Guardians and other classes

This has been the life of a Hammer guard after the countless nerfs to the already sub-par spec. ArenaNet published the patch notes with a promise of diversity, while effectively killing every single damage build Guardian could run.They nerfed Hammer Guard over half a year ago now by reducing it's burst, and while I agree that the burst was very high and that it might not be fun to be one shot (not actually one shot, but spiked down), they still keep classes like Sic'Em Soulbeasts and one shot Chronos in the game. Now even introducing Berserker with their 35k+ GS primal.

It's the inconsistency that gets me. You have classes that has been in the meta for over a year straight now, see Rev (which is a straight upgrade to core guard), Firebrand and Holosmith. All very obnoxious to deal with in their own respects.I will eventually get around to posting an in-depth explanation of what my thoughts are about the current state of Core Guardian and Dragonhunter.

As of right now though, the class is just so outmatched by just about every other spec.

A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

@"Snellibee.2761" said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

I think that's why he compared the "one-shotness" to Sic em Soulbeasts and Yolochrono - both can use teleports or stealth to literally oneshot people and have existed for a long time or still exist respectively.

And I kind of agree. Core guard nerfs seem ridiculous compared to what other builds are allowed to do.

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

The only way for a guardian to actually kill something is with one shots though. Due to the immense lack of mobility and over reliance on blocks and active defense. We are currently at a point where a warrior dodge roll is more threatening than the highest hitting hammer skill, which is traited for even more damage through both radiance and virtues.

I don't complain about them removing the one shot factor (no one above 1700 got one shot anyway). I just wish we got something in return for the continued nerfs to just about every aspect of the builds.

The problem was that Core Guard was strongly dependent on RI as a totally overtuned trait to make up for other mechanics being largely meh and outclassed. It's good RI is tuned down but there should be compensations. For example the F1-F3 mechanics on Core Guard are basically still 2012 power level and a sad joke compared to what FB or even DH get out of it. DH has decent F1-F3 mechanics and decent survivability but traps/LB just don't do enough pressure for to keep up with other builds.

So I'd say reworking the Virtues for Core Guard has some potential to make the class more viable, while DH probably just needs more damage potential (utility and survivability are fine imo).

Burn builds are a semi viable options but stay fairly niche cause the lack of cover condis makes counterplay quite easy.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

I pointed reckless impact and how ridiculous that it is that it is both unblockable and it outclasses every mirage ambush damagewise (Adding both the power and condition elements of them together) even with Infinite Horizon and 3 clones except staff despite it being a minor trait and ambush attacks being an elite spec mechanic and everyone called me an asshole and said I was lying about being able to get damage out of it despite bringing screenshot evidence.

This has been the life of a Hammer guard after the countless nerfs to the already sub-par spec. ArenaNet published the patch notes with a promise of diversity, while effectively killing every single damage build Guardian could run.They nerfed Hammer Guard over half a year ago now by reducing it's burst, and while I agree that the burst was very high and that it might not be fun to be one shot (not actually one shot, but spiked down), they still keep classes like Sic'Em Soulbeasts and one shot Chronos in the game. Now even introducing Berserker with their 35k+ GS primal.

It's the inconsistency that gets me. You have classes that has been in the meta for over a year straight now, see Rev (which is a straight upgrade to core guard), Firebrand and Holosmith. All very obnoxious to deal with in their own respects.I will eventually get around to posting an in-depth explanation of what my thoughts are about the current state of Core Guardian and Dragonhunter.

As of right now though, the class is just so outmatched by just about every other spec.

Yeah, I agree with you. I think the righteous instincts nerf was a bad move overall in hindsight that made conquest less interesting to play overall, similar to the portal nerf in that regard. I think from a flavor perspective, having power guardians who fulfill the gameplay archetype of the paladin that smites evil and it being an excellent solo queue build for Free 2 Play accounts is extremely important for getting new players into GW2 PvP. Their presence have almost completely died out and it's made conquest a less interesting and dynamic game as a result, especially since Firebrand really only shines with coordinated players you can rely on so you don't see a lot of them in ranked either.

Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation. I think Elementalists also really need a really potent Righteous Instincts style trait so they can run Valkyrie amulet as well. Something like:

Burning Heart:Gain 1 point of Precision for each point of vitality from your equipment. This precision is subtracted by the healing power from your equipment.

I think something like this might be needed for elementalists to get them to be able to fullfill the niche of being the sorcerer of this swords and sorcery RPG game. Potentially becoming that big damage carry role they've never been able to really fill. Plus it will prevent builds like the current SD weaver from combining that much free precision with SD Weaver's current ridiculous sustain.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Em... Why core should be viable? At least its not what Anet want.Look at mesmer balance patches, they nerf only core weapons and traits(actually they just deleted 2 traits last patch) to the point its not worth playing anymore.About DH ... Its just not powercrept as classes you mention. Just hope they "rework" DH as they did with a scrapper

@mortrialus.3062 said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

Power Creep is less of a concern than a healthier vibrant meta overall. It's generally better to buff under represented characters than nerf over represented characters unless they're outright breaking the game from a player psychology perspective.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

If I understood you correctly, you want the game to become rock em sock em robots because that'd be perfectly balanced right?

