This is the better version, let that sink in

On the reveal stream way back the devs said Renegade had some major reworks. Can you imagine how bad it might have been before the changes? Just wow.

They probably ran out of time and rushed this iteration though. Feels very uninspired.

There is nothing wrong with it, though I imagine those of you who played it all through HoT are bored with it being the same old hat.

@Zin.6170 said:There is nothing wrong with it,

It's very bad in wpvp and spvp. Shortbow is terrible. It's nothing special in open world and solo (requires gimmick builds to do okay - and Herald/Rev are better). On the bright side at least it is good at Raids, but sadly this isn't exactly a big Raiding game.

Meanwhile Scourge is a completely new playstyle and is good to great in ALL game modes....if not great to amazing.

@Substatic.6958 saidMeanwhile Scourge is a completely new playstyle and is good to great in ALL game modes....if not great to amazing.

Scourge is also clearly overtuned and therefore a terrible frame of reference. Any spec that is ideal for all game modes is imbalanced, and we shouldn’t expect Renegade to be any different. It’s great in raid and a boost in some WvW situations.

A better argument is that it constitutes virtually no change in gameplay despite such changes being kind of the whole point of elite specs, but I digress.

@Ardent Heretic.8216 said:

@Substatic.6958 saidMeanwhile Scourge is a completely new playstyle and is good to great in ALL game modes....if not great to amazing.

I guess, it's just that raiding in this game is so niche and bearbones. An elite mostly only good at raids is odd. Which others are like that?

Soulbeast is good at plenty of stuff too.

@Substatic.6958 said:

@Ardent Heretic.8216 said:

@Substatic.6958 saidMeanwhile Scourge is a completely new playstyle and is good to great in ALL game modes....if not great to amazing.

True, but Rev already has strong, Meta builds for WvW. We needed help in sPvP and Raids at the time the balance pass was made, and we got a raid boost. PvP is still to come, but I think the problem there has more to do with limitations in build diversity than any level of power. Rev PvP is predictable and easy to counter considering your opponents know your entire skill bar the moment you legend swap for the first time.

I'm a bit torn myself. A lot of the things on the renegade don't work, but the ones that do powercreep the spec to a consistent 37k DPS solo. In a group against a large target, if our traits were better and our summons were consistent the damage could be insane.

Power herald is sitting at 28k with food, btw.

Confused on what you expected. Herald was already very good in sPVP (though bunker ventari got nerfed) and has been core in WvW meta comps. They were laughed at for fractals and mediocre for raids for a long time. Now they're exceptionally good (top effective dps beyond weaver maybe?? rotation is dragon hunter level easy and AP is great) in raids and good in fractals.

@Evolute.6239 said:Confused on what you expected. Herald was already very good in sPVP (though bunker ventari got nerfed) and has been core in WvW meta comps. They were laughed at for fractals and mediocre for raids for a long time. Now they're exceptionally good (top effective dps beyond weaver maybe?? rotation is dragon hunter level easy and AP is great) in raids and good in fractals.

What is the very good sPvP build? Is it the bunker?

@witcher.3197 said:On the reveal stream way back the devs said Renegade had some major reworks. Can you imagine how bad it might have been before the changes? Just wow.

They probably ran out of time and rushed this iteration though. Feels very uninspired.

Just because it could have been worse doesn't make a bad product any better. That's as pointless as telling homeless person today that things were way worse for people in their predicament in the 50s or 60s.

On another note, Renegade is fine. It largely did not provide Condi Revs a meaningful choice when considering the specialization. We are instead given a non-choice of picking core Condi Rev, or the new spec that gives us the extra flexibility of ranged combat when some genius drops a Flux Bomb right on top of the boss.

Only thing wrong with Renegade is that shortbow, and F3 are kitten.

I can see them buffing F3 somehow maybe, but ranged weapons for some reason are always shit in this game, it's like an actual design goal to make them vastly inferior to melee, look at deadeye I feel sorry for them even though it was predicted.

