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Proposing a better alternative.


Aridon.8362

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Obviously the player base is half-sided in no downstate opinions. The things that truly need to be fixed are finally realized here and the better part is that we can get an idea of what direction to push WvW in.

So here's a proposal, too many people depend on down state this much is true. Too many people abuse downstate and that's also true. So the better idea is to

1) Nerf downstate so that it doesn't have 100% chance to trigger at 0 hp to 33% chance.

2) Nerf bursty 1-shot builds in WvW but leave PvE builds alone to force the players to have longer prolonged battles.

The #1 thing players have ached about in WvW is that classes are unbalanced, when PoF came out scourge was the reason fights only lasted like 2 seconds on engagement. Mechanics like corruption and boon strip really took away the ability to support within seconds, and dodge rolling away was pretty hard to do back then due to the immob spam. We haven't come a long way from this dillema, and the fact that commanders have considered classes to be non meta shows how big of a mistake it is to have such a disparity.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone WvW players...

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

You mean all the teams that are no longer with the game and haven't been since ESL pulled away from GW2? They also played before Path of Fire, which was where Anet started to really double down on adding dedicated healers into the game with Firebrand and have only increased healing since then? Scrapper, Tempest and now Ventari Rev are all viable healing builds, and strong ones at that. I've seen this retort before, it doesn't hold as much weight as you think because this isn't 2016 anymore and ESL is long gone along with those teams.

No one wants revives removed, they want the system made better to keep balance with the way the state of the game is now. Downed State was designed with no dedicated healing in mind because Anet didn't intend to add it at the release of the game. Now we have dedicated healers and Downed State is still here.

Let me repost something I've posted elsewhere to elaborate more...

Personally I love No Downed state. It does make winning outnumbered fights much easier since people aren't carried by downed state and rally, which many, many people are.

Its why I've tried to advocate for discussion around completely reworking revives as a mechanic in GW2 in PvP modes like sPvP and WvW, especially considering how strong and abundant healing builds are now. They literally just buffed Ventari Rev and made it stronger. So not only do we have Firebrand, Scrapper and Tempest (which also got a healing buff in the last patch) but now we have Revenant with a healing build. Downed State is becoming redundant and problematic as a "support" mechanic for players. Do I want them to remove reviving as a mechanic in the game? No. Not at all. I want them to improve it. I would much rather them remove downed state and add/change some skills that heal or revive Downed players so that it brings them back to life from full dead but put those skills, like Battle Standard, onto 5 minute cooldowns (also only making them revive 1 player) so they aren't available too frequently but still allow for clutch revives during fights. The longer cooldown and tying it to a skill with a cooldown would just allow for much better and healthier counterplay.

Would it make these skills required for zerg play or group play? Yes but I don't see a problem with that, at competitive levels in GW1 GvG and otherwise Res Signet was essentially required in builds for most players with maybe the exception of 1 or 2 people on your team. It would also create more diversity among zergs if you, for example, make sure a set couple of Spellbreakers use Winds of Disenchantment but also make sure several have Battle Standard available. It would mean coordinating for revives during a zerg vs zerg fight would be an important and tactical aspect of winning, surviving or prolonging the engagement.

Oh and in regards to the Scrapper Function Gyro mechanic also being made "obsolete" should something like this happen....Anet can turn it into an actual active use skill on or adjacent to the Toolbelt skills and have it function purely as a support skill. Basically a drone defibrillator that the Scrapper sends out to revive an ally.

Another thing to address in regards to an argument against it that I see sometimes, also one that people say is the reason why Anet would never do this; Finishers.

Anet makes money off of Finishers as a cosmetic item from the Gem Store. This is true and if they removed downed state and stomping from the game then they would essentially be nullifying and "deleting" an entire subset of cash shop items. Some people have suggested that they simply change it so that if you land the "killing blow" on an enemy that your finisher is the one that applies over their body when they die. People are right in that it could cause lag and such in an already laggy mode for many.

