Swipe change MAINLY PvP

I was dueling in Arena last night and I got this idea about how to fix this major missconception of Swipe.Since Daredevil was based on an idea of a Ninja (you know staff the outfit dodgy brawler etc)I would propose this instead of Swipe we have now

SnatchYou throw a wire at your enemy pull him to you and kick them which will knock them down. (Something like that thing Scorpion does in Mortal combat)(the wire will follow enemy like Surprise shot does on sb when you are stealthed it is so that the elite can't miss)CD 35 secondsRange 900UnblockableKnockdown 3 secSteal up to 3 boons and apply contradictory condition of a boon you've stolen for 3 secBasic Dmg 333 (can be improved with your power and mug adds to it)

This is a trade off i can imagine instead of the not that well considered thing we got now.They wanted DD to be a bit more Interrupting class a brawler so lets make it a brawler.Notice CD is now 35 sec so this cant be abused too much even with Improvisation and Swindlers equlibrium The percentage we get from this is making the quickest Snatch at least 28 sec apart which is 4 sec longer than a normal Steal would be and 4 seconds can be a matter of life and death for thief we know that so lets consider this Trade off. Since they want to Trade off stuff

i said this before and i'll say it again but i'm confident that swipe is supposed to be a downgraded steal and the dodges are the main benefit, not the unblockable

@derd.6413 said:i said this before and i'll say it again but i'm confident that swipe is supposed to be a downgraded steal and the dodges are the main benefit, not the unblockable

Explain to me then in terms of damage how do dodges help us deal damge?

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@derd.6413 said:i said this before and i'll say it again but i'm confident that swipe is supposed to be a downgraded steal and the dodges are the main benefit, not the unblockable

not everything has to be about DPS

Deed is right imo.no way arenanet would have conceived swipe as a side or upgrade even with unblockable added. If so than I dont kno what to say lol. Problem is the need to do more to make DD a more viable brawler,than swipe would be a fair trade off and would have been warranted. The trait changes really dont add dps or sustain in any significant amount.

@derd.6413 said:

not everything has to be about DPS

Okay in that case explain to me please how does Daredevil benefit from whatever improvement dodges got in your oppinion in comparison to previous state. (i would like to hear what you rly think improved dodges so much as well cuz ( °-°) )Since if you read the notes The three dodges we have remained untouched but only Steal got changed.So where is the benefit for DD here?Maybe i just dont understand your way of thinking please explain

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@derd.6413 said:

not everything has to be about DPS

if you've read the patchnotes you'd know that they're adding downsides to especs that didn't previously have one in order to make them have a trade-off. DrD got the upside of improved dodges back in HoT and has only now gotten it's downside of swipe.

just like how druid always had celestial avatar and only now got worse pets for it

and how berserker got berserker form but only now lost their core F1

@derd.6413 said:

Okay It seems i have been rude so i have reformed what i have said

As for the swipe change doneThis would be all nice and what if we were back in 2015 when there was no PoF out yet. You do realize all the new elite specs are already out there used in almost by everyone and are coutnering and overperforming the HoT e-specs already.

The change of Steal to Swipe had its time durring the period before PoF was released. Releasing it now is not viable or fair to do since new e-specs now not only overperform the HoT e-spec but also they cant be beaten by it.

It is not normal to be changing 4+ yo spec since game is flooded by new ones that are better than the old e-specs already. Making this tradeoff which means we give you something and take something from you is absolute nonsense in this game state

There are new overperforming elite specs that can beat old ones and then patch takes something from old ones as a trade off? Also there was given nothing in return to those dodges that have remained unchanged. If you rly want to argue with the fact that the Swipe is a trade off for 3rd dodge from 2015 then original Steal should be considered a buff we rightfully deserve since all other new PoF especs are overperofming in comparison to us DD's.

So to make it more balanced they would buff us with a normal ranged steal that would be a normal way to solve this if we had had Swipe since 2015 and now after pof is out they would realize DD is weak compared to them and they would buff it with 1,2k range steal. But they did the exact oposite

The change of 3 dodges that came into completely different game state and was good back in the day is not a buff anymore since it is 4+ yo and with new specs out it is not as viable as it was before and taking away range from steal as a tradeoff for some change made 4 years before completely altering function of a class in this game state is just downright not smart. I think you are not right about this I am more than happy to hear your feedback

@derd.6413 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@derd.6413 said:

not everything has to be about DPS

If only that were true. Nah, there are plenty elite specializations that have no downside. Daredevil long wasnt one of them. It already had an inherent downside in the "upgraded" dodges having their own downsides. Oh and the ones that actually dont have a downside? Didnt get one. Chronomancer is still Mesmer with an extra form of Shatter. Scrapper is still Engineer with a Function Gyro. Tempest is still Elementalist with Attunements. Even of the ones that technically do, their downsides were all on the level of pre-patch Daredevil, while no class has a downside on the level of post-patch Daredevil. Like, Holosmiths sole downside is that they dont get the toolbelt 5 skill. Mirage the fact that their dodge doesnt move them. Dragonhunter the fact that their third profession skill has a higher cooldown.

