Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?

Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited May 4, 2019 in PVP

Really low cd static burst aoe CC up the kitten lmao. How do you handle them if you aren't playing a class with low cd hard invulns and blocks such as spellbreaker?

They trade nothing for such a straight buff like Photon mode. It doesn't last forever, but the uptime is quite high and the duration moderately long. Each of the spells (bar the autoattack) can do from 5k to 9k damage on a crit too.

As for scrappers, I believe they're tankier than a firebrand, and they become simply impossible to take down if you use a projectile-based class.

How to deal with them as a fresh air ele? (inb4 there's your problem). After all these nerfs shouldn't the matchup be more balanced?

Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

<13

Comments

  • Curennos.9307Curennos.9307 Member ✭✭✭

    Engi has an issue where its core traitlines are good in addition to its elite spec being pretty great as well, so anet not only has a difficult time nerfing things, they have a difficult time nerifng the right thing. See - how the core traitlines are strong and supposedly give 'too much sustain', but then there's Heat Therapy plus Thermal Release Valve that pile even more healing on top of the mitigation (and some healing, depending on what they're running) core already offers. That Thermal Release Valve combines damage (By letting you stay in forge longer) with healing (via heat therapy) via straight mitigation (evading an attack) is a whole heap of icing. They really should just remove heat therapy and then see what happens with holosmith.

    Not sure about Scrapper. Their projectile thing is a pain, but that's partially an issue on the user of the projectile's side, imo - for ex DJ, which really didn't deserve to lose unblockable. Counterplay really shouldn't be an all or nothing thing. They have nice group support that just so happens to also apply to the scrapper - would rather they shift some of the strength from the scrapper to being dependant on how many allies there are, and/or having to make more choices (they have some dead traits tbh).

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭

    How do you deal with them as a FA Ele?

    Cant speak for Scrapper but for Holo, dont let them get close to you, and dont try to 1v1 them. Your build probably wont be sustainable enough to last very long in close quarters, so burst them while they're occupied with someone.

  • Exedore.6320Exedore.6320 Member ✭✭✭

    You already answered your question, OP.

    Many elite specs are an addition to the core rather than an alternative. Scrapper gives up nothing and Holosmith only gives up it's 5th toolbelt skill. They both gain a lot more power. Part of this is due to bad design of elite specs. The mechanics at balanced levels just didn't flow well or felt like they didn't have a purpose. But instead of fixing the design flaws, the developers just increased the numbers. Once the numbers are big enough, it overshadows the subpar flow of the spec.

    Alchemy being a very strong trait line also contributed. Practically every engineer build uses it. But it was balanced by the other core trait lines being fairly week.

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Euthymias.7984 said:
    dont let them get close to you

    idk dude with a 2s gap closer and 1050 range that doesn't seem like a real possibility.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • lightstalker.1498lightstalker.1498 Member ✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    Holo is strong, and many player swapped to engineer as their main class competitively because of this. Scrapper is now strong, and it also brought in a lot of new mains. Engineer has pretty strong core traits that work well with their elites. There is a certain heal skill that with he right combos make it broke, also consider the CD is pretty low considering how it is used. That have 15k base health so they can use demo for tankiness and hit hard. I have seen many montages on the forums, youtube, and clips on youtube where they fight outnumbered in all specializations. You see many high level players playing this class, but it can not be because it is strong, right? Top players always play the weakest classes. Most of the nerfs come only when it is so obviously nuts Anet has no choice but to nerf it. Possibility to get every boon in the game. Again, the best boon farting around with bonuses to protection strength. Invuln, superspeed, stealth. BIg AOE CC, damage, Frankenstein elite and toolbelt skills (mesmer, ele, warrior ripoffs). Fun to play, but not against. Support for this thread, maybe after the season, or when the next broke thing comes along. Though, if there is truth about SB 100-0 engis, then maybe that is why we see so much SB hate. Final thought is that Engi is completely fine. We need to L2P

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    @Razor.6392 said:
    idk dude with a 2s gap closer and 1050 range that doesn't seem like a real possibility.

    Kite spots? Terrain/elevation differences? I also said to not 1v1 them and attack while they're occupied with something else. You're not going to want to facetank a holosmith on something as squishy as FA either way.

