(What If?) Kella/Renegade and Ventari/Salvation were swapped?

This is a What If scenario.

The details of this scenario:

● Ventari legend and Salvation specialization was swapped with Kalla legend and Renegade specialization.

● Kalla/ Renegade in this scenario are no longer Elite Spec. Now a Core Legend and Specialization.

●Ventari and Salvation are now Elite Spec legend/Specialization, which works like Elite Specs traditionally work mechanically wise. Ventari has its own F2, F3, F4 ability.

●Staff is Elite Spec weapon and Bow is a stock weapon.

Ok so I have a few questions around this scenario.

○With Kally being a core legend now, what would you like her Ancient Echo effect to be?

○ Ventari now has an F2, F3, F4 ability, what would you like these abilities to be?

○ Under this scenario, what kind of build would you play for Revenant?

I'd like that. I always say Renegade doesn't deserve to be the Elite Spec. Ventari is a lot more clear and transparent at what it provides to Revenant.Problem would be Staff - it's a jack-of-all-trades and locking it to Ventari would cause rampage.

Kalla would've felt great as a core legend if it was so since launch - really, this would make her very unique as a core, because it wouldn't have to fulfill the ESpec expectations, which imo, it doesn't.

• Kalla Ancient Echo - gain 25 energy and give you and your allies might. Or a mini Citadel Bombardment

• Ventari F2, F3, F4 - we could actually SWAP those with Kalla's and change it visually do they fit Ventari. Centaur has most of the stuff on utilities and I don't what it would need except stunbreak.

I really like this idea. Ventari is so niche that it has no business being part of the core profession.

That said, Renegade traitline would need a rework. The Kalla legend herself is beautiful support, but the traitline is just really bad.

Ventari now has an F2, F3, F4 ability, what would you like these abilities to be?

Honestly, you could keep the skills the same and they would have most of the same applications, with exception of Citadel Bombardment. The latter could probably be moved to Shortbow.

I would say the biggest impact this would have is that staff being inaccessible to core would be a huge blow to so many builds. Staff carries pretty hard and it would be difficult to imagine the current meta sPvP build, as just one example, thriving well without it. It would still have to run Herald but would consequently be restricted from staff. I don't see any of the other weapons being viable replacements, shortbow included.

Additionally, Ventari and Herald have a lot of natural synergy that I would hate to have to give up, like increased regen and 10-man facets. Sure, healer Herald isn't meta in WvW, but the build is very potent and this would be completely severing what is in my opinion the most viable support role for a Revenant in WvW. They have restructured Herald to complement Ventari quite nicely and it wouldn't make sense to have the shield exist in its current form without access to Ventari.

With all that said, having Ventari be an elite spec could still be interesting, at least in thought. I actually think it would be cool if the F2 was Ventari's Will and then the F3 and F4 changed depending on the legend one is in. This could actually make the spec feel more like an integrated and fleshed out support spec and would give better support synergy with the core legends. There would simply be too much that would have to be restructured if this would ever happen, though.

We deceive ourselves that it will get better.I've been waiting for a rework of any kind for revenant. What gives us a reworking ventari? Nothing all the same.Let's see what gives a rework to the normal profession - engi? We have Scrapper 2019Good thing I'm already playing another game. My patience ran out after useless rework ventari.

P. S. Only hyena +1 wait until someone makes a mistake... Choose a hero in heavy armor and be the only +1. No thanks.Poor thieves suffer for it. Took their role.I apologize if offended anyone it hurts to look at fighter in heavy armor.

@Kain Francois.4328 said: The Kalla legend herself is beautiful support, but the traitline is just really bad.

Kalla legend really only has the elite skill (Perhaps the heal skill as well, but it's a stretch) as support. Without renegade traited F4's permanent alacrity upkeep (F2's might as well i guess) nobody would use it as support.

As for the swap idea itself:

It'd basically be another Shiro/Jalis mix, dps (off-healer, kinda) in group scenarios. Doesn't add anything original to core rev. Still carried by Soulcleave.

