Let's talk about Time To Kill

It gets brought up every single thread. We bring it up in the form of "One shot is OP" or "No build should survive forever." But aside from knee jerk OP reaction threads, I don't think we have ever talked about it.

So let's have a dedicated conversation about TTK or Time To Kill.

TTK is usually an FPS term about how long it takes to die in a fire fight. It can range from Modern Warfare with people dying in less than a second under heavy gunfire as well as instantly to headshots all the way up to, well, Guild Wars 2 where depending on the build and the terrain some builds can literally sustain endlessly. Even in individual games there is a lot of variation. For example, in Street Fighter games matches can absolutely time out(99 seconds) , but in high end championship level play they usually run between 20-70 seconds per round a lot of the time. Sub 10 second rounds are common against opponents who get completely dunked on.

So let's talk about it. Let's have a dedicated discussion on damage and health and healing.

So if you are going to respond please describe:

TLDR:

**1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?
3. How long should it take two Jack-Of-All-Stats builds to result in a clear victor?
4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.**

   As far as me, lord supreme Best Dressed Mesmer NA of the Forums, is concerned it doesn't matter what genre. All I care about is what feels good to play against from your perspective.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:TLDR:

**1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?
3. How long should it take 2 balanced orientated builds to result in a clear victor?
4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?
5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.**

1. About 3 seconds, assuming the defending player doesn't have boons or passives and is basically afk, from first hit to down. Important to distinguish here that this is from FIRST HIT, not from the start of the engagement or from first cast.
2. In a pure 1v1, I think the glass build should never win unless the bunker makes clear mistakes so TTK isn't really relevant here as you don't really need to measure a bunkers TTK, unless it's too small a number.
3. I don't think I understand what kind of build this is referring to. What is a "balanced build"? A Reaper?
4. 15+ minutes.
5. No. I will say that Overwatch and other shooters are a bad example.

In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.

Maybe a minute

Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer

Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.

-

TTK when you made a single mistake: 0,5s

How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build? -----> On equal skill level, maybe 15-20s

How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor? ------> On equal skill, if the glass build cant win (or come close to) within the 1st 35s, they lost.

How long should it take 2 balanced orientated builds to result in a clear victor? ------> This is based on skill and mechanics so could stalemate, or could be ~30s

How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor? ------> This should be a stalemate imo

Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2. -----> Too many bad examples

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

Agree with your list.But we all know that if people facetank the burst and die, they will demand nerf to the build, not improve their gameplay.

I'm fine with glassy builds being able to "one shot" other builds, so long as they have weaknesses.

Weaknesses being, Glassy, low on mobility, no access to stealth / disengage, Cooldown on the ability to burst.Glass builds should NEVER be able to burst with unblockable skills. Glassy builds should also never be able to continuesly burst over the span of 30 seconds, like the pre-nerfed condi mirage. Or DPS soulbeast (to a lesser extent).

I always thought builds like FA ele and FA weaver was fine, because they had clear weaknesses, like de-targeting and invis along with high-burst. They have clear counters in Core Guard, Rev and Thieves.Classes like the old pre-nerfed core Guardian also had weaknesses, it could not withstand focus. Nor did it have mobility.Classes like old Deadeye though was toxic by design, coupling invisibility with one shot mechanics will NEVER be fun to play against. Much like the "new-ish" one shot chrono that's around.

My biggest issue is classes that have a lot of dueling potential, a lot of sustain having the burst potential of glassy burst classes. See Strength Spellbreaker for example. 8k hits on Rampage and GS burst is not out of the ordinary, it has great mobility and good sustain.Classes like Holosmith that literally poop out boons while having access to a butt-load of stuns and damage. The re-sustain potential coupled with mobility pushes this class over the top.

