comment any ideas you have! I'm really open to discussion as I enjoy all elementalist builds and want to see it do well :smiley:
Edit: obviously i'm biased towards making it good so also voice dissenting options

Comments

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2019

    Tempest can't compete (in Atm or for rank +100) cause:
    In ranked if you make just tinny mistake (playing whatever tempest build) vs high power burst oriented build - you die
    in ranked in teamfight if you f*** up your positioning, pressed to slow obsidian flesh/mist form button while burst oriented power build +1 you - your dead
    In AT when two power burst oriented ex-proleauge dudes gank you - you explode - the end
    You can't say same thing for FB that easily. Because of Firebrand all thiefs went sw/d core cause d/p daredevil COULDN'T +1 IT!
    Tempest sustain wasn't even a thing when it was meta must have in all comps in proleauge/ATms during HoT.

    Yet tempest was run in PoF ATm and it was only possible cause it was babysited BY FIREBRAND. So for sake for making tempest playable in competitive tournament you need kick out something like scourge...or 1v1oner...or +1oner...just to make it possible for our healbot to breathe...and ad extra only support oriented build to your comp.

    After saying all this I still like your ideas but if firebrands selfsustain won't drop or tempest went up - our healbot stays as ranked only build.

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 24, 2019

    I agree, Feel the Burn needs a buff. Maybe 3 burn stacks instead of 1. For all game modes btw.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • @Mr Godlike.6098 said:
    Tempest can't compete (in Atm or for rank +100) cause:
    In ranked if you make just tinny mistake (playing whatever tempest build) vs high power burst oriented build - you die
    in ranked in teamfight if you f*** up your positioning, pressed to slow obsidian flesh/mist form button while burst oriented power build +1 you - your dead
    In AT when two power burst oriented ex-proleauge dudes gank you - you explode - the end
    You can't say same thing for FB that easily. Because of Firebrand all thiefs went sw/d core cause d/p daredevil COULDN'T +1 IT!
    Tempest sustain wasn't even a thing when it was meta must have in all comps in proleauge/ATms during HoT.

    Yet tempest was run in PoF ATm and it was only possible cause it was babysited BY FIREBRAND. So for sake for making tempest playable in competitive tournament you need kick out something like scourge...or 1v1oner...or +1oner...just to make it possible for our healbot to breathe...and ad extra only support oriented build to your comp.

    After saying all this I still like your ideas but if firebrands selfsustain won't drop or tempest went up - our healbot stays as ranked only build.

    I agree that it's hard to live as a tempest when being focused. To be fair, against good players its hard to live as a firebrand as well. Thats just the support life after they deleted cleric's amulet. I would actually argue that its more difficult for a firebrand sometimes as tempest can have both obsidian flesh and stone heart. While stone heart requires you to camp earth when focused, it can really provide your team with the time needed to peel for you. Also not to mention d/f has shocking aura which is a really good self peel, as well as for teammates if you take powerful auras. With the changes I proposed, having stab from overloads or lucid singularity can help a lot with kiting when focused.
    I think it's also important to note that a support being able to be burst down is probably a good thing. Back when cleric's existed, tempest was a hard to kill bunker that required 2+ people to take down and really slowed down the pace of the game. Builds like that aren't healthy which is why I don't think tempest needs too much extra defense and instead FB should just be brought down to its level.

    Just for reference to those reading I'm going to attach two tempest builds that are probably the best to run, I prefer the dagger/focus build:
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQJAodn0XCVYiNYCGYCcYilNAb4BEAugu71/6hlYFcBqAA-jJxHABKfCAA4BAoz+DyXGAA
    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vFAQFAWn0XCVYiNYCGYCcYiFWAz9q2VLrEJgDQAoYD0AqAA-jJxHABKfBAA4BAIfZgf2fAA
    (I have a build that uses fire line for condi clear bouncing around my head but thats TBD)

  • @Dahir.4158 said:
    I agree, Feel the Burn needs a buff. Maybe 3 burn stacks instead of 1. For all game modes btw.

    I get the feel you just want it for a condi ele build lel

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭

    @Andromeda.8293 said:

    @Dahir.4158 said:
    I agree, Feel the Burn needs a buff. Maybe 3 burn stacks instead of 1. For all game modes btw.

    I get the feel you just want it for a condi ele build lel

    Nothing wrong with that :trollface:

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    @BlazinFyre.2410 said:
    For the last while, Ele has been in the state of "good but largely overshadowed" in almost every build it has. More specifically, I believe Tempest to be a decent support in PvP but it just pales in comparison to a Firebrand. I think the main buff to tempest would be nerfing Firebrand as its too dominant in every aspect of support, but I'm here to talk about Tempest. These are just some of my ideas to bring it up to par as a support option, I'll just go through all aspects of tempest and give my thoughts! (as a side note, if you're wondering who this random is and why do they think they're smart enough to give suggestions on all this: I played tempest in the gw2 Pro league and have been playing this game since launch :smile: )

    Overloads:
    I feel overloads are mostly good, if theres anything to take issue with, it'd be the 4 second cast time and the identity of fire overload.

