Another Death Magic Proposal — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Another Death Magic Proposal

It's been a bit since I've played, even longer since I've posted, but with the recent patch (for better or for worse) it seems that more significant changes are likely to happen. So, ignoring the sub-par changes to warhorn and focus, I want to throw out some ideas for the Death Magic traitline.

First and foremost, I believe minions should receive a 30% increase to their base health and a 15% increase to their damage. This is due to the proposed removal of Flesh of the Master as well as the removal of Necromatic Corruptions' damage increase.

As for Death Magic itself, I believe in making protection a more significant part and keeping the aspect of "condition management" largely the same. Most minion traits have been consolidated and made to be inclusive of other potential "summoning" skills; these will be referred to as "summons."

Minor:

  • Adept

    • Armored Shroud: Gain bonus toughness while in shroud.
      -Toughness: 180
  • Master

    • Beyond the Veil: Whenever you leave shroud, you and nearby allies gain protection.
      -Protection (2s): -33% Incoming Damage
      -Number of Targets: 10
      -Radius: 600
  • Grandmaster

    • Soul Comprehension: Periodically gain stacks of Soul Comprehension while below the life-force threshold; each stack of Soul Comprehension increases the duration of protection you apply and increases the amount of life-force you gain from nearby deaths.
      -Soul Comprehension (20s): +10% Protection Duration, +5% Life-force Gain
      -Life Force Threshold: 50%
      -Interval: 3s
      -Maximum Stacks: 10

Major:

  • Adept

    • Shrouded Removal: Lose a condition when you enter shroud and every few seconds while you remain in shroud.
      -Conditions removed: 1
      -Interval: 3s
    • Dark Armor: Gain protection while channeling.
      -Protection (1.5s): -33% Incoming Damage
      -Cooldown: 1s
    • Corrupter's Persistence: Take less damage from poisoned foes. Poison nearby foes when you activate a healing skill.
      -Damage Reduced: 10%
      -Poisoned (2 stacks) (5s): -33% Heal Effectiveness
      -Radius: 300
      -Cooldown: 20s
  • Master

    • Necromatic Corruption: Whenever one of your summons die, summon a jagged horror. Additionally, summons take conditions from you. Whenever a summons attacks, it transfers conditions to its target. (10 second cooldown per summon.)
      -Conditions Transferred: 1
      -Interval: 10s
      -Jagged Horror Summon Recharge: 3s
      -Jagged Horror Lifetime Duration: 30s
      -Jagged Horror Maximum: 5
    • Dark Defiance: If you are disabled, gain protection. Incoming condition damage is reduced while you have protection.
      -Protection (3s): -33% Incoming Damage
      -Condition Damage Reduction: 20%
      -Cooldown: 20s
    • Deadly Strength: Gain expertise based on your toughness. Expertise gain doubles while in shroud.
      -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 7%
      -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 14%
  • Grandmaster

    • Death Nova: When you or one of your minions is downed, create a Lesser Poison Cloud. Summon Bone Minions becomes Summon Madness.
      -Summon Madness: Repeatedly summon minions that explode after a period of time if they are not killed (30s cooldown).
      *Explosion Damage: 372 (1.25)
      *Minion Damage: 98 (0.33)
      *Number of Minions Summoned: 8
      *Minion Lifetime: 6s
      *Summon Interval: 1s
      *Radius: 240

    • Unholy Sanctuary: Regenerate health while in shroud. If your life-force is above the threshold, your shroud will activate and grant protection to nearby allies if you would take a lethal blow (30s cooldown).
      -Healing: 130 (0.2)
      -Life Force Threshold: 10%
      -Life Force Threshold while Scourge: 25%
      -Interval: 1s
      -Protection (8s): -33% Incoming Damage
      -Number of Targets: 10
      -Radius: 600

    • Corrupter's Fervor: Inflicting a condition on a foe grants stacking toughness and reduced incoming condition damage.
      -Corrupter's Defense (8s): 30 Toughness, -2% Incoming Condition Damage
      -Maximum Stacks: 10

Feel free to comment or discuss whatever; thanks for reading.

Comments

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 27, 2019

    i get it...you want protection to be Death Magic's thing.

    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    At some point along the line, death magic got shoehorned into this weird defensive role by the community... Because it happened to have a lot of traits that deal with toughness. The changes you proposed is like...meh because necromancer really has no BUSINESS in sharing it's protection to 10 other allies. In other words, the necromancer gains nothing from these "buffs" in solo play (which is where it suffers the most) but gives it buffs in group play, which it already excels at.

    Death Magic doesn't need these kinds of mechanics, but rather, just a more honed version of what death magic is supposed to be...the exploitation of death. If you look at Guild wars 1 as a reference, you can pick up plenty examples of potentially decent changes to the death magic line in order to stick to this theme rather than shoehorning it into some Tempest carbon copy.
    Example1 (Based on Tainted Flesh from GW1) :
    Dark Armor: Foes who hit you and your allies are weakened (5 seconds); Ally's are immune to weakness..
    -Cooldown: 5s
    -Radius: 600

    Example2 (Based on Dark Aura from GW1) :
    Dark Defiance: Every time you are hit by an attack that inflicts a condition, Deal damage to nearby foes.
    Lose 1% of your health (Or Life force if you are in shroud) when dealing damage in this way.
    -Radius 360

    Example3
    -Armored Shroud: (COMPLETE CHANGE) Minions now leave behind corpses. Corpses Last for 240 seconds before decomposting.
    Grants 50 Toughness for every corpse in the area.
    -Toughness: 50
    -Radius: 5000

    Example 4(Based on Order of Undeath)
    Necromatic Corruption: Whenever one of your minions die, summon a jagged horror. For Every corpse in the area, your Jagged Horrors become stronger.
    -Jagged Horror's gain increased movement speed (10%) increased damage (10%) and increased toughness (10%) for every corpse in the area.
    -Jagged Horrors degenerate health (10-5% every 3 seconds for every corpse in the area)
    -Jagged Horror Maximum: 5
    -Effective Range - 5000

    Not only that but the traits need to interact with OTHER traitlines, and not just it's own... a symptom of what i like to call the Elite Spec problem. (Most elite specializations synergize well with itself, and not other traitlines)

    So for example a good synergy would be to change Soul comprehension into:

    Soul Comprehension: Periodically gain stacks of Soul Comprehension while in shroud; Soul Comprehension changes might you apply into protection and increases the amount of life-force you gain from nearby deaths.
    -Soul Comprehension (10s): +5% Life-force Gain
    -Maximum Stacks: 10

    As you can see a change like this instantly benefits by taking the SPITE trait line over Soul Reaping, because of the simple synergy of gaining might in spite will convert to protection when entering shroud. You can do these sorts of synergy changes with almost any skill as long as you understand the implications of those changes.

  • @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    At some point along the line, death magic got shoehorned into this weird defensive role by the community... Because it happened to have a lot of traits that deal with toughness. The changes you proposed is like...meh because necromancer really has no BUSINESS in sharing it's protection to 10 other allies. In other words, the necromancer gains nothing from these "buffs" in solo play (which is where it suffers the most) but gives it buffs in group play, which it already excels at.

    Death Magic doesn't need these kinds of mechanics, but rather, just a more honed version of what death magic is supposed to be...the exploitation of death. If you look at Guild wars 1 as a reference, you can pick up plenty examples of potentially decent changes to the death magic line in order to stick to this theme rather than shoehorning it into some Tempest carbon copy.
    Example1 (Based on Tainted Flesh from GW1) :
    Dark Armor: Foes who hit you and your allies are weakened (5 seconds); Ally's are immune to weakness..
    -Cooldown: 5s
    -Radius: 600

    Example2 (Based on Dark Aura from GW1) :
    Dark Defiance: Every time you are hit by an attack that inflicts a condition, Deal damage to nearby foes.
    Lose 1% of your health (Or Life force if you are in shroud) when dealing damage in this way.
    -Radius 360

    Example3
    -Armored Shroud: (COMPLETE CHANGE) Minions now leave behind corpses. Corpses Last for 240 seconds before decomposting.
    Grants 50 Toughness for every corpse in the area.
    -Toughness: 50
    -Radius: 5000

    Example 4(Based on Order of Undeath)
    Necromatic Corruption: Whenever one of your minions die, summon a jagged horror. For Every corpse in the area, your Jagged Horrors become stronger.
    -Jagged Horror's gain increased movement speed (10%) increased damage (10%) and increased toughness (10%) for every corpse in the area.
    -Jagged Horrors degenerate health (10-5% every 3 seconds for every corpse in the area)
    -Jagged Horror Maximum: 5
    -Effective Range - 5000

    Not only that but the traits need to interact with OTHER traitlines, and not just it's own... a symptom of what i like to call the Elite Spec problem. (Most elite specializations synergize well with itself, and not other traitlines)

    So for example a good synergy would be to change Soul comprehension into:

    Soul Comprehension: Periodically gain stacks of Soul Comprehension while in shroud; Soul Comprehension changes might you apply into protection and increases the amount of life-force you gain from nearby deaths.
    -Soul Comprehension (10s): +5% Life-force Gain
    -Maximum Stacks: 10

    As you can see a change like this instantly benefits by taking the SPITE trait line over Soul Reaping, because of the simple synergy of gaining might in spite will convert to protection when entering shroud. You can do these sorts of synergy changes with almost any skill as long as you understand the implications of those changes.

