Finally nerf fb and scourge — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Finally nerf fb and scourge

dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
edited May 2, 2019 in PVP

Can we finally nerf both of them?

  • It's unfun to fight a fb and scourge in a tf standing highground on non port spots and freewinning every single tf as long as you don't have a fb yourself
  • It's unfun to fight a fb who is too bad to do a single proper dodgeroll, facetankes every burst combo like a punching bag but simply heals up and survives, nevertheless
  • It's unfun to see some certain players suddenly doing work on scourge and fb allthough they are known for being mechanically pure garbage
  • It's unfun to see those certain players suddenly doing work allthough they were known bad players before they rerolled to fb and scourge
<1

Comments

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    its firebrand that's the problem. necro always has and always will have poor sustain. maybe a slight condi shave to scourge but nothing drastic (old necro players this is your q to cringe).

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    its firebrand that's the problem. necro always has and always will have poor sustain.

    Barrier scourge who stands highground on non port spots has everything but not poor sustain.
    He barely loses any dmg output while kiting around which is the reason why it's so much better than core nec and reaper.

    If he kites correctly on non port spots (capricorn mid, kyhlo mid or coliseum as an example) most damage skills from revs, thiefs, guards (non portspot) and other melee classes are negated anyways -meanwhile the scourge is still able to apply 100% of his dmg with shades. And if you try to engage him allthough you cannot use half of your dmg skills while he can, you basically will just suicide.

    FB and scourge both promote extremly unhealthy and unfun gameplay, while being also extremly powerfull since PoF release.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    its firebrand that's the problem. necro always has and always will have poor sustain.

    Barrier scourge who stands highground on non port spots has everything but not poor sustain.
    He barely loses any dmg output while kiting around which is the reason why it's so much better than core nec and reaper.

    true I didn't think of that, but that applies to some other ranged classes as well.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    its firebrand that's the problem. necro always has and always will have poor sustain.

    Barrier scourge who stands highground on non port spots has everything but not poor sustain.
    He barely loses any dmg output while kiting around which is the reason why it's so much better than core nec and reaper.

    true I didn't think of that, but that applies to some other ranged classes as well.

    As stated above other range classes cannot deal dmg at the same time while kiting around. This ounterpressure actually makes it pretty easy to kite around and to sustain.
    A deadeye or a longbow soulbeast might stand there but if you engage them they start to kite and then they're not able to deal damage at the same time.

  • Meteor.3720Meteor.3720 Member ✭✭✭

    As much as I agree with you, I doubt they are going to change shade mechanics as that requires a full rework of the entire Scourge profession (it needs it, but as I said, it's unlikely).
    A change I think should and could be implemented now is to swap Scourge F4 and F5 and make desert shroud (current F5, new F4) a channel skill. This will put it in line with the core/reaper shroud 4 skill and fix the broken interaction with transfusion as well as making the torment application from desert shroud weaker as it can be cc'ed/ cancelled (maybe increase application to once every 1/2 sec to compensate for this).

  • sarkysek.1085sarkysek.1085 Member ✭✭✭

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    its firebrand that's the problem. necro always has and always will have poor sustain.

    Barrier scourge who stands highground on non port spots has everything but not poor sustain.
    He barely loses any dmg output while kiting around which is the reason why it's so much better than core nec and reaper.

    true I didn't think of that, but that applies to some other ranged classes as well.

    As stated above other range classes cannot deal dmg at the same time while kiting around. This ounterpressure actually makes it pretty easy to kite around and to sustain.
    A deadeye or a longbow soulbeast might stand there but if you engage them they start to kite and then they're not able to deal damage at the same time.

    You forgot about FA Weaver. They kite and do massive damage and CC at the same time.

