The missing attribute bonuses. — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The missing attribute bonuses.

whiteaden.7842whiteaden.7842 Member ✭✭
edited April 26, 2019 in Professions

TL;DR:

Replace the named unique attribute buffs that traits and utilities provide for simple, single-attribute improvements provided by these traits, but they no longer stack. these can be stronger than the current ones (since they don't stack) but also get overwritten when group comp is ill considered.

Disclaimer:

These suggestions would have the most impact on warriors due to how banners work; however I am not a warrior main complaining about my class; I honestly play very little banner warrior because I find it very boring, and that's what I'd like to address. I do play every class throughout Tyria and the Mists, but have spent the majority of my time on Ranger (Druid in Raids), Warrior (SpB in WvW), Guardian (DH/FB in Fractals) and Revenant (Herald in WvW); Thief and Elementalist are my least played classes, while Engineer and Necromancer are primarily used for open world roaming; Mesmer's been played in both PvE and WvW; but I'm avoiding Chrono-jail by constantly remaining at least one meta behind.

I will be limiting my discussion to PvE content (and primarily raids at that) as almost every one of the bonuses I mention below are currently 10-man buffs. I'm not addressing WvW and PvP as there is a skill split; so if any of my suggestions appear outrageously OP in either of those modes, I apologize.

Broad goals

  • add missing bonus attributes to classes without them.
  • simplify balancing (for Arenanet)
  • open up role-defining avenues for future elite specs.
  • reduce buff bar clutter (sort of)
  • increase build diversity.
  • improve squad class diversity options.

Anyway, time for a wall of bullet pointed text.

As of right now, the PvE raid situation is pretty much as follows:

  • 2 Banners are mandatory due to providing unique buffs. These Banners provide Power +Condition Damage & Precision + Ferocity bonuses. (warrior)
  • Spotter and Empower Allies are mandatory trait picks for more unique buffs to Precision & Power. (Warrior & Ranger)
  • 2 spirits are considered mandatory due to providing unique effects; guaranteed Burning stacks to classes who don't have access to it and +5% power damage. (Ranger)
  • Assassin's Presence, Pinpoint Distribution are however not considered mandatory picks; These provide Condition Damage & Ferocity bonuses. (Revenant & Engineer)
  • Strength in Numbers does not see any play; which is too bad; but I get it; since it's applied to everyone it negates any Toughness Tanking benefits it could provide. (Guardian) more about this at the bottom of the Missing Attributes section

I believe these perceived mandatory stat bonuses are hindering the diversity of group comps as well as the diversity of possible situational build diversity (e.g. Bannerslave Warrior, regardless of your build; you are expected to bring banner(s), this is limiting your DPS, CC and other utility options. likewise a Druid is always expected to bring Glyph of Empowerment and Spirits; limiting their personal DPS options).

Missing Bonus Attributes

There are 4 classes that are excluded from being able to provide 10-man buffs in raids.

  • Necromancer has access to Vampiric Presence; a 5 man buff with 600 range that allows allies to life-steal a tiny bit every .5 second. I believe this trait can be expanded to 10 people and be given the ++ Vitality modifier to bring it in line with the other master traits; I think it would be in line with the necromancer's idea of being a lumbering damage sponge, feeding off of their foes as they chip away at them; being near the necromancer extends this to their allies by increasing the sponginess of their allies. (I think minions should be immune to this trait, but that's a balance team decision)
  • Elementalist currently has Soothing Mist, which is a 600 range, 5-man buff that heals allies on a 10 second interval. Soothing mist can be augmented through Soothing Power, which I think is the place to expand this trait, make it affect 10 players and given the ++Healing Power Attribute bonus. I am aware that Soothing Power might be OP if it gets both +100% effectiveness and 10 targets, so adjustments might have to be made to keep it in line with the other GrandMaster trait options, or it can be brought in line with and moved to the Master Tier as that's where every other class has their ++attribute buff (but that's what the balance team is for.)

