"Swipe" is NOT a tradeoff - it's a hard nerf

What the dev's were going for is good idea on paper but I have no idea how they botched it so badly.

Swipe in it's current state is a hard nerf, not a tradeoff. Maybe if they made the next attack following swipe unlockable too then it would be okay but it's just too little.

People have mentioned valid points too. 1) unblockable is not even hard to come by for dare devils. Their dagger pistol 3 was unblockable. They use basilisk venom for unblockable. And the demand for unblockable attacks from a class (that is supposed to be an assassin type that picks and times its moments to deliver devastating attacks) is low.

If you think about it, revenant jalis teleport is basically swipe on steroids. 1200 range and makes next few attacks unblockable. What exactly did daredevils trade off?

It seems like a huge oversight in pvp om the devs part. I played core sd thief for most part anyway, and am currently maining rev but was hugely looking forward to picking up power dagger dagger daredevil for my next stint... not anymore...

Revenant Jalis teleport? I think you mean Phase Traversal, which is a Shiro skill. Why do you people always say others have to learn to play your profession to deal with it, but can't even properly identify other professions skills? Kind of makes this change seem well deserved...

the trade off is better dodging for a worse steal, not less range for unblock able steal

Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

@derd.6413 said:the trade off is better dodging for a worse steal, not less range for unblock able steal

The dodges already have trade offs, and thief already has built in trade off by either front loading stealth by using initiative or keeping initiative and losing out on stealth. Thief already had 3 dodges with acro before HoT so it was never an issue.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:the trade off is better dodging for a worse steal, not less range for unblock able steal

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:the trade off is better dodging for a worse steal, not less range for unblock able steal

It is actually all relevant. You can't make changes based off of "No trade offs." when thief probably has the most trade offs already baked into it at its core. Initiative itself is a tradeoff that we have to sacrifice something else at any given time.

If we need to +1 far we have to SB5 over and engage with little to no initiative. If we need to help a close +1 then we have to expend initiative for stealth to pre load our burst(on D/P) which means we have no initiative left to quickly move to another point unless we burn dodges or shadow step to cut some distance.

Thief is literally all trade off where you sacrifice one way or the other. You trade damage for mobility or vice versa.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@derd.6413 said:the trade off is better dodging for a worse steal, not less range for unblock able steal

it's irrelelvant because we're discussing trade-offs between core and daredevil(an espec) not initiative (core thief) and stealth/mobility/damage/etc. (also all core thief).

Except initiative is a global mechanic across all the specs which makes it relevant. And all weapon sets are usable by elite specs which means stealth/mobility/damage are all relevant to it as well. If elite specs locked you into those weapons then maybe you would have some ground to stand on but that isn't the case. I can pick deadeye and choose not to go rifle at all and go D/D and SB still.

If that build began to be decent in sPvP, what would Anet do then? They would have to alter the deadeye spec traits and deadeyes mark which affects rifle due to core weapon sets?

You can't ignore core mechanics just because you are trying to change an elite spec. The changes affect everything.

I am going to assume development in any way shape or form isn't your career like it is mine, but when adding new features to a website or a piece of software it is usually best to keep them agnostic of old features as it can become a mess. Whether the new features make old ones harder to maintain or straight overshadow older features. Which is the case anet ran into.

They introduced a variable(elite specs) but didn't keep them agnostic of the core. So now you have a jumbled mess where something on paper to them(changing steal to swipe and giving it 600 range) seems to make sense but in turn deleted D/P from viability.

Anet doesn't look into what effects changes can have which is development 101. Which is why changes should be tested before being launched. Just implementing something without thorough testing would get me canned in no time. So actually I am surprised the balance team even still has jobs after the layoffs.

@omgdracula.6345 said:Except initiative is a global mechanic across all the specs which makes it relevant. And all weapon sets are usable by elite specs which means stealth/mobility/damage are all relevant to it as well. If elite specs locked you into those weapons then maybe you would have some ground to stand on but that isn't the case. I can pick deadeye and choose not to go rifle at all and go D/D and SB still.