But to further rub salt in the wound, look at what happened to Revenant. Their elite specializations had no tradeoff. But unlike thief, they didnt nerf it into the ground. They just gave baseline Revenant something new. Its clear they didnt do it for thief because Core thief was already far better than Daredevil, but nerfing it makes just as little sense given that context. They shouldve treated Daredevil like they treated Chronomancer and just basically ignore that it has no downside because nerfing it right now was a monumentally stupid thing to do.

@derd.6413 said:

if you've read the patchnotes you'd know that they're adding downsides to especs that didn't previously have one in order to make them have a trade-off. DrD got the upside of improved dodges back in HoT and has only now gotten it's downside of swipe.

just like how druid always had celestial avatar and only now got worse pets for it

and how berserker got berserker form but only now lost their core F1

Berserker loses F1 core, 2 codi remove and 6 seconds of Fury BUT gain +300 power, +300 condition damage, +20% damage if you lose 300 toughness and a new, no sense, OP Arc Divider. Here we have trade off.

Daredevil loses something (600 range on Steal) that is fundamental in the playstyle. Gain access to a third endurance bar is basically +1 dodge at the start of the fight, we can do without it. Here there is a huge nerf, not a trade off.And the fact that a lot of people switch to core S/D or switch classes is the proof (two evenings of WvW roaming and the only daredevil I found it's me).

@Jack Redline.5379 said:@UNOwen.7132 said:@SehferViega.8725 said:those are the reasons it's not a good trade-off but it doesn't disprove that it's a trade-off (good or bad). but the reason i keep bringing it up is because i think that they should change swipe and the dodges to a point where swipe is a fair downgrade of steal for the benefits of the DrD dodges rather then put swipe on equal footing with regular steal

I cant believe exhaustion is still on unhindered combatant on a class that only lives by evades, when classes in today's iteration can have instant rez pets,sic em,herald can walk around with perma fury,might,regent and swiftness,guards have pulsing free blocks among countless skill blocks as well as invulnerability,scrappers out stealth thiefs and almost perma cleans aoe with gyro,holes have great everything.its like classes that had hard downsides added to the past dont get any changes when arenets future changes give more power creep to other classes with zero downsides. Let's nerf a glassy stealth rogue classes ability to stealth for long periods and than later on give a non stealth class a pulsating 15 sec of stealth that follow the class around lmao the balance in this game literally couldnt be worse of the development team just grabbed random people off the street to make changes.

@"derd.6413" said:those are the reasons it's not a good trade-off but it doesn't disprove that it's a trade-off (good or bad). but the reason i keep bringing it up is because i think that they should change swipe and the dodges to a point where swipe is a fair downgrade of steal for the benefits of the DrD dodges rather then put swipe on equal footing with regular steal

Daredevil trade off sounds like a theft more then a trade off XD

People must consider that playing daredevil you have to renounce to one core spec (shadow arts, critacal strikes, acrobatics). The only reason I still play daredevil is cause I really like interrupt/Pulmonary Impact mechanic (that is garbage in this moment). In competitive modes core thieves perform really better, no way.We are talking about something that is called ELITE spec and is weaker then base spec.

"In contrast to core specializations, which merely modify how certain skills and effects work, choosing an elite specialization fundamentally changes the way a given profession plays by altering or expanding on the base profession mechanic". This is not my thoughts, is AN description of Elite specializations (you can find it on wiki).So daredevil used to expand base profession mechanic. "Trade off" is just a joke to nerf it after 3 y.