Thief and Mesmer do not have any 10-man shared Attribute buffs; and I think the elite specializations from Heart of Thorns provide a space for the two stats that came with it: Concentration for Chronomancer, and Expertise for Daredevil.

  • Daredevil, I think Havoc Specialist would be the place to add ++Expertise; as it provides a condition benefit to the trait, which currently only affects power damage.
  • Chronomancer; Improved Alacrity is the place to either add, or to replace for the ++Concentration to allies buff; as it provides a slot for the Chronomancer to support their allies by making their allies' boons better (just preemptively) since boonsharing's no longer their role; boon extension is. (again, the balance team should make these decisions)

Summary of my suggested spread of the passive boon traits

Guardian: Strength in Numbers: maybe this trait should function more like Flesh of the Master) to allow a guardian to toughness-tank in a raid while buffing allies with 100 toughness each. (+25 toughness per affected ally; so in 5 man content the Guardian would still have 125 toughness while allies have 100)

Simplifying Balancing and reducing Buff Bar Clutter

There are now a maximum of 9 unique attribute bonuses on your buff bar, instead having 3 for every 2 stats (e.g. Ferocity+Precision=AP+Banner+Spotter) the existing icons could remain in place if you'd like; so that overlapping bonuses end up swapping between the two icons on your bar; making it easier to spot when there's a conflict of duplicate traits/bonuses.

The trait Assassin's Presence provides the buff-bar effect of ++Ferocity (source: RevenantName)
The trait Spotter provides the buff bar effect of ++Precision (source: RangerName)
The Banner of Discipline provides the buff-bar effect of ++Precision (source: WarriorName) ++Ferocity (source: WarriorName)
If multiple of the same buffs are present in the area, they override each-other instead of stacking.
The values of the bonus is subject to the balance teams' discretion; but if say ++Ferocity gets buffed; it gets buffed for both the Banner and Assassin's Presence at the same time; meaning that both options remain valid.

Currently existing and future Elite Specializations can include these same ++Attribute bonuses in their traits; with each of them providing an alternative to the existing trait picks, and each of them can help denote the overall theme of the specialization by providing an offensive, defensive or supportive benefit to your allies. some examples include ++Toughness on Scrappers; ++Vitality on Weaver, ++Concentration on Firebrand.

But What About My Banners?!

I assume that some of you may be thinking, these changes would just flat out make banners obsolete; because always-active-traits will be preferred as they cant be failed/forgotten this is not necessarily true for a few reasons; everything is dependent on the balance team though.
1. 1 banner gives 2 benefits; so a warrior with 1 banner provides the same as 2 classes bringing specific traits. This opens up build options for other classes.
2. Banners are stationary; so can be in placed in a spot to benefit as many people as possible; even when the buff providers in the party/squad split up to do a mechanic or split phase.
3. Banners can be traited into, these augmented banners could provide benefits that those passive traits wouldn't give; either boons or a unique buff for the warrior would solve that (detailed below)

  • Banners are are the warrior's equivalent of Ranger Spirits; so if the trait Doubled Standards had a variety of boons (instead of swiftness only) and is given an AoE boon application; it would make banners a lot more active during the play; you'll want to pick it up & drop it before a burst phase to provide some extra buffs to your allies. For what boons to splash out; Might on Strength, Fury on Discipline, Protection on Defense, Regeneration on Tactics and Stability on Battle Standard are some straight-forward possibilities).
  • Another trait option is looking at traits affected by the number of Mesmer Illusions around - e.g. Compounding Power or Illusionary Defense - Warrior's could have something similar that whenever they summon or pick up a banner; this is more of a selfish buff to banners so I'd prefer the first trait suggestion as banners are about aiding yr allies.