You'd be locking staff behind an elite spec which is a terrible idea, as staff is basically a crutch for rev in general. Short Bow as a core ranged condition (hybrid technically) weapon would be sort of nice, but not if it sacrifices staff.

So i'd say the loss of staff is the biggest factor. Second is the newly formed Ventari elite spec. I'm pretty sure everyone knows that Ventari is trash without significant healing power investment. In competitive at least i would never use this without at least ~600-800 healing power. With Glint/Kalla however you can throw them in any kind of build. Condi/Power/Support it all works, at least in general. Ventari and by extension Salvation would need drastic changes, i don't ever see it happening. Also you lose Ventari/Glint(Herald) combo.

I can sort of see the appeal for a Ventari e-spec as it'd be similar in function to druid for ranger, but at this point in the game we're too far down the road.

@Knighthonor.4061 said: ○ Under this scenario, what kind of build would you play for Revenant?

Selfish thought of course, but my build gets deleted from the game because i'm now forced to run Salvation in order to use Centaur Stance. So... yeah, not that one. Or a very sub-par version of it.

I would rather them just rework kalla into a core legend, and replace her with a whole new one at this point. Give us something with weight and I Feel like EACH and every elite spec for Revenant should have a defined niche when core itself does not. This would cause the Revenant to lean to a particular field when choosing one, the issue is kalla and glint both are support specs. Granted for different reasons but both still are; Glint being in PvE weaker than kalla and kalla sucking everyone outside of raids and the only reason she is wanted is due to alacrity.

Frankly Id rather them bring in something more powerful who fulfills a different role; Either tank, selfish power dps increase or a better condition build to mesh well with mallyx. We got the most sub-par and lack-luster elite spec this expansion and it stings as it shouldn't be "Only really useable here" that's dumb and bad game design elite specs should offer you a role or a different way to play but be decent if not at least workable in all game modes. Limiting them to one space only means that in other modes they won't be seen which isn't fair to those who like renegade or to those who don't like it. I was hyped for Renegade when they teased it, it looked and sounded cool but now Im sick'n'tired of it being left on the wayside while EVERYTHING else is getting reworks. You need to double down on Rev and help it out real fast so that next elite spec we don't have a repeat of this crap.

To me honestly Renegade and kalla by extension should mesh well with Shiro; She was a guerrilla fighter and leaned on outnumbering and silencing opposition prior to is being aware. The spirits should be around you always and the utilities should be commands that you give them to do a specific task; One for cc, one for damage, one for protection, one for healing and one to bombard the enemy. Citadel bombardment should of been our elite skill and be much more powerful with some benefit to it; Like open a rift with homing missiles who fire into tyria and bombard the enemy. Her F2-4 should be better and not be just spam alacrity and might, kalla's fervor should be more impactful as the spec as a whole traits and all feel kinda meh? She meshes well with shiro right now sure, better than mallyx or anything else really but still she should be more mobile; More based around tactics of dirty fighting and outnumbering opponents and overwhelming them.

Same could be said for glint, boon-bot with medicore boon application and sustain with the best heal on the rev outside of maybe jalis when you're loaded with condition damage he can chew through. Another support spec when most classes have one, I.E ranger who has druid who is still good despite the nerfs and changes and now soul-beast who is a freaking monster. Why do we need two elite specs based around support and team play when no one else really does; How is that changing our gameplay when its really just more of the same with one being weaker than the other? Glint is superior to kalla in almost EVERY form outside of the alacrity and might generation due to fervor but glint brings tools to the revenant it didn't have. (Anti-stealth, Damage absorption/healing via being damaged, pulsing AoE fields without torment, hard CC that isn't Jade winds or the chain and sustain.) Stop trying to pigeon hole us to be support when the class itself is not sure what its meant to be; I love this class and it's my main but damn it bothers me that we of all classes have to continue to be support heavy. We have three traitlines (Two Elite specs) For support and now Ventari literally is better than BOTH of them.

• Glint should be our tank spec, which would of brought us into the raid scene.
• Kalla could of been our Selfish Dps/Mobile spec to synergize with shiro.