Classes that are super defensive, Mender Firebrand, Mender weaver and Paladin Scrapper should all lose sustain. Especially the latter two, classes that can tank for a set amount of time regardless if they are 1v1 or 1v100 should get changed. Moving out of evade chaining to actually re-sustaining should be the right path to take.Hard mitigation such as Evade and to a lesser extent, blocks should get toned down immensely on some classes, and obviously get compensated with healing, mobility or damage as the devs see fit.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:**1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?
3. How long should it take 2 balanced orientated builds to result in a clear victor?
4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?
5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.**

• 30s-1m - or like sephiroth said 5s if burst eaten
• 1m-2.5m - 10s I guess if burst eaten
• 2.5m-5m - 30s if burst eaten
• 5m+ - 1m if bunker burst
• ehh

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

This one sounds like healthy gameplay. You need enough time to react to an engagement and to utilize your skill and knowledge while you also need clear purposes for bunkers and glass cannons. Oneshot builds with long range or out of invisibility only serve the purpose of killing freshly interested players in unranked.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

I like your list, so I second this. However I think for 4) It would probably come down to who has the better understanding of their characters mechanics and who will make the first mistake. I'll say over 5 min, but I'm not sure if you can ever pinpoint an exact amount of time because it would be very situational.

@Yannir.4132 said:

@"mortrialus.3062" said:TLDR:

**1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?

3. How long should it take 2 balanced orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.**

6. No. I will say that Overwatch and other shooters are a bad example.

I mean I was going to post a few rounds of Street Fighter 3 as examples of good Time To Kill this game should try to follow.

TTK is one factor. That is hard to control when active defenses can mitigate so much. It is also hard to control when quickness means some builds DPS spike is pretty strong.

Now:

• Glass vs Glass: < 1 second
• Glass vs Bunker: 30-60 seconds
• Brawler vs Brawler: 60-120 seconds
• Bunker vs Bunker: indefinite

Ideally:

• Glass vs Glass: 3-4 seconds, up to 45 seconds if both players are equally matched and relatively skilled.
• Glass vs Bunker: 20-45 seconds, or up to ~60 if equally matched and skilled.
• Brawler vs Brawler: 45-90 seconds
• Bunker vs Bunker: 120-180.

How to achieve this?

• Traits and effects would need to be nerfed that reduced time to kill to under 2 seconds.
• Traits and effects that improve survivability to infinite in a bunker vs bunker scenario would need to be nerfed.
• Traits that provide sustain would need to be tradeoffs for traits that grant damage.
• Then damage/sustain related numbers of abilities would need to be adjusted to fix any issues that arise.

@saerni.2584 said:snipsyeah I think yours is better.

I like how a lot of people have no problem giving their opinion yet no one wants to provide an example. I'll answer these assuming each players skill is similar.

1. How long it should take for a glass build to kill another glass build?

Complete glass with no defensive traits/buffs/stats and caught off guard by another glass build? 0.5-1 second. If you are on guard though and have at least a tiny bit of survivability traited I would say ~2 seconds, just enough time to get off 1 skill to maybe save you and continue the fight. On the long side of things 5-15 seconds, enough time for one party to blow all their defensive cds or make a mistake.

2. How long it should take for a bunker build and a glass build to come to a clear victor?

This one is a little trickier. I think it would have a radically varied time all based on who gets the upper hand first. If the glass build does, maybe 10-30 seconds. If they bunker build does, 5-20 seconds.

3. How long should it take 2 balanced orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

By balanced I assume you mean equally built for damage and defense. I would say anywhere from 15-120 seconds, it really depends on the profession matchup.

4. How long should it take 2 completely defensively orientated builds to result in a clear victor?

This fight should never end unless someone messes up badly. Neither should have enough damage to kill the other.

5. Please post YouTube links of competitive games that exhibit the TTK you want to see in GW2.

Note: These are just examples of TTK, that is all. Just my opinion on what would feel correct.Full glass vs full glass:

Fights on the tankier side:

@Zexanima.7851 said:I like how a lot of people have no problem giving their opinion yet no one wants to provide an example. I'll answer these assuming each players skill is similar.By balanced I assume you mean equally built for damage and defense. I would say anywhere from 15-120 seconds, it really depends on the profession matchup.

Yes. That is exactly what I meant. Edited to make the OP more clear what I'm referring to.

@FyzE.3472 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

5 minutes is madness imo, that is half (of most matches) for one duel.

@Quadox.7834 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

Question 3 was changed while I slept.Refer to Yannirs comment for the original question.

This post would work better as a survey probably.

Longer than 5 seconds for sure now sadly even without a big mistake u can be killed in 1 second.

Thanks to stealth and UN blockables as well daze

Thinking about it attacks out of stealth should get a dmg reduction

@FyzE.3472 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

Agreed.