Improving build and squad composition diversity

Forever returning to Warrior; as it is the most hampered by its unique bonus providing capability through banners: In a power heavy group comp a warrior is expected to bring both Banner of Strength (Power+Condi Dmg) & Discipline (Precision+Ferocity) as well as Empower Allies; this is 3 mandatory slots to provide buffs to their group. Meanwhile the Ranger brings Spotter and a Revenant (might) bring(s) Assassin's Presence;
In my suggested alterations the moment your squad or party has a Ranger & Revenant in it running their appropriate traits; you don't need a warrior to bring the Banner of Discipline; and if they pick the Empower Allies trait, they don't need to bring any banners; giving them 2 utility slots back.

If you've made it to the bottom of this; thanks for reading; :cold_sweat: I realize this post may have been better suited to be cut into two topics; one regarding Standardizing Unique Buffs and another about Missing Bonus Attributes; but alas; here I am; a few hours into typing all this; unable to go back and split it evenly without fear of repeating myself in both threads.

I look forward to reading your salty responses, and hope we can get some constructive dialogue going non-boon buffs in group content :+1:

//Griska

Comments

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2019

    Is guardian tank a thing in PvE? Not so sure I saw one. Thats why strenght in numbers is already problematic unless fb is in the subgroup with chrono (which they usually are not). So im gonna say no to additional 25 for guardian

    Toughness modifiers are something that needs to be completely reworked IMO to be honest.

    Also change to modifier stacking would make Banners mandatory, not obsolete as one BS could do work of four professions thus allowing those professions to take personal dps options traits.

    But overall i think you are on to something. As i think attribute modifiers need rework and them overlapping instead of stacking might be a good idea

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    I like the idea of spreading these buffs across all classes, which might shake comps, but here's one thing I see as an Elementalist player, and another as for all classes.

    I don't think that a healing power bonus, say 100, even 200, would be crucial in Fractal/Raid/WvW scenarios, as there is already a cap to reach to be in the safe zone, this would make the bonus somehow, meh imho.

    The other thing across all classes would be this: if each class has to carry a specific buff (it shouldn't be an e-spec line furthermore), this would already be mandatory for the player that mains such class to pick this trait line, for this trait specifically, limiting the options with regards to the class's capabilities. For an elementalist (won't speak of other PoVs), I will always be limited to playing as a support because my buff only exists as a support as Water line lacks any damaging capabilities to allow for still going for DPS.

    However, let's say I can pick my Water line, and Fire/Air line, expected to be a hybrid, while other support covers the other part (whatever it is), also hybrid, this would allow the existence of a support (under heavy pressure, or for a supporting type of player) and a semi-support, which is already good instead of 1 option. Same implies for DPS, which would free up a trait line, a utility slot, or a weapon set.

    It seems good as it would allow more diversity for the classes used, but would limit the versatility within the class itself.

    And a disclaimer: I don't know why this always happens, but just to remove this weight off my shoulders. It seems that my typed words/sentences to be filled with rage when writing on the forums, so please, I am all chill and open to discussion. Don't picture me as something else PepeHands

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

  • @kasoki.5180 said:
    Is guardian tank a thing in PvE? Not so sure I saw one. Thats why strenght in numbers is already problematic unless fb is in the subgroup with chrono (which they usually are not). So im gonna say no to additional 25 for guardian.

    Guardian Tank was an example, which does exist now that Firebrand has been a thing for a while, they take over the role of quickness generator while providing heals and other boons as well aegis, a mesmer or renegade fills the alacrity role. if any mechanics are introduced in the future that scale based on toughness (outside of the current tanking) having extra toughness for your squad may become worth it... these changes aren't necessarily aimed at being implemented right now but more as a suggestion to look at down the line... just look at how little the warrior raid build changed between HoT and PoF; still a bannerslave;

    re: guard tanks, with how ANET has constantly been making changes to the ubiquity of Chrono-Tanks; so some alternatives have arisen, there's the Fire-brigade combination (Quickness Firebrand and Alacrity Renegade) as well as mixed combinations of Firebrands, Renegades of Firebrand Tanks with Diviner-Chronos for boons/alacrity; somewhere there's even a possibility of a Druid Tank.
    A Firebrand running SiN would be filling the role of the Chrono-tank; without having to build into Toughness as much. in that scenario a Chrono wouldn't be bringing any toughness, so the +25 toughness advantage (5 players) to +150 (10 players) toughness would be plenty to ensure that the firebrand would be top of toughness (unless someone builds into it of course).