    I actually agree with a lot of these, especially the idea of Minions leaving corpses and Soul Comprehension's interaction with Spite. I still think protection could have some larger role in Death Magic, but definitely not to the degree I suggested. Even if it's not a necromancer's business, some more "typical" defensive options, like protection, should be available rather than just impairing enemies with weakness, cripple, etc. That being said, I definitely prefer shifting Death Magic into what its supposed to be instead of turning it into some mediocre defensive traitline.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    the bone minion change seems a bit off to me. also a bit too much protection.

    maybe incorporate the new dark aura perhaps? (just spitballing)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:
    the bone minion change seems a bit off to me. also a bit too much protection.

    I dunno, I like the idea Summon Madness, but I don't particularly like Lich Form, which is the only way to access that skill at the moment. I agree that there's too much protection after having another look at it.

    maybe incorporate the new dark aura perhaps? (just spitballing)

    I thought about it, but was unsure where to place it. Maybe incorporate it in place of so much protection?

  • Some changes based on the little bit of feedback I got. It feels somewhat disjointed, but more thematically appropriate.

    Minor:

    • Adept
      • Dark Armor: Minions now leave behind corpses. Corpses Last for 180 seconds before decomposing. Gain stacking bonus Toughness for every corpse in the area.
        -Toughness: 20
        -Maximum Stacks: 25
        -Corpses per Minion: 1
        -Radius: 1800
    • Master
      • Beyond the Veil: Whenever you leave shroud, you gain a Dark Aura and create a corpse.
        -Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Corpses Created: 1
    • Grandmaster
      • Soul Comprehension: Periodically gain stacks of Soul Comprehension while in shroud; each stack of Soul Comprehension increases the amount of life-force you gain from nearby deaths and converts 1 stack of Might into Protection when you leave shroud.
        -Soul Comprehension (10s): +0.5s Protection, +5% Life-force Gain
        -Interval: 3s
        -Maximum Stacks: 10

    Major:

    • Adept

      • Necrotic Hunger: When you enter shroud consume nearby corpses, gaining Might and life-force for each corpse consumed.
        -Might (1 stack) (12s): 30 Power, 30 Condition Damage
        -Life Force: 2%
        -Radius: 600
      • Shrouded Removal: Lose a condition when you enter shroud and every few seconds while you remain in shroud.
        -Conditions removed: 1
        -Interval: 3s
      • Corrupter's Persistence: When you strike a foe, gain Protection for each unique condition afflicting them.
        -Protection per Condition (1s): -33% Incoming Damage
        -Cooldown: 20s
    • Master

      • Necromatic Corruption: Whenever one of your minions die, summon a jagged horror. For each nearby corpse, your minions attack faster up to the maximum; for each minion you control, deal increased damage up to the maximum.
        -Maximum Minion Attack Speed Increase: 15%
        -Maximum Damage Increase: 15%
        -Radius: 1800
        -Jagged Horror Summon Recharge: 3s
        -Jagged Horror Lifetime Duration: 30s
        -Jagged Horror Maximum: 5
      • Dark Defiance: If you are disabled, gain a Dark Aura. Whenever you gain a Dark Aura, nearby allies also gain a Dark Aura.
        -Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Ally Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Number of Targets: 5
        -Radius: 300
        -Cooldown: 30s
      • Deadly Strength: Gain expertise based on your toughness. Expertise gain doubles while in shroud.
        -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 7%
        -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 14%
    • Grandmaster
      • Death Nova: When you or one of your minions is downed, create a Lesser Poison Cloud. Summon Bone Minions now summons 3 minions instead of 2. Each time you rupture a Bone Minion, your Minion Skills are partially recharged.
        -Recharge Reduced: 10%
      • Unholy Sanctuary: Regenerate health while under the effects of an aura. When you gain an aura, damage nearby foes.
        -Healing: 130 (1.2)
        -Damage: 175 (0.3)
        -Number of Targets: 5
        -Radius: 240
        -Interval: 1s
      • Corrupter's Fervor: Inflicting a condition on a foe grants stacking toughness and reduced incoming condition damage.
        -Corrupter's Defense (8s): 30 Toughness, -2% Incoming Condition Damage
        -Maximum Stacks: 10
  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I still want a gm trait that gives 1s of evade or invuln upon entering shroud.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    corrupter's fever just sounds like Parasitic Contagion but with toughness.

    unholy sanctuary is a bit too limited (given that necro doesn't have many ways to gain dark aura)

    i still find it strange that death nova makes you take a specific utility skill.

    the corpse mechanic is interesting but it probably requires a couple of redrafts

    not a fan of Soul Comprehension at all

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

    false, blood magic is the line to keep necro alive

    death magic is just a meme and has no spot in anybuild but gw1 nostalgia

  • @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

    To be clear, these definitions are derived from Guild Wars 1. Death Magic is the manipulation of Death...it involved utilizing “sucking the life of the dead for your personal benefit” cold magic and animating the dead.

    Blood Magic is also about self infliction to cast spells... sacrificial magic, not directly about healing but about using your own health pool to channel powerful magic.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

    To be clear, these definitions are derived from Guild Wars 1. Death Magic is the manipulation of Death...it involved utilizing “sucking the life of the dead for your personal benefit” cold magic and animating the dead.

    Blood Magic is also about self infliction to cast spells... sacrificial magic, not directly about healing but about using your own health pool to channel powerful magic.

    i think they moved the self harm aspect over to curses. (actually most "flavor" purposes have been shuffled around between gw1 and 2)

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    hmm along the themes of tankiness, what about a trait that converts damage to life force? lets say 10-20%.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

    false, blood magic is the line to keep necro alive

    death magic is just a meme and has no spot in anybuild but gw1 nostalgia

    No. Blood is the ally support line.
    Every profession has 5 core lines:

    • 1 that focuses in a form of damage, usually Power - Spite
    • 1 that focuses in another form of damage, usually Condition - Curses
    • 1 that focuses in self-sustain - Death Magic
    • 1 that focuses in party support - Blood Magic
    • 1 that focuses in improving profession mechanics. - Soul Reaping.

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    [..]
    But if you ask me, Death Magic doesn't have anything to do with protection. Death Magic is supposed to be about manipulating the magic of Death to transfigure it into something as useful as the living. This is why Minions are a part of this tree.

    Death Magic is the necromancer's self-defense line. First and foremost, it's about keeping the necromancer alive. One of the 3 main ways to do this is by having minions take the hits. But minions are only one of the 3 lines of traits.

    To be clear, these definitions are derived from Guild Wars 1. Death Magic is the manipulation of Death...it involved utilizing “sucking the life of the dead for your personal benefit” cold magic and animating the dead.

    Blood Magic is also about self infliction to cast spells... sacrificial magic, not directly about healing but about using your own health pool to channel powerful magic.

    That was blood magic in GW1, blood magic included most health sacrifice skills. Curses had a lot too, but not as many. Death magic only had 3, all related to minions.
    In GW2, the sacrificial line is Curses, as it includes the trait related to Corruption skills. Corruption skills replace the concept of blood sacrifice with self-inflicted conditions.

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    hmm along the themes of tankiness, what about a trait that converts damage to life force? lets say 10-20%.

    If it's damage done, that would make more sense in Soul Reaping. Death magic already has Soul Comprehension , that gets more life force from kills.
    Life force from damage in Death Magic would only fit the line if it was from damage received, not done.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    If it's damage done, that would make more sense in Soul Reaping. Death magic already has Soul Comprehension , that gets more life force from kills.
    Life force from damage in Death Magic would only fit the line if it was from damage received, not done.

    I suppose you're right about it fitting in soul reaping better. soul comprehension is so bad tho!
    hmm damage received might work, its dumb to require anything to function based off of you making mistakes, but hey if it works it works.

  • @derd.6413 said:
    corrupter's fever just sounds like Parasitic Contagion but with toughness.

