No downed state has shown the true potential of WvW — Guild Wars 2 Forums

No downed state has shown the true potential of WvW

dice.4968dice.4968 Member

Of course, it was not polished, but the experience was already significantly better than without downed state. Gameplay went from "let me shove these two blobs into each other and see which one is bigger" to actually being skill based. A part of the community will be upset, if Anet removes downed state, because they will need to adjust their build/ team composition, step up their game and give the developers a bit of time to do balance iterations. However, when all things are said and done, this game mode is going to be better and increase in player base.
Some initial changes could be:

  • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
  • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
  • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

Comments

  • Ganathar.4956Ganathar.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:
    Of course, it was not polished, but the experience was already significantly better than without downed state. Gameplay went from "let me shove these two blobs into each other and see which one is bigger" to actually being skill based. A part of the community will be upset, if Anet removes downed state, because they will need to adjust their build/ team composition, step up their game and give the developers a bit of time to do balance iterations. However, when all things are said and done, this game mode is going to be better and increase in player base.
    Some initial changes could be:

    • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
    • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
    • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

    Given the track record of the balance team, the massive changes needed to make no downstate even remotely decent would take them approximately 5 years if they started working on it now. The same broken builds have been running rampant for over 1.5 years since PoF launch, and you expect them to make way larger changes than those that they are currently incapable of doing in a timely manner?

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    a group of 5 soulbeasts pin sniping commanders, then watch how the rest of their zerg scatters while yours destroys them

    The elusive soulbeast that is so bad it should not be played in zergs, yet is so overpowered that it must be designed around

    you mean, 1 week in 6 months they are useful?

    unblockable, 1800 range and oh normally that's of zero issue, there is enough support to keep a guy up.

    but now we get to the topic again: no downed state. might aswell remove everything rez related then: traits, utilities, runes, class mechanics, warclaw, you name it

  • Kylden Ar.3724Kylden Ar.3724 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:
    Of course, it was not polished, but the experience was already significantly better than without downed state. Gameplay went from "let me shove these two blobs into each other and see which one is bigger" to actually being skill based. A part of the community will be upset, if Anet removes downed state, because they will need to adjust their build/ team composition, step up their game and give the developers a bit of time to do balance iterations. However, when all things are said and done, this game mode is going to be better and increase in player base.
    Some initial changes could be:

    • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
    • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
    • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

    How bout no?

    Now, leaving downed and reviving other players, but removing the Rally mechanic that carries people in bad PvE builds... sure. We could do that.

    How many times we gotta tell you GRIND IS NOT CONTENT there ANet?

    Leader of Tyrian Adventure Corp [TACO], [RaW][TACO] Alliance, Kaineng.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Everything is a subjective opinion. I found the combat faster and not better. At the end of the week, it was downright boring. No excitement in small scale. People just poof went down and then you won.

    That's not the players fault it's the idea of balance in WvW.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @dice.4968 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    a group of 5 soulbeasts pin sniping commanders, then watch how the rest of their zerg scatters while yours destroys them

    The elusive soulbeast that is so bad it should not be played in zergs, yet is so overpowered that it must be designed around

    you mean, 1 week in 6 months they are useful?

    unblockable, 1800 range and oh normally that's of zero issue, there is enough support to keep a guy up.

    but now we get to the topic again: no downed state. might aswell remove everything rez related then: traits, utilities, runes, class mechanics, warclaw, you name it

    Sounds like a small to decent fix to the game mode :}

  • Anput.4620Anput.4620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Terrahero.9358 said:
    You're pretty delusional if you think this would ever be the norm.

    The sheer number of changes that would need to be made are ridiculous. Traits, skills and even class mechanics that are build around the core mechanic of the downed state.
    On top of that balance in general, as finishing a downed enemy off is often the only serious drawback for certain squishy glass cannon builds. Who have no right doing the damage they do if there was no downed state.

    To much work to please only a small portion of the community. Not going to happen.
    If they want to improve WvW all they have to do is remove the Warclaw mount

    I can actually agree on something with you.

  • Alehin.3746Alehin.3746 Member ✭✭✭

    Potential? You mean everyone hiding and playing like the game is perma-death while a few others play 1-shot builds? LOL

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    get a group of pew pew rangers and de to pick down their scourages with no down state, probably the best way to resolve the toxic blob meta right now

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  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:

    Some initial changes could be:

    • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
    • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
    • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

    I read and I try to understand if you are serious or you try to troll us. Because you propose a change who will change nothing. Let's see:

    You want: Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds
    We have: Downed players can be finished - making a revive impossible (if you are in combat you cannot revive someone)

    You want: Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players
    We have: Skills used to pick up downed players.

