Current Bunker Scrapper: Balanced or Unbalanced?

Hello,What are your thoughts on the certain scrapper status?My experience is actually frustrating... There is no game I play without at least one scrapper, most of the time both teams have one or one team has 2. And when this happens its mostly alrdy a loss. They can basically bunker 2 nodes undieing, reminding me of the bunker phantasm chrono ... which got nerfed in the end. I think it's time to do so for the scrapper. I could be wrong, but playing with and against it lowers my fun to play the game actually. I am not really confident about scrapper abilities so I have no clue what is too strong and nerfable but in a generally perspective the class looks pretty game breaking.

Like I said: I could be damn wrong, that's just my feelings, that's why I want you to give me your feedback/experience/thoughts about it. What I don't want is: "XYZ class is OP too..." Of course this game is not balanced at all, but this discussion is about the scrapper bunker, feel free to open new discussions about other classes!

Greetings, Adrop.

As someone who mains Necro, I do not see them as problematic...

The problem with Scrapper bunker build I see is how brainless it is - by far the easiest build to play with zero knowledge To be able to hold point vs 2 people easily - even dodges are not required...With that saying I personally do not see how can people find it fun to play scrapper bunker build since it really takes zero skills and zero effort, but I have seen so many matches where people are just leaving scrapper at far point, not touching them since it would be a waste of time fighting them (unless you are a boon corrupt power necro) and then I see those scrappers just standing on that point doing absolutely nothing the whole match...I really see zero fun in it but not my problem...

I'm OK with how scrapper is atm. What needs to change imo is the Autodefense Bomb Dispenser. It's a fee out that scrappers get incredible value out of since they can't be touched at range most of the time.

As it exists, I am fine with it.My only issue with it is thati t gains a bit too much barrier/healing from two skills (Medic Gyro/Bulwark). Tuning those down slightly will allow more builds to potentially pressure them off node and make them kite more than just facetanking damage. There have also been suggestions to making Bulwark less suicidal for a Scrapper to use in teamfights with the shared damage effect by removing it in exchange for group barrier application - applying more when there are others close by and less while alone. A change like that would also be good enough for both keeping its team-sustain good while weakening its solo sustainability.

its funny how many one shot builds are out there, then one build who is sort of immune to that (if you see it coming) pops up and everyone cries bloody murder.

I consider anything invincible to be "anti-fun"It's against the spirit of PvP in my mind. It's not a battle if one player has no chance of losing.

That's why I quit playing a particular build a while back; I was borderline unkillable. Alright it wasn't faceroll like this scrapper build but I just felt like it was bad sportsmanship to be immortal in a Player VS Player setting.

If a player looks at a character on a point that is not a direct counter to them in some way and says "nah **** it there's no point trying" then that design is flawed.

I don't think it is too strong (in this meta), but it definitely is not healthy for an exciting game. Neither are one-shots, but scrapper is just awfully boring, easy to play and makes whole games slow.

Don't know what to pick. I want it changed, not really nerfed.

Really i feel scrapper are way easier now. Just wait for them to use all thier skills then burst them down quick.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:its funny how many one shot builds are out there, then one build who is sort of immune to that (if you see it coming) pops up and everyone cries bloody murder.

It's not just one shot builds that scrapper makes un-fun.

@banJelacic.4201 said:As someone who mains Necro, I do not see them as problematic...

The problem with Scrapper bunker build I see is how brainless it is - by far the easiest build to play with zero knowledge To be able to hold point vs 2 people easily - even dodges are not required...With that saying I personally do not see how can people find it fun to play scrapper bunker build since it really takes zero skills and zero effort, but I have seen so many matches where people are just leaving scrapper at far point, not touching them since it would be a waste of time fighting them (unless you are a boon corrupt power necro) and then I see those scrappers just standing on that point doing absolutely nothing the whole match...I really see zero fun in it but not my problem...

Tbh that doesn't happen at plat. Dps builds like ranger, rev, Chrono can and will absolutely kill scrapper in seconds. Warrior and reaper can also cc kill a scrapper. If there is no one a scrapper stays on 1 node. N the other team is smart. Mid will be 5v4. N eventually the scrapper team will lose.

The only time a scrapper is effective is when there is someone who can't kill it attacks into it.

Admittedly I did that at the start when scrapper got buffed. Now that ppl are used to it. I rather go on warrior.

Now I am seeing a shift for scrappers that put more into dmg traits vs their bunker traits. Since the lack of mobility and dmg causes loss of games.