This is basically the majority of post complaining about 1 shot builds and Nerf this and that. 1 shot builds are on long cool down. They are usually pretty glassy. If u dodge their 1 shot. You should be able to counter them pretty swiftly. The problem is that alot these players who have no map awareness or basically the ability to double tap a key get farmed. Then they come and say omg sic em too strong etc balabla. They just need to learn to play.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:I'm fine with glassy builds being able to "one shot" other builds, so long as they have weaknesses.

Weaknesses being, Glassy, low on mobility, no access to stealth / disengage, Cooldown on the ability to burst.Glass builds should NEVER be able to burst with unblockable skills. Glassy builds should also never be able to continuesly burst over the span of 30 seconds, like the pre-nerfed condi mirage. Or DPS soulbeast (to a lesser extent).

I always thought builds like FA ele and FA weaver was fine, because they had clear weaknesses, like de-targeting and invis along with high-burst. They have clear counters in Core Guard, Rev and Thieves.Classes like the old pre-nerfed core Guardian also had weaknesses, it could not withstand focus. Nor did it have mobility.Classes like old Deadeye though was toxic by design, coupling invisibility with one shot mechanics will NEVER be fun to play against. Much like the "new-ish" one shot chrono that's around.

My biggest issue is classes that have a lot of dueling potential, a lot of sustain having the burst potential of glassy burst classes. See Strength Spellbreaker for example. 8k hits on Rampage and GS burst is not out of the ordinary, it has great mobility and good sustain.Classes like Holosmith that literally poop out boons while having access to a butt-load of stuns and damage. The re-sustain potential coupled with mobility pushes this class over the top.

Classes that are super defensive, Mender Firebrand, Mender weaver and Paladin Scrapper should all lose sustain. Especially the latter two, classes that can tank for a set amount of time regardless if they are 1v1 or 1v100 should get changed. Moving out of evade chaining to actually re-sustaining should be the right path to take.Hard mitigation such as Evade and to a lesser extent, blocks should get toned down immensely on some classes, and obviously get compensated with healing, mobility or damage as the devs see fit.

It sounds like you are playing something melee with physical damage against spelbreakers, spreak breakers are weak against Condi. It won't last long vs mirage or druid. It can also die to massive bursts like rev.

Holos are countered by warriors, unless prot holo. Condi can do well.

Everything basically comes in a full circle. I ve been playing all the side noders and feel that they are pretty even. Even scrapper. Scrappers lack mobility even with the super speed on gyros and can die with cc or big bursts.

@TorQ.7041 said:

Everything basically comes in a full circle. I ve been playing all the side noders and feel that they are pretty even. Even scrapper. Scrappers lack mobility even with the super speed on gyros and can die with cc or big bursts.

I am pretty certain that is not the case.

Nothing counters FB. You could say focus fire, but in equally competitive situations focusing FB is a very bad idea.

Mirage used to counter SB. Nothing now counters SB effectively at all. There are no condi builds in rotation except scourge anyway.

Nothing effectively counters holo either. High mobility, high damage, boat load of CC and good mobility.

Nothing effectively counters Soul beast.

If you are not playing any of the above (plus herald and thief), why are you playing sPvP?

@otto.5684 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

Everything basically comes in a full circle. I ve been playing all the side noders and feel that they are pretty even. Even scrapper. Scrappers lack mobility even with the super speed on gyros and can die with cc or big bursts.

I realized no point.

Yes nothing counters sb. That's why you see 4 each game.

Yes everything is op except class you play and it's all balanced. The only time it's balanced is if your build wins. Which judging by the hate on engi,warrior and ranger. You must be a mesmer. Since only a Sider noder cares as much about these classes.

You should uninstall the game (: let the rest of us who find it fine to play. I play 3 classes n rotate between them. If I lose I got out played. But I guess if you lose you didn't out play. It's every one else's profession being op.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Quadox.7834 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

It was badly worded but I interpreted it as bruiser (sidenoder duelist) vs bruiser. You?

@Quadox.7834 said:

@FyzE.3472 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

1. In a duel, maybe 30s. 1 player facetanking the burst of another Id say 5s.
2. Maybe a minute
3. Bout 5 minutes, had some good duels like this and longer
4. Never, bunkers cant kill bunkers or shouldn't anyway.
5. -

Well sure. Bunker vs bunker is madness almost always. With the exception of one of the bunkers being able to flip the capture point. Then the other one is just wasting time. But still both live in that situation usually.