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    FB is the problem. Necro standing high ground on no port is just a smart play when there is no ranged.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dominik.9721 said:
    As stated above other range classes cannot deal dmg at the same time while kiting around. This ounterpressure actually makes it pretty easy to kite around and to sustain.
    A deadeye or a longbow soulbeast might stand there but if you engage them they start to kite and then they're not able to deal damage at the same time.

    sounds like you have a problem with condis.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    Wonder why 2 builds made to compliment each other and players actually working together communicating are considered toxic and 1shot deathmatchy style is alright in a 5man team game. People want no effort single player games. Otherwise you would want more interactability between classes not removing the class that have it. Fb+scg already can be overwhelmed with +1s in this power burst meta. In low rating i can see how people will struggle with fb+scg but i would rather advice them to "git gud" and outrotate them.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Elementalist Owner.7802 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Wonder why 2 builds made to compliment each other and players actually working together communicating are considered toxic and 1shot deathmatchy style is alright in a 5man team game. People want no effort single player games. Otherwise you would want more interactability between classes not removing the class that have it. Fb+scg already can be overwhelmed with +1s in this power burst meta. In low rating i can see how people will struggle with fb+scg but i would rather advice them to "git gud" and outrotate them.

    Oh boy, this post just shows a tremendous lack of understanding of the issue being discussed. It's almost not worth responding to, but knowing the balance team, they would actually listen to incredibly short-sighted posts like this one.

    The problem with fb/scourge isn't that they work together and communicate. Reaper/tempest worked together in HoT meta and it was fine. The problem is that scourge can stand still and spam endless AoEs on the point while the firebrand spams endless support keeping them both alive. It's faceroll, easy mode, anti-fun garbage like this that has ruined PvP and chased off all former pro players. And no, it's not just fb+scourge that are spammy easy mode trash, but they are by far the longest withstanding offenders, having been a problem since the launch of PoF.

    You are living in the past. If you are not high rated yourself look at streams of high rated players there are many counters to fb+scg comp. You know what is easy mode? Rev, sb, chrono. Scg does not have endless aoe and fb does not have infinite support. You are delusioned by your lack of knowledge of builds, their current performance and their playstyle. Infact scg+fb comp loses to high rotation based very bursty comp and needs to adapt a lot for any chance of win. Yes, in ranked with low skilled players and no communication it would seem like fb+scg is immortal and low effort but it would be false to say it. Fb+scg is the only structure left to gw2 pvp otherwise its a who kills whom first in under a second first clown fiesta. I would rather have deathmatch in such a game than conquest.

  • torben.1532torben.1532 Member ✭✭

    We currently are in a teamfight meta, while you can replace scourge in most teamcomps, for example by running an additional rev/holo etc the firebrand is pretty much a must have in today’s meta. If you don’t have a firebrand you will more than likely not be successful in any 5v5 on high level
    Scourge firebrand comp has been the most dominant ever since pof launch

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2019

    @torben.1532 said:
    We currently are in a teamfight meta, while you can replace scourge in most teamcomps, for example by running an additional rev/holo etc the firebrand is pretty much a must have in today’s meta. If you don’t have a firebrand you will more than likely not be successful in any 5v5 on high level
    Scourge firebrand comp has been the most dominant ever since pof launch

    pls never call this tf meta again.
    a fb + scourge+ 2 revs at its best facesmashing their skills into each other doesn't deserve the name teamfight.

    @XECOR.2814 why are there so many FBs and Scourges nowadays suddenly doing well allthough they were known to be completly bad before PoF?
    Two certain well known FBs played their main class before PoF and were pretty much on the same lvl as silencia on thief. Guess it is so because it's balanced and healthy for the game? Back then you had like 4-5 good necros in this game on EU now you barely notice any difference between a nec main and an irrelevant random player who swapped to scourge.

    Also your point with synergy is just dumb.
    A scourge and FB has much better synergy and is much easier to play than tempest+reaper ever was:

    • Without shroud a FB can spam his heal whenever he wants, while scourge can spam his dmg skills whenever he wants
    • A scourge also supports his fb which was impossible as a reaper/tempest duo
    • Both fb and scourge have the best rezz abilities ingame
    • A scourge keeps damaging while kiting together with a fb which also was not possible as reaper+tempest
  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So frustrating to see that the necromancer barely dodge, never bother to block, just stand there eating the beating and still survive. It's obvious from their gameplay that necromancer's players are mechanically poor, can't they at least use some skills to block, evade skills, give themself vigor or instantly port to avoid taking the burst? It would be a lot less frustrating that hitting them like undying sandbags.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    Brings FB to druid level and problem solved.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Elementalist Owner.7802 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Wonder why 2 builds made to compliment each other and players actually working together communicating are considered toxic and 1shot deathmatchy style is alright in a 5man team game. People want no effort single player games. Otherwise you would want more interactability between classes not removing the class that have it. Fb+scg already can be overwhelmed with +1s in this power burst meta. In low rating i can see how people will struggle with fb+scg but i would rather advice them to "git gud" and outrotate them.