I have a different solution. Turn it into an emote or an effect similar to Novelties. Players already "taunt" with /laugh or /sleep and other things that even enemy players can see and they already throw siege onto your corpse if they want to "bm" you, and the premise of Finishers is already kind of a taunt, don't you think? Dropping an SAB pixel explosion onto that enemy you just downed? The Llama finisher? Choya? Hidden Minstrel? All rather...taunting but "fun" and "funny", right? So if the concern for Anet is that Finishers would just become obsolete then why not shift their use? Turn them into "Taunts" or "Boasts", I'm sure there could be another name. It would also make it something usable in PvE and probably give more incentive to PvE players to actually buy these cosmetic items as they wouldn't need to play in PvP to see something they spent money or gems on.

To add: I see one shot builds brought up frequently in the discussion. If you're getting one shot by a Soulbeast or Deadeye...downed state isn't stopping that. Its just creating the illusion of you "not being 1 shot". You're still getting dropped in like 1 hit from either Ranger GS2 or Deadeye Malicious Backstab and downed state doesn't actually stop that. Anet does need to do something about why these builds are a problem, for Soulbeast its that they can stack so many damage modifiers at once, stealth and then do this with a melee attack or an unblockable rapid fire skill (I still think they need to move Rapid Fire and give Longbow a single shot snipe skill) and for Deadeye its the perma, or near perma, stealthing. That little nerf to the stealth duration on Silent Scope didn't actually do much. They need an ICD on that trait, its literally the only way to balance it out so that a Deadeye can't stealth every time they dodge. As for Arc Divider from Berserker; that is more than likely going to get nerfed next patch, I have no question about that.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

You mean all the teams that are no longer with the game and haven't been since ESL pulled away from GW2? They also played
before
Path of Fire, which was where Anet started to really double down on adding dedicated healers into the game with Firebrand and have only increased healing since then? Scrapper, Tempest and now Ventari Rev are all viable healing builds, and strong ones at that. I've seen this retort before, it doesn't hold as much weight as you think because this isn't 2016 anymore and ESL is long gone along with those teams.

That those teams have gone is irrelevant, they are simply used as an example to illustrate how downstate favors better players contrary to the BS some spout, because it requires more decision making, more teamwork, etc. And guess what, that hasn't changed.

No one wants revives removed, they want the system made better to keep balance with the way the state of the game is now. Downed State was designed with no dedicated healing in mind because Anet didn't intend to add it at the release of the game. Now we have dedicated healers and Downed State is still here.

Except firstly for the most part they aren't really dedicated healers, not in the way of traditional MMORPGs, "healers" in GW2 are generally more like support / secondary healers and even then they are generally very AOE focused. And secondly whilst I agree healing has increased, so has everything else, there is more damage, more boon removal / corruption, more CC, etc, so healing does not have as much weight as you think.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone bad WvW players.

You mean all the teams that are no longer with the game and haven't been since ESL pulled away from GW2? They also played
before
Path of Fire, which was where Anet started to really double down on adding dedicated healers into the game with Firebrand and have only increased healing since then? Scrapper, Tempest and now Ventari Rev are all viable healing builds, and strong ones at that. I've seen this retort before, it doesn't hold as much weight as you think because this isn't 2016 anymore and ESL is long gone along with those teams.

That those teams have gone is irrelevant, they are simply used as an example to illustrate how downstate favors better players contrary to the BS some spout, because it requires more decision making, more teamwork, etc. And guess what, that hasn't changed.

No one wants revives removed, they want the system made better to keep balance with the way the state of the game is now. Downed State was designed with
no
dedicated healing in mind because Anet didn't intend to add it at the release of the game. Now we have dedicated healers and Downed State is still here.

Except firstly for the most part they aren't really dedicated healers, not in the way of traditional MMORPGs, "healers" in GW2 are generally more like support / secondary healers and even then they are generally very AOE focused. And secondly whilst I agree healing has increased, so has everything else, there is more damage, more boon removal / corruption, more CC, etc, so healing does not have as much weight as you think.