Im actually scared of what you have in store for us A-net... Im scared because it doesn't seem you know what to do with us and that... that is unsettling.

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:I would rather them just rework kalla into a core legend, and replace her with a whole new one at this point. Give us something with weight and I Feel like EACH and every elite spec for Revenant should have a defined niche when core itself does not. This would cause the Revenant to lean to a particular field when choosing one, the issue is kalla and glint both are support specs. Granted for different reasons but both still are; Glint being in PvE weaker than kalla and kalla sucking everyone outside of raids and the only reason she is wanted is due to alacrity.

Frankly Id rather them bring in something more powerful who fulfills a different role; Either tank, selfish power dps increase or a better condition build to mesh well with mallyx. We got the most sub-par and lack-luster elite spec this expansion and it stings as it shouldn't be "Only really useable here" that's dumb and bad game design elite specs should offer you a role or a different way to play but be decent if not at least workable in all game modes. Limiting them to one space only means that in other modes they won't be seen which isn't fair to those who like renegade or to those who don't like it. I was hyped for Renegade when they teased it, it looked and sounded cool but now Im sick'n'tired of it being left on the wayside while EVERYTHING else is getting reworks. You need to double down on Rev and help it out real fast so that next elite spec we don't have a repeat of this kitten.

To me honestly Renegade and kalla by extension should mesh well with Shiro; She was a guerrilla fighter and leaned on outnumbering and silencing opposition prior to is being aware. The spirits should be around you always and the utilities should be commands that you give them to do a specific task; One for cc, one for damage, one for protection, one for healing and one to bombard the enemy. Citadel bombardment should of been our elite skill and be much more powerful with some benefit to it; Like open a rift with homing missiles who fire into tyria and bombard the enemy. Her F2-4 should be better and not be just spam alacrity and might, kalla's fervor should be more impactful as the spec as a whole traits and all feel kinda meh? She meshes well with shiro right now sure, better than mallyx or anything else really but still she should be more mobile; More based around tactics of dirty fighting and outnumbering opponents and overwhelming them.

Same could be said for glint, boon-bot with medicore boon application and sustain with the best heal on the rev outside of maybe jalis when you're loaded with condition damage he can chew through. Another support spec when most classes have one, I.E ranger who has druid who is still good despite the nerfs and changes and now soul-beast who is a freaking monster. Why do we need two elite specs based around support and team play when no one else really does; How is that changing our gameplay when its really just more of the same with one being weaker than the other? Glint is superior to kalla in almost EVERY form outside of the alacrity and might generation due to fervor but glint brings tools to the revenant it didn't have. (Anti-stealth, Damage absorption/healing via being damaged, pulsing AoE fields without torment, hard CC that isn't Jade winds or the chain and sustain.) Stop trying to pigeon hole us to be support when the class itself is not sure what its meant to be; I love this class and it's my main but kitten it bothers me that we of all classes have to continue to be support heavy. We have three traitlines (Two Elite specs) For support and now Ventari literally is better than BOTH of them.

• Glint should be our tank spec, which would of brought us into the raid scene.
• Kalla could of been our Selfish Dps/Mobile spec to synergize with shiro.

Im actually scared of what you have in store for us A-net... Im scared because it doesn't seem you know what to do with us and that... that is unsettling.

the only reason Kalla is wanted isn’t just alacrity (which isn’t even part of her stance mind you); It’s most definitely also for Soulcleave. Icerazor Breakrazor and Darkrazor are good too and razorclaw is good in condi builds. Also she’s good outside of raids as well; she can perform extremely well in open world and is a key component of power alacrity ren in meta fractals. She also gives different support options than Glint and is generally superior in the support department. Kalla also brings more variation and possible (good) builds to Revenant than it ever had with Herald (condi ren, Power alacrity, ren healer)

Now I can understand hating her in pvp/wvw but to say she’s not useful or good in pve is just flat out wrong when she’s far better than Herald for pretty much all of pve. And to say she’s just a support spec is wrong as she is obviously also a high condi dps spec

if renegade became core as you would like just remember it would lose all it F skills.

my bad clearly i did not read far enough in to this before posting XD.