    Doesn't Parasitic Contagion heal you for a percentage of your condition damage? I'm not sure how Corrupter's Fervor is all that similar.

    unholy sanctuary is a bit too limited (given that necro doesn't have many ways to gain dark aura)

    Fair enough, but maybe it could encourage future updates to give necro more finishers.

    i still find it strange that death nova makes you take a specific utility skill.

    The idea was to be similar to Curses' Lingering Curse changing one of the scepter skills. Changing a utility skill might be too specific though. Maybe having a weapon skill be able to summon a jagged horror or affect minions in some way could make Death Nova a little more interactive?

    the corpse mechanic is interesting but it probably requires a couple of redrafts

    No doubt, but once the idea was thrown out it made me think of the necromancer from Diablo 3 and it's corpse mechanic, both of which I enjoyed.

    not a fan of Soul Comprehension at all

    Do you have a suggestion to make it better? I'm assuming it's the interaction with might and protection that's making it unappealing.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dignified Loser.7689 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    corrupter's fever just sounds like Parasitic Contagion but with toughness.

    Doesn't Parasitic Contagion heal you for a percentage of your condition damage? I'm not sure how Corrupter's Fervor is all that similar.

    they both increases the necro's survivability depending on how much condi's he's throwing around

    not a fan of Soul Comprehension at all

    Do you have a suggestion to make it better? I'm assuming it's the interaction with might and protection that's making it unappealing.

    actually i don't like any of it

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • @derd.6413 said:
    they both increases the necro's survivability depending on how much condi's he's throwing around

    Fair enough, I think Corrupter's Fervor and Parasitic Contagion approach it differently enough even if their roles are similar.

    actually i don't like any of it

    Noted. I'll throw around some other ideas for Soul Comprehension to see if they can better fit the bill.

  • @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    No. Blood is the ally support line.
    Every profession has 5 core lines:

    • 1 that focuses in a form of damage, usually Power - Spite
    • 1 that focuses in another form of damage, usually Condition - Curses
    • 1 that focuses in self-sustain - Death Magic
    • 1 that focuses in party support - Blood Magic
    • 1 that focuses in improving profession mechanics. - Soul Reaping.

    Like i said in my initial comment above, This is exactly what i was referring to when i said that the community has appointed death magic to a specific role, in Death Magic's case, to be a "defensive" trait line....appointed by the community.

    Not only does this line of thinking sort of hurt build diversity overall, but it's just simply not a true statement to begin with....it's just really your own perception of what you think Spite is, or what Blood Magic is, based on the idea that the traits roughly align with healing, dealing damage, or giving toughness etc...

    As of right now, and to my knowledge, Guild Wars 2 has no official description of what Death Magic is supposed to be (Or any school of magic for that matter).... So using Gw1 as a base is a good starting point.

    I can go into why the 5 bullet points you've listed is utter croc, but i think most people can figure out why that is without me explaining it.

  • edited April 28, 2019

    Some more changes.

    Minor:

    • Adept
      • Soul Comprehension: Enemies now leave behind corpses that only you can use. Corpses Last for 180 seconds before decomposing or until you are out of range.
        -Corpse per Enemy: 1
        -Maximum Number of Corpses: 30
        -Range: 2400
    • Master
      • Beyond the Veil: Whenever you leave shroud, you gain a Dark Aura and create a corpse.
        -Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Corpse Created: 1
    • Grandmaster
      • Dark Armor: You and your minions deal increased damage and gain bonus toughness for each nearby corpse.
        -Dark Armor (9s): 20 Toughness, +1% Damage Increase
        -Interval: 3s
        -Maximum Stacks: 15
        -Radius: 1800

    Major:

    • Adept

      • Necrotic Hunger: When you enter shroud consume nearby corpses, gaining Might and life-force for each corpse consumed.
        -Might (1 stack) (12s): 30 Power, 30 Condition Damage
        -Life Force: 2%
        -Radius: 600
      • Shrouded Removal: Lose a condition when you enter shroud and every few seconds while you remain in shroud.
        -Conditions removed: 1
        -Interval: 3s
      • Corrupter's Persistence: When you strike a foe, gain Protection for each unique condition afflicting them.
        -Protection per Condition (1s): -33% Incoming Damage
        -Cooldown: 20s
    • Master

      • Necromatic Corruption: Whenever one of your minions die, summon a jagged horror. Minions now leave behind a corpse when they die.
        -Corpse per Minion: 1
        -Jagged Horror Summon Recharge: 3s
        -Jagged Horror Lifetime Duration: 30s
        -Jagged Horror Maximum: 5
      • Dark Defiance: If you are disabled, gain a Dark Aura. Whenever you gain a Dark Aura, nearby allies also gain a Dark Aura.
        -Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Ally Dark Aura (3s): Surrounded by a dark aura that reduces incoming condition damage and causes torment each time you are struck (1-second cooldown per attacker).
        -Number of Targets: 5
        -Radius: 300
        -Cooldown: 30s
      • Deadly Strength: Gain expertise based on your toughness. Expertise gain doubles while in shroud.
        -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 7%
        -Gain Expertise Based on a Percentage of Toughness: 14%
    • Grandmaster
      • Death Nova: When you or one of your minions is downed, create a Lesser Poison Cloud. Your dagger skill Enfeebling Blood causes corpses it strikes to rupture, creating Lesser Poison Clouds.
        -Number of Corpses: 3
      • Unholy Sanctuary: Regenerate health while in shroud. Life-force from nearby deaths heal you, even while in shroud.
        -Healing: 130 (1.2)
        -Healing from Life Force: 100 (0.3)
        -Radius: 900
        -Interval: 1s
      • Corrupter's Fervor: Inflicting a condition on a foe grants stacking toughness and reduced incoming condition damage.
        -Corrupter's Defense (8s): 30 Toughness, -2% Incoming Condition Damage
        -Maximum Stacks: 10
  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2019

    Enemies now leave behind corpses that only you can use. Corpses Last for 180 seconds before decomposing or until you are out of range.

    Hell no! Having corpses remaining behind serve no purpose except making the game more laggy. This will just end up being another visual pollution and a strain on the servers.

    Death magic is, ultimately, the damage reduction traitline and, despite the (too many) minions traits, it is not not far from being "viable". A few minor change could bring it to viablity, there is no need for a whole rework bringing more issues than fixing anything.

    • Putrid defense merely need to additionnaly release a lesser poison cloud (the same as death nova) when your health fall below 50% on a reasonnable ICD.
    • Beyond the veil just need to add a leap finisher when you leave shroud. (to exploit our combo field)
    • Unholy sanctuary need to be reworked granting barrier instead of making you enter the shroud. Which would allow to remove the life force requirement and save your life wether you got life force or not.

    Minion trait can be ignored, at this point it's obvious that ANet is deadset on keeping them for flavor.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Hell no! Having corpses remaining behind serve no purpose except making the game more laggy. This will just end up being another visual pollution and a strain on the servers.

    Good point, I hadn't really considered how the corpses would affect the servers and game as a whole.

    Death magic is, ultimately, the damage reduction traitline and, despite the (too many) minions traits, it is not not far from being "viable". A few minor change could bring it to viablity, there is no need for a whole rework bringing more issues than fixing anything.

    • Putrid defense merely need to additionnaly release a lesser poison cloud (the same as death nova) when your health fall below 50% on a reasonnable ICD.
    • Beyond the veil just need to add a leap finisher when you leave shroud. (to exploit our combo field)
    • Unholy sanctuary need to be reworked granting barrier instead of making you enter the shroud. Which would allow to remove the life force requirement and save your life wether you got life force or not.

    Minion trait can be ignored, at this point it's obvious that ANet is deadset on keeping them for flavor.

    I'm down with these suggestions. Full reworks are fun to think about, but they ultimately tend to be too problematic when trying to incorporate them into a pre-existing system. I still would like some new bells n' whistles in Death Magic, or, at the very least, something other than the current iteration of Soul Comprehension.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @MithranArkanere.8957 said:
    No. Blood is the ally support line.
    Every profession has 5 core lines:

    • 1 that focuses in a form of damage, usually Power - Spite
    • 1 that focuses in another form of damage, usually Condition - Curses
    • 1 that focuses in self-sustain - Death Magic
    • 1 that focuses in party support - Blood Magic
    • 1 that focuses in improving profession mechanics. - Soul Reaping.

    Like i said in my initial comment above, This is exactly what i was referring to when i said that the community has appointed death magic to a specific role, in Death Magic's case, to be a "defensive" trait line....appointed by the community.

    Not only does this line of thinking sort of hurt build diversity overall, but it's just simply not a true statement to begin with....it's just really your own perception of what you think Spite is, or what Blood Magic is, based on the idea that the traits roughly align with healing, dealing damage, or giving toughness etc...

    Its based on the stats the traitlines used to provide as it gave you.