It's kind of hilarious how quickly rushed straight into hyperbolic strawman arguments.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

You're traited for it but are yo also geared for it? Afaik A lot of Guardians ran Valkyrie wich isn't exactly a high dmg amulet. All these other build that do high power damage run Berzerker or Marauder amulets for maximum damage.

You can't expect to do dps damage if you're not using dps amulets or runes

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

Guardians used to cap (close to anyway) crit chance with Valkyrie amulet, while having 900 ferocity (same as berserker). So that damage equaled what they would have had if they ran berserker.Now, with the nerf you're forced into Marauder to crit cap, which not only loses you 3.5k life. But also around 450 ferocity.

The damage on the weapon skills also got nerfed. The damage on the traits too, smiters boon (the irony) and glacial hammer both lost pretty much all their damage.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

I think it's fair that you actually need a crit amulet in order to be able to crit, and not have a trait wich allows you to completely ignore precision on an amulet. Now guardians are equal in that they need the right amulet for the role they want to have. However I do not say that I feel like Guardian is in a right spot right now, just saying that's it good what they did.

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

Shouts of guard are also pretty much 2012.Look at how much warrior shouts got buffed:

-Shake it off went from cleansing 1 condition to cleansing 6 conditions + 2 loads-for greater justice got buffed to 12 might-on my mark reveals now + 2 loads

Meanwhile guard shouts have 30+ secs cds with shitty effects.Meditations are basically the only way a non bunker guard gets survivability with.

Active effects of virtues should also have a much higher value. Especially f3 is a joke, without the trait it's not even a stun break lol.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

Power creep is the opposite of that. Power creep is effectively buffing to a bad state, just like nerfing too much gets you to a bad state. Using your video example, Street Fighter II Rainbow is what GW2 is becoming. Things are ridiculous over the top. It has some interesting ideas, but just aren't fun to play against after the initial "wow" factor. The way you fix absurd power creep is to keep some of the good ideas but add proper risk vs. reward.

GW2 needs nerfs to the power creep far more than we need buffs to bland things. We can deal with half the skills being useless for a while as long as the rest is fun and interesting. AOE death in under 2 seconds (lol arc divider) or evade "forever" isn't fun. How do you buff in order to fix that? The answer is that you have to nerf over-performing abilities.

Bottom line:Guardian is in a decent state and arguably needs some small nerfs. However, other things need pretty hefty nerfs.

@Megametzler.5729 said:

@"Snellibee.2761" said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

I think core guard was nerfed due to a few complaints about buying the elite specs and core guard was just as strong as elite specs, there was a thread not long before the nerf where people were waging war over if its fair that core builds could be as strong as elite builds.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

Rev doesn't need nerfs, don't even have much problems with holo's and soulbeast as of late either

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

Let me guess rev doesnt need nerfs only because you main it ? Makes sense

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

Let me guess Rev needs nerfs because you're bad against it? Makes sense

Learn what skills Revenant has and the patterns it will be used in and you won't have any trouble anymore

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Righteous Instincts should be unnerfed. It was a bad change that objectively lessened build diversity and representation.Why should they reintroduce busted traits? How about they tone down powercreep brough with PoF/HoT? No? Okay

I agree, but that is not what Anet is doing. Instead they are selectively (intentionally or not) removing builds for specific classes. Holo, soul beast and SB are the biggest offenders by a mile and yet we’re not touched or received tiny nerfs so far.

Guardian issues go beyond hammer and RI. Guardian by design is still sitting in 2012, with the exception of FB. Low HP pool and slow cuz it has blocks and heals. But in terms of damage avoidance nowadays, it is only ahead of necro. And damage avoidance was the name of the game for guardian sustainability back in the day.

RI was a bandaid that brought guardian to PoF power creep level, by resolving the HP pool issue and providing a high damage output, which was the only deterrent against focus fire. The RI nerf just put guardian builds (anything but FB) completely outside the meta.

In addition, the low HP pool made sense when the highest damage that can be pulled in 1-2 sec was around 10k. Most power classes now can dish 20-30k within that timeframe. And this applies to guardian, ele and thief. All three had issues being competitive, primarily due to the HP pool.

Guardian issues cannot be resolved with bandaids. Major design reworks are needed.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Snellibee.2761 said:A lot of guardians seem to compare Revenants burst capabilities with what Guardian used to be able to do but got nerfed for it. Revenants burst is possible to avoid even if you didn't see the Revenant coming. This is because both shadowsteps do barely any damage on the initial hit, deathstrike is a two part skill meaning the skill that does high damage will only activate when you hit your shadowstep, making it possible to dodge the burst.

The problem is how Guardian could precast very hard hitting skills and mid-cast shadowstep to an opponent resulting in insane damage instantly without being able to react. Besides the nerfed Deadeye no class can do this. I've gotten spiked by power mesmers before in a similar matter but theres not many running around like that so the build probably isn't too good to be viable.

Any class or build that can kill someone quicker than allows you to react is pretty busted. Right now I don't feel like this sudden one shot is happening anymore wich is for the better.

That's a big assumption you made there kiddo. So you're telling me that Rev has been OP for longer than a year yet forums are not flooded with "nerf rev" threads? If Rev is so OP why do I see so many people being trash at Revenant? Revenant is one of the few classes that can't carry a player by its build and it shows.

PS: Can you quote all these "top players" saying Revenant is broken? Because afaik I've heard players like Sindrener say the opposite.