    • A 4 second cast time is a huge commitment, especially when you have to trait for the stability. I don't necessarily think this needs to change but I think lowering the casts to 3 seconds would be nice.
    • As for fire overload, I feel it is the most useless for all intents and purposes. Water overload is useful for large healing, air overload is great for cleaving in team fights and downs, and earth overload gives stability and a lot of protection for damage mitigation. Fire overload is good for some damage but i feel in almost every circumstance, air overloading is better. Perhaps increasing the AoE slightly and increasing how much might it pulses, while reducing its damage, could be a change. This way it isn't competing with air overload for damage and instead is used as a way to buff party damage.

    Shouts:
    I think all the shouts are in a pretty decent spot, feels the burn is a bit underwhelming.

    • Feel the burn could receive a buff to its raw damage or an increase to how many burns it applies, to give tempests a more offensive shout. Another idea is to maybe implement ammo for it.

    Traits:
    Here lies my main suggestions for Tempest. I feel like some restructuring needs to be done. The adept traits are mostly fine but master and grandmaster could use some help.

    • Speedy Conduit is really, really underwhelming as a trait. I think it would be nice to merge this trait into Lucid Singularity so that LS removes movement impeding conditions AND makes you go faster (with swiftness or superspeed). I think then Lucid Singularity would be deserving of a GM spot.
    • From a PvP perspective, if you aren't taking Elemental Bastion, you're just trolling. Elemental Bastion is so core to any tempest build, its just crazy you have to trait for it. I think an accurate comparison would be if you had to take a GM trait on chrono to get alacrity on shatter, or if you had to take a trait on scourge so that punishment skills converted boons. If you merge speedy conduit and lucid singularity together, you leave a minor trait slot in which you can put Elemental Bastion. Note that it would just be the aura healing part, the passive can be removed.
    • Now that we have a GM slot open, I think moving Harmonious Conduit there and buffing it to apply its stability in an AoE to allies as well (keep as 1 stack or up to 2). This would help tempest compete with Firebrand as to the boons it can provide. The damage modifier on the trait could move to another more dps oriented trait or it could stay and even apply to allies as a support option.
    • Imbued Melodies is a strange trait to have as a GM, I don't exactly get its purpose. I think moving it down to the master tier and changing the flat 300 concentration to 120 base and extra 120 while wielding a warhorn would be a nice change.
    • I realize Tempestuous Aria is not an sPvP focused trait, but that doesn't mean the sPvP version cant be changed to make it useful. It would be interesting if the might stacks were buffed up to ~4 stacks.
    • Unstable Conduit is good, but it would be interesting if it was made to apply the aura to an AoE, so you could have access to allied shocking aura without taking powerful auras.
    • Now after all these changes theres a slot left for a new GM trait. Tempest doesn't currently have many options for offensive builds so I think it would be interesting if a new damage focused GM trait was added. (comment ideas!)

    tl;dr of trait changes:
    - elemental bastion as a minor trait in place of speedy conduit
    - Master traits are Tempestuous Aria, Invigoration Torrents, and adjusted Imbued Melodies
    - Grandmaster traits are Lucid Singularity with added superspeed or swiftness, Harmonious Conduit but now AoE, and a new offensive trait to expand options for tempest builds

    Warhorn:
    I see warhorn as being the support option for an offhand. If you want damage, you take dagger. If you want survivability, you take focus. So the main goal would be to move warhorn into a more supportive direction. A lot of changes are to speed up casts so that warhorn can have more reactive play.

    • Lower the cooldown of heat sync
    • Potentially have wildfire pulse might to allies standing in it, this way its easier to get value off of heat sync
    • remove the delay from the cast of Tidal Surge to when it goes off
    • Maybe give an effect for when water globe ends. (AoE Healing, or regen, or vigor, etc)
    • make cyclone pull the entire area at the same time instead of a sweeping pull
    • lightning orb right now is pretty strange to have on a support weapon, maybe change it to be a lightning field as well?
    • speed up how fast the sandstorms from dust storm come out.

    Thanks for reading all my suggestions and comment any ideas you have! I'm really open to discussion as I enjoy all elementalist builds and want to see it do well :smiley:
    Edit: obviously i'm biased towards making it good so also voice dissenting options

    I would go for charges on Feel the Burn, than more burning stacks. My problem with Tempest, is how you run out of moves pretty quickly unlike mantras and tomes that have lots of charges to prevent that. So 2 charges with 2s interval between re-using would be good.

    I always thought of Overload Fire as Primordial Stance but at a somehow larger radius, still channeling though.

    I like the trait line changes, same for warhorn skills.