@Evolute.6239 said:Confused on what you expected. Herald was already very good in sPVP (though bunker ventari got nerfed) and has been core in WvW meta comps. They were laughed at for fractals and mediocre for raids for a long time. Now they're exceptionally good (top effective dps beyond weaver maybe?? rotation is dragon hunter level easy and AP is great) in raids and good in fractals.

Rev pre PoF only viability in sPvP was power build and primarily as aoe stomper. It is bad in every other shape or form and has way too many weakness that make playing it solo a chore.

What we wanted the new elite is to provide a new game play venue and primarily condi remove. What we got is an elite that does not work what so ever in PvP, hampered by bad design and energy restriction and does not offer any mobility and barely supports none condi build.

It is not a stretch to say it is the worst of all currently available 18 elite specs by a large margin. It is just a 5% damage upgrade to the already existing condi build in a raid. They could have done this by just adding 5% damage through the corruption line and we would have better results.

@Evolute.6239 said:Now they're exceptionally good (top effective dps beyond weaver maybe?? rotation is dragon hunter level easy and AP is great) in raids and good in fractals.

Based on what? Haven't seen builds, vids or anything to support that claim but seeing it makes me very very happy, so, sources please!!! ;)

Remove energy costs off citadel orders and make spirits non-targetable by enemies. After that, buff shortbow. Revamp sevenshot, it's so bad.

@Evolute.6239 said:Confused on what you expected.

At the very least a SLIGHTLY new playstyle and/or being good at something other than the most niche and barebones aspect of this game (raids). There aren't many Elites that don't meet that expectation.

I guess the most they can do at this point is make it seem less painful,

1. Increase shortbow damage. For crying out loud shortbow only Soulbeast does 34k dps.
2. Make Warbands more like sandshades as far as them just getting 1 shot.
3. Buff some of the useless traits for some more defenses.

New to revenant, what exactly is bad about Shortbow/Renegade? From what I can see it was intended to be a condi based support build.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:New to revenant, what exactly is bad about Shortbow/Renegade? From what I can see it was intended to be a condi based support build.

Rev suvivability in PvP depends on blocks and mobility. Renegade and SB offer neither.

The tools provided to deal with conditions are obsolete. The condi damage reduction is not a concept that works.

Sustainability as well goes down since you lose access to shield and Glint's heal, which is superior to Renegade.

Then poor design. CCable and destructible wells. Energy management system that is stretched way to far with Renegade. SB damage skills all have either delayed interactions, glitches or designs not fit for PvP.

Even the offensive buffs offered are kind of meh. The only thing Renegade offers over core/herald is Kalla's Fervor.

shortbow isn't very good, especially after comparing different dps benchmarks. For condi, your just better off using mace/axe. The weapon needs more damage or at least better utility. As for the summons, they need a buff. Give them stability on cast and increase the health and toughness.

What would make them sooooo much better is if they were to re-work the summons to work similar to mesmer phantasms or scourge sand shades.

If I were to design Renegade around killable Warband Wells, I would have made them at least durable to take a hit, and to make them threatening to make people want to target them instead of the Revenant.I would have a set up that rewards the Revenant for keeping as many Warband on the field at once similar to a War Raid.

How would that be done? Well what if Renegade and its warband gets some sort of stacking Damage reduction based on how many Warband are up. Making it very tanky unless you quickly damage down the Warband.

@witcher.3197 said:On the reveal stream way back the devs said Renegade had some major reworks. Can you imagine how bad it might have been before the changes? Just wow.

They probably ran out of time and rushed this iteration though. Feels very uninspired.

Exactly. Renegade is a boring and bland elite spec, regardless of current and future balance. It has no gameplay flow, no playstyle, no diversity, nothing. The entire spec is driven around putting a targettable AoE field (which you have no way to protect it afterwards), while using ranged skills with little to no synergy between each other. There's no satisfaction in playing renegade. There is no big play you can pull off with your new skills. It's just bland, random, fire and forget stuff.