    @Razor.6392 said:

    I think the problem is that the "overheat" mechanic was supposed to be a real drawback, but unless the player is braindead or falls asleep while playing, it will never, ever trigger.

    The deal with Overheat is also that the threat of such is to serve as a limiter to how long/how many skills you can use in Forge since they all generate varying amounts of heat. Vent Exhaust does lower the danger of such, though, as long as you have dodges to spare to cool down.

  • Zenix.6198Zenix.6198 Member ✭✭✭

    photon forge skills really are overtuned.
    On top of that they have pretty high quickness uptime with elixir U and kinetic battery.
    It's just another case of too high offensive boon uptime paired with spamable high dmg skills.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭

    because instead of only nerfs, which is what it should've been, they also got a bunch of buffs thanks to incomptent balance team. It the same as mesmers needed only strictly nerfs before but instead got buffs (axe/phantasm + chrono rework/scepter) to compensate for their nerfs every time.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 4, 2019

    engi core sustain being a problem lol. what a joke.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

    A friendly reminder Anet has never considered core traits off limits when it comes to nerfing over performing specs. If core traitlines have stupid results, like Engineers literally one shotting people from Elixir S with the Mine Sweeper trait the core traits should get nerfed even if the core specialization as a whole isn't being run.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    Nothing like nerfing core because you dislike an elite spec. :wink:

    A friendly reminder Anet has never considered core traits off limits when it comes to nerfing over performing specs. If core traitlines have stupid results, like Engineers literally one shotting people from Elixir S with the Mine Sweeper trait the core traits should get nerfed even if the core specialization as a whole isn't being run.

    Yes, but there's nothing particularly egregious about Healing Turret as a heal, unless your complaint is the water field? In which case, you really are all in favor of nerfing the core for no good reason.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.

    dont nerf the dmg. holo always been high risk high reward aoe dps bomb. slap that healing on it and no wonder ppl say its broken. and dont nerf core engi traits. if anything they need buffs in the right places (explosives,firearms etc) cuz right now core engi is not viable unless u wanna spend a year mastering it fully...

    i dont want holo nerfed to the ground but put more in line with the other specs thats been nerfed the last couple of patches (last patch holo got buffed... like why?? anet u high?) also remove some boons (perma vigor/swiftness) .

    this is not to say u cant beat a holo if u know what ure doing tho. deny them stability on holo 3 (kite it or block) since most holo's use elixir U offensively they most likely only have elixir S for stunbreak if u can remove stability or deny them it from holo 3,then cc and burst . they die to spike just like everyone else. and for the love of god DODGE holographic shockwave ! its so telegraphed the holo might aswell whisper u in advance "im gonna cc u now"

    also holo main since it got released

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:
    healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.

    dont nerf the dmg. holo always been high risk high reward aoe dps bomb. slap that healing on it and no wonder ppl say its broken. and dont nerf core engi traits. if anything they need buffs in the right places (explosives,firearms etc) cuz right now core engi is not viable unless u wanna spend a year mastering it fully...

    i dont want it nerfed to the ground but put more in line with the other specs thats been nerfed the last couple of patches (last patch holo got buffed... like why?? anet u drunk?) also remove some boons (perma vigor/swiftness) .

    this is not to say u cant beat a holo if u know what ure doing tho. deny them stability on holo 3 (kite it or block) since most holo's use elixir U offensively they most likely only have elixir S for stunbreak if u can remove stability or deny them it from holo 3,then cc and burst . they die to spike just like everyone else. and for the love of god DODGE holographic shockwave ! its so telegraphed the holo might aswell whisper u in advance "im gonna cc u now"

    also holo main since it got released

    If you just account for the healing, the regeneration, the over charge healing and regeneration, and the only benefit from the field being Detonate Healing Turret it adds up to 7400 on a 20 second cooldown.

    2520+390+2520+650+1,320 (blast) = 7400

    And this isn't even including how easy it is to toss a few extra leaps or blasts in there as a holosmith / engineer.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:
    healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.

    You include three other blasts under the 20 sec healing turret cooldown. That's disingenuous. Some builds can spam blasts each time you heal for sure, but the meta elixir holo only has holo leap as a spammable leap/blast finisher. If you're using jump shot, magnetic shield, shockwave etc. only when you heal, then you're a predictable/bad holo.