    You want: Allow players to revive dead players while in combat
    We have: The players are allowed to revive downed players while in combat.

    So, you basically want to change the word "downed" with "dead" and keeping everithing else at it is now. Well, I think this change can be performed in one hour by any ANet developer - to change a word.

  • dice.4968dice.4968 Member

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @dice.4968 said:

    Some initial changes could be:

    • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
    • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
    • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

    I read and I try to understand if you are serious or you try to troll us. Because you propose a change who will change nothing. Let's see:

    You want: Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds
    We have: Downed players can be finished - making a revive impossible (if you are in combat you cannot revive someone)

    You want: Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players
    We have: Skills used to pick up downed players.

    You want: Allow players to revive dead players while in combat
    We have: The players are allowed to revive downed players while in combat.

    So, you basically want to change the word "downed" with "dead" and keeping everithing else at it is now. Well, I think this change can be performed in one hour by any ANet developer - to change a word.

    Did not think this would have to be explained... but here we go.

    • No more rally. Promotes skill over blob size.
    • In combat you have to revive a dead player at a reduced rate instead of reviving a downed player. This makes it super situational. Can still pick up a dead player while someone keeps you in combat poking from the distance or if you really need that player. Just spamming revive to abuse blob size is not an option anymore.
    • After the fight dead players can still be picked up. However, if a position is overrun, the dead players can be finished. This means that those players will be forced to run again and not chill and hope their team pushes back in and picks them up.
    • TL;DR Player quantity still super important. Player quality becomes more impartant.
  • Ferus.3165Ferus.3165 Member ✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:

    @dice.4968 said:

    Some initial changes could be:

    • Allow players to revive dead players while in combat (at a reduced rate)
    • Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players (adjusted values)
    • Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds

    I read and I try to understand if you are serious or you try to troll us. Because you propose a change who will change nothing. Let's see:

    You want: Dead players can be finished - making a revive impossible and forcing a teleport to a waypoint within 30 seconds
    We have: Downed players can be finished - making a revive impossible (if you are in combat you cannot revive someone)

    You want: Skills that were used to pick up downed players now affect dead players
    We have: Skills used to pick up downed players.

    You want: Allow players to revive dead players while in combat
    We have: The players are allowed to revive downed players while in combat.

    So, you basically want to change the word "downed" with "dead" and keeping everithing else at it is now. Well, I think this change can be performed in one hour by any ANet developer - to change a word.

    Did not think this would have to be explained... but here we go.

    • No more rally. Promotes skill over blob size.
    • In combat you have to revive a dead player at a reduced rate instead of reviving a downed player. This makes it super situational. Can still pick up a dead player while someone keeps you in combat poking from the distance or if you really need that player. Just spamming revive to abuse blob size is not an option anymore.
    • After the fight dead players can still be picked up. However, if a position is overrun, the dead players can be finished. This means that those players will be forced to run again and not chill and hope their team pushes back in and picks them up.
    • TL;DR Player quantity still super important. Player quality becomes more impartant.

    this sounds actually good tbh

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @dice.4968 said:
    [...]

