Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong? - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why is it that despite all the nerfs, engis are still so immeasurably strong?

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  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    This still just ignores so much about the game, gameplay and combat. I've gotten into this argument with you before about why your comparisons aren't correct, and I see you've backed off on some of that.
    But here are some additions and corrections:

    • Whirlwind is interruptable, and if you run into any interrupting field without stability, it is stopped and you are interrupted.

    Okay fair. Mirage Cloak and blur are also interruptable by things like an interrupting field and static aura. This is irrelevant in this comparison except for distortion.

    • Depending on Warrior build/opponent, rush can be completely countered by condis.

    I don't see how rush in particular is countered by conditions. Chilled, and crippled do not counter the movement bonus. Movement skills always travel the same distance regardless of swiftness or movement impairing conditions.

    Rampage prevents you from accessing your condition cleanses, but that's a minor concern when you're speeding away from your opponent unless you literally rush into a fight against a condition class and are unwilling to leave rampage to access your utilities like Shake it Off or Signet of Stamina.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility completely ignores the fact that the warrior needs to be IN YOUR FACE to deal any damage (outside of berserker). Mesmer is ranged a ton of the time.

    This ignores the fact that mesmer literally can't melee any build for more than a few seconds and survive. It's a give and take. Yes warrior needs to be on the upper end of mobility to do damage and stick to targets. But there is also the omnipresent pressure of node ownership that forces most 1v1 specs to play a dangerous game of trying to mostly kite a warrior around a usually 260 unit radius circle.

    And here is the thing, back before the physical update and rampage giving warriors access to 10k crits, most warriors used to run Discipline+Defense+Spellbreaker. And for utilities it would be Endure Pain+Featherfoot Grace or Berserker Stance+Balance Stance. Even with only those traitlines and utilities Spellbreakers were one of the only builds that could consistently threaten a condition mirage off a node and result in a perpetual stallout without just being practically immune to condition damage the way scrapper is.

    Now a lot of other stuff has happened. Notably Full Counter's damage getting gutted (Which I personally very much disagree with and advocate a massive unnerfing situation), but good spellbreakers were very much still able to stick to targets and perpetually stall out nodes against condition mirages and this is condition mirage at it's absolute height and the tools that let spellbreaker stall out that match up haven't been even slightly nerfed but have since been buffed since then.

    And despite not running rampage, despite not running bull's charge, despite always running dagger over sword, they were still not only viable with only that level of movement speed, but absolutely top tier. What changed was Peak Performance granting a 10% damage modifier.

    It wasn't defense warrior getting nerfed because the nerfs towards Defy Pain and Rousing Resilience were milquetoast, but the introduction of peak performance, which made Bull's Charge a no brainer in addition to halving the cooldown of rampage that made strength spellbreaker a master of damage, offense, and mobility.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility needs to factor in stealth to the equation, which warrior has zero access to. Mesmer can run in one direction, stealth up, blink in the opposite direction, or just play with your brain. This trumps any warrior movement.

    2 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight or 2+3 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight plus The Prestige do not counter the escape potential of 2000+ more units of movement for warrior.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility HAS to factor in porting to places that make it impossible for a warrior to follow or access easily.

    Agreed. But how much is the 2 second jumping puzzle on keep worth that the mesmer blinked up? Two seconds. How much is the wall that lets you jump up to the second layer of henge really worth especially since the jumping puzzle itself gives you cover?

    In absolutely pure open terrain where contesting nodes is never an omnipresent factor a lot of things will beat warrior.

    Freaking Fresh Air Weaver will beat warrior practically every time.

    But that's not the game mode we're in and not what the win condition is based around.

    As you can see, they're literally not worth comparing.

    I a 1v1 build's ability to disengage, resustain, and then reengage before the enemy can cap the node is ALWAYS worth comparing.

    You've built up this comparison for reasons akin to "people saw Mes was powerful and it got nerfed a bit. Now everything else should suffer." But it's not a fair or accurate comparison.

    I think of myself as more of a Dr. Doom type of figure than a Tetsuo type.

    I'm not as good at forum-ing as I am at 1vXing, so I apologize that I'm not going back into your reply, but a few points of clarity/opinion:

    • Rush (GS5) is countered by Immob condition if not running warrior's sprint. It's another one that is easy to interrupt in general with area denial skills or in general interrupts.
    • I'm not gonna dig into rampage right now. It's a strong elite. I think it needs a 15% dmg nerf, but no cooldown nerf for warriors. Start small, then go big.
    • IMO: Stealth does counter immense movement ability. Wait until somebody has used movement skills, or bait some out of them, then use your stealth and you're gone. That's how shifty players play, and that's why mesmers will always be dangerous.
    • IMO: Yes, the ability to blink up a jumping puzzle and pressure while your enemy stumbles up the same puzzle is incredibly beneficial and powerful and is worth a lot more than a point to point rush.
    • IMO: It's not fair to compare the mobility of mirage and warrior, as they're extremely different in playstyle with massively different as positive and negative attributes
    • Fair points about 1v1 abilities in different settings.
    • Fair point about being Dr. Doom.
  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    This still just ignores so much about the game, gameplay and combat. I've gotten into this argument with you before about why your comparisons aren't correct, and I see you've backed off on some of that.
    But here are some additions and corrections:

    • Whirlwind is interruptable, and if you run into any interrupting field without stability, it is stopped and you are interrupted.