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Really i feel scrapper are way easier now. Just wait for them to use all thier skills then burst them down quick.

This.

Players outside plat or g3 don't understand it can be killed. They use builds that can't kill it and when they do use builds that can they press all buttons into blocks, evades and stab. Then they complain.

The way I see it scrapper is only really good vs condi mes, boon beast and can aid in team fights. It's low mobility and low dmg makes it a liability depending on team comp.

@"Magnus Godrik.5841" said:Really i feel scrapper are way easier now. Just wait for them to use all thier skills then burst them down quick.

100% agree. The thing is, if the don't use all their defensive skills, they die. So they have to use those. And as soon as they do, just freaking nuke em. But yeah, "If I need to think before using my burst, something is OP and I demand a nerf!"

Scrapper has a lot of counters in the current meta. I think they are fine as is.

The problems with Bunker Scrapper are: You could be braindead and still tank into 2 ppl just fine. And with like every bunker build in sPvP it's a question of investment vs return. Ok so you can take down a 'decent' Bunker Scrapper in like what? half a minute? a minute? with two ppl? for what? half a minute of ticks because he just caps the node again after respawn, leaving your team at zero momentum because your team had to fight 3v4 the entire time? That's bs..Also keep in mind that not every Scrapper automatically plays the bunker build that gets flamed so much. It's not "Scrapper in general", it's the bunker build. And yes it's not immortal or anything but being able to steal enough time from the enemy team to prevent any momentum single handedly is just broken in Conquest.

In sPvP this just means free points. The only chance you have to win with a decent bunker scrapper in the enemy team is to only play 2 nodes in a 4v5 and decap when he leaves his camp (if ever) but unfortunately this is way more difficult said than done in solo Q because you'll always have at least one or two guys who just like to waste their time, spending all their time on a enemy-capped node fighting the scrapper until they get zerged by the other team (because your team already died or disengaged in the 3v4 they have been left) and die.. just to repeat the cycle..It's frustrating and it's the same problem as with every good bunker in sPvP.. It just happens to be Scrapper atm.

@"DoomNexus.5324" said:The problems with Bunker Scrapper are: You could be braindead and still tank into 2 ppl just fine. And with like every bunker build in sPvP it's a question of investment vs return. Ok so you can take down a 'decent' Bunker Scrapper in like what? half a minute? a minute? with two ppl? for what? half a minute of ticks because he just caps the node again after respawn, leaving your team at zero momentum because your team had to fight 3v4 the entire time? That's bs..Also keep in mind that not every Scrapper automatically plays the bunker build that gets flamed so much. It's not "Scrapper in general", it's the bunker build. And yes it's not immortal or anything but being able to steal enough time from the enemy team to prevent any momentum single handedly is just broken in Conquest.

In sPvP this just means free points. The only chance you have to win with a decent bunker scrapper in the enemy team is to only play 2 nodes in a 4v5 and decap when he leaves his camp (if ever) but unfortunately this is way more difficult said than done in solo Q because you'll always have at least one or two guys who just like to waste their time, spending all their time on a enemy-capped node fighting the scrapper until they get zerged by the other team (because your team already died or disengaged in the 3v4 they have been left) and die.. just to repeat the cycle..It's frustrating and it's the same problem as with every good bunker in sPvP.. It just happens to be Scrapper atm.

Errr no? This all depends. Where I play (high gold/low plat. Yes, I'm a newb) people deal with scrappers easily. Just today had a game with 2 bunker scrappers in the enemy team while we had 2 holos. Guess what, we won that easy. Scrappers can be killed quite easily, especially by chaining CC (they only have 1 stun break usually from elixir gun's toolbelt).Also rotating helps a lot. You see a scrapper afking on a node? If you can't kill him solo, just go 5x4 the enemy team THEN come and kill the scrapper too.These are the basics of Conquest. Everyone should know that bunker is great only when it holds 1+ people on the node.But you can choose not to play by these rules and basically nullify the bunker by rotating.Now, I know you or someone else will immediately respond with something like "but, but my team sucks and they chase scrappers". Well, sure! You have options there too! Help and kill the scrapper, or try and play the same game with the enemy team - cap their close/far.But then again, if your team sucks that means you're not in a rating you claim to be (most people on the pvp forum are "plat" if you listen to them)Or when you do and get the game where your team absolutely sucks, those games happen, yes. You can still get something from it. Like try and kite them for as long as you can. I saw a lot of games, where the team who won the first few team fights just relax thd start splitting, resulting in the enemy team regaining control of the match flow and eventually winning that match :D

But I got carried away, my bad.