That those teams have gone is relevant. They left before PoF released, ESL ended before PoF released. The state of the game changed even more drastically with that expansion. Firebrand was a healing fortress in sPvP, thats why they nerfed it, but it is still one of the strongest healers in the game. You're referencing a time period for the game that is not reflective of what the game is today. Thats like saying "Hambow Warrior was super strong back pre-HoT, thats why its still meta today" it isn't because balance has significantly changed since that time.

You can regurgitate the line that has been fed for years now of "There really isn't any healing, there is support" when that doesn't hold true at all these days. You can literally run around with a pocket healer now in WvW, even in sPvP, in the form of Firebrand, Tempest, Scrapper or now Ventari Rev. I've seen it and been the recipient of it. Even if they are AoE focused, the healing effect does not lessen just because you are healing more than 1 target. This game has dedicated healers now. The builds used by Firebrands, Scrappers, Tempests and Ventari Heralds are built for healing. They don't use Minstel's for the Vitality.

I think healing holds more weight than you think, honestly. If someone is playing their healer well you see a noticeable difference in team survival, and avoiding boon corruption / removal is all a matter of positioning. Downed State has given people who don't do that a pretty handy safety net outside of zerg vs zerg fights, thats why they typically end faster during no downed state weeks. They don't position well, they don't try to avoid or bait out corrupts/strips, its just clash of the blobs and see who spams better. Either to "convert" downs or to finish downs. Thats not tactical...thats just squishing your hand onto the keyboard.

For sure its possible to zerg bust still, but the effort expended by that smaller group to wipe a very clearly more inferior group, even if larger, is just way too weighted in the favor of the larger group. The larger group doesn't have to bother timing anything, they don't have to position terribly well and they have the added safety of downed state where their buddies can just put 3+ people on them to bring them right back into it.

A "downed state" might add a tactical element in games like Apex Legends or PUBG or whichever other Battle Royale you play, and it may have at one point in time contributed as an important tactical aspect of gameplay in GW2...but not anymore.

I want revives improved so that reviving a teammate actually is a tactical investment and move during a fight but it isn't tied to a no cooldown mechanic that has sluggish counterplay aspects. I would much, much rather revives be tied to skills with cooldowns that have a much healthier counterplay aspect.

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@steki.1478 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

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@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:That those teams have gone is relevant. They left before PoF released, ESL ended before PoF released. The state of the game changed even more drastically with that expansion. Firebrand was a healing fortress in sPvP, thats why they nerfed it, but it is still one of the strongest healers in the game. You're referencing a time period for the game that is not reflective of what the game is today. Thats like saying "Hambow Warrior was super strong back pre-HoT, thats why its still meta today" it isn't because balance has significantly changed since that time.

It is nothing like referencing a hambow and those teams being gone makes absolute zero difference. Downstate being handled better by more skilled players has not changed, that it adds an extra level of teamwork, decision making, favours those with better awareness, etc has not changed, hence it does not matter if use TCG, Orange logo, etc or some other guild that still plays, I only use TCG/Orange Logo because they are more "famous" than anyone still left in the borderline dead game modes of PvP/WvW.

Go get 5 players in some roaming guild (if there are any left) who have played for years, guess what they will handle downstate better than 5 random guys from PvE who play WvW once a week for a bit of fun, better players use downstate more effectively than worse players, nothing has changed.

You can regurgitate the line that has been fed for years now of "There really isn't any healing, there is support" when that doesn't hold true at all these days. You can literally run around with a pocket healer now in WvW, even in sPvP, in the form of Firebrand, Tempest, Scrapper or now Ventari Rev.

You can regurgitate the line about healers as much as you want, but if you think say a Scrapper pocket healing someone is anywhere near the level of say a cleric in say Rift 1.6(ish) then you are badly mistaken, the "healers" in this game are simply not on the same level as traditional MMORPG healers. And of course they wear ministrel's what do you expect support who do little damage are largely frontline so vit/tough are useful and have boons as well as healing as part of their support to wear? Berserker?