    Healing and sustain also aren't equivalent. How much healing is an extra evade worth? Block? Blind? Saying X heals more than Y and should be nerfed is ignorant to all other aspects of the game.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    You also argued against the Auto Elixir S nerf despite the fact that passive saves like that across the board shouldn't exist on any core or elite specialization line.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

    Do you even read others' posts? The whole point is that it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

    Do you even read others' posts? The whole point is that it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

    i read all of them, all good points. just giving my 2 cents on what i think is not in line compared to the rest of the rooster.
    couple this healing skill+heat therapy with photon forge dmg and cc potential, now give it perma vigor(vent heat more often/more heal/more time in forge for more dmg)
    lets add super speed and disengage 6 sec stealth + insane amount of boons that are up all the time. give it some range and tankyness too and no wonder ppl feel like its overperforming.

    all i want is healing turned down a bit and shave some boon durations or entirely from skills spamming them (vigor). increase holo 2 cd a bit and maybe increase some dmg to compensate, or dont. depends on how hard healing is hit. but atm imo its too much of everything

  • melandru.3876melandru.3876 Member ✭✭✭

    remove the waterfield from heal turret (or heal turret toolbelt skill
    or
    remove the condi cleanses from heal turret
    or
    increase cooldown on holo leap
    or
    nerf vigor on core engi.. vent exaust + heat therapy is 975 healing per dodge roll (if there is enough heat, which there alwlays is)

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

    Do you even read others' posts? The whole point is that it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

    i read all of them, all good points. just giving my 2 cents on what i think is not in line compared to the rest of the rooster.
    couple this healing skill+heat therapy with photon forge dmg and cc potential, now give it perma vigor(vent heat more often/more heal/more time in forge for more dmg)
    lets add super speed and disengage 6 sec stealth + insane amount of boons that are up all the time. give it some range and tankyness too and no wonder ppl feel like its overperforming.

    all i want is healing turned down a bit and shave some boon durations or entirely from skills spamming them (vigor). increase holo 2 cd a bit and maybe increase some dmg to compensate, or dont. depends on how hard healing is hit. but atm imo its too much of everything

    So you read them, thought they were good points, then ignored them and kept repeating your original point? That's not how reasonable people think.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    yes heal turret is strong, no it shouldn't be nerfed since photon forge is still a little too much.

    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

    Do you even read others' posts? The whole point is that it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

    i read all of them, all good points. just giving my 2 cents on what i think is not in line compared to the rest of the rooster.
    couple this healing skill+heat therapy with photon forge dmg and cc potential, now give it perma vigor(vent heat more often/more heal/more time in forge for more dmg)
    lets add super speed and disengage 6 sec stealth + insane amount of boons that are up all the time. give it some range and tankyness too and no wonder ppl feel like its overperforming.

    all i want is healing turned down a bit and shave some boon durations or entirely from skills spamming them (vigor). increase holo 2 cd a bit and maybe increase some dmg to compensate, or dont. depends on how hard healing is hit. but atm imo its too much of everything

    So you read them, thought they were good points, then ignored them and kept repeating your original point? That's not how reasonable people think.

    dud instead of attacking me personally , i would much better like to talk about the spec we are all here to discuss. if u got some problems with my original point i would love to argue them. otherwise im not interested

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    So you read them, thought they were good points, then ignored them and kept repeating your original point? That's not how reasonable people think.

    dud instead of attacking me personally , i would much better like to talk about the spec we are all here to discuss. if u got some problems with my original point i would love to discuss them. otherwise im not interested

    People disagreeing with you isn't an attack. Grow up.

    Problems with your original point? Let me just quote myself citing problems with your original point then.

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.

    You include three other blasts under the 20 sec healing turret cooldown. That's disingenuous. Some builds can spam blasts each time you heal for sure, but the meta elixir holo only has holo leap as a spammable leap/blast finisher. If you're using jump shot, magnetic shield, shockwave etc. only when you heal, then you're a predictable/bad holo.

    Healing and sustain also aren't equivalent. How much healing is an extra evade worth? Block? Blind? Saying X heals more than Y and should be nerfed is ignorant to all other aspects of the game.

    And then let me re-emphasize:

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    Do you even read others' posts?