TL;DR There are ways to win vs a scrapper. You just have to try.

@"DoomNexus.5324" said:The problems with Bunker Scrapper are: You could be braindead and still tank into 2 ppl just fine. And with like every bunker build in sPvP it's a question of investment vs return. Ok so you can take down a 'decent' Bunker Scrapper in like what? half a minute? a minute? with two ppl? for what? half a minute of ticks because he just caps the node again after respawn, leaving your team at zero momentum because your team had to fight 3v4 the entire time? That's bs..Also keep in mind that not every Scrapper automatically plays the bunker build that gets flamed so much. It's not "Scrapper in general", it's the bunker build. And yes it's not immortal or anything but being able to steal enough time from the enemy team to prevent any momentum single handedly is just broken in Conquest.

In sPvP this just means free points. The only chance you have to win with a decent bunker scrapper in the enemy team is to only play 2 nodes in a 4v5 and decap when he leaves his camp (if ever) but unfortunately this is way more difficult said than done in solo Q because you'll always have at least one or two guys who just like to waste their time, spending all their time on a enemy-capped node fighting the scrapper until they get zerged by the other team (because your team already died or disengaged in the 3v4 they have been left) and die.. just to repeat the cycle..It's frustrating and it's the same problem as with every good bunker in sPvP.. It just happens to be Scrapper atm.

You can actually kill a scrapper super fast solo if you know what to look for and what you're doing.

Absolutely overpowered. Especially against Holosmith. Here's what I propose to ACTUALLY balance scrapper:Defense Field can no longer be used while decapping/capping a point in conquest.Defense Field CANNOT block neutral projectiles (such as Holosmith's Toss Elixir H, Toss Elixir R, Toss Elixir S, etc.) as they do not hurt the scrapper or anyone inside. That breaks a key elixir holo mechanic and it's broken.Change Bulwark Gyro to "Apply 5 seconds of Resistance up to 5 allies (including yourself)" and remove the granted barrier.Completely remove the Adaptive Armor trait. They already get enough barrier from allied scourges anyway.

@"memausz.7264" said:Absolutely overpowered. Especially against Holosmith. Here's what I propose to ACTUALLY balance scrapper:Defense Field can no longer be used while decapping/capping a point in conquest.Defense Field CANNOT block neutral projectiles (such as Holosmith's Toss Elixir H, Toss Elixir R, Toss Elixir S, etc.) as they do not hurt the scrapper or anyone inside. That breaks a key elixir holo mechanic and it's broken.Change Bulwark Gyro to "Apply 5 seconds of Resistance up to 5 allies (including yourself)" and remove the granted barrier.Completely remove the Adaptive Armor trait. They already get enough barrier from allied scourges anyway.

1. Why? Its not complete invulnerability. Defense field may stop projectiles, but melee attacks and PBAoE work just fine. Unblockables also pierce it anyway.
2. That sounds more like an issue with Holosmith's elixirs than Scrapper's shield. Even so, you can just use them when the shield is not up or while not within its sphere?
3. The barrier is fine on the Gyro, but its how much that it gives (while alone and not sharing damage with others) that may need a tuning down.
4. I think it could use a rework so that its not so passive, but it doesnt need to be outright removed

The bunker potential is definititely too high, but it's not really a hardcarry since bunkering and ressing is pretty much all it can do. This can be decisive in some situations, but often is not, depending on how your team is doing in the teamfights. But yeah, the sustain needs a further tunedown, especially if meta specs keep getting nerfed.

Scrapper should always be turret engineer tier due to how easy it is to play.

Why does the community do polls like this? The devs can determine for themselves using data weather or not a class is not balanced.

@Xstein.2187 said:Why does the community do polls like this? The devs can determine for themselves using date weather or not a class is not balanced.

Is this a fact?

How can we nerf scrapper when they get hardcountered by Tornado? ;)

@Crab Fear.1624 said:

@Xstein.2187 said:Why does the community do polls like this? The devs can determine for themselves using date weather or not a class is not balanced.

Yes, this is a fact. The devs have said before that they have more data then the players have access to and that they make decisions based on this data.The only way this is not a fact is if the devs purposely lied to us. This really shouldn't surprise anyone.You can't, or at least shouldn't, balance fully based on subjective opinions.

@Xstein.2187 said:devs can determine weather or not a class is not balanced.

this part?