For sure its possible to zerg bust still, but the effort expended by that smaller group to wipe a very clearly more inferior group...

Who cares? I mean let's be real all the talk of "skill" in WvW is BS, no one who genuinely wants skilled, competitive PVP is playing WvW in 2019. If I reinstall this game go roaming and kill two guys who have played a month and basically have no idea what they are doing, that isn't skill (sorry bads I know the truth hurts) it is just trash tier PvP. (and let's not even go into things like the two guys I kill could be a couple of 60 year olds, ohh, much skill I am so good...)

The basis of skilled PvP is competition, which in terms of fights (because that is the simplistic level of WvW players still playing who think they are "skilled") then that means fighting against opponents with similar experience and similar priorities. This is why people tried to do GvG, that was the only way to get something approaching skilled PvP, in a game mode that lacks the systems to provide it, bads crying because they can't "bust" zergs who cares, PvE heroes.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone WvW players...

Of course they can manage downs, it's structured PvP so the teams ALWAYS have even numbers. You just straight jump to sPvP in the WvW discussion of how downstate is a carry and heavy favors whoever has greater numbers.

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@TinkTinkPOOF.9201 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone WvW players...

Of course they can manage downs, it's structured PvP so the teams ALWAYS have even numbers. You just straight jump to sPvP in the WvW discussion of how downstate is a carry and heavy favors whoever has greater numbers.

Virtually every mechanic in the game favours more numbers.

If I reinstall this game then go roaming with some other guy and we meet an opposing group of 4, then guess what, any AOE / Group heals, cleanses, boons, reflects, auras, etc will have more effect and favour those 4 over the same things on my group of 2, same thing with body blocking, even how much more pressure will be on our stun breaks than the group of four and so on. So I guess we should just remove all group / AOE skills, because they "carry" larger groups.

Or you could learn that you don't design and balance a game on the basis of unequal numbers.

And guess what, even in WvW when you do get equal numbers, then guess what, the more skilled (or at least more organised) players will generally make better use of downstate in that situation, downstate rewards skill.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:That those teams have gone
is
relevant. They left before PoF released, ESL ended before PoF released. The state of the game changed even more drastically with that expansion. Firebrand was a healing fortress in sPvP, thats why they nerfed it, but it is still one of the strongest healers in the game. You're referencing a time period for the game that is not reflective of what the game is today. Thats like saying "Hambow Warrior was super strong back pre-HoT, thats why its still meta today" it isn't because balance has significantly changed since that time.

It is nothing like referencing a hambow and those teams being gone makes absolute zero difference. Downstate being handled better by more skilled players has not changed, that it adds an extra level of teamwork, decision making, favours those with better awareness, etc has not changed, hence it does not matter if use TCG, Orange logo, etc or some other guild that still plays, I only use TCG/Orange Logo because they are more "famous" than anyone still left in the borderline dead game modes of PvP/WvW.

Go get 5 players in some roaming guild (if there are any left) who have played for years, guess what they will handle downstate better than 5 random guys from PvE who play WvW once a week for a bit of fun, better players use downstate more effectively than worse players, nothing has changed.

You can regurgitate the line that has been fed for years now of "There really isn't any healing, there is support" when that doesn't hold true at all these days. You can literally run around with a pocket healer now in WvW, even in sPvP, in the form of Firebrand, Tempest, Scrapper or now Ventari Rev.

You can regurgitate the line about healers fullstop, but if you think say a Scrapper pocket healing someone is anywhere near the level of say a cleric in say Rift 1.6(ish) then you are badly mistaken, the "healers" in this game are simply not on the same level as traditional MMORPG healers. And of course they wear ministrel's what do you expect support who do little damage are largely frontline so vit/tough are useful and have boons as well as healing as part of their support to wear? Berserker?

For sure its possible to zerg bust still, but the effort expended by that smaller group to wipe a very clearly more inferior group...

Who cares? I mean let's be real all the talk of "skill" in WvW is BS, no one who genuinely wants skilled, competitive PVP is playing WvW in 2019. If I reinstall this game go roaming and kill two guys who have played a month and basically have no idea what they are doing, that isn't skill (sorry bads I know the truth hurts) it is just trash tier PvP.