    Oh boy, this post just shows a tremendous lack of understanding of the issue being discussed. It's almost not worth responding to, but knowing the balance team, they would actually listen to incredibly short-sighted posts like this one.

    The problem with fb/scourge isn't that they work together and communicate. Reaper/tempest worked together in HoT meta and it was fine. The problem is that scourge can stand still and spam endless AoEs on the point while the firebrand spams endless support keeping them both alive. It's faceroll, easy mode, anti-fun garbage like this that has ruined PvP and chased off all former pro players. And no, it's not just fb+scourge that are spammy easy mode trash, but they are by far the longest withstanding offenders, having been a problem since the launch of PoF.

    You are living in the past. If you are not high rated yourself look at streams of high rated players there are many counters to fb+scg comp. You know what is easy mode? Rev, sb, chrono. Scg does not have endless aoe and fb does not have infinite support. You are delusioned by your lack of knowledge of builds, their current performance and their playstyle. Infact scg+fb comp loses to high rotation based very bursty comp and needs to adapt a lot for any chance of win. Yes, in ranked with low skilled players and no communication it would seem like fb+scg is immortal and low effort but it would be false to say it. Fb+scg is the only structure left to gw2 pvp otherwise its a who kills whom first in under a second first clown fiesta. I would rather have deathmatch in such a game than conquest.

    What Chrono build are you talking about?

    // Yanim

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @Elementalist Owner.7802 said:

    @XECOR.2814 said:
    Wonder why 2 builds made to compliment each other and players actually working together communicating are considered toxic and 1shot deathmatchy style is alright in a 5man team game. People want no effort single player games. Otherwise you would want more interactability between classes not removing the class that have it. Fb+scg already can be overwhelmed with +1s in this power burst meta. In low rating i can see how people will struggle with fb+scg but i would rather advice them to "git gud" and outrotate them.

    Oh boy, this post just shows a tremendous lack of understanding of the issue being discussed. It's almost not worth responding to, but knowing the balance team, they would actually listen to incredibly short-sighted posts like this one.

    The problem with fb/scourge isn't that they work together and communicate. Reaper/tempest worked together in HoT meta and it was fine. The problem is that scourge can stand still and spam endless AoEs on the point while the firebrand spams endless support keeping them both alive. It's faceroll, easy mode, anti-fun garbage like this that has ruined PvP and chased off all former pro players. And no, it's not just fb+scourge that are spammy easy mode trash, but they are by far the longest withstanding offenders, having been a problem since the launch of PoF.

    You are living in the past. If you are not high rated yourself look at streams of high rated players there are many counters to fb+scg comp. You know what is easy mode? Rev, sb, chrono. Scg does not have endless aoe and fb does not have infinite support. You are delusioned by your lack of knowledge of builds, their current performance and their playstyle. Infact scg+fb comp loses to high rotation based very bursty comp and needs to adapt a lot for any chance of win. Yes, in ranked with low skilled players and no communication it would seem like fb+scg is immortal and low effort but it would be false to say it. Fb+scg is the only structure left to gw2 pvp otherwise its a who kills whom first in under a second first clown fiesta. I would rather have deathmatch in such a game than conquest.

    What Chrono build are you talking about?

    Its a really great build called Mcdoesntexist which offers all the damage, all the defense, all the stealth, and traits into all trait lines. Truly the only build in game worth playing. It's why all the games have 30 chrono on each team. True story!

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Faux Play.6104Faux Play.6104 Member ✭✭✭

    Firebrand scourge is just as bad for the game as no LOS burst.