    • No more rally. Promotes skill over blob size.
    • It does not. Numbers will always have the advantage regardless of revive mechanic. If you have rally and downed, because allies can spare more people to revive downed players while keeping enemies at bay. When there's no rally or downed, because they have numbers to take out more enemies, then leave combat to revive allies. The only way to deal with numbers if giving very, very good reasons for players to spread about instead joining in large zergs, and that'll require substantial changes across all of the Mist War maps to discourage "musical chairs" style of running around in circles keeping mostly keeps and towers and being mostly on the move except for a couple of scouts to slow down enemy attackers until the large army arrives.
    • Knowing what enemy to focus when you are down to get rally from them, now that one enemy will only rally one ally, ensures that if everyone mindlessly aims for the same downed enemy, they'll waste their time and risk getting focused by enemies. But if they skillfully communicate and pick different targets, they can get rallied faster and sooner. This ensures that even in lower numbers skilled groups can take bigger ones that are more random and aimless.
    • In combat you have to revive a dead player at a reduced rate instead of reviving a downed player. This makes it super situational. Can still pick up a dead player while someone keeps you in combat poking from the distance or if you really need that player. Just spamming revive to abuse blob size is not an option anymore.
    • No. Defeated players should only be revivable with waypoints, checkpoints and by leaving combat. Not just in WvW, in all of the game. They should apply this not just to WvW and raids, but to everywhere in the game, even lower end PvE. Players need to get used to helping downed players ASAP, but ignoring defeated players, and that using waypoints and running back is the best thing they can possibly do other than staying alive and not going down in the first place. The revive prompt shouldn't even appear while in combat, same as with "Talk" prompts for NPCs that won't talk in combat. It's just clutter.
    • After the fight dead players can still be picked up. However, if a position is overrun, the dead players can be finished. This means that those players will be forced to run again and not chill and hope their team pushes back in and picks them up.
    • No. Those players would be lying around doing nothing. That's particularly boring this is a game, not a serious war simulator. We have no spectator mode to see the fights from the perspective of other players while downed, so staying on the ground doing nothing is only boring and should be discouraged. Once a player is down, the time they stay down should never be too long. 5 mins before being forcibly teleported to waypoint is already too much time for defeated to be laying on the ground, specially now that there's mounts to come back sooner.
    • TL;DR Player quantity still super important. Player quality becomes more impartant.
    • As I mentioned before, there's no way to avoid that. No matter the circumstances, whatever changes you make will affect both skilled and unskilled players. Differences in skill between players will always show regardless of the rules. When you see particular differences between non-downstate and normal gameplay it isn't because of 'less skilled players' being carried by downed state, it's because of gimmick builds being particularly effective with no downstate because they do not have enough proper counters or counters that make builds to counter them less useful or fun. Not knowing or refusing to use such gimmicks is not "lack of skill" as there's players who will find suck builds dishonorable or boring. There's a reason why there's so often forbidden characters, cards, classes or tactics and changes in rules in player-made tournaments, just because something it's in the game and allowed by the devs won't make it fair or reasonable, or fun.
    • The only way we could possible have a way to reduce the advantage of numbers would be making it impossible. Like using the Territory system to reduce how many players from each team can be effective in a territory, to keep the numbers equal. For example, entering a camp would limit players from each team to 5. Any past that would become 'mist ghosts' and turn all ghostly and not visible by enemies, and unable to attack enemies, players out of combat would be able to 'tag' each other with a special action skill to switch places, but the max number of effective players in any location would be capped. There could be also 10 for towers, 15 for keeps, 20 for Stonemist castle. But that would be horribly boring, and so it should not be done, because this is a game, after all, and it has to be fun first and foremost.
      Not fun for just a few who claim ownership of any particular game mode, fun for as many players as possible.
  • TheGrimm.5624TheGrimm.5624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Disclosure I like the no down state events. That said I don't think we are at the point to remove it and would also like to see a no-revive week where the dead are dead and forced to respawn. Wouldn't also mind testing a no-revive no rally week. That way if the zerg has down members they either need to get them back up or expect them to run back. Aka no downstate isn't quite the answer, a losing zerg can still bring all their people back without any penalty. No downstate events favor smaller groups versus larger but that also might be addressing by changes to rally and revive (rez).

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  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Everything is a subjective opinion. I found the combat faster and not better. At the end of the week, it was downright boring. No excitement in small scale. People just poof went down and then you won.

    Sounds like any day in WvW for me tbh. The one thing that was different about the event though was once a player was down, you could immediately move on to another target, rather than having to focus the downed players. Additionally, there were no 'surprise' rallys that dramatically shifted the flow of the fight. Not talking about people getting revived, I'm talking about those who dropped in the initial bomb, but as they had tagged some players before going down, got to be rallied when the players that ran past them were downed themselves.

    No more commanders barking about 'finish those downs, omg so many downs', and bombing someone on the wall now yields permanent results. I found I enjoyed this past week more than I thought possible.

    At the same time I'm not going to decry the existence of downed state - it is what it is.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    but now we get to the topic again: no downed state. might aswell remove everything rez related then: traits, utilities, runes, class mechanics, warclaw, you name it

    Sounds great where do I sign?