    • Spite gave power and condition duration
    • Curses gave condition damage and percision
    • Death Magic gave boon duration and toughness
    • Blood magic gave healing power and vitality
    • Soul Reaping gave crit damage and increased life force.

    Even to this day each line still does pretty much what it originally did and was made to do. None of this was the community deciding it should be something its just how it was made.

    Each class has lines that are designed the exact same way. When you look at the specialization page the traitlines are ordered this same was for all the classes bar Rev. Even then rev still has lines that follow the same order. Back in the point buy spec system this is how they were ordered in game likely to allow you to pick up and new class and understand that #1 is power, #2 is condi, #3 is defence ,#4 is support and #5 profession mechanic.

  • Lily.1935Lily.1935 Member ✭✭✭✭

    When looking at Death magic there is more than just the 2 themes we see on the wiki. Poison being the other major one that shows up quite a bit. Both Death Nova and Putrid defense have some minor synergy with each other.

    To start, I've learned over the years not to touch the Minion traits. The Forums just don't like that. People here do not want the minions to be changed in any way. Which is fine, its the only solid theme the spec has. If you're building a minion spec, its the only reason to go into death.

    As for the other traits, I feel I could make some simple changes that could greatly improve them.

    • Putrid Defense: Keep the 10% damage reduction but increase poison duration by 20%.
    • Move Banshee's Wail from blood and Bring it over to death. Change Banshee's wail to turn Wail of Doom into Call to the Grave. Call to the grave becomes an Unblockable fear. Warhorn skills grant protection for 2 seconds. Make it a grandmaster and remove Corrupter's Fervor.
    • Remove Deadly Strength and replace it with Withering Aura. Withering Aura casts lesser corrosive poison cloud at your location when you enter shroud. 20 second cool down, lasts 4 seconds.
    • Unholy Sanctuary: Remove the healing in shroud. Grant 150 toughness while in shroud or while under the effect of barrier(doesn't stack). When you take a lethal blow gain 4k barrier and increase your toughness by an additional 150 for 10 seconds. 30 second cool down.

    My personal goal with these changes is to give death some utility. A lot of the problems with death is its lack of real utility. I kept the Dark Defiance as I feel it isn't a bad trait. But I also feel the necromancer really needs another fear. Giving it to warhorn and moving it to death makes sense to me. But I might just be tired. Who knows! As it stands with these changes a player could justify using death magic on a scourge, reaper or even core necromancer. Which is the goal of my changes. Casting a short duration CPC is more scaling defenses that the necromancer desires, unholy Sanctuary has been a meme for a long time, but I feel replacing it with granting barrier is a good solution to the issues we see now. Such as it not activating while on a scourge or failing to activate while below the life force threshold. I moved the bonus toughness from Corrupter's Fervor to it to make the choice quite enticing for players.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Like i said in my initial comment above, This is exactly what i was referring to when i said that the community has appointed death magic to a specific role, in Death Magic's case, to be a "defensive" trait line....appointed by the community.

    uh no pretty sure anet designed the classes that way.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would much rather them focus around making minions more viable and powerful and overhauling deathmagic to faciliatate a minionmancer: Properly in game as right now it feels kind of odd. Flesh golem is ok, The other minions feel strange to me as we had really good minions in guild wars 1 and these pets should use the combat system we currently use.

    I feel ESO kind of got it right where you summon the minion for a brief time and it attacks for you; It has various effects that we could use that would bennefit the necro and make taking them over other skills completely justified.

    For example summon death wraith, summons a wraith at your location who fires projectiles and siphons life off of enemies nearby giving it to the caster for a set time span. Has three charges and follows the necromancer until said time is done; Upon their time in this world expiring they will erupt with a death nova off the necromancer and their essence will contribute to your life force pool.

    I like the Idea of summon maddness, and some of the minion traits but again Death magic should be about summoning and maintaining large amounts (Not too large) of minions who offer things for you. We could have a skill for example that summons skeletons that sit in pairs of three around you, we could have them maybe give us spirits who can join the fray like the ritualist had? The spirits could take the place of wraiths, and simply put that would bring the ritualist into the game in some form as we don't have it, it was close enough to necro to be worked into their basic foundation at least in the form of spirit summoning ontop of minions.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 30, 2019

    I did run into a roaming trailblazer condi scourge in WvW yesterday who had a DM/Curses/Scourge or DM/SR/Scourge setup and was ridiciulously tanky for the pressure he could apply. 100% broken and super easy to play. Basically only killable by a longbow soulbeast.

    That changed my opinion about the uselessness of DM to some extent - at least for WvW and the gear you can run there.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps work in more bone skills into their weapons (Staff, axe and even maybe dagger.) * Rework dagger to be faster; Give it a teleport of some sort. Make it medium range like the axe and let the necromancer be completely based around long to medium range combat. Rework the dagger to have better skills as right now main-hand dagger sucks so bad.
    1. "Bitter strike"=====>"Fangs of Death"====>"Sacrificial Marking". The first two are basic projectiles that hurl energy slashes at the foe; The final is a small class specific DoT that makes bleeding and dagger skills more effective against them for a short time.
    2. "Witness Darkness": Send forth a shadowy mist to an enemy; If struck the enemy will be held in place and done constant ticks of damage for the duration, upon expiring the skill will place "Marked for Sacrifice" Similar to sacrificial marking on the enemy which makes sacrifice more powerful.
    3. "Sacrifice" : you use your dark powers to offer up your foe for sacrifice; If the enemy is struck they are given tons of condition damage depending on the boons they have. As well a sizable burst based on how LOW their health is. If the foe is below ten percent this skill has a chance to summon a spectral wraith; Who then will follow the target and heal the caster for all damage done to them within the next ten or so seconds.

    • Rework staff to be more thematic as right now it feels meh; It's still passable as a weapon and works for what it is intended to be used for. But it does not really mesh well with the current game as it has changed alot.
    1. Bone Spear, Shoot bone spears at your enemy causing bleeding and vulnerability. The bone spears hover around you as long as there is a staff in your hand; And yes they should change based on the legendary you are using.
    2. "Lament" : Send two corpses (Zombies, Skeletons, Something as we have alot of undead models we could use now.) Whom rush a foe and explode on contact applying vulnerability and cripple, upon the second use once the skill is used these corpses explode and cause AOE burst with tons of condis.
    3. "Onto Darkness" Become one with shadow and vanish into the ground, (Could use the soul beast leap back animation from the Devourer's) And slither through the earth to erupt under and enemy and knock them prone. This skill causes weakness, and fears the enemy as death looms before them.
    4. "Call of the grave" You let loose a bone curdling howl as your true nature maifests; Causing torment, fear and weakness as your enemy cowars before you. Any ally near you gets a dark aura.
    5. "Requiem" You call forth the powers of malignant darkness and bombard your foe with shadow visages of their own demise; This swirling mass of black hatred swirls around you and blinds enemies as it does constant damage. Upon expiring it then explodes into a dark nova and applies torment, bleed, burning and vulnerability as the last remnants of your power vacate sight for the moment.

    Then rework death magic to be... better? As on it's own it kind of sucks and really does not bring much to the table; Our minions suck now and they need a rework and or overhaul as well. This trait and utility tree being reworked could work really well with a revamped staff, perhaps even placing staff within the death magic tree as its region of choice as it seems more based around death magic with this rework. Dagger being in Blood magic as it is doesn't feel right as it really has little to do with the theme, making it a weapon that benefits from bleeding with a medium range and a sacrificial skill that offers benefits to the caster fixes this problem.

    1. Offer traits in death magic that if proceed will summon additional minions.
    2. Make minions beneficial with some form of interesting gameplay; Perhaps make them a limited time summon that do specific actions and can't be killed once activated unless the caster dies. Have them stay for a set time and offer their unique skills as a benefit not a deterrent.
    3. Change the heal minion to be a specter who follows the caster and constantly steals health from the enemy and gives it to the caster; As well allies of the caster and boost its heals based on soul-reaping.
    4. Change flesh golem to be more horrific and something you don't want to allow the necromancer to summon.
    5. Add minions to the minion spells and give them more numbers since they are limited; Make each one good for different playstyles, for example bone horrors are good for sending in as expendable running bombs who explode on contact and provide good condition damage. Shadow horrors perhaps are good to send in on targets to cause blindness and prolong an encounter. Flesh wurms are good for being up on walls, and offer good long ranged support with putrid attacks at enemies making it good for when you're in a position to have range.
    6. Opens the door for a curses/hex based elite spec so we can have our curse-mancer from guild wars one, that could also bring in the ritualist spirits. (For example Pain) Or those spirits could be rolled into the necromancer; As one of the minion spells. (Example : Summon four or five random spirits from the spirit world, from a group of five who will fight for you. "Pain, Shadowsong, Destruction, Tranquility, Madness" Each one has its own benefit. Tranquility would heal, madness would cause confusion to the enemy and shadow song would blind.)