The basis of skilled PvP is competition, which in terms of fights (because that is the simplistic level of WvW players who think they are "skilled") then that means fighting against opponents with similar experience and similar priorities. This is why people tried to do GvG, that was the only way to get something approaching skilled PvP, in a game mode that lacks the systems to provide it, bads crying because they can't "bust" zergs who cares, PvE heroes.

How would a reworked revive system around removing downed state not also add an extra level of teamwork, decision making and favor those with better awareness? It in fact doesn't...you'd have to be blind not to notice a downed ally. Also the counterplay to downed state, and keeping people from rallying, is try to stomp before they get rubbed back to life or frantically cleave to try and finish them or push the ressers away, which if they have any kind of healer that just won't happen.

It is absolutely like referencing something outdated because like I said you are referring to a period of time that holds absolutely no weight to today and how the game has changed since then. The point of making that comparison is that you are almost ignoring that the game is not the same as it was then. HoT, obviously, did not have PoF Elite Specs, HoT did not have the balance updates we have today. That is all a given. I won't accept something from the past as credible or valid in relation to the present. Things are very clearly different.

Of course more veteran players will handle downed state better than some random PvE players, that isn't the point here. You can "handle" an outdated mechanic well yet it can still be unhealthy for the landscape of PvP/WvW. People know what to do in relation to downs, those tactics have been well and firmly cemented but that still does not make the mechanic healthy for PvP with how the state of balance stands now.

As for your healer comparison, you're right...its not near that level, yet it seems as if you are yet again referencing something from the past and comparing it to something from the present. Just inferring from what you said it sounds like Cleric in Rift was super strong, possibly overtuned, in terms of healing in a past Rift update. Its all relative. Scrapper is a pocket healer in regards to healing in GW2, which sure is different in healing compared to other MMORPGs, but within the context of GW2...still a healer, still can be a pocket healer. Call it "pocket support" if you like, doesn't change how it works and how its performing in those circumstances.

As for your talk of "skill" and how it can be irrelevant and how its silly in GW2 because of balance...I do not disagree. sPvP isn't really "competitive" anymore, maybe it is a bit in mATs, but ranked is a far cry from what you would consider competitive. To get into the top rankings on the leaderboard people have literally developed ways to "cheat" the system because Ranked sPvP is such a joke now with what they've done to it over the years. Also I wouldn't be one of those people gloating over winning 1v2s or 1v3s against people who don't know what they are doing, not even 1v1s. I tend to notice what they do wrong, and they do a lot wrong, and I take advantage of those moments. I much prefer fighting players who can and will probably beat me because it shows me my mistakes and what I might need to do to improve. That is why I want them to rework revives this way, because Downed state is very forgiving to these individuals. Too forgiving.

Also don't get so heated, my man, we're just having a discussion here.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"steki.1478" said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Not really.

Downstate increases the relatively low skill cap of the combat in this game and rewards better players by adding depth through more teamwork, more decision making, more awareness, putting thought into group comps / builds, etc.

Which is why if you look at the few players who were actually good at this game (TCG, Orange Logo, etc) they handled rezzes / stomps better than even most of the other PvP teams, let alone WvW players...

Of course they can manage downs, it's structured PvP so the teams ALWAYS have even numbers. You just straight jump to sPvP in the WvW discussion of how downstate is a carry and heavy favors whoever has greater numbers.

Virtually every mechanic in the game favours more numbers.

If I reinstall this game then go roaming with some other guy and we meet an opposing group of 4, then guess what, any AOE / Group heals, cleanses, boons, reflects, auras, etc will have more effect and favour those 4 over the same things on my group of 2, same thing with body blocking, even how much more pressure will be on our stun breaks than the group of four and so on. So I guess we should just remove all group / AOE skills, because they "carry" larger groups.

Or you could learn that you don't design and balance a game on the basis of unequal teams.