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @melandru.3876 said:

    @dice.4968 said:

    @melandru.3876 said:
    a group of 5 soulbeasts pin sniping commanders, then watch how the rest of their zerg scatters while yours destroys them

    The elusive soulbeast that is so bad it should not be played in zergs, yet is so overpowered that it must be designed around

    you mean, 1 week in 6 months they are useful?

    unblockable, 1800 range and oh normally that's of zero issue, there is enough support to keep a guy up.

    but now we get to the topic again: no downed state. might aswell remove everything rez related then: traits, utilities, runes, class mechanics, warclaw, you name it

    Uhh,...warclaw isnt rez related (cant rez or doesnt help with rez).

    However im down with all the other items you mentioned...LETS DO THIS!!!!

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @dice.4968 said:

    Did not think this would have to be explained... but here we go.

    • No more rally. Promotes skill over blob size.
    • In combat you have to revive a dead player at a reduced rate instead of reviving a downed player. This makes it super situational. Can still pick up a dead player while someone keeps you in combat poking from the distance or if you really need that player. Just spamming revive to abuse blob size is not an option anymore.
    • After the fight dead players can still be picked up. However, if a position is overrun, the dead players can be finished. This means that those players will be forced to run again and not chill and hope their team pushes back in and picks them up.
    • TL;DR Player quantity still super important. Player quality becomes more impartant.

    Basically, all you ask here comes against the measures demanded by players and implemented by ANet.

    Do you remember all the updates to the objective defense? In the sense of making the objective harder to defend if you don't have a number of defenders comparable with the size of the attacking group?
    The argument used here was: "if you don't have enough players then you should lose an objective". This in the case of a fortified position, easier to defend than an open field.

    And you want now exactly the opposite - to win a larger group with a few fighters. Think a little: Few players cannot defend a T3 fortified tower against a large group of enemy despite the position being easier and favorizing them. But, if instead of defending they go outside, in the open field, without any protection and buff (from Objective Aura) they can win. Are you sure?

    Until now, any change promeoted by ANet favorizing this stetement "Player quantity still super important. Player quality becomes more impartant." resulted in reducing the number of players playing that game mode (see raids for example).

    Let the WvW be. And think at something giving all the players the same advantage, not only to some builds. Yes, roaming is a thing in WvW. But it is not the only thing. If your roaming team lose to a zerg it is normal. What is not normal (and you try to promote this abnormality) is to win over a zerg.

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Here's something funny, all the battle royale games, you know the most popular game genre right now, have down state.

    Another derailing post. ^^
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  • Assassin X.8573Assassin X.8573 Member ✭✭
    edited May 12, 2019

    DAoC RVR the precursor to WVW in GW2 (and all massive open world battle mmos) had no down state. It did have resurection spells for a dead player.

    GW1 had no down state and it also had resurection skills.

  • DeadlySynz.3471DeadlySynz.3471 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Here's something funny, all the battle royale games, you know the most popular game genre right now, have down state.

    Doesn't make it right through.

    Either way, downed state isn't going anywhere, so the game mode will continue to bleed players due to the numbers issue. Of all things, the one thing that favors numbers the most is downed state. Yet numbers is the one thing that people get uppity about because it leads to population imbalance and chronic server hopping which inevitably kills some servers.

    Take away down state and you take away the numbers problem; because groups who habitually rely on it (sustain groups), will get decimated by less than a handful of players.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DeadlySynz.3471 said:

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    Here's something funny, all the battle royale games, you know the most popular game genre right now, have down state.

    Doesn't make it right through.

    Either way, downed state isn't going anywhere, so the game mode will continue to bleed players due to the numbers issue. Of all things, the one thing that favors numbers the most is downed state. Yet numbers is the one thing that people get uppity about because it leads to population imbalance and chronic server hopping which inevitably kills some servers.

    Take away down state and you take away the numbers problem; because groups who habitually rely on it (sustain groups), will get decimated by less than a handful of players.

    I think more people would leave because 50% of every map would be cheesy hit and run 1shot builds. Objectives would never flip because you could always kill 1 target with 2 people every 10 seconds (not to mention power of portal and zerker/reaper/daredevil burst).

    I see numbers "problem" being thrown around in every discussion, but what exactly are you expecting from a game mode designed around large scale fighting in an MMO? If you don't want to fight overstacked servers then control your ppt better. I find it hard to believe that enemy constantly has bigger numbers in every single matchup, 24/7.

    Considering that every time I mention transfer people go "but muh server pride", how about you organise as a server and get numbers the enemy is getting?

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  • wtb forum moderator to merge these threads.

    managing downstate is a learn to play issue.

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