Even as a renegade, I have a lot more fun staying on mace/ axe and mallyx. Not only because it's stronger than shortbow/ kalla, but also because it's significantly funnier. All renegade offers is a bunch of extra stats for condition revenants.

Renegade is an unfun failure, and will continue to be even in the day Anet buffs its new skills' numbers and makes them more useful.

@Dragon.8762 said:shortbow isn't very good, especially after comparing different dps benchmarks. For condi, your just better off using mace/axe. The weapon needs more damage or at least better utility. As for the summons, they need a buff. Give them stability on cast and increase the health and toughness.

What would make them sooooo much better is if they were to re-work the summons to work similar to mesmer phantasms or scourge sand shades.

This is my issue. I'm SO sick of Mace/Axe and being locked in with that. I really want Shortbow to get improved so it's a viable alternative option. Please. x.x

What if i told you that originally renegade was supposed to use greatsword? Rytlock is using gs, the icon seems to be closer to gs than bow..Honestly i have no idea how they could place 5 "well" skills on Kalla. Its like equipping 5 gyros for scrapper.. it just wont work at all, whoever designed this spec was completely disconnected from the profession and the game.

@Burtnik.5218 said:What if i told you that originally renegade was supposed to use greatsword? Rytlock is using gs, the icon seems to be closer to gs than bow..Honestly i have no idea how they could place 5 "well" skills on Kalla. Its like equipping 5 gyros for scrapper.. it just wont work at all, whoever designed this spec was completely disconnected from the profession and the game.

I think the icon looks like a stylized representation of our Short Bow, Guerrilla Arc, viewed from the front. Also I wouldn't say that our utilities being all summons is the same as equipping all Gyro utilities on Scrapper; we have an entirely other set of utility skills when we change our legendary stance. Do the summons need some work? Definitely, but I don't find them to be as bad as I get the impression that you're saying they are.

Maybe the cast time could be reduced to 1/2 second. Maybe they could be altered so that they can be placed on any terrain, seeing as they are killable and possible to crowd control. Maybe they could each have their own respective combo field types for more fun and strategic play with our different weapons. Perhaps they could even do with a tiny bit of an energy cost reduction. Perhaps they could all be summoned with at least one stack of Stability. There's a number of ways to improve them. And ultimately, I do think there will be alterations done to the Renegade specialization. It's not terrible right now, but it still needs some love and care from the developer.

Even with shortcomings and some clunky design, I find it possible to enjoy and play with the specialization in PvE and WvW at least, so I look at the specialization as something that's usable. It's not all bad, doom and gloom. Following is a semi-short clip where I purposely stay on Short Bow and Kalla utilities for some escalating fights in the desert outside Amnoon. Normally I would switch to Mallyx and/or Mace/Axe when I feel that it makes more sense granted. Also, if anyone wonders why I am tanking hits I could dodge, in PvE content I tend to try keep my dodges to a minimum, so that I can maintain 100% Critical Chance as much as possible. Normally I move around a bit with Unyielding Anguish, which doubles as a heal with Sevenshot, helps create some crowd control and puts out damage.

@Substatic.6958 said:It's very bad in wpvp and spvp.

WvW and sPvP are bad. Individual specs aren't the correct solution to that problem. Rather build them for PvE, which at least somewhat works as a game mode.

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Substatic.6958 said:It's very bad in wpvp and spvp.

PvE works? Can't talk for others, but once I finish a PvE map and a story chapter I usually don't bother to touch that content again. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with PvE (gathering and mining are good to get gold to craft/buy the shiniez), but some of us do play the game ONLY due has decent PvP game modes (sorry is this makes someone to loss their monocles). And from a PvE perspective the Renegade probably will make less players to use the class (which anyway isn't a problem for me, to be honest).