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Firebrand and Scourge is fine I wouldn't nerf or buff any of the specs.

    We seen Eu Monthly Teams Win tournaments with out a Fb/Necro Combo, It's good to have them in a team comp but as we seen it isn't always the best and most viable combo to have.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    can't they at least use some skills to block, evade skills, give themself vigor or instantly port to avoid taking the burst?

    LOL. if only.

    you don't know till you know, ya know.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    So frustrating to see that the necromancer barely dodge, never bother to block, just stand there eating the beating and still survive. It's obvious from their gameplay that necromancer's players are mechanically poor, can't they at least use some skills to block, evade skills, give themself vigor or instantly port to avoid taking the burst? It would be a lot less frustrating that hitting them like undying sandbags.

    I rather have them move around and be selfish than walking death spiral that chugs barrier. Scourge literally was the one class in the beginning of PoF that not only kicked out Tempest, old Scrapper, and a lot of other HoT specs, but it basically turned mid fight into a keep away hot zone.

    FB I never really cared about. It was literally Scourge that made everyone else's life hell on Earth and forced them to swivel into these builds that we have now.

  • azyume.6321azyume.6321 Member ✭✭

    Risking a chance of stepping on toes of someone who mains scourge, I am going to add my 2 cents coming from observations from fighting scourges in general. In my humble opinion the barrier generation needs to be reduced a notch. The barrier often gives the scourge a safety net buying time until the heal goes off cooldown prolonging their longevity for longer than it should.

    As for firebrand, they are OK despite the spammy nature, I don't see much as an issue.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    So frustrating to see that the necromancer barely dodge, never bother to block, just stand there eating the beating and still survive. It's obvious from their gameplay that necromancer's players are mechanically poor, can't they at least use some skills to block, evade skills, give themself vigor or instantly port to avoid taking the burst? It would be a lot less frustrating that hitting them like undying sandbags.

    I rather have them move around and be selfish than walking death spiral that chugs barrier. Scourge literally was the one class in the beginning of PoF that not only kicked out Tempest, old Scrapper, and a lot of other HoT specs, but it basically turned mid fight into a keep away hot zone.

    FB I never really cared about. It was literally Scourge that made everyone else's life hell on Earth and forced them to swivel into these builds that we have now.

    And scourge was nerfed quite a few time accordingly. I won't say that the shade system is satisfying in any way because it isn't but scourge right now when alone isn't even close to be able to compete on equal ground against other professions. Right now, like most said scourge in sPvP is mostly carried by FB, not the opposite.

  • Lilyanna.9361Lilyanna.9361 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Lilyanna.9361 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    So frustrating to see that the necromancer barely dodge, never bother to block, just stand there eating the beating and still survive. It's obvious from their gameplay that necromancer's players are mechanically poor, can't they at least use some skills to block, evade skills, give themself vigor or instantly port to avoid taking the burst? It would be a lot less frustrating that hitting them like undying sandbags.

    I rather have them move around and be selfish than walking death spiral that chugs barrier. Scourge literally was the one class in the beginning of PoF that not only kicked out Tempest, old Scrapper, and a lot of other HoT specs, but it basically turned mid fight into a keep away hot zone.

    FB I never really cared about. It was literally Scourge that made everyone else's life hell on Earth and forced them to swivel into these builds that we have now.

    And scourge was nerfed quite a few time accordingly. I won't say that the shade system is satisfying in any way because it isn't but scourge right now when alone isn't even close to be able to compete on equal ground against other professions. Right now, like most said scourge in sPvP is mostly carried by FB, not the opposite.

    Oh yeah, that I will agree with that completely. Both of them have made middle experience just...abysmal tbh.

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    Firebrand and Scourge is fine I wouldn't nerf or buff any of the specs.

    We seen Eu Monthly Teams Win tournaments with out a Fb/Necro Combo, It's good to have them in a team comp but as we seen it isn't always the best and most viable combo to have.