I don't know...Herald was designed to be a support spec while Renegade was designed to be an offensive condition dammage spec. But right now, Renegade has taken the role of support (mostly because of the alacrity and the aoe dammage boost) and Herald is just weird...

If you take Ventari away from base Revenant, they won't have a healing spec anymore; which every profession has.

@Edge.8724 said:I don't know...Herald was designed to be a support spec while Renegade was designed to be an offensive condition dammage spec. But right now, Renegade has taken the role of support (mostly because of the alacrity and the aoe dammage boost) and Herald is just weird...

If you take Ventari away from base Revenant, they won't have a healing spec anymore; which every profession has.

Renegade was designed as an offensive support spec (as stated by devs) and it fulfills both those intended roles well (in pve)

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@"Thornwolf.9721" said:I would rather them just rework kalla into a core legend, and replace her with a whole new one at this point. Give us something with weight and I Feel like EACH and every elite spec for Revenant should have a defined niche when core itself does not. This would cause the Revenant to lean to a particular field when choosing one, the issue is kalla and glint both are support specs. Granted for different reasons but both still are; Glint being in PvE weaker than kalla and kalla sucking everyone outside of raids and the only reason she is wanted is due to alacrity.

Frankly Id rather them bring in something more powerful who fulfills a different role; Either tank, selfish power dps increase or a better condition build to mesh well with mallyx. We got the most sub-par and lack-luster elite spec this expansion and it stings as it shouldn't be "Only really useable here" that's dumb and bad game design elite specs should offer you a role or a different way to play but be decent if not at least workable in all game modes. Limiting them to one space only means that in other modes they won't be seen which isn't fair to those who like renegade or to those who don't like it. I was hyped for Renegade when they teased it, it looked and sounded cool but now Im sick'n'tired of it being left on the wayside while EVERYTHING else is getting reworks. You need to double down on Rev and help it out real fast so that next elite spec we don't have a repeat of this kitten.

To me honestly Renegade and kalla by extension should mesh well with Shiro; She was a guerrilla fighter and leaned on outnumbering and silencing opposition prior to is being aware. The spirits should be around you always and the utilities should be commands that you give them to do a specific task; One for cc, one for damage, one for protection, one for healing and one to bombard the enemy. Citadel bombardment should of been our elite skill and be much more powerful with some benefit to it; Like open a rift with homing missiles who fire into tyria and bombard the enemy. Her F2-4 should be better and not be just spam alacrity and might, kalla's fervor should be more impactful as the spec as a whole traits and all feel kinda meh? She meshes well with shiro right now sure, better than mallyx or anything else really but still she should be more mobile; More based around tactics of dirty fighting and outnumbering opponents and overwhelming them.

Same could be said for glint, boon-bot with medicore boon application and sustain with the best heal on the rev outside of maybe jalis when you're loaded with condition damage he can chew through. Another support spec when most classes have one, I.E ranger who has druid who is still good despite the nerfs and changes and now soul-beast who is a freaking monster. Why do we need two elite specs based around support and team play when no one else really does; How is that changing our gameplay when its really just more of the same with one being weaker than the other? Glint is superior to kalla in almost EVERY form outside of the alacrity and might generation due to fervor but glint brings tools to the revenant it didn't have. (Anti-stealth, Damage absorption/healing via being damaged, pulsing AoE fields without torment, hard CC that isn't Jade winds or the chain and sustain.) Stop trying to pigeon hole us to be support when the class itself is not sure what its meant to be; I love this class and it's my main but kitten it bothers me that we of all classes have to continue to be support heavy. We have three traitlines (Two Elite specs) For support and now Ventari literally is better than BOTH of them.

• Glint should be our tank spec, which would of brought us into the raid scene.
• Kalla could of been our Selfish Dps/Mobile spec to synergize with shiro.

Im actually scared of what you have in store for us A-net... Im scared because it doesn't seem you know what to do with us and that... that is unsettling.