@derd.6413 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:@UNOwen.7132 said:@SehferViega.8725 said:those are the reasons it's not a good trade-off but it doesn't disprove that it's a trade-off (good or bad). but the reason i keep bringing it up is because i think that they should change swipe and the dodges to a point where swipe is a fair downgrade of steal for the benefits of the DrD dodges rather then put swipe on equal footing with regular steal

Counterpoint: thats not possible. The dodges are already as powerful as you can make no-cast time, universal skills. The only one that has room to be buffed is dash, but dash was already nerfed because it caused issues. There is no way to make these dodges worth it in exchange for a steal nerf. Currently there are only 2 options that have a hope of working. 1: Admit your mistake, revert all changes but the repeater one, and instead buff Daredevil so it can compete with core thief again. Clearly, these changes werent tested in the slightest, based on the fact that swipe didnt work with several steal traits, and the unblockable skill fact straight up didnt apply unless you picked mug. 2: Keep the Swipe Change, but give Daredevil an additional, very powerful mechanic. Idk, give them an F3 skill that stores up evaded damage up to a point that you can use to deal that damage to your target.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:@UNOwen.7132 said:@SehferViega.8725 said:those are the reasons it's not a good trade-off but it doesn't disprove that it's a trade-off (good or bad). but the reason i keep bringing it up is because i think that they should change swipe and the dodges to a point where swipe is a fair downgrade of steal for the benefits of the DrD dodges rather then put swipe on equal footing with regular steal

not with that attitude

@derd.6413 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

LOLand with what attitude would it be okay? xDthis cracked me up a bitAnet to Daredevil : YO I am gonna break your legs.Daredevil: WAT?! NO STAHP!Anet broke his legsDaredevil: AAAAAAAAAARRRGHGH MY LEGS!!! AAAAHH IT HURTS!!!Anet: Come on man you can still use your hands.Daredevil: MY LEGS ARE BROKEN AND IT HURTS AS HELL HOW CAN I BE HAPPY THAT I CAN STILL USE MY HANDS??!!Anet: Well you cant with that attitude.

@derd.6413 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:@UNOwen.7132 said:@SehferViega.8725 said:those are the reasons it's not a good trade-off but it doesn't disprove that it's a trade-off (good or bad). but the reason i keep bringing it up is because i think that they should change swipe and the dodges to a point where swipe is a fair downgrade of steal for the benefits of the DrD dodges rather then put swipe on equal footing with regular steal

Its got nothing to do with attitude. Its simply a matter of design. Take Bound. Bound already does a crapton of damage when it hits. But it rarely hits, by nature of being a dodge. If you buff its damage skyhigh, you dont really make it more appealing of a pick. You simply make it into the new stupid cheese build at some point. With Impaling Lotus, you hit a different problem. You can make it good real easy. But then, you have a build that does massive amounts of damage just by dodging. And thief can dodge a lot if you go all-in on it. Usually, thats bad, because youre just dodging and doing not a whole lot, but with Impaling Lotus, this would create an uninteractive and unfun build. Dash is the only one you kinda could, but that just makes Thief even more of a decap and +1bot.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:SnatchYou throw a wire at your enemy pull him to you and kick them which will knock them down. (Something like that thing Scorpion does in Mortal combat)(the wire will follow enemy like Surprise shot does on sb when you are stealthed it is so that the elite can't miss)

Scorpion Wire already does that though, so it'd be redundant. Besides, if they cannot make ScorpWire work properly, I am not very confident that they can make Snatch work properly.

Also, if you kick after the pull, then it will be in conflict with Hidden Thief since the kick will definitely Reveal you.

So I guess back to the drawing board.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

HERE YOU ARE!!Finally i was worried you wouldnt show up at all :D

So basically the thing isScorpion wire is redundant anyway. Trolly skill tbh, BUT even if Snatch would be basically working like SW it doesnt rly mean we cant have 2 more wiresIt fits in by the terms of Ninja like why wouldnt he be able to have more wires to pull you with. It would open up new builds i dont see issue there.Reveal? Yea and give you 200 power if you play power and run Revealed Training. You could actually use that trait more often.

I agree Hidden Thief could be an issue to an eye of someone less observant in terms of traitsBUT not in my eyes :)You see stealth applies at the end of steal SO it might be simply done the way you stealth ur self after you kick them. You know like you kicked them in the forehead and they lost sight of you. Works in terms of logic and in terms of traits I see no issue here

Also imagine cooperation with Rending shade or Hidden killer. It could open up so many power builds which could actually compete with other PoF elites.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Yeah, that might work if the move the stealth after the kick instead of after the pull. Keep in mind that in order to apply a condition which is pull at this point, it has to deal damage, just look at ScorpWire.

Also imagine cooperation with Rending shade or Hidden killer. It could open up so many power builds which could actually compete with other PoF elites.

ScorpWire is still bugged and not working properly so Snatch will also be full of bugs.