    This is not an argument at all, sorry.
    Turret engi as an example never was viable in coordinated PvP but it was super unhealthy and unfun to deal with which is why it got nerfed

    I agree that fb is more of a problem than scourge is. Nevertheless, also scourge carries players to a much better lvl than they actually are - same like fb and that's the main issue that bothers me:

    I don't mind good necros like wing and posi or good fbs like blackjack and flash. But if you see former known bad players suddenly being much better cos they rerolled to those 2 classes, it is then a clear sign that it should get nerfed to a certain extent.

  • HeadCrowned.6834HeadCrowned.6834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2019

    Last mAT indeed showed that FB is so mandatory in somewhat organised PvP, that its both not fun to play or watch. Nerf it.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    I think in any comp that won mAT we havent seen a winner without a FB and probably majority of the winners since mAT's has been fb/scourge comps

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dominik.9721 said:

    I don't mind good necros like wing and posi or good fbs like blackjack and flash. But if you see former known bad players suddenly being much better cos they rerolled to those 2 classes, it is then a clear sign that it should get nerfed to a certain extent.

    Or they just "git gud" and found a profession that suits them. People sometimes get better in the game. Class plays a part but it may not be about that at all. It's not a clear sign at all. As someone who plays multiple classes I can say that some classes do carry better than others. Firebrand is not one of those classes, because alone you can't even bunker a node. You are reliant on your teammates doing things, you're just there to pick them back up if they need it.

    That said, I wouldn't mind if they took a second look at how Firebrand plays. There are way too many Tome pages with the individual skills becoming useless, and honestly I'd like Signet of Mercy to go away.

    At the same time, I'd like Tempest Support back. It needs Stability that doesn't cost all of its condi clear or an important utility slot, and a slight bump in aura healing.

  • bluri.2653bluri.2653 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    I don't mind good necros like wing and posi or good fbs like blackjack and flash. But if you see former known bad players suddenly being much better cos they rerolled to those 2 classes, it is then a clear sign that it should get nerfed to a certain extent.

    Or they just "git gud" and found a profession that suits them. People sometimes get better in the game. Class plays a part but it may not be about that at all. It's not a clear sign at all. As someone who plays multiple classes I can say that some classes do carry better than others. Firebrand is not one of those classes, because alone you can't even bunker a node. You are reliant on your teammates doing things, you're just there to pick them back up if they need it.

    That said, I wouldn't mind if they took a second look at how Firebrand plays. There are way too many Tome pages with the individual skills becoming useless, and honestly I'd like Signet of Mercy to go away.

    At the same time, I'd like Tempest Support back. It needs Stability that doesn't cost all of its condi clear or an important utility slot, and a slight bump in aura healing.

    Signet of Mercy is fine as it is, I like that its added complexity to keep track in order to interrupt - removing this just dumbs down the game even further. Like instead of a scourge just mindlessly spam damage they actually have to keep an eye to try and corrupt or rev/thief to swap to fb in order to rupt. Absolutely no way

    www.twitch.tv/sindrener - Rank 55 Dragons/Orange Logo/Team Aggression

  • dominik.9721dominik.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    Ah ye so since 2012 there wasn't a class that "suited" them but with fb and scourge there finally is one?

    Pls don't lie to yourself, there were many classes that had exactly the same role and equal playstyle. It finally suites them because it is so much easier to play and so much more effective.

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @dominik.9721 said:

    I don't mind good necros like wing and posi or good fbs like blackjack and flash. But if you see former known bad players suddenly being much better cos they rerolled to those 2 classes, it is then a clear sign that it should get nerfed to a certain extent.

    Or they just "git gud" and found a profession that suits them. People sometimes get better in the game. Class plays a part but it may not be about that at all. It's not a clear sign at all. As someone who plays multiple classes I can say that some classes do carry better than others. Firebrand is not one of those classes, because alone you can't even bunker a node. You are reliant on your teammates doing things, you're just there to pick them back up if they need it.

    That said, I wouldn't mind if they took a second look at how Firebrand plays. There are way too many Tome pages with the individual skills becoming useless, and honestly I'd like Signet of Mercy to go away.