    I posted this earlier but since it went along with your post; Might be of use.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Like i said in my initial comment above, This is exactly what i was referring to when i said that the community has appointed death magic to a specific role, in Death Magic's case, to be a "defensive" trait line....appointed by the community.

    uh no pretty sure anet designed the classes that way.

    Just look at all the posts in this discussion. Death Magic suggestions are ALL OVER the place...it's like...one person wants bone-themed zombies, while others suggests giving Death Magic Barriers and share boons like it's a tempest.

    The reason there is so much occlusion over what revamp Death Magic should get is because nobody really seems to understand what death magic is supposed to be. Sure, a precedent was set in the beginning of the game to make Death Magic the defensive styled trait-line, and that they blended and switched around things from guild wars 1 to fit a unique motif. I get that. But again, everyone has lost sight of what Death Magic is/was supposed to be at it's CORE, which is what's stated on the GW1 Wiki.

    Another thing people are forgetting is just class synergy...Giving Death Magic Barrier for example, just has no synergy with any other trait-lines in the necromancer tree. Like most suggestions that have been listed, there is no cross-spec synergies and it makes everything super boring with no build diversity...i mean what builds can you make if all you do is give each trait-line a spec specific ability that has no interaction with any other trait-line? Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    Anyway, i'm not knocking anyone's ideas...Some of them are good perhaps for a separate elite spec, or one off changes on singular skills

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Like i said in my initial comment above, This is exactly what i was referring to when i said that the community has appointed death magic to a specific role, in Death Magic's case, to be a "defensive" trait line....appointed by the community.

    uh no pretty sure anet designed the classes that way.

    Just look at all the posts in this discussion. Death Magic suggestions are ALL OVER the place...it's like...one person wants bone-themed zombies, while others suggests giving Death Magic Barriers and share boons like it's a tempest.

    The reason there is so much occlusion over what revamp Death Magic should get is because nobody really seems to understand what death magic is supposed to be. Sure, a precedent was set in the beginning of the game to make Death Magic the defensive styled trait-line, and that they blended and switched around things from guild wars 1 to fit a unique motif. I get that. But again, everyone has lost sight of what Death Magic is/was supposed to be at it's CORE, which is what's stated on the GW1 Wiki.

    Another thing people are forgetting is just class synergy...Giving Death Magic Barrier for example, just has no synergy with any other trait-lines in the necromancer tree. Like most suggestions that have been listed, there is no cross-spec synergies and it makes everything super boring with no build diversity...i mean what builds can you make if all you do is give each trait-line a spec specific ability that has no interaction with any other trait-line? Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    Anyway, i'm not knocking anyone's ideas...Some of them are good perhaps for a separate elite spec, or one off changes on singular skills

    i think that just speaks to the abysmal state necro's defensive capabilities are in

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    The issue is that unholy sanctuary is tied to the shroud which mean that ANet need to create a skill that act as a "defensive" shroud for the sake of this trait which mean that all skills that act as shroud will be defensive and thus that the balance of the necromancer will always take into account the fact that you will always carry an inate defensive ability justifying lower damage.

    By removing the idea of this trait to use the shroud as your ultime cover, the aim is to open new defensive options for the futur and avoid staying in the same old boring and frustrating patern with the futur e-spec. In fact this could even be a good change for scourge, freeing him from the necessity of this barrier on sand shroud and perhaps opening room for some minor change to allow healthier defensives option for this e-spec (separating the offense from the "main" defense)

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    The issue is that unholy sanctuary is tied to the shroud which mean that ANet need to create a skill that act as a "defensive" shroud for the sake of this trait which mean that all skills that act as shroud will be defensive and thus that the balance of the necromancer will always take into account the fact that you will always carry an inate defensive ability justifying lower damage.

    I don't understand what this means. Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense. And reaper does so much damage it must have the highest burst damage in the game behind power shatter.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    The issue is that unholy sanctuary is tied to the shroud which mean that ANet need to create a skill that act as a "defensive" shroud for the sake of this trait which mean that all skills that act as shroud will be defensive and thus that the balance of the necromancer will always take into account the fact that you will always carry an inate defensive ability justifying lower damage.

    I don't understand what this means. Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense. And reaper does so much damage it must have the highest burst damage in the game behind power shatter.

    Well, you are wrong, reaper is still in the lower tier of the DPS and is far from having an exceptionnal burst. Reaper don't do "so much" damage, he just do low tier damage/burst. Currently berserkers have one shot build, thieves can still pretty much down you in seconds, it's also true for Engineer, revenant and so on.

    The point is that none of the necromancer's builds allow him to be a pure DPS, he will always have it's defensive skill sloted. And what's sad with the necromancer is that in it's case this defensive skill is all he got as defensive skill. So when your main defensive skill is always sloted, there is no way that your build can be considered as a "pure DPS" build which in itself is good enough of a reason for you to have low tier DPS because you have more survivability than the average pure DPS build which mean a more stable DPS.

    Beside you say it, "Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense." Yet you seem to be against a trait that use HP as a defense without going into shroud. Barrier is HP, barrier is ANet answer to replace the traditionnal shroud and thus it is something more fitting for a trait like unholy sanctuary instead of a trait that jeopardise your survivability by sending you into shroud whether it's a good thing or not. Having an extra chunk of HP poping on you will never be a bad thing, however being sent in shroud prematurely and out of your control, locking you out of your utility skill can easily be a "bad thing".

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    The issue is that unholy sanctuary is tied to the shroud which mean that ANet need to create a skill that act as a "defensive" shroud for the sake of this trait which mean that all skills that act as shroud will be defensive and thus that the balance of the necromancer will always take into account the fact that you will always carry an inate defensive ability justifying lower damage.

    I don't understand what this means. Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense. And reaper does so much damage it must have the highest burst damage in the game behind power shatter.

    Well, you are wrong, reaper is still in the lower tier of the DPS and is far from having an exceptionnal burst. Reaper don't do "so much" damage, he just do low tier damage/burst. Currently berserkers have one shot build, thieves can still pretty much down you in seconds, it's also true for Engineer, revenant and so on.

    The point is that none of the necromancer's builds allow him to be a pure DPS, he will always have it's defensive skill sloted. And what's sad with the necromancer is that in it's case this defensive skill is all he got as defensive skill. So when your main defensive skill is always sloted, there is no way that your build can be considered as a "pure DPS" build which in itself is good enough of a reason for you to have low tier DPS because you have more survivability than the average pure DPS build which mean a more stable DPS.

    Beside you say it, "Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense." Yet you seem to be against a trait that use HP as a defense without going into shroud. Barrier is HP, barrier is ANet answer to replace the traditionnal shroud and thus it is something more fitting for a trait like unholy sanctuary instead of a trait that jeopardise your survivability by sending you into shroud whether it's a good thing or not. Having an extra chunk of HP poping on you will never be a bad thing, however being sent in shroud prematurely and out of your control, locking you out of your utility skill can easily be a "bad thing".

    Look, I disagree with almost everything you said.., I’m not gonna go into detail on why, but I’ll just say this;

    Barrier is completely different to shroud because barrier isn’t generated by life force. Barrier is a temporary buffer that dispappears 5 seconds after application. This is not the same as shroud and it’s life force mechanic because once we use a life force skill, we get to keep that life force for however long I would like until I’m ready to use it. And when it disappears, it will disappear when I desire to do so upon entering shroud.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Sanctuary is actually a very good Death Magic Trait that only needs it's mechanics to be more defined...no barrier! just a more complex interaction with shroud (I've mentioned this before, but making it so that when sanctuary is triggered, once you exit shroud under the sanctuary, it converts any remaining Life force into health.)

    The issue is that unholy sanctuary is tied to the shroud which mean that ANet need to create a skill that act as a "defensive" shroud for the sake of this trait which mean that all skills that act as shroud will be defensive and thus that the balance of the necromancer will always take into account the fact that you will always carry an inate defensive ability justifying lower damage.

    I don't understand what this means. Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense. And reaper does so much damage it must have the highest burst damage in the game behind power shatter.

    Well, you are wrong, reaper is still in the lower tier of the DPS and is far from having an exceptionnal burst. Reaper don't do "so much" damage, he just do low tier damage/burst. Currently berserkers have one shot build, thieves can still pretty much down you in seconds, it's also true for Engineer, revenant and so on.