I've also suggested before about adding KD to Mug, but it will conflict with Sleight of Hand since both KD and Daze are considered hard CC. The rule only allows for one hard CC at a time.

So with that said, you throw the wire, deal damage, pull, kick, deal damage, mug damage, stealth. -- WOW!

And speaking of Mug, this will deal damage plus Mug damage which will make this a hard sell.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Yeah, that might work if the move the stealth after the kick instead of after the pull. Keep in mind that in order to apply a condition which is pull at this point, it has to deal damage, just look at ScorpWire.

I was thinking of kick dealing dmg actually. By kicking you deal stuff do dmg and grant urself stealth basically. You know like steal does it. You teleport to enemy and on touch deal dmg and stealth urself. But this is reversed you pull them to you deal dmg and stealth urself. If we talk in terms of Hidden Killer. Like it could do various other effects depending on traits

ScorpWire is still bugged and not working properly so Snatch will also be full of bugs.

It is not bugged but the thing is it works like Revenant Mace 5. You are supposed to aim before your target.It is basically the same thing you just pull your opponent not smack them on the ground at the mid of the lineThe funny thing is they thought for it to work like that. Not like spear of justice but like Mace 5 on Revenant xD I was laughing when i figured it out. So it is bugged only in terms of terrain not in the terms of how it works. SINCE IT would require a lot of coding RIGHT

I've also suggested before about adding KD to Mug, but it will conflict with Sleight of Hand since both KD and Daze are considered hard CC. The rule only allows for one hard CC at a time.

I see what you mean. Yea in that case SoH would be useless except for the CD reduction. HMM. interesting yea. Maybe Daze could be applied on the wire and knockdown on the kick. You know basically daze would interupt enemy since Steal now is unblockable. You would pull them and knock them down dealing dmg etc.

So with that said, you throw the wire, deal damage, pull, kick, deal damage, mug damage, stealth. -- WOW!

In my idea it would be : Wire person (daze/interupt). pull to you, kick apply dmg(enhanced by mug lets say) /steal boons+conversion/ stealth if traited

And speaking of Mug, this will deal damage plus Mug damage which will make this a hard sell.

And it is suppsoed to be that way beacuse power thieves will equip mug then. Dagger training isnt used in neither PvP or WvW so Mug would finally be good to use. Condi ppl could go for dagger and Me for Trap on heals :P

4It is a buff you know And i need ppl to see this and bump it so Anet sees DD's are unhapy with what happened. ;) I am the good guy you know

@derd.6413 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@derd.6413 said:

not everything has to be about DPS

is reaper a downgrade?

The main problem Daredevil had as an elite spec is that it was designed to be a brawler. It turns out that a competent brawler that also has unmatched rotational power is just inherently too much for capture points in this game. That prompted several years of nerfs to every aspect of the elite spec until it was no longer capable of standing toe to toe with anything.

The only remaining use of the 'brawler' spec was on a D/P thief, which doesn't brawl at all - it used the DD spec to be even better at kiting and poking.At this point it's mostly used by D/P because Shadow Arts, which you would expect to have good synergy, is so poor.

So while the Swipe change put the DD out of its misery in sPvP, it did at least address the root of the problem. A brawler is inherently imbalanced if it has unparalleled gank potential, so they ripped out the gank potential. For now, that makes the spec basically bad at everything, but at least in principle there is room to make DD better at fighting people since you sacrifice your top tier ganks to do so.

@Ensign.2189 said:

I agree gank power was big but we are burst spec we do gank. DD doesnt have sustain to survive on a node beside the dodges that were as well nerfed. 600 range is not enogh 900 is okay imo since that is range of a pistol as well. If they want to improve the Thief now and the DD i would change the Swipe as i mentioned to give us tha ability to be a brawler not to gank. We cant fight if enemy is 1,5 range a way like DE or LB boonbeast so to brawl we need them at our location that is why pull would be better than jump to them.

Oh please. Thief hasn't been a burst spec in years. Thieves whine about Backstab only hitting for 6k, then you look at the meta specs and they skip every single damage bonus they can for more utility. The dominant thief specs are super high utility poke specs that can deliver some moderately big hits if given the opportunity.

Everyone is piling on the 900 range swipe because we all know 1200 vs 900 range barely matters.We've played sword enough to know you can jump over most of the important walls with a 900 range port, and a steal at that range would be some grumbling and business as usual. 600 matters. You can't rotate the same way, you can't use the same gank paths and jump over the same walls. That is what opens up some power budget for combat power, not business as usual.