    In WvW a Guardian Driver would have an extra 250 Toughness if they bring SiN; which will slowly drop by 25 as their squad gets decimated or clouds/squirrels.

    @kasoki.5180 said:
    Also change to modifier stacking would make Banners mandatory, not obsolete as one BS could do work of four professions thus allowing those professions to take personal dps options traits.

    But overall i think you are on to something. As i think attribute modifiers need rework and them overlapping instead of stacking might be a good idea

    That would all be dependent on what other traits are available as options;
    For a Condition Ranger bringing Spotter means sacrificing Hidden Barbs; but a Power Soulbeast may not cause enough bleeding to want Hidden Barbs or Striders Defense; so Spotter makes sense to be brought.
    Similarly a Warrior would want to run Empower Allies and Banner of Discipline in a power-only encounter; as the Condition Damage on BoStrength isn't helpful.

    Each of the trait options would need to be considered; so that they have valuable alternatives; and valuable reasons to pick them. and with every new elite specialization coming in the game; more combinations become valid.

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    I like the idea of spreading these buffs across all classes, which might shake comps, but here's one thing I see as an Elementalist player, and another as for all classes.

    I don't think that a healing power bonus, say 100, even 200, would be crucial in Fractal/Raid/WvW scenarios, as there is already a cap to reach to be in the safe zone, this would make the bonus somehow, meh imho.

    I concur, Healing Power, Vitality and Toughness are tougher sells because they do not provide as tangible a bonus as any of the offensive stats do, unblockable damage and % toughness-based are what's required to make any of those useful; imagine if healing-power reduced condition damage like how toughness reduces flat damage...
    But also why I think they won't ever be mandatory to be run; but they could provide a bit of a bonus to bringing a support that provides it; I don't see a DPS weaver bringing it; that doesn't make sense; but a support auramancer has that as a nice alternative to say a druid healer or a firebrand healer.

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    The other thing across all classes would be this: if each class has to carry a specific buff (it shouldn't be an e-spec line furthermore),_ this would already be mandatory for the player that mains_ such class to pick this trait line, for this trait specifically, limiting the options with regards to the class's capabilities. For an elementalist (won't speak of other PoVs), I will always be limited to playing as a support because my buff only exists as a support as Water line lacks any damaging capabilities to allow for still going for DPS.

    I don't believe that'll be the case. for one thing; there's an overlap where 1 Ranger bringing Spotter means that nobody else has to bring the ++Precision buff; so if Tempest gets ++Precision, they or a ranger brings it.

    For the defensive buffs I don't think anyone would be forced to bring them until there's an overhaul where Toughness, Healing Power and/or Vitality become mandatory stats. all content currently in GW2 can be done without any defensive stats; with the exception of toughness tanking... but a single rune can address that. so a shared defensive buff won't ever be mandatory (hence why each of them is tied to a trait that also does something else in my suggestion.

    Even in the current Raid meta, an Engineer isn't expected to bring Pinpoint Distribution; and the heal tempest build on the SC builds site doesn't run Soothing Power, because Powerful Aura is more useful outside of water;

    It seems good as it would allow more diversity for the classes used, but would limit the versatility within the class itself.