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    So you read them, thought they were good points, then ignored them and kept repeating your original point? That's not how reasonable people think.

    dud instead of attacking me personally , i would much better like to talk about the spec we are all here to discuss. if u got some problems with my original point i would love to discuss them. otherwise im not interested

    People disagreeing with you isn't an attack. Grow up.

    Problems with your original point? Let me just quote myself citing problems with your original point then.

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    healing turret + blast and 2 combo's in water field is 10k healing on a 20 sec cd. add toolbelt water field + leap for another 1500 + 1000 regen. so 12k+ healing from 1 healing skill. could sure as hell use some nerfs. heat therapy too. holo has so much sustain im never rly fearing about death cuz i know my healing skill is up soon to put me back at 100%.

    You include three other blasts under the 20 sec healing turret cooldown. That's disingenuous. Some builds can spam blasts each time you heal for sure, but the meta elixir holo only has holo leap as a spammable leap/blast finisher. If you're using jump shot, magnetic shield, shockwave etc. only when you heal, then you're a predictable/bad holo.

    Healing and sustain also aren't equivalent. How much healing is an extra evade worth? Block? Blind? Saying X heals more than Y and should be nerfed is ignorant to all other aspects of the game.

    And then let me re-emphasize:

    @bethekey.8314 said:
    Do you even read others' posts? The whole point is that it's more complicated than you're making it out to be.

    id refer u to the answer i gave to said post. i even included pictures to show what i mean and explained how i got the 12k healing using a combo every holo knows and can use since i could have went either rifle 5 or holo 5 for this heal combo. will u be able to pull this combo off every time? no. but ive played long enough to know this combo is availible alot of times.
    when i talk sustain i also account for invul . block. CC. stealth. kite ability. disengage potential/mobility and also heal. holo got all this in relatively low cd (30s) . the problem imo is the insane heal u have slapped on to all this other good stuff.
    i dont mind ppl disagreeing with me. but ur last comment wasnt u disagreeing with my original point on why i think its broken...

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:
    id refer u to the answer i gave to said post. i even included pictures to show what i mean and explained how i got the 12k healing using a combo every holo knows and can use since i could have went either rifle 5 or holo 5 for this heal combo. will u be able to pull this combo off every time? no. but ive played long enough to know this combo is availible alot of times.
    when i talk sustain i also account for invul . block. CC. stealth. kite ability. disengage potential/mobility and also heal. holo got all this in relatively low cd (30s) . the problem imo is the insane heal u have slapped on to all this other good stuff.
    i dont mind ppl disagreeing with me. but ur last comment wasnt u disagreeing with my original point on why i think its broken...

    Your answer was literally a repeat of your original point with two pictures of an ideal situation (i.e. not a real fight, all cooldowns up, cooldowns solely used for maximal healing). It didn't address any of my points.

    Please spell out how you've accounted for invulns, blocks, ccs etc. with clear examples relative to other classes in realistic situations. I'd love to see it.

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    id refer u to the answer i gave to said post. i even included pictures to show what i mean and explained how i got the 12k healing using a combo every holo knows and can use since i could have went either rifle 5 or holo 5 for this heal combo. will u be able to pull this combo off every time? no. but ive played long enough to know this combo is availible alot of times.
    when i talk sustain i also account for invul . block. CC. stealth. kite ability. disengage potential/mobility and also heal. holo got all this in relatively low cd (30s) . the problem imo is the insane heal u have slapped on to all this other good stuff.
    i dont mind ppl disagreeing with me. but ur last comment wasnt u disagreeing with my original point on why i think its broken...

    Your answer was literally a repeat of your original point with two pictures of an ideal situation (i.e. not a real fight, all cooldowns up, cooldowns solely used for maximal healing). It didn't address any of my points.

    Please spell out how you've accounted for invulns, blocks, ccs etc. with clear examples relative to other classes in realistic situations. I'd love to see it.

    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    // Yanim

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    id refer u to the answer i gave to said post. i even included pictures to show what i mean and explained how i got the 12k healing using a combo every holo knows and can use since i could have went either rifle 5 or holo 5 for this heal combo. will u be able to pull this combo off every time? no. but ive played long enough to know this combo is availible alot of times.
    when i talk sustain i also account for invul . block. CC. stealth. kite ability. disengage potential/mobility and also heal. holo got all this in relatively low cd (30s) . the problem imo is the insane heal u have slapped on to all this other good stuff.
    i dont mind ppl disagreeing with me. but ur last comment wasnt u disagreeing with my original point on why i think its broken...