I like how anytime someone asks for anything to do with downstate people jump in to removing everything in the game as if any of us ever suggested such.

To down someone we have already gone up against larger numbers, and those better heals, cleanse, boons, reflects, auras, aoe and dps, that already give them a big advantage, and they still go down, but that's not enough, they need yet another chance to beat that smaller group with downstate to be rallied or rezzed.

Downstate is NOT balance based on unequal teams, it is balance based on skill level. As removing downstate does not favor the smaller team, the smaller team is still at a disadvantage, the larger team just no longer has another mechanic that favors larger numbers and as such the skill differential starts to show.

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@KryTiKaL.3125 said:It is absolutely like referencing something outdated because like I said you are referring to a period of time that holds absolutely no weight to today and how the game has changed since then. The point of making that comparison is that you are almost ignoring that the game is not the same as it was then. HoT, obviously, did not have PoF Elite Specs, HoT did not have the balance updates we have today. That is all a given. I won't accept something from the past as credible or valid in relation to the present. Things are very clearly different.

Of course more veteran players will handle downed state better than some random PvE players, that isn't the point here.

LOL.

Have a nice night/day.

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@"Aridon.8362" I can appreciate where you're coming from.

The sad thing is it feels like I or we (as a community) have to be on ether end of 2 extremes. Being ether to keep downstate and praise the living hell out of it or completely nuke it's existence from the game (at least WvW).So I can really appreciate the approach, from you, of trying to actually find some balance in between those extremes. Because if we are being honest here... Downstate is not "balanced" as is.

People have to not only remember that "downstate" evolved with the game... But that "no downstate" has never had a fair shake to also "evolve" with the game. And I think the fact that it has made a significantly positive impact on a lot of people (even if not all)... There should be something profound and positive enough to learn from that to help better the game as is. Considering that "no downstate" never had the opportunity for any significant influence over any degree of "balance"... Like "downstate" has.So, for example, those "One-Shot" builds out there. "Downstate" whether anyone likes it or not; has had not only more, but completely more influence over their creation VS "no downstate".

The other thing here is... Downstate is not "just downstate". We have "rally" and traits/skills... Possible higher player numbers resulting in much faster res speed... Basically all these extra bells and whistles. Of which can and often do make downstate more than just itself working alone. Also, we have "healer's" now compared to the far past. Point is... There are a lot more methods or enhanced methods of preventing a players defeat in and out of downstate itself, then when the game first started. Resulting in less skilled play around downstate itself.

Anyways, I proposed this here... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/75223/can-we-have-a-no-rally-week-please#latest in an attempt to try to isolate downstate from one of these factors... "Rally". And see how that goes. Maybe it will interest you at least? Just thought I'd mention it to you :)

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:It is absolutely like referencing something
outdated
because like I said you are referring to a period of time that holds absolutely no weight to
today
and how the game has changed since then. The point of making that comparison is that you are almost ignoring that the game is not the same as it was then. HoT, obviously, did not have PoF Elite Specs, HoT did not have the balance updates we have today. That is all a given. I won't accept something from the past as credible or valid in relation to the present. Things are very clearly different.

Of course more veteran players will handle downed state better than some random PvE players, that isn't the point here.

LOL.

Have a nice night/day.

You completely ignored the rest of what I posted.

Let me shift perspective for it.

Many people complain about Soulbeast and how easy it is to just be cheesy with it and get kills, primarily with Rapid Fire on Longbow. There are for sure ways to "handle" it better than most people do, veteran players who know how to play do for sure, but that does not mean that Soulbeast and its ability to do that at all doesn't need to be tuned or reworked. Its still very unhealthy for PvP, the same as how Deadeye can perma stealth, or near perma stealth, is also unhealthy for PvP despite people being able to "handle" it better than others.

Like I said, and have said repeatedly, the way that you "handle" downstate is horribly designed in relation to what the state of the game is in present day. If you're not going to acknowledge that, especially because it seems like you've implied that you don't even play anymore...