Alacraity is part of her kit via her F2-4 abilities and realistically its that reason she is taken alongside a Quickness fire-brand. Condi on Rev is crap and has been since mallyx got neutered. The bleeds and shortbow as a whole are underwhelming and she is not as useful as you're making her out to be she is just isn't as useless as herald is at PvE; Point is she fills the support role. This is wrong as now we have two support legends regardless of the intention of the dev's; We should not be expected to be support or have support on this class all the time. We shouldn't not unless everyone else is expected to at the same time, which they aren't Im not saying its worse here than elsewhere mind you but Renegade sucks and needs a rework and is nothing like I had hoped which saddens me as I had high hopes for it.

Glint has been in a weird kind ok place but Id love a solid rework with her being our healer/boon/buff bot to go along with ventari and Kalla to fill the role of the bruiser,mobile dps spec that is usable anywhere. Our elite specs should define the role we wish to go in with our rev, while core rev is more a jack of all trades; So each spec is meant to define the kind of revenant you wish to play. If you don't wish to do that then stay core and be the jack of all trades; This way it gives on both ends which allows people to play as they desire. Because I promise you Kalla in raids is taken for alacrity, he spirits are great and all but realistically people want you pumping out alacrity like hop-cakes and couldn't care less about what else you bring to the table.

Doesn't help that our other legends seem medicore on their own as well, when it comes to other classes and their preformance... Perhaps its something they should consider going forward that Rev is kind of "Pigeon" holed into basically being another variant of a banner slave, but for alacrity instead.(In raids, fractals ect.) And in PvP and WvW its all about herald. Core can do ok in roaming but its not competitive once so ever; Which is a shame and should not be the case at all I guess that is what it comes down to is that option wise we kind of are stuck.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:I would rather them just rework kalla into a core legend, and replace her with a whole new one at this point. Give us something with weight and I Feel like EACH and every elite spec for Revenant should have a defined niche when core itself does not. This would cause the Revenant to lean to a particular field when choosing one, the issue is kalla and glint both are support specs. Granted for different reasons but both still are; Glint being in PvE weaker than kalla and kalla sucking everyone outside of raids and the only reason she is wanted is due to alacrity.

Frankly Id rather them bring in something more powerful who fulfills a different role; Either tank, selfish power dps increase or a better condition build to mesh well with mallyx. We got the most sub-par and lack-luster elite spec this expansion and it stings as it shouldn't be "Only really useable here" that's dumb and bad game design elite specs should offer you a role or a different way to play but be decent if not at least workable in all game modes. Limiting them to one space only means that in other modes they won't be seen which isn't fair to those who like renegade or to those who don't like it. I was hyped for Renegade when they teased it, it looked and sounded cool but now Im sick'n'tired of it being left on the wayside while EVERYTHING else is getting reworks. You need to double down on Rev and help it out real fast so that next elite spec we don't have a repeat of this kitten.

To me honestly Renegade and kalla by extension should mesh well with Shiro; She was a guerrilla fighter and leaned on outnumbering and silencing opposition prior to is being aware. The spirits should be around you always and the utilities should be commands that you give them to do a specific task; One for cc, one for damage, one for protection, one for healing and one to bombard the enemy. Citadel bombardment should of been our elite skill and be much more powerful with some benefit to it; Like open a rift with homing missiles who fire into tyria and bombard the enemy. Her F2-4 should be better and not be just spam alacrity and might, kalla's fervor should be more impactful as the spec as a whole traits and all feel kinda meh? She meshes well with shiro right now sure, better than mallyx or anything else really but still she should be more mobile; More based around tactics of dirty fighting and outnumbering opponents and overwhelming them.