    Your answer was literally a repeat of your original point with two pictures of an ideal situation (i.e. not a real fight, all cooldowns up, cooldowns solely used for maximal healing). It didn't address any of my points.

    Please spell out how you've accounted for invulns, blocks, ccs etc. with clear examples relative to other classes in realistic situations. I'd love to see it.

    -deleted-

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

    @toxic.3648 said:
    an ideal situation that presents it self quite frequently in duels i might add. all u need is 1 more finisher off cd mid duel to pull this off. and u got 2 of them 18s/15s cd's . and holo leap is always availible for a combo finisher due to the low 2s cd. if u play right,kite or use one of the utilities to sustain urself (kinda like stealth up when u see rampage or use elixir s) its no problem getting a 2nd finisher off cd to use with heal. ofc u wont do this if both are 10+s and u need to heal now. then u pop ht with holo 2 leap for 1500 less heal.

    i can draw comparison to core guard since i play that alot too atm.
    it got alot of heal and block + blind. kitten of dmg and ports + invul. yet all u need to do as holo is to kite their burst since they lack reliable hard cc and mobility to follow up. after RF is used and u are just managing on ur cd's u will see the holo healing back up to 80% since all their healing is on 1 healing skill instead of all ur healing which is on utilities + healing skill. sure u can try and reengage but i promise u that if the holo as sustained this far into the match it can most likely keep going unless u can get lucky with a dps spike.

    same with rev. survive the burst and wait for them to switch from shiro. then relax while they get kitten healing and u got 100% in the meantime (ive literally done this)
    and im terrible at fighting revs too.

    or the new beserkers. dodge,block(if possible),invul,kite the arc devider and u will have np with them since they lack sustain to keep up. spellbreakers tho are another story, tough fight for holo. hard to compete with such a duelist build when we are kinda good at everything but not truly great at something.

    just to be clear i want all specs brought down in line. we still have some that are out of line in terms of dmg and sustainability other than holo.

    You misinterpreted my request for ability comparisons as a request for duel advice. These two are very different.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    You also argued against the Auto Elixir S nerf despite the fact that passive saves like that across the board shouldn't exist on any core or elite specialization line.

    what? when did I do that lol?

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yea lets nerf the dps on a class that was designed to dps instead of focusing on the most op healing skill ingame

    have you even looked at the auto attack on the wiki? or #2 leap? they're ludicrous, and couple that with easy quickness+fury uptime... i'm not saying damage should be gutted. nerfing damage before sustain seems like a safer choice since this is conquest and not deathmatch, the point is to be able to hold out for as long as possible. if you nerf sustain, it will force ppl to choose other options, and bunker up even more. i'm not against heal turret shave, but I get a kneejerk reaction whenever I hear "nerf core to get at espec". maybe remove all the regen, since none of the other turrets provide baseline boons.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Quadox.7834 said:
    Here is the thing to both of you; balance discussions in a complex game such as guild wars 2 are always and neccessarily subjective. You cannot objectively prove how something should be balanced and making complex analsyses of sustain capabilities based on healing per second, evave, block and all these other infinite variables, then comparing these to other professions in an equally infinite number of possible realistic scenarios is largely going to be a waste of time.

    It might sound stupid to say it like this, but the truth is that we must base our suggestions on feelings and opinions. Nobody proved objectively that Mirage was overpowered, yet there seemed to be consensus on it.

    Exactly. Claiming you've taken into account all situations is a blatant lie. I'm arguing that completely ignoring the complexity and giving only ideal situations is bad for balance.

    If we require objevtive standards for balance changed then what happens is that nothing changes. Some players are also very quick to desire analysis and proof when there is talk of nerfing their own class yet don't care for it particularly when another is on the chopping block.

    I wouldn't say striving for objectivity leads to no changes. And people defending their class against misinformation is expected. Asking for basic evidence of thoughtful analysis is fair in my opinion. Requiring comprehensive analysis isn't.