    The point is that none of the necromancer's builds allow him to be a pure DPS, he will always have it's defensive skill sloted. And what's sad with the necromancer is that in it's case this defensive skill is all he got as defensive skill. So when your main defensive skill is always sloted, there is no way that your build can be considered as a "pure DPS" build which in itself is good enough of a reason for you to have low tier DPS because you have more survivability than the average pure DPS build which mean a more stable DPS.

    Beside you say it, "Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense." Yet you seem to be against a trait that use HP as a defense without going into shroud. Barrier is HP, barrier is ANet answer to replace the traditional shroud and thus it is something more fitting for a trait like unholy sanctuary instead of a trait that jeopardise your survivability by sending you into shroud whether it's a good thing or not. Having an extra chunk of HP poping on you will never be a bad thing, however being sent in shroud prematurely and out of your control, locking you out of your utility skill can easily be a "bad thing".

    Barrier shouldn't be placed on core necromancer, it should be something specific to scourge. That is where it was introduced for the necromancer; That is where it should stay at least for now but kitten it out on death-magic as a fix is not anything more than a band-aid. Just remake the tree, comprehensively and ultimately just overhaul it make it something more fitting and place staff in as its weapon and do its rework right along with it. Definitive role for both, definitive abilities and synergy for both and call it good.

    Personally barrier to me is useless, it doesn't really spare you or save you if someone is going to burst you. Really barrier itself isn't in my mind such a big deal as it really to me is only good for a pinch; A small one at that for a fight. Death-magic could get defensive's it can call on, utilities and such for example "Bone armor" And then a trait could turn it into "Tainted Flesh" thus giving you some sort of "Necromancer" Specific defensive that no other class has access too. We have this on other class's rev has defenses and power effected by upkeep the more they have the more they do and the less they take. Really the necromancer has always suffered in my eyes from this strange place; It didn't know what it wanted to be when the game came out and ever so often a glaring issue with that philosophy arises. This is such a time, dancing around the issue won't solve it. A fresh remake of some trait-trees and weapons to bring them to current up-to-snuff performance would be an adequate change and one that would benefit the class down the line.

    You can't rely on Elite spec's to fix issues with the core class; The core itself needs fixing and there are area's it hurts and area's it shines. It's time to stop trying to find a band-aid fix and just let them fix it in its entirety.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    This is not the same as shroud and it’s life force mechanic because once we use a life force skill, we get to keep that life force for however long I would like until I’m ready to use it. And when it disappears, it will disappear when I desire to do so upon entering shroud.

    And what's amazing is that it's exactly why I'm saying that a trait that send you in shroud is bad. Because you don't "get to keep that life force for however long you'd like until I’m ready to use it." It won't "disappear when you desire to do so upon entering shroud."

    This is the main argument against unholy sanctuary sending you in shroud. This is why barrier would much more fitting since it wouldn't consume your precious life force ressource when you are not ready and when you don't want it to do it. With barrier on this trait instead of being sent in shroud, you won't lose your precious ressource, you won't be locked out of your utilities (allowing you to use your heal skill) and you won't be insta kill because you only had 10% life force and shroud don't prevent overflowing damage since already years ago.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Barrier shouldn't be placed on core necromancer, it should be something specific to scourge. That is where it was introduced for the necromancer; That is where it should stay at least for now but kitten it out on death-magic as a fix is not anything more than a band-aid.

    2 points:

    • Barrier is not a scourge only thing, there are already a few professions that get it as core ability (engineer and elementalist).
    • ANet mostly do band-aid fix. So I prefer a well thought band-aid fix to a crappy rework (even if ANet seldom manage to do so).

    Just remake the tree, comprehensively and ultimately just overhaul it make it something more fitting and place staff in as its weapon and do its rework right along with it. Definitive role for both, definitive abilities and synergy for both and call it good.

    Death magic is already close to be competitive as a traitline, it doesn't need much, not to the point of an overhaul. Staff is obviously a life force generating weapon which fit where it's trait stand: in soul reaping. I've said it before, DM is a damage reduction traitline and just need minor changes like these:

    • Putrid defense merely need to additionnaly release a lesser poison cloud (the same as death nova) when your health fall below 50% on a reasonnable ICD.
    • Beyond the veil just need to add a leap finisher when you leave shroud. (to exploit our combo field)
    • Unholy sanctuary need to be reworked granting barrier instead of making you enter the shroud. Which would allow to remove the life force requirement and save your life wether you got life force or not.

    Personally barrier to me is useless, it doesn't really spare you or save you if someone is going to burst you.

    Shroud is the same, at 10% life force it will only prevent 2k incoming damage it won't spare you nor will it save you from a burst.

    Really barrier itself isn't in my mind such a big deal as it really to me is only good for a pinch; A small one at that for a fight. Death-magic could get defensive's it can call on, utilities and such for example "Bone armor" And then a trait could turn it into "Tainted Flesh" thus giving you some sort of "Necromancer" Specific defensive that no other class has access too.

    You're calling for new skills here that don't exist in the current game. Your view on how these skill/effect work is up to your own imagination and tell nothing to the reader. Soaking damage is the way the necromancer defend himself at it's core, it's true for core necromancer and both of it's specialisations. Shroud like barrier, as defensive mechanisms, are just chunks of health points.

    We have this on other class's rev has defenses and power effected by upkeep the more they have the more they do and the less they take. Really the necromancer has always suffered in my eyes from this strange place; It didn't know what it wanted to be when the game came out and ever so often a glaring issue with that philosophy arises. This is such a time, dancing around the issue won't solve it. A fresh remake of some trait-trees and weapons to bring them to current up-to-snuff performance would be an adequate change and one that would benefit the class down the line.

    The necromancer source of suffering is the shroud as it's main defensive mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't expect to keep shroud as it is and get "candies" to ease the suffering. The shroud is flawed at it's core because it wield defense and offense at the same time while being open to all necromancers build. The scourge's shades system add insult to injury by adding control to offense and defense.

    You can't rely on Elite spec's to fix issues with the core class; The core itself needs fixing and there are area's it hurts and area's it shines. It's time to stop trying to find a band-aid fix and just let them fix it in its entirety.

    The core class don't have real "issues" that need to be fixed, except the fact that the main mechanism wield defense and offense at the same time. Again the only issue of the necromancer is it's "2nd health bar" as a main mechanism. There is only 3 way to "fix" the necromancer at it's core:

    • dissociate defense and offense on shroud by making F1 into a "weaponswap" and creating an F2 that basically act like this precious 2nd life bar that some people fear to lose (In short a barrier)
    • building DM into a traitline that give to the shroud this "2nd health bar" and focus on improving it's defensive aspect at the expense of it's offensive aspect (this would be incredibly toxic, thought)
    • remove the "2nd health bar" from the shroud and scatter this lost defense onto the weapon skills and utility skills. (in short speading barrier onto the core skills)

    As long as you keep the inate "2nd health bar" of the shroud, whatever you'll do on the necromancer will be band-aid and the necromancer will never be fixed in it's entirety. Because, by wielding inately having defense and offense at the same time however you build, you can't lean toward an extrem and get a true "glass canon" build or a true "tank" build, you'll always have something in between that's isn't as good as other professions that can build toward an extrem due to their straigthforward inate mechanisms that don't try to do 2 opposites things at the same time.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    This is not the same as shroud and it’s life force mechanic because once we use a life force skill, we get to keep that life force for however long I would like until I’m ready to use it. And when it disappears, it will disappear when I desire to do so upon entering shroud.

    And what's amazing is that it's exactly why I'm saying that a trait that send you in shroud is bad. Because you don't "get to keep that life force for however long you'd like until I’m ready to use it." It won't "disappear when you desire to do so upon entering shroud."

    This is the main argument against unholy sanctuary sending you in shroud. This is why barrier would much more fitting since it wouldn't consume your precious life force ressource when you are not ready and when you don't want it to do it. With barrier on this trait instead of being sent in shroud, you won't lose your precious ressource, you won't be locked out of your utilities (allowing you to use your heal skill) and you won't be insta kill because you only had 10% life force and shroud don't prevent overflowing damage since already years ago.

    @Thornwolf.9721 said:
    Barrier shouldn't be placed on core necromancer, it should be something specific to scourge. That is where it was introduced for the necromancer; That is where it should stay at least for now but kitten it out on death-magic as a fix is not anything more than a band-aid.

    2 points:

    • Barrier is not a scourge only thing, there are already a few professions that get it as core ability (engineer and elementalist).
    • ANet mostly do band-aid fix. So I prefer a well thought band-aid fix to a crappy rework (even if ANet seldom manage to do so).

    Just remake the tree, comprehensively and ultimately just overhaul it make it something more fitting and place staff in as its weapon and do its rework right along with it. Definitive role for both, definitive abilities and synergy for both and call it good.