Same could be said for glint, boon-bot with medicore boon application and sustain with the best heal on the rev outside of maybe jalis when you're loaded with condition damage he can chew through. Another support spec when most classes have one, I.E ranger who has druid who is still good despite the nerfs and changes and now soul-beast who is a freaking monster. Why do we need two elite specs based around support and team play when no one else really does; How is that changing our gameplay when its really just more of the same with one being weaker than the other? Glint is superior to kalla in almost EVERY form outside of the alacrity and might generation due to fervor but glint brings tools to the revenant it didn't have. (Anti-stealth, Damage absorption/healing via being damaged, pulsing AoE fields without torment, hard CC that isn't Jade winds or the chain and sustain.) Stop trying to pigeon hole us to be support when the class itself is not sure what its meant to be; I love this class and it's my main but kitten it bothers me that we of all classes have to continue to be support heavy. We have three traitlines (Two Elite specs) For support and now Ventari literally is better than BOTH of them.

• Glint should be our tank spec, which would of brought us into the raid scene.
• Kalla could of been our Selfish Dps/Mobile spec to synergize with shiro.

Im actually scared of what you have in store for us A-net... Im scared because it doesn't seem you know what to do with us and that... that is unsettling.

Alacrity is part of the F abilities which is part of Renegade, not Kalla; this is an important distinction as Kalla is tied to Renegade, but also somewhat separate, while Renegade isn't directly tied to Kalla. Renegade can be viable outside of Kalla. However, Kalla IS part of the meta build for Diviner Ren and is brought because she brings more to the table than her other legends. You could take Jalis or Mallyx over her theoretically, but in most cases she's going to be the better pick because of what she provides (and notice this has nothing to do with Alacrity at this point since you get the F abilities in Renegade regardless of legend choice).

Condi on rev isn't shit at all, really. It's one of the best cDPS in the game (pve) and performs well in every area condi does well in, and also does really well in Open World. The only area it really suffers is Fractals, but that's a general issue for condi in that game mode.

. Our elite specs should define the role we wish to go in with our rev, while core rev is more a jack of all trades; So each spec is meant to define the kind of revenant you wish to play. If you don't wish to do that then stay core and be the jack of all trades; This way it gives on both ends which allows people to play as they desire.

Our elite specs do define what roles we can and cannot take, just in more than the "one" way you seem to be presenting. Renegade is Condi dps, Hybrid Support/pDPS, Hybrid Support cDPS, and Support. Herald is Boon support/Healing and lower end pDPS.

Because I promise you Kalla in raids is taken for alacrity, he spirits are great and all but realistically people want you pumping out alacrity like hop-cakes and couldn't care less about what else you bring to the table.

This isn't true at all; People DO care about what you bring to the table besides Alacrity or else Renegade wouldn't be meta for Alacrity. Renegade + FB has to bring MORE than what Chrono + DPS does, otherwise it gets replaced. Renegade brings higher combined damage alongside Firebrand on a lot of fights, it brings Assassin's Presence, it brings good CC, and most importantly, it brings Soulcleave, which is arguably one of the best skills in the game.

Doesn't help that our other legends seem medicore on their own as well, when it comes to other classes and their preformance... Perhaps its something they should consider going forward that Rev is kind of "Pigeon" holed into basically being another variant of a banner slave, but for alacrity instead.(In raids, fractals ect.) And in PvP and WvW its all about herald. Core can do ok in roaming but its not competitive once so ever; Which is a shame and should not be the case at all I guess that is what it comes down to is that option wise we kind of are stuck.

Being pigeonholed as a "bannerslave" isn't bad, especially since we have other builds we can play as well. Power Ren with Alacrity does decent damage and fulfills a hybrid support role and this doesn't change the fact that, as mentioned, Renegade still excels at full support and full condi damage when you want/need those. Like I don't understand why everyone on this forum is so against Renegade being in the meta simply because it's not how they want to play it. Better to be in the meta at all than to go back to how it was between the Soi + FoN nerf where Herald was completely out of meta for over a year.

@Edge.8724 said:I don't know...Herald was designed to be a support spec while Renegade was designed to be an offensive condition dammage spec. But right now, Renegade has taken the role of support (mostly because of the alacrity and the aoe dammage boost) and Herald is just weird...

If you take Ventari away from base Revenant, they won't have a healing spec anymore; which every profession has.