    At the same time, I'd like Tempest Support back. It needs Stability that doesn't cost all of its condi clear or an important utility slot, and a slight bump in aura healing.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluri.2653 said:
    Signet of Mercy is fine as it is, I like that its added complexity to keep track in order to interrupt - removing this just dumbs down the game even further. Like instead of a scourge just mindlessly spam damage they actually have to keep an eye to try and corrupt or rev/thief to swap to fb in order to rupt. Absolutely no way

    I rarely see Signet of Mercy getting rupted in the EU MaT. The last month winner had 4 Signet resses and only two manual resses, that's with a Scrapper res bot in teamfights. It's on a success level way higher than other res specs.

    Instead of taking away Signet, what if it did something like this:

    "Humble yourself, suppressing the effects of stability and revive a nearby ally."

    The FB would have to rely on plentiful access to Aegis, peels, LoS, more like Warbanner in Vanilla.

    Only Scourge being able to corr-rupt Mercy just solidifies those two specs.

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • shinta.8906shinta.8906 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    the first corrupt shouldnt be stability into fear.
    they get access to the most usefull condition for them right from the start instead of needing to work towards it.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    Its all very well saying "nerf", but what specifically would you change? Which specific skills/traits?

    FB and Scourge are already very mediocre outside of team-fight. They are already far surpassed by other classes in bunkering, roaming, bursting, and further nerfs would just push them even further into the "must be in a team-fight duo to play" category. How would you nerf them without making them even more worthless outside of teamfight?

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    Less Aoe offense and range or make them melee range and maybe less spam bassed class with is the same issue with FB they rellay to much on stack n spam, this would put them to play with more effort when in group.

    They need to be supporters with barrier and shutdown melee/close combat, Sand savant and greather shade need to be tweaked wich imo is where the scourge problem exist:

    Manifest sand shade need to be casted arround the caster in melee range like a close combat denial, so would be cast from toon on center, 10sec duration is alot as well, drop to 6 sec.
    Remove big shade from Sand Savant and make Sand Savant also reduce the count recharge by 4sec and increase their duration to 8 sec.
    This would force scourges to micro management way more smaller sand shades with a litle help for it, in case player choosing the sand savant.
    This change could make scourges have to put more effort in wvw as well for decent results.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

    That change would be to much overwhelming due how classes and powercreep momentum actually work.
    Probably for that to work, FB should have some sustain by it self, while having less self heal and better healing output, could be tricky on how to balance it, we dont need another scrapper :} in game.

  • Dami.5046Dami.5046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    nerf stealth or at least give classes more counters.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Dami.5046 said:
    nerf stealth or at least give classes more counters.

    Ranger pets should be able to sniff stealthed targets :} even a warclaw can sniff an entire zerg 5k range away lol....

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @shinta.8906 said:
    the first corrupt shouldnt be stability into fear.
    they get access to the most usefull condition for them right from the start instead of needing to work towards it.

    Lul, so instead of not having any hard cc or good stab in class we shouldnt be rewarded for corrupt too. Amazing. Given the fact fear is the only cc that has 4 counters condi cleanse, resistance, breakstun and stab.

  • XECOR.2814XECOR.2814 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    Less Aoe offense and range or make them melee range and maybe less spam bassed class with is the same issue with FB they rellay to much on stack n spam, this would put them to play with more effort when in group.

    They need to be supporters with barrier and shutdown melee/close combat, Sand savant and greather shade need to be tweaked wich imo is where the scourge problem exist:

    Manifest sand shade need to be casted arround the caster in melee range like a close combat denial, so would be cast from toon on center, 10sec duration is alot as well, drop to 6 sec.
    Remove big shade from Sand Savant and make Sand Savant also reduce the count recharge by 4sec and increase their duration to 8 sec.
    This would force scourges to micro management way more smaller sand shades with a litle help for it, in case player choosing the sand savant.
    This change could make scourges have to put more effort in wvw as well for decent results.