    Death magic is already close to be competitive as a traitline, it doesn't need much, not to the point of an overhaul. Staff is obviously a life force generating weapon which fit where it's trait stand: in soul reaping. I've said it before, DM is a damage reduction traitline and just need minor changes like these:

    • Putrid defense merely need to additionnaly release a lesser poison cloud (the same as death nova) when your health fall below 50% on a reasonnable ICD.
    • Beyond the veil just need to add a leap finisher when you leave shroud. (to exploit our combo field)
    • Unholy sanctuary need to be reworked granting barrier instead of making you enter the shroud. Which would allow to remove the life force requirement and save your life wether you got life force or not.

      Personally barrier to me is useless, it doesn't really spare you or save you if someone is going to burst you.

    Shroud is the same, at 10% life force it will only prevent 2k incoming damage it won't spare you nor will it save you from a burst.

    Really barrier itself isn't in my mind such a big deal as it really to me is only good for a pinch; A small one at that for a fight. Death-magic could get defensive's it can call on, utilities and such for example "Bone armor" And then a trait could turn it into "Tainted Flesh" thus giving you some sort of "Necromancer" Specific defensive that no other class has access too.

    You're calling for new skills here that don't exist in the current game. Your view on how these skill/effect work is up to your own imagination and tell nothing to the reader. Soaking damage is the way the necromancer defend himself at it's core, it's true for core necromancer and both of it's specialisations. Shroud like barrier, as defensive mechanisms, are just chunks of health points.

    We have this on other class's rev has defenses and power effected by upkeep the more they have the more they do and the less they take. Really the necromancer has always suffered in my eyes from this strange place; It didn't know what it wanted to be when the game came out and ever so often a glaring issue with that philosophy arises. This is such a time, dancing around the issue won't solve it. A fresh remake of some trait-trees and weapons to bring them to current up-to-snuff performance would be an adequate change and one that would benefit the class down the line.

    The necromancer source of suffering is the shroud as it's main defensive mechanism. Nothing more, nothing less. You can't expect to keep shroud as it is and get "candies" to ease the suffering. The shroud is flawed at it's core because it wield defense and offense at the same time while being open to all necromancers build. The scourge's shades system add insult to injury by adding control to offense and defense.

    You can't rely on Elite spec's to fix issues with the core class; The core itself needs fixing and there are area's it hurts and area's it shines. It's time to stop trying to find a band-aid fix and just let them fix it in its entirety.

    The core class don't have real "issues" that need to be fixed, except the fact that the main mechanism wield defense and offense at the same time. Again the only issue of the necromancer is it's "2nd health bar" as a main mechanism. There is only 3 way to "fix" the necromancer at it's core:

    • dissociate defense and offense on shroud by making F1 into a "weaponswap" and creating an F2 that basically act like this precious 2nd life bar that some people fear to lose (In short a barrier)
    • building DM into a traitline that give to the shroud this "2nd health bar" and focus on improving it's defensive aspect at the expense of it's offensive aspect (this would be incredibly toxic, thought)
    • remove the "2nd health bar" from the shroud and scatter this lost defense onto the weapon skills and utility skills. (in short speading barrier onto the core skills)

    As long as you keep the inate "2nd health bar" of the shroud, whatever you'll do on the necromancer will be band-aid and the necromancer will never be fixed in it's entirety. Because, by wielding inately having defense and offense at the same time however you build, you can't lean toward an extrem and get a true "glass canon" build or a true "tank" build, you'll always have something in between that's isn't as good as other professions that can build toward an extrem due to their straigthforward inate mechanisms that don't try to do 2 opposites things at the same time.

    Your wrong about your way of thinking about shroud and Unholy Sanctuaries cabilities. Firstly, Unholy Sanctuary is a Reset ability. It allows you to enter shroud when shroud is on cooldown, and gives you enough time for your skills which are also on cooldown to be off cooldown when you exit again. That’s the entire point of the trait. If you have no life force when getting your sanctuary popped, your simply using the trait wrong. You should be gaining life force as much as you can as soon as possible for the highest life force uptime, whether it’s being used or not, if sanctuary became a barrier it would just be sooo much worse and nobody would ever use it unless the barrier granted has an obscene value.

    As for shroud itself...I see no issues with the shroud mechanic and it’s sbsolutly fundamental to Reaper and it’s playstyle. It’s a defensive and aufensive mechanic...why would you want to take it to an extreme? What it lacks in extremity it makes up for in versatility.

  • foste.3098foste.3098 Member ✭✭✭

    Tbh they should decouple death magic from protection and move that aspect of necro to blood magic as that trait line already has some ties to boons. After that rework soul comprehension to something actually useful during fights, it can be a simple rework as : ''when an enemy within x radius around you drops below y% hp, gain z amount of lifeforce. ω seconds icd per enemy''.
    Then enhance the minion traits, put in new traits that buff up the necro when applying conditions, basically make traits that can lead to new bruiser style builds when combined with corrupter's fervor, and rework the minion skills to something actually useful.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:
    Your wrong about your way of thinking about shroud and Unholy Sanctuaries cabilities. Firstly, Unholy Sanctuary is a Reset ability. It allows you to enter shroud when shroud is on cooldown, and gives you enough time for your skills which are also on cooldown to be off cooldown when you exit again. That’s the entire point of the trait. If you have no life force when getting your sanctuary popped, your simply using the trait wrong. You should be gaining life force as much as you can as soon as possible for the highest life force uptime, whether it’s being used or not, if sanctuary became a barrier it would just be sooo much worse and nobody would ever use it unless the barrier granted has an obscene value.

    As for shroud itself...I see no issues with the shroud mechanic and it’s sbsolutly fundamental to Reaper and it’s playstyle. It’s a defensive and aufensive mechanic...why would you want to take it to an extreme? What it lacks in extremity it makes up for in versatility.

    Let's just say that our opinions are opposite and we can't agree with each other. You are satisfied with versatility and I'm unsatisfied with the impossibility to build toward an extrem which is something required to try and enter the fabled "meta". I'm tired of the profession being a sidekick in PvE, aware that the "versatility" given by the shroud is the reason behind it and you're probably fine with how the necromancer work thanks to the shroud in WvW zergs where life force return to you at an insane pace. In the middle their is PvP and generally small scale fight/roaming, in which the life force gen suffer as much as it suffer in end game PvE (read raid, fractal or even dungeon).

    NB: One important point thought, You do not choose to pop your Unholy sanctuary, it's forced on you. This is not a trait on which you have enough control to be able to determine whether someone use it right or wrong. Often you'll use your shroud to protect yourself, then be bursted out of shroud to see yourself sent again in shroud with barely enough life force gained. And then you're dead in 1-2 hit. And this is the main reason this trait is already seldom used. As for the value of barrier, granted that Engineer get a similar trait on an expert spot that already stand at 3k base, that is already better than the almost 2k that 10% life force give us. In fact the could replace Unholy sanctuary effects by emergency elixir effects and it would already be a huge gain for the necromancer (the 3.5s of protection coupled to 3k barrier call for great synergy with dark defiance. As for the scourge he would gain it's own benefit from it with abrasive grit, yet no life force cost. And that's just the might of a mere "master trait", granted that "grandmaster traits" usually bring things up a notch).

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If Death Magic had one or two non-minion traits that could do something useful for allies' sustain, dps, or provided a slightly valuable utility, then it would see more use.

    It does not, and should not, heal or resurrect but the lack of any group benefit on a bunker trait line is damning.

  • JusticeRetroHunter.7684JusticeRetroHunter.7684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    One important point thought, You do not choose to pop your Unholy sanctuary, it's forced on you. This is not a trait on which you have enough control to be able to determine whether someone use it right or wrong. Often you'll use your shroud to protect yourself, then be bursted out of shroud to see yourself sent again in shroud with barely enough life force gained. And then you're dead in 1-2 hit. And this is the main reason this trait is already seldom used.

    I know we disagree, really I’m not trying to belittle your argument.

    But ya this is what I’m trying to get at, is that the above statement is the wrong way to use the trait. If you enter shroud, get bursted in shroud to the point where not only your LF gets depleted but also your health to the point where US then gets procced, it just shows that the trait is not being utilized properly.

    In order for the trait to benefit you, you need life force. If you arnt generating life force, than your not playing the class, and in turn, utilizing the trait properly.

    It is used seldomly for the reason you stated, but it’s because people don’t know how to extort the class and the trait to it’s potential.

    When you think about it it’s actually a very powerful trait...as the cooldown is only 30 seconds... which means you just need to resustain fo an additional 30 seconds in order to get your “2nd chance” back again. And that’s really how it has to be played, as a second chance at resustaining the fight.