    Okay fair. Mirage Cloak and blur are also interruptable by things like an interrupting field and static aura. This is irrelevant in this comparison except for distortion.

    • Depending on Warrior build/opponent, rush can be completely countered by condis.

    I don't see how rush in particular is countered by conditions. Chilled, and crippled do not counter the movement bonus. Movement skills always travel the same distance regardless of swiftness or movement impairing conditions.

    Rampage prevents you from accessing your condition cleanses, but that's a minor concern when you're speeding away from your opponent unless you literally rush into a fight against a condition class and are unwilling to leave rampage to access your utilities like Shake it Off or Signet of Stamina.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility completely ignores the fact that the warrior needs to be IN YOUR FACE to deal any damage (outside of berserker). Mesmer is ranged a ton of the time.

    This ignores the fact that mesmer literally can't melee any build for more than a few seconds and survive. It's a give and take. Yes warrior needs to be on the upper end of mobility to do damage and stick to targets. But there is also the omnipresent pressure of node ownership that forces most 1v1 specs to play a dangerous game of trying to mostly kite a warrior around a usually 260 unit radius circle.

    And here is the thing, back before the physical update and rampage giving warriors access to 10k crits, most warriors used to run Discipline+Defense+Spellbreaker. And for utilities it would be Endure Pain+Featherfoot Grace or Berserker Stance+Balance Stance. Even with only those traitlines and utilities Spellbreakers were one of the only builds that could consistently threaten a condition mirage off a node and result in a perpetual stallout without just being practically immune to condition damage the way scrapper is.

    Now a lot of other stuff has happened. Notably Full Counter's damage getting gutted (Which I personally very much disagree with and advocate a massive unnerfing situation), but good spellbreakers were very much still able to stick to targets and perpetually stall out nodes against condition mirages and this is condition mirage at it's absolute height and the tools that let spellbreaker stall out that match up haven't been even slightly nerfed but have since been buffed since then.

    And despite not running rampage, despite not running bull's charge, despite always running dagger over sword, they were still not only viable with only that level of movement speed, but absolutely top tier. What changed was Peak Performance granting a 10% damage modifier.

    It wasn't defense warrior getting nerfed because the nerfs towards Defy Pain and Rousing Resilience were milquetoast, but the introduction of peak performance, which made Bull's Charge a no brainer in addition to halving the cooldown of rampage that made strength spellbreaker a master of damage, offense, and mobility.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility needs to factor in stealth to the equation, which warrior has zero access to. Mesmer can run in one direction, stealth up, blink in the opposite direction, or just play with your brain. This trumps any warrior movement.

    2 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight or 2+3 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight plus The Prestige do not counter the escape potential of 2000+ more units of movement for warrior.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility HAS to factor in porting to places that make it impossible for a warrior to follow or access easily.

    Agreed. But how much is the 2 second jumping puzzle on keep worth that the mesmer blinked up? Two seconds. How much is the wall that lets you jump up to the second layer of henge really worth especially since the jumping puzzle itself gives you cover?

    In absolutely pure open terrain where contesting nodes is never an omnipresent factor a lot of things will beat warrior.

    Freaking Fresh Air Weaver will beat warrior practically every time.

    But that's not the game mode we're in and not what the win condition is based around.

    As you can see, they're literally not worth comparing.

    I a 1v1 build's ability to disengage, resustain, and then reengage before the enemy can cap the node is ALWAYS worth comparing.

    You've built up this comparison for reasons akin to "people saw Mes was powerful and it got nerfed a bit. Now everything else should suffer." But it's not a fair or accurate comparison.

    I think of myself as more of a Dr. Doom type of figure than a Tetsuo type.

    I'm not as good at forum-ing as I am at 1vXing, so I apologize that I'm not going back into your reply, but a few points of clarity/opinion:

    • Rush (GS5) is countered by Immob condition if not running warrior's sprint. It's another one that is easy to interrupt in general with area denial skills or in general interrupts.

    Just to ask this.
    What meta warrior build or viable war build doesnt run warrior sprint. It is such a good trait that is especially important in this meta.

    • I'm not gonna dig into rampage right now. It's a strong elite. I think it needs a 15% dmg nerf, but no cooldown nerf for warriors. Start small, then go big.

    Or why not do both and fix it later?

    • IMO: Stealth does counter immense movement ability. Wait until somebody has used movement skills, or bait some out of them, then use your stealth and you're gone. That's how shifty players play, and that's why mesmers will always be dangerous.