    Most of the times scg is out of cds do you want to nerf cds more? I suggest play a build before giving suggestions.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    TeaTime : The Grand Reunion! With Boots, Inks and Brazil!
    Serious talk about toxic imbalance including fb and scourge
    ---where fun must be taken into consideration instead of toxicity---

  • Serenity.6304Serenity.6304 Member ✭✭

    Scourge is my main and although it has nice dmg, it really lacks of sustain, and it's a fair trade-off. As a scourge, at least in plat, where you get focussed, you gotta kite your way through the game and use clever positioning and no-port spots. Without that gameplay, you get killed fast, and by fast I mean REAL fast. So further nerfs are NOT required! Yes, with the fb the duo is OP, but this is not the fault of the scourge. I play solo-queue and I play without a fb, but yeah, it's much harder. With further nerfs, the solo-queue is made impossible for me and NO, I don't want to necessarily play with fb only in the future, I wanna queue alone and whenever I want.

    ~ Miyu Chan

  • Snellibee.2761Snellibee.2761 Member ✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

    That change would be to much overwhelming due how classes and powercreep momentum actually work.
    Probably for that to work, FB should have some sustain by it self, while having less self heal and better healing output, could be tricky on how to balance it, we dont need another scrapper :} in game.

    A healer should not be a tank. A healer is a semi squishy class that with the sole purpose of keeping their teammates alive. The healer should NOT be a tank by itself AND heal their whole team. If a healer gets targeted it should die rather fast if its team is not trying to protect him/her.

    Firebrand is such a big self sustaining tank that they literally do not have to kite or LOS-block whatsoever because they have enough skills keeping them alive while standing still. This is just bad class design in a team class based game.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XECOR.2814 said:

    @shinta.8906 said:
    the first corrupt shouldnt be stability into fear.
    they get access to the most usefull condition for them right from the start instead of needing to work towards it.

    Lul, so instead of not having any hard cc or good stab in class we shouldnt be rewarded for corrupt too. Amazing. Given the fact fear is the only cc that has 4 counters condi cleanse, resistance, breakstun and stab.

    Taunt too.

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @Snellibee.2761 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    But then everyone would target the firebrand more and then make the player rage quit, no thanks.

    That change would be to much overwhelming due how classes and powercreep momentum actually work.
    Probably for that to work, FB should have some sustain by it self, while having less self heal and better healing output, could be tricky on how to balance it, we dont need another scrapper :} in game.

    A healer should not be a tank. A healer is a semi squishy class that with the sole purpose of keeping their teammates alive. The healer should NOT be a tank by itself AND heal their whole team. If a healer gets targeted it should die rather fast if its team is not trying to protect him/her.

    Firebrand is such a big self sustaining tank that they literally do not have to kite or LOS-block whatsoever because they have enough skills keeping them alive while standing still. This is just bad class design in a team class based game.

    You clearly haven't played much FB.

    If you try and stand still and face-tank when getting focused in a 4v4 on mid, you WILL explode just as fast as any other class. FASTER infact, because FB doesn't carry any scaling defenses (invuln, evade). Aegis is powerful in a 1v1, but basically useless if there are 3+ people hitting you. If there are 3 damage classes focusing you, you MUST start kiting, LOS'ing, or getting peels from team-mates. Just the same as any other class.

    There is a reason that FB isn't picked by players who want to troll-bunker on far. That's because it's a kitten bunker that dies very easily if it finds itself outnumbered. Scrapper, Chrono, Soulbeast, Weaver, all infinitely better.

    Its true that if you're holding a point 1v1, you can just stand still and face-tank. But it just isn't true in a team-fight against even slightly competent opponents.

  • Revolution.5409Revolution.5409 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    You clearly haven't played much FB.

    If you try and stand still and face-tank when getting focused in a 4v4 on mid, you WILL explode just as fast as any other class. FASTER infact, because FB doesn't carry any scaling defenses (invuln, evade). Aegis is powerful in a 1v1, but basically useless if there are 3+ people hitting you. If there are 3 damage classes focusing you, you MUST start kiting, LOS'ing, or getting peels from team-mates. Just the same as any other class.

    There is a reason that FB isn't picked by players who want to troll-bunker on far. That's because it's a kitten bunker that dies very easily if it finds itself outnumbered. Scrapper, Chrono, Soulbeast, Weaver, all infinitely better.