@Sylosi.6503 said:If I reinstall this game then go roaming with some other guy

@Sylosi.6503 said:If I reinstall this game go roaming

Then I don't see how we can actually have a constructive discussion. You don't play, therefore all of your references to past things still hold no weight in the discussion especially because that seems to be all you know from personal experience. When was the last time you played, actually? Just out of curiosity.

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

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NO. RNG is the anathema of skilled gameplay.

Precision existing is already bad enough. Criticals should come from how and where we hit enemies, and from skills, traits and upgrades, not from random chances.All the randomness an action-oriented combat system needs is in the weapon themselves, which is Weapon Strength in GW2. Weapon Strength in GW2 could be more varied, like Fire, Lightning and Cold damage in the Diablo II sorceress: Mace slower more cc-oriented weapons have more minimum damage and lower higher damage like cold, have Power-based weapons like axes have a wider range of damage like lightning, and condition-based weapons an average range like fire.

At most, downed estate in WvW could be limited to just two rallies, then defeat on the third, instead three rallies like in PvE. Three strikes, out.

And even during the no-downed estate events, downed estate should still work for the first 3 seconds after entering combat, and just those 3 seconds. Also make leaving combat harder. Take longer and require more distance from enemies to kick in when in combat against players. Players should stay in combat until a locked target is too far to stay selected.

As for bursty builds, that's a more complex issue that is less about damage of individual skills, but about lack or shortness of aftercasts, activation times and spammability that allows stacking too many skills and effects in little time. The combat pace has gotten to hectic, what should be like a waltz has become like dubstep, and it's on its way to getting a rythm matching speedcore.

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@Anput.4620 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Even better, remove downstate and don't play glassbuilds, or save defensive cds to counter burst. Which one seems more skillful?

Give me extra 7k base health, mobility skills on 10 sec cd, blocks that block more than 3 attacks and remove retaliation. Let's also remove stealth and endure pain/stone signet and their traits while we're at being skillful... How do I counter something I don't see?

When it comes to zergs..why should I be punished for hitting more people? Twice actually..once with retal and another one with meteor shower diminished returns.

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@steki.1478 said:

@steki.1478 said:Proposing even better alternative:

Save cooldowns so you can cleave downeds. Problem solved.

Such a smug answer, but downstate is nothing but a crutch in smaller fights and having to waste cooldowns on downed people just means you'll lose.

Then pick better fights or better places for such fights. Enemy also has to cleave your downeds so they can lose as well.

Implying its an even numbered fight.

Implying you can cleave through revives at all times. They have a dedicated support? well, tough luck. guess I should have uninstalled the game to win.

They can play the same classes you can play. Why don't you focus or CC that support?

Asking again, why would game ever be balanced around outnumbered fights?

No one is asking for that.

They are asking for revives to be reworked because the current system with Downed State and Rally is currently unhealthy for PvP. The reason people bring up outnumbered fights is because you can see such a drastic difference in how well people do with and without downed state in those scenarios.

With downed state outnumbered fights are needlessly more difficult and doesn't at all pertain to player skill in those situations. It actually shows a lack of skill in that these players, as individuals, don't know how to survive, to avoid pressure or position themselves properly. They have a consistent and very frequent safety net in these situations and virtually no actual drawback, or investment, in bringing their ally back into the fight.

Without downed state outnumbered fights are not as difficult because the players, as individuals, cannot properly sustain, position or avoid pressure well enough go down immediately and have no safety net to consistently, and overly frequently, get them right back into the fight. If Anet reworks revives, as in makes it so that skills like Battle Standard and others (on a 5 minute CD and only ressing 1) res from full dead with a percentage of health back this would give organized groups, smaller or larger, both the ability to coordinate revives and get their teammates back into the fight while making them actually invest something into doing so. It also gives both sides much better counterplay options as they can pressure and secure kills around these revive skill cooldowns.

So a larger group that is well organized can still outplay and outmaneuver the smaller group if the two groups consist of equally experienced/skilled players. However it still gives the smaller group a chance to pull out a clutch win against the larger group.

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