    Also, no need to mention skill level, we having a discussion, give and take, so it's really fine. :smiley:

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Vallun.2071Vallun.2071 Member ✭✭✭

    definitely good ideas though I don't agree with the power creep ideas, freeing up some of the choices with the making of elemental bastion baseline would also make tempest dps builds a bit more sustainable and viable while tempest already has decent trade offs.

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2019

    After some thought I got this idea for new GM trait in your vision:
    How about similar idea like Scoruge Sand Savant trait that basically gives an option for different variant of elite spec main mechanic. In case of Tempests that would be

    ,,You can now overload without charging"

    My thinking is like this: in pvp in 1v1 we rarely have opportunity to finish overload charge animation and this goes even worse in teamfights where random cc's are all over the place. In healbots builds way more important for us are stunbrakes and Unstable Conduit proc. With this change we would spend less time in ,,dangerous atuments" and would actually benefit from waiting in one atument and risking being caught defenseless. In my eyes from very start punting long charging animation on low health pool class is not drawback but design flaw. Tempest is the only elite spec in game that is openly discouraged from using it's main mechanic in pvp,

    This would have few drawbacks, much less protection stacking and we lose all stability from earth overload. Tempest would also lose tons node pressure if we didn't have must have elemental bastion as ,,optional trait" and one extra GM Trait (in place of useless Lucid Singularity) for just damage oriented builds...I think many ele's would be happy.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    @Mr Godlike.6098 said:

    After some thought I got this idea for new GM trait in your vision:
    How about similar idea like Scoruge Sand Savant trait that basically gives an option for different variant of elite spec main mechanic. In case of Tempests that would be

    ,,You can now overload without charging"

    My thinking is like this: in pvp in 1v1 we rarely have opportunity to finish overload charge animation and this goes even worse in teamfights where random cc's are all over the place. In healbots builds way more important for us are stunbrakes and Unstable Conduit proc. With this change we would spend less time in ,,dangerous atuments" and would actually benefit from waiting in one atument and risking being caught defenseless. In my eyes from very start punting long charging animation on low health pool class is not drawback but design flaw. Tempest is the only elite spec in game that is openly discouraged from using it's main mechanic in pvp,

    This would have few drawbacks, much less protection stacking and we lose all stability from earth overload. Tempest would also lose tons node pressure if we didn't have must have elemental bastion as ,,optional trait" and one extra GM Trait (in place of useless Lucid Singularity) for just damage oriented builds...I think many ele's would be happy.

    I don't quite understand, but here are 2 ways of what I caught.

    If the the Overload drops right away at a button press, I believe this will be broken, Air Overload and Fresh Air will literally annihilate the tankiest class you can ever imagine, or Water Overload will heal like crazy in no time, etc. This would make the spec's mechanic with no counters, so no for this if that's the point.

    The other way of understanding is that the skill would work just like it does now, but without channeling, so no interruption, which would give time for the opponent to consider running away. I would've said a somehow yes for this, but if there was a GM trait that is actually worth the trade. Like in WvW, you get the choice of either Tempestuous Aria or Invigorating Torrents, both are good, but you've got to choose depending on the situation. Elemental Bastion would look like a joke imho.

    Maybe buff up the Stability on Harmonious Conduit, or make a stack or 2 of it already built in the Overload, which would require 2 CC abilities than one, although in PvP, I guess one stack is fine already in 1v1s. I think they can add a Tenacity trait, with which all incoming CC duration is decreased by X%, or by how many boons are affecting you.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • Mr Godlike.6098Mr Godlike.6098 Member ✭✭✭

    For clarification - without channeling. And I would argue if this would be broken - staying too long in one atument is already good argument to not overload at all...especially now after PoF power creep.

  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    Feel the Burn!; Even the 3 mights ... for 10sec, 25sec cd ... come on Anet, let elem stacks might better than that.

  • Engal.6359Engal.6359 Member ✭✭✭

    It's more an issue of FB power creep than of tempest being bad. "Everything else is OP, so let's just buff it instead of fixing anything" is anet logic.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Engal.6359 said:
    It's more an issue of FB power creep than of tempest being bad. "Everything else is OP, so let's just buff it instead of fixing anything" is anet logic.

    As we can tell at this point anet dose not want to deal with the backlash of balancing op classes. So the best bet IS to make all classes op. All of this is pointless as there are no anet devs in ele corner there no one at anet fighting for ele balancing just random updates and ideal that i bet are old ideal from the former ele dev.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    Overloads also need to give at least 3 stacks of stability in additon to dmg/heal buffs. Also I think the aura that an overload gives should be begin with the overload itself, not after. Warhorn should see some love too, it can be a really good weapon yet some of its skills are left behind after PoF release.

    And I don't know which one of you kicked an anet employee's tushie with an elementalist but please go and apologize. Maybe their hatred for ele would diminish with that and then we can see some good buffs.

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