    Its true that if you're holding a point 1v1, you can just stand still and face-tank. But it just isn't true in a team-fight against even slightly competent opponents.

    But there is also a reason why it is chosen by all as support in team fights, and the reason is simple, it is better than other professions that play the same role, and this is already a valid reason to request a nerf to a profession that in terms of team support has too many skills, unlike the others.
    All dueling professions have an alternative, FB has no rivals.

  • Chunsu.5281Chunsu.5281 Member ✭✭

    Oh just dominik that lost some queues vs a Firebrand so there has to be instantly a thread about " Scourge and Firebrand " being insta win. Lets not complain about the true issues like Revenant or Scrapper for example. But obviously u complain depending on how you feel rather than looking at the game in a rational way. There has been plenty of comps proven that work without Scourge - mainly due to excessive class stacking ( e.g. Revenant or Mesmer ). Firebrand is a must have in any comp right now because it is the support spec that is most superior to any other support spec available and supporting is an effective part of Conquest - it was not much different in HoT everyone spammed Tempest and Druids for their competitive comps. and about Chaith's comment that there were way too many Signets going out in the last monthly AT, this is mainly happening because of the lack of thieves in that specific monthly - which are the most effective way of disrupting a Firebrands Signet.

    Overall nerfing Firebrand would just result in a supportless Meta which we are directing towards already - everyone is gonna spam Blood Scourge stack instead and play oneshot specs like chrono/deadeye/LB ranger - im afraid if a supportless Meta is gonna be more "skillfull" seems rather like who gets the better opening and bursts someone for 40k first :)

  • Ragnar.4257Ragnar.4257 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @Revolution.5409 said:

    @Ragnar.4257 said:
    You clearly haven't played much FB.

    If you try and stand still and face-tank when getting focused in a 4v4 on mid, you WILL explode just as fast as any other class. FASTER infact, because FB doesn't carry any scaling defenses (invuln, evade). Aegis is powerful in a 1v1, but basically useless if there are 3+ people hitting you. If there are 3 damage classes focusing you, you MUST start kiting, LOS'ing, or getting peels from team-mates. Just the same as any other class.

    There is a reason that FB isn't picked by players who want to troll-bunker on far. That's because it's a kitten bunker that dies very easily if it finds itself outnumbered. Scrapper, Chrono, Soulbeast, Weaver, all infinitely better.

    Its true that if you're holding a point 1v1, you can just stand still and face-tank. But it just isn't true in a team-fight against even slightly competent opponents.

    But there is also a reason why it is chosen by all as support in team fights, and the reason is simple, it is better than other professions that play the same role, and this is already a valid reason to request a nerf to a profession that in terms of team support has too many skills, unlike the others.
    All dueling professions have an alternative, FB has no rivals.

    I don't disagree. What I was calling out is that you need to find ways to bring FB down in its team-fight support capability, WITHOUT completely gimping it in other areas. Don't just indiscriminately throw around nerfs to stuff that hurt non-meta builds more than they hurt the meta support.

    Areas to focus on would maybe be healing-output-to-others (Force of Will, Invigorating Bulwark), and reducing the radius/range on some of the support skills so that the FB can't simultaneously support everyone on Foefire-Mid, and will have to prioritise. For example, the resistance field on Courage, has a radius of 360. Trim it down to 300. If that's not enough, trim it down to 240 (same as a necromancer Well).

    There are smart ways to go about this, and then there are stupid ways (see suggestions above that FB shouldn't be able to self-heal :/ )

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Snellibee.2761 said:
    I think it would be cool if they made firebrands self heal less. That way they act as a support for their teammates but they can't bunker themselves at the same time. It would make it necessary for the whole team to protect the firebrand or to run a second healer to compensate for self heal loss.

    It's basically the same like in other games with medics, they can heal their teammates really well but they can't heal themselves as much, making it necessary to protect the medic.

    This please.

    The interaction between FB and scourge is strong, to be sure, but the reason it's problematic is FB is so kitten good at surviving while performing its healing function.

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