    @toxic.3648 said:
    an ideal situation that presents it self quite frequently in duels i might add. all u need is 1 more finisher off cd mid duel to pull this off. and u got 2 of them 18s/15s cd's . and holo leap is always availible for a combo finisher due to the low 2s cd. if u play right,kite or use one of the utilities to sustain urself (kinda like stealth up when u see rampage or use elixir s) its no problem getting a 2nd finisher off cd to use with heal. ofc u wont do this if both are 10+s and u need to heal now. then u pop ht with holo 2 leap for 1500 less heal.

    i can draw comparison to core guard since i play that alot too atm.
    it got alot of heal and block + blind. kitten of dmg and ports + invul. yet all u need to do as holo is to kite their burst since they lack reliable hard cc and mobility to follow up. after RF is used and u are just managing on ur cd's u will see the holo healing back up to 80% since all their healing is on 1 healing skill instead of all ur healing which is on utilities + healing skill. sure u can try and reengage but i promise u that if the holo as sustained this far into the match it can most likely keep going unless u can get lucky with a dps spike.

    same with rev. survive the burst and wait for them to switch from shiro. then relax while they get kitten healing and u got 100% in the meantime (ive literally done this)
    and im terrible at fighting revs too.

    or the new beserkers. dodge,block(if possible),invul,kite the arc devider and u will have np with them since they lack sustain to keep up. spellbreakers tho are another story, tough fight for holo. hard to compete with such a duelist build when we are kinda good at everything but not truly great at something.

    just to be clear i want all specs brought down in line. we still have some that are out of line in terms of dmg and sustainability other than holo.

    You misinterpreted my request for ability comparisons as a request for duel advice. These two are very different.

    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 12k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

  • Razor.6392Razor.6392 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

    I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

    It's like saying 2013 d/d elementalist was balanced because:

    • It doesn't do that much damage.
    • Chilled affects attunement cooldowns.
    • It's hard to keep track of weapon switch sigil effects since you keep swapping between attunements.
    • Not dodging in a teamfight usually means death for the elementalist.

    You're probably new here, which is fine. We all start somewhere.

    Never said I'm the best, but I believe I'm better than you.

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:
    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.

    And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

  • toxic.3648toxic.3648 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2019

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @toxic.3648 said:
    well im sry i cant give u that. all i can say is that imo after playing holo for so long it feels that the sheer healing from holo is what breaks it, be it from heat therapy+perma vigor synergy or healing turret. in terms of dmg it can dish out alot but ive also seen way worse from other builds atm. this is my opinion. i dont feel like i have to provide detailed comprehensive analysis across all meta specs to say healing for 15k+ every 20 sec interval is a wee bit too much when u look at all the other stuff holo can do atm

    no idea why i tried it the first place either tbh xD way too tired for this

    Well, you gave up before doing it even once, which makes me doubt you ever took anything but your feelings into account. You aren't obliged to do analysis of course, but I think it might help support any arguments you make.

    And as I said before, healing for 15k every 20 seconds requires timing all your blast finishers with your heal. This is unrealistic, bad, and predictable.

    yet easely doable in fights with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @Razor.6392 said:

    @bethekey.8314 said:

    @Razor.6392 said:
    Ahhhh vagrant 1 year later still defending his broken spec lol. Some things never change!

    You sound like a child. He spent a lot of time addressing your hyperbolic points and this is all you have to say after?

    I mean, read his explanation on holo's "downsides". That is not a post to be taken seriously. Also I've dealt with him in the past... even on release holo, he would still defend it and say it was balanced lol.

    It's like saying 2013 d/d elementalist was balanced because:

    • It doesn't do that much damage.
    • Chilled affects attunement cooldowns.
    • It's hard to keep track of weapon switch sigil effects since you keep swapping between attunements.
    • Not dodging in a teamfight usually means death for the elementalist.

    His posts read much better than yours and directly address arguments made by you and others. You avoid them.

    You're probably new here, which is fine. We all start somewhere.

    What are you even talking about?

  • bethekey.8314bethekey.8314 Member ✭✭✭

    @toxic.3648 said:
    yet easely doable with ht+1 leap , toolbelt +1 leap and rest is comming from compunding chemicals and heat therapy 6.5k heal from going 99 heat to 0 once

    Do you have the ability to record and post duels of yourself against plat 2+ players? I'd love to see it.

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