    I personally use the trait, and have been using it for many months now. Even I don’t use it to it’s full potential but it’s allowrd me to 1vX as a power reaper roamer. it’s so strong because if you DO have full life force, and don’t allow yourself to get bursted in shroud, then you can drag your shroud for 20 seconds, and only need an additional 10 seconds before you get the traits effect back. In this way it can be controlled to an extent where you constantly reset in a fight, even when shroud is on cooldown.

  • Akrasia.5469Akrasia.5469 Member ✭✭

    I think I posted a while back that I believe that a new elite specialization focusing on minions is the way to go. ANet had a good idea with ES but certain aspects of classes were already in place and they didn't know what to do with core. If elite specializations were in from the beginning Minion Master and Vampire would have likely been ES and Death Magic NOT be minion focused though it could synergize. Death Magic could have lot of both offensive and defensive applications beyond minions. Many were mentioned in this thread already so I won't elaborate too much more. A few cool themes around death are aging (weakness), disease (poison), and undeath (invulnerability). I'd also like DM to exploit the down state a lot more. Trait in things like triple down state health, halve down skill cooldowns, down state gets to keep boons etc. Necros with DM should be more powerful closer to death. Thus in PvP WvW it would be dangerous just to down a Necro indiscriminately. DM should also trait ways to boost themselves based on the number of downed or dead in the area. Like get a might and/or 2 sec protection for every corpse or downed player.

    As it is now minions take 1/3 of the DM traits and players are pigeon holed into DM if they want to play with minions. A MM elite would give players options on how they play MM. For example they could play defensively like minons are now. They could play offensively with minions taking lifeforce from you to fuel more powerful attacks. You could have suicide minon builds around death nova. There could be shortlived minions that duplicate on killing enemies. Instead of shroud an MM could have a better Lich form without a timer but based on LF.

    In conclusion, Death Magic should be used for offensive and defensive direct applications of the death theme and Minion Master should be an elite specialization with new minion control skills, traits etc.

  • Akrasia.5469Akrasia.5469 Member ✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, you are wrong, reaper is still in the lower tier of the DPS and is far from having an exceptionnal burst. Reaper don't do "so much" damage, he just do low tier damage/burst. Currently berserkers have one shot build, thieves can still pretty much down you in seconds, it's also true for Engineer, revenant and so on.

    The point is that none of the necromancer's builds allow him to be a pure DPS, he will always have it's defensive skill sloted. And what's sad with the necromancer is that in it's case this defensive skill is all he got as defensive skill. So when your main defensive skill is always sloted, there is no way that your build can be considered as a "pure DPS" build which in itself is good enough of a reason for you to have low tier DPS because you have more survivability than the average pure DPS build which mean a more stable DPS.

    Beside you say it, "Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense." Yet you seem to be against a trait that use HP as a defense without going into shroud. Barrier is HP, barrier is ANet answer to replace the traditionnal shroud and thus it is something more fitting for a trait like unholy sanctuary instead of a trait that jeopardise your survivability by sending you into shroud whether it's a good thing or not. Having an extra chunk of HP poping on you will never be a bad thing, however being sent in shroud prematurely and out of your control, locking you out of your utility skill can easily be a "bad thing".

    Reaper is getting over 31K sustained DPS and 82K bursts. Here's a video testing DPS due to the change with Soul Eater.
    Necro needs a PR agent to get away from the low tier stigma and get fixes that it actually needs like sustain and mobility. It doesn't need much at the moment but does need more consistent use by top tier players so that the class can properly synergise in the areas that people say Necro doesn't qualify for. No unplayed class will find it's place. Elite players who shun necro as noobie class is what holds the class back the most.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @Akrasia.5469 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Well, you are wrong, reaper is still in the lower tier of the DPS and is far from having an exceptionnal burst. Reaper don't do "so much" damage, he just do low tier damage/burst. Currently berserkers have one shot build, thieves can still pretty much down you in seconds, it's also true for Engineer, revenant and so on.

    The point is that none of the necromancer's builds allow him to be a pure DPS, he will always have it's defensive skill sloted. And what's sad with the necromancer is that in it's case this defensive skill is all he got as defensive skill. So when your main defensive skill is always sloted, there is no way that your build can be considered as a "pure DPS" build which in itself is good enough of a reason for you to have low tier DPS because you have more survivability than the average pure DPS build which mean a more stable DPS.

    Beside you say it, "Shroud is shroud...the HP itself is the defense." Yet you seem to be against a trait that use HP as a defense without going into shroud. Barrier is HP, barrier is ANet answer to replace the traditionnal shroud and thus it is something more fitting for a trait like unholy sanctuary instead of a trait that jeopardise your survivability by sending you into shroud whether it's a good thing or not. Having an extra chunk of HP poping on you will never be a bad thing, however being sent in shroud prematurely and out of your control, locking you out of your utility skill can easily be a "bad thing".

    Reaper is getting over 31K sustained DPS and 82K bursts. Here's a video testing DPS due to the change with Soul Eater.
    Necro needs a PR agent to get away from the low tier stigma and get fixes that it actually needs like sustain and mobility. It doesn't need much at the moment but does need more consistent use by top tier players so that the class can properly synergise in the areas that people say Necro doesn't qualify for. No unplayed class will find it's place. Elite players who shun necro as noobie class is what holds the class back the most.

    But however you look at it, it's still on the low side of the spectrum of what professions can do. There is definitely a plus for the stability of the dps due to the inate defense which "Elite players who shun necro as noobie class" don't take into account, but that's all there is to it. Other professions will break throught the 100k burst and have an overall dps which is at an average of 33-34k. This is just being objective, the inate defense of the shroud is a boon for PvP/WvW mainly and a shackle for the End game PvE due to how it is designed.

    I'll also disagree with you on the point of sustain and mobility. Both would be "appreciated" but not "needed" and, again, both would benefit PvP/WvW while having little to no impact on PvE. The necromancer is balanced in PvP/WvW, he just don't have the tools to be a good duelist but as soon as he got support he is fine (sometime even a bit too strong: FB/Scourge duo). Whereas in PvE, outside of the gimmicks (already nerfed) the necromancer always fall short of expectations.

    An elite spec can give the necessary tools for the necromancer to be a duelist, but it can't free the necromancer from it's 2nd health bar shackle in PvE. ANet could have given scourge the tool necessary to tank instead of the ability to deal damage so that scourge would have been able tank and support at the same time which would have make him valuable in PvE, but they choose not. Reaper used to be tankier but again, being tanky and dealing damage can be done by any profession and in the grand scheme of thing it's still not what was needed for PvE as it is designed while still being "ok" for PvP and mostly WvW zergling.

    I have no doubt that the next e-spec will continue to follow this patern with "shroud skills" packing everything making the necromancer "ok" for PvP and strong in WvW but leaving it at the edge of being able to compete with other profession in PvE. The way those shroud skills will be designed can totally lean toward more personal sustain and/or mobility. A single ground targeted 900 range teleport on one of the F skills, if we follow scourge's shroud skills patern, would already be more than enough to increase the necromancer viability as a duelist and even make it close to be "OP", even a F skill that allow to retreat backward like mesmer's staff skill#2 would be a huge leap in survivability and a step toward being a duelist. But all those thing are just dog fart in end game PvE where you look for professions that can build toward extrems in order to form a party that reach extrems.

    players are pigeon holed into DM if they want to play with minions.

    Again I disagree with this statement of yours. When I play minion, personnally I don't want to take DM, BM is a lot more usefull with minions in my opinion. DM minion traits make minions to resilient which do not fit with death nova which need squishy minions to show it's full potential. Thus I favor BM which often give 50% more damage to my minions and grant me a lot more sustain/survivability than the unnecessary toughness which is thrown at you in DM (extra toughness that are not taken into account by trait/food that convert toughness into something else because it's "temporary toughness").

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What if...

    ... Shrouded Removal also ate conditions from allies when the Necro has none left?
    ... Putrid Defense also functioned a little like Plague Signet in that it would transfer one condition from an ally every 3 seconds but convert it into LF
    ... Soul Comprehension increased the Necromancer's precision by 75 for each up to 5 allies within a 120 radius instead of its current function?
    ... Dark Defiance also gave protection to up to 4 allies within a 120 radius?
    ... Deadly Strength also gave concentration based on toughness in addition to power?
    ... Corruptor's Fervor would additionally give the Necromancer and 4 allies in a 240 radius 1 second of retaliation on inflicting a condition on an enemy on a 5 second cool down?
    ... Unholy Sanctuary would add a player-centered 120 radius Lesser Mark (dark field) when exiting shroud that, when triggered by an enemy, gives up to 5 players fury for 1.5 seconds and does some tiny amount of damage on the enemy?

    I love these "fix Death Magic" threads because there are so many ways to do that.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.