Yeah they will. Soul Cleave heals other classes nicely. They not limited by an energy system. They can all out rapid spam

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:I would rather them just rework kalla into a core legend, and replace her with a whole new one at this point. Give us something with weight and I Feel like EACH and every elite spec for Revenant should have a defined niche when core itself does not. This would cause the Revenant to lean to a particular field when choosing one, the issue is kalla and glint both are support specs. Granted for different reasons but both still are; Glint being in PvE weaker than kalla and kalla sucking everyone outside of raids and the only reason she is wanted is due to alacrity.

Frankly Id rather them bring in something more powerful who fulfills a different role; Either tank, selfish power dps increase or a better condition build to mesh well with mallyx. We got the most sub-par and lack-luster elite spec this expansion and it stings as it shouldn't be "Only really useable here" that's dumb and bad game design elite specs should offer you a role or a different way to play but be decent if not at least workable in all game modes. Limiting them to one space only means that in other modes they won't be seen which isn't fair to those who like renegade or to those who don't like it. I was hyped for Renegade when they teased it, it looked and sounded cool but now Im sick'n'tired of it being left on the wayside while EVERYTHING else is getting reworks. You need to double down on Rev and help it out real fast so that next elite spec we don't have a repeat of this kitten.

To me honestly Renegade and kalla by extension should mesh well with Shiro; She was a guerrilla fighter and leaned on outnumbering and silencing opposition prior to is being aware. The spirits should be around you always and the utilities should be commands that you give them to do a specific task; One for cc, one for damage, one for protection, one for healing and one to bombard the enemy. Citadel bombardment should of been our elite skill and be much more powerful with some benefit to it; Like open a rift with homing missiles who fire into tyria and bombard the enemy. Her F2-4 should be better and not be just spam alacrity and might, kalla's fervor should be more impactful as the spec as a whole traits and all feel kinda meh? She meshes well with shiro right now sure, better than mallyx or anything else really but still she should be more mobile; More based around tactics of dirty fighting and outnumbering opponents and overwhelming them.

Same could be said for glint, boon-bot with medicore boon application and sustain with the best heal on the rev outside of maybe jalis when you're loaded with condition damage he can chew through. Another support spec when most classes have one, I.E ranger who has druid who is still good despite the nerfs and changes and now soul-beast who is a freaking monster. Why do we need two elite specs based around support and team play when no one else really does; How is that changing our gameplay when its really just more of the same with one being weaker than the other? Glint is superior to kalla in almost EVERY form outside of the alacrity and might generation due to fervor but glint brings tools to the revenant it didn't have. (Anti-stealth, Damage absorption/healing via being damaged, pulsing AoE fields without torment, hard CC that isn't Jade winds or the chain and sustain.) Stop trying to pigeon hole us to be support when the class itself is not sure what its meant to be; I love this class and it's my main but kitten it bothers me that we of all classes have to continue to be support heavy. We have three traitlines (Two Elite specs) For support and now Ventari literally is better than BOTH of them.

• Glint should be our tank spec, which would of brought us into the raid scene.
• Kalla could of been our Selfish Dps/Mobile spec to synergize with shiro.

Im actually scared of what you have in store for us A-net... Im scared because it doesn't seem you know what to do with us and that... that is unsettling.

. Our elite specs should define the role we wish to go in with our rev, while core rev is more a jack of all trades; So each spec is meant to define the kind of revenant you wish to play. If you don't wish to do that then stay core and be the jack of all trades; This way it gives on both ends which allows people to play as they desire.

Because I promise you Kalla in raids is taken for alacrity, he spirits are great and all but realistically people want you pumping out alacrity like hop-cakes and couldn't care less about what else you bring to the table.

Doesn't help that our other legends seem medicore on their own as well, when it comes to other classes and their preformance... Perhaps its something they should consider going forward that Rev is kind of "Pigeon" holed into basically being another variant of a banner slave, but for alacrity instead.(In raids, fractals ect.) And in PvP and WvW its all about herald. Core can do ok in roaming but its not competitive once so ever; Which is a shame and should not be the case at all I guess that is what it comes down to is that option wise we kind of are stuck.