If that build began to be decent in sPvP, what would Anet do then? They would have to alter the deadeye spec traits and deadeyes mark which affects rifle due to core weapon sets?

You can't ignore core mechanics just because you are trying to change an elite spec. The changes affect everything.

I am going to assume development in any way shape or form isn't your career like it is mine, but when adding new features to a website or a piece of software it is usually best to keep them agnostic of old features as it can become a mess. Whether the new features make old ones harder to maintain or straight overshadow older features. Which is the case anet ran into.

They introduced a variable(elite specs) but didn't keep them agnostic of the core. So now you have a jumbled mess where something on paper to them(changing steal to swipe and giving it 600 range) seems to make sense but in turn deleted D/P from viability.

Anet doesn't look into what effects changes can have which is development 101. Which is why changes should be tested before being launched. Just implementing something without thorough testing would get me canned in no time. So actually I am surprised the balance team even still has jobs after the layoffs.

Hopefully for them the higher ups at ncsoft dont frequent the gw2 forums lately.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

There plenty of reasons why one would want an unblockble steal and being able to take daggerstrom over BV for that unblockable steal is one of them. Unblockable steal is a good thing.

The 600 range is another story.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

TBH Daggerstorm is so loaded it is worth taking it over BV anyways.

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

Well I do not see a heck of a lot of thieves that still use BV but I can assure you when I was on my staff build last night a rather LIKED that unblockable steal. It made my steals much more useful. The problem is I do not think that added usefulness to steal makes up for the steal range loss. I never did get around to my dagger/dagger build and am not sure how taht guy going to be able to engage unless he goes back to core.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

IIRC though. Isn't aegis usually the first boon to get stripped from steal anyways? So really the unblockable is only useful against channeled blocks is it not?

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

I depends what you traited your steals to do and it depends if you took BT as well. I tend to like the trickster trait , just as example. It makes daggerstrom even better and fleshes out condition cleanses making deicated ones less needed. I can now bust through an aegis with trickster.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

Yea exactly. So really the unblockable is just good for channeled ones for the most part. Which you can just wait out anyways. For 600 range nerf I just don't think it is worth it. Personally.

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

Interrupting channeled blocks. Now you are able to do that while being able to pick DS or IS instead of BV. That's quite a positive use.

@Turk.5460 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

Any thief player will know that interrupting channeled blocks isn't that important. Steal is primarily used to land backstabs from a range in pvp situations... like 90% of the time that's its use. Whether its blinding powder HS bs steal combo or cloak and dagger steal backstab combo... we hardly ever needed a demand to be able to interrupt blocks. Maybe 1 in 100 fights I'll have a moment "oh I wish I could stop that channeled black from the war or herald".

Gutting the range to 600 is unjustifiable.

It's bad enough backstab hits like a wet noodle. Halving the range of our primary tool to land this overnerfed ability is insane... every thief player can feel it. Meanwhile things like holo scrapper soulbeast are allowed to be top tier without so much as a nerf. Thieves were already weak.... this nerf just killed dp dd pvp.

Not to mention the fact that thieves are super squishy. Like to the point one eviscerate or bulls charge from warrior is life threatening to us. The only thing we have to survive is range and some bits of stealth (can still be cleaved in it, plus it requires initiative dumping).

I look at scrapper with half its bar covered by barrier and not being able to get barrier off them, coupled with their 900 boons and killer damage. Why would I play this gutted daredevil elite spec (which btw the movement dodge roll got gutted too) medium class when the other two medium classes can hit t times harder and are super durable?

stick 2 stacks 5s stability on swipe and it's perfect

@LaFurion.3167 said:

@Turk.5460 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Cant think of any use with the unblocable steal, most people too BV if they wanted to do that.

LMAO wat?

That's literally what makes warrior/spellbreaker and firebrand hard to deal with/punish as those are critical parts to their defensive rotational play.

The only problem with Swipe is that they didn't nerf the other powercreep. Relative to core steal, for what Daredevil brings, it's a completely fine addition and these are the types of changes which should have happened in the first place.