    It only limits diversity for the class if there is no alternative to it, banners are an alternative; ranger spirits be an alternative; future elite specializations can provide alternatives; even traits in other lines could provide alternatives (I did not want to go into that; because you could probably find an attribute for every traitline in the game; which would mean every class could provide 3 10-man attribute bonuses, which would mess with my point here)

    Early on in my post I was considering suggesting that the elite-spec-attribute-buffs should/could be minor traits; but that would (in the case of your weaver) be limiting; as now bringing two weavers (for example) would mean there's a guaranteed overlap of whatever attribute buff they give; which would be wasteful. (this would also apply to zergs in WvW or the open world, even in PvP it'd have that effect.)

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    And a disclaimer: I don't know why this always happens, but just to remove this weight off my shoulders. It seems that my typed words/sentences to be filled with rage when writing on the forums, so please, I am all chill and open to discussion. Don't picture me as something else PepeHands

    you don't sound angry to me.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 29, 2019

    @whiteaden.7842 said:

    @Auburner.6945 said:
    The other thing across all classes would be this: if each class has to carry a specific buff (it shouldn't be an e-spec line furthermore),_ this would already be mandatory for the player that mains_ such class to pick this trait line, for this trait specifically, limiting the options with regards to the class's capabilities. For an elementalist (won't speak of other PoVs), I will always be limited to playing as a support because my buff only exists as a support as Water line lacks any damaging capabilities to allow for still going for DPS.

    I don't believe that'll be the case. for one thing; there's an overlap where 1 Ranger bringing Spotter means that nobody else has to bring the ++Precision buff; so if Tempest gets ++Precision, they or a ranger brings it.

    For the defensive buffs I don't think anyone would be forced to bring them until there's an overhaul where Toughness, Healing Power and/or Vitality become mandatory stats. all content currently in GW2 can be done without any defensive stats; with the exception of toughness tanking... but a single rune can address that. so a shared defensive buff won't ever be mandatory (hence why each of them is tied to a trait that also does something else in my suggestion.

    Even in the current Raid meta, an Engineer isn't expected to bring Pinpoint Distribution; and the heal tempest build on the SC builds site doesn't run Soothing Power, because Powerful Aura is more useful outside of water;

    Regarding that same buffs would overlap (yeah it will prevent stacking the same class), this would make the classes with more than 1 buff more viable than others unless those others have uniqueness carried within their lines/skills. A good example is (was) Druid's GoE, although Tempest/Alacrigade/Quickbrand have stronger boons/heals/damage, Druid's uniqueness kept it the primary support. Let's say a Druid and a Tempest can now share the same buff, what will Ele provide vs what will Ranger provide will determine the viability, as a matter of gameplay and a thing in life, people always look for the best, so if each can provide specific uniqueness that the other lacks within a specific encounter then I would agree on this change (not saying it's bad). Another example of uniqueness, Spellbreaker and Scourge have great boon control, but why is Chrono taking their place then, because the game didn't implement any mechanic that requires an actual boon control class with instant and strong boon remove/corrupt access, but what exists is a boon that needs to get removed once every phase (example: VG).

    Early on in my post I was considering suggesting that the elite-spec-attribute-buffs should/could be minor traits; but that would (in the case of your weaver) be limiting; as now bringing two weavers (for example) would mean there's a guaranteed overlap of whatever attribute buff they give; which would be wasteful. (this would also apply to zergs in WvW or the open world, even in PvP it'd have that effect.)

    I agree that this would be a waste, stacking the same class, if this existed, but in an actual WvW scenario (in PvP it might be more effective than WvW zerg'ing), some stats are not really needed that much, which will result in this issue, just like how Druid was a top tier PvE support, but got demolished facing a FB (even Tempest before the so called buffs) in PvP and WvW. Therefore, my point is, if the class that can't provide useful buffs in a specific scenario, it should have access to what can make it viable. For example, backline weaver before it falls off the meta, it had 0 utility, requires babysitting 24/7, dies from a single breath due to stupid mis-positioning, but it had powerful damage that makes opponent's mistakes lethal, and this thing should be a core class thing, not because of F2P but because if a Weaver can provide X, then Tempest won't.

    Pull the strings. Watch them dance.

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