The reason we are all against it? Because everyone else got something cool that is good at ALL game modes, where ours is only good for PvE and at that is dependent on Firebrand being there for raids. It can't be good on its own without going full condition damage which sure is ok I guess but other classes do it better than we do and bring more while also being Dps. The legend is lack-luster and just is a pain to work without outside of PvE (Open world and Raids) Everywhere else it seems to be meh and in a game where we have multiple game modes, and multiple specs from this expansion working within those other game modes (Sadly except ours.).

I don't know why I expected better, but I do and I guess its because I hold them to a standard that no longer exists.

@Thornwolf.9721 said:The reason we are all against it? Because everyone else got something cool that is good at ALL game modes, where ours is only good for PvE and at that is dependent on Firebrand being there for raids. It can't be good on its own without going full condition damage which sure is ok I guess but other classes do it better than we do and bring more while also being Dps.

What cDPS (pve) is better than Renegade overall? There's not really any the only thing that is near equivalent is Mirage. Both specs are meta on 4 bosses, but Renegade performs better on more bosses overall while Mirage is entirely dependent on how often its opponents attack/if they move around a lot in order to deal all of its damage

The legend is lack-luster and just is a pain to work without outside of PvE (Open world and Raids) Everywhere else it seems to be meh and in a game where we have multiple game modes, and multiple specs from this expansion working within those other game modes (Sadly except ours.).

I don't know why I expected better, but I do and I guess its because I hold them to a standard that no longer exists.

I agree with you that Renegade/Kalla needs work to be able to compete properly in PvP/WvW. I don't, however, think that trashing the entire spec with large generalizations (especially when it works extremely well in 1 of the 3 game modes and has diversity and variation) is helpful since it doesn't necessarily address the actual issues the spec faces which is poor performance in 2 of the 3 game modes. There are PvP/WvW specific changes that could be made to bolster Renegade/Kalla/Shortbow's performance in those modes that wouldn't change its current strong performance in PvE. That's ideally what I'd like to see happen

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:The reason we are all against it? Because everyone else got something cool that is good at ALL game modes, where ours is only good for PvE and at that is dependent on Firebrand being there for raids. It can't be good on its own without going full condition damage which sure is ok I guess but other classes do it better than we do and bring more while also being Dps.

The legend is lack-luster and just is a pain to work without outside of PvE (Open world and Raids) Everywhere else it seems to be meh and in a game where we have multiple game modes, and multiple specs from this expansion working within those other game modes (Sadly except ours.).

I don't know why I expected better, but I do and I guess its because I hold them to a standard that no longer exists.

I believe or am beginning to believe its more an issue with Core Rev, rather than renegade because Core doesn't hold up against many things in competitive play and doesn't do well in most game-modes. So perhaps the problem is core and how it synergies with its elite specs (It was built around herald, and herald was why it was designed the way it was rather than an actual class.)

@Thornwolf.9721 said:

@LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

@Thornwolf.9721 said:The reason we are all against it? Because everyone else got something cool that is good at ALL game modes, where ours is only good for PvE and at that is dependent on Firebrand being there for raids. It can't be good on its own without going full condition damage which sure is ok I guess but other classes do it better than we do and bring more while also being Dps.

The legend is lack-luster and just is a pain to work without outside of PvE (Open world and Raids) Everywhere else it seems to be meh and in a game where we have multiple game modes, and multiple specs from this expansion working within those other game modes (Sadly except ours.).

I don't know why I expected better, but I do and I guess its because I hold them to a standard that no longer exists.

Core rev is not great but renegade desing is the problem from it F keys to weapon itself. That spec need to be reworked from ground up to make it viable in pvp. I can count maybe 1-2 good traits for pvp. Kalla legend itself is totally useless with "muh spirits" and the shortbow is a low pressure defendless joke. Not to mention how ridiculous 3 is that will never hit more than 1-2 arrows to moving small targets or 2 that will always miss mobile targets. Its basically just place 4 on yourself, 5 and auto all day in pvp. Probably the worst weapon ingame rn.