    That scenario happens very little, as was pointed out. This is a capture the node game mode.
    What's also neat is that you can't compare war and mes defenses without putting everything up.
    Like warriors ability to stop direct damage or condi damage. Thus nullifying damage as they make their way to the target under swiftness and saving the majority of their movement skills.
    Like both of those situations are unrealistic.

    • IMO: It's not fair to compare the mobility of mirage and warrior, as they're extremely different in playstyle with massively different as positive and negative attributes

    Why? We compared damage and utility before?
    Mobility skill to mobility skill can also be compared IMO

    • Fair point about being Dr. Doom.

    ....he's more like a Green Goblin. 😝

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 9, 2019

    @Solori.6025 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Mbelch.9028 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    I'd argue there's a case for differentiating ports and leaps (and even super speed up time) when discussing mobility.

    Completely. In-combat mobility quality is all about the fast movement skills with no travel time, and allow you to chain damage uninterrupted as you travel, jaunt, blink, steal.

    In-combat mobility.

    @mortrialus.3062 You'll see right before your post equate in-combat mobility to overall mobility, including no z-axis 2s cast time dashes like Rush, rocket boots, savage leap in the discussion to say Thief and Mesmer don't have disproportionate in-combat mobility. They do have more disproportionate in-combat mobility, it's not even overly problematic, no need to be in denial. It's asymmetrical design.

    Not quite. Also comparing the standard blink and jaunt standard meta to Holos and Spellbreakers running full mobility Rocket Boots and Sword off-meta for his comparison purposes. :joy:

    Tramadex Spellbreaker is barely off meta. And if that's off meta, the level of twisting to get a mesmer to compete with it, a common variant of spellbreaker you will see is, far more ridiculous and comparatively unviable.

    I actually did take cast times and evades into account when comparing the two.

    For example Mirage thrust takes 1s to complete when you include the .25s window it takes to be able to activate the skill once you activate mirage cloak and has 1 second cooldown between uses that begins when the first leap finishes. This means it takes 4s to do three mirage thrusts and 2.5 seconds will be covered by mirage cloak and distortion.

    Jaunt moves instantly but there is a 1s internal cooldown between uses so it takes 1s to travel 900 units.

    Blink is an instant 1200 units.

    3,900 units over 5 seconds. 2.5 are covered in evade or invulnerable. 1s cooldown between jaunts. And blink is an instant 1200 units. This means about 2.5 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    And if we're only talking meta, Mirage ends there (Zeromis's build). And if we're talking condition mesmer the mobility is significantly less than that as they won't be running sword. For condition mirage it'll be 2700 in somewhere under 2 seconds. That's a fast unstoppable amount of movement in 2 seconds but once they do that their only movement for a while is phase retreat every 8 seconds. They'll have spent everything.

    Flipping into rampage has a 1s activation time. Dash has a 0.75s activation time, Seismic Leap has a 0.75 activation time. Which means it takes a warrior 2.5s to travel 1600 units with Rampage if they use it for mobility, like disengaging from a fight. They are covered by pulsing stab while in rampage so evade frames and getting interrupted are less important.

    Bull's Charge has a 1s activation time to travel 900 units and is covered by evade.

    Whirwind Blade is 450 units over 1 second and is covered by evade.

    Rush is 1200 units over 2 seconds and this is the only part not covered by evade or stability.

    4150 units over 6.5 seconds. 3 seconds are spent vulnerable.

    Thats only counting Greatsword and nothing else. So yeah, Power GS Mirage and Spellbreaker are similar in speed. Spellbreaker is significantly faster than condition mirage and other commonly used variants of mesmer that aren't using the mirage sword ambush.

    A mesmer can get out of a few situations more easily than warrior can with Z Axis teleporting. There's no doubt about that. But nothing than is going to 1v1 a meta Spellbreaker is going to be able to prevent the spellbreaker from disengaging and resetting the fight before the kill can be secured unless the spellbreaker misplays and grossly over commit to the fight and no amount of Z axis teleporting will change that.

    This still just ignores so much about the game, gameplay and combat. I've gotten into this argument with you before about why your comparisons aren't correct, and I see you've backed off on some of that.
    But here are some additions and corrections:

    • Whirlwind is interruptable, and if you run into any interrupting field without stability, it is stopped and you are interrupted.

    Okay fair. Mirage Cloak and blur are also interruptable by things like an interrupting field and static aura. This is irrelevant in this comparison except for distortion.

    • Depending on Warrior build/opponent, rush can be completely countered by condis.

    I don't see how rush in particular is countered by conditions. Chilled, and crippled do not counter the movement bonus. Movement skills always travel the same distance regardless of swiftness or movement impairing conditions.

    Rampage prevents you from accessing your condition cleanses, but that's a minor concern when you're speeding away from your opponent unless you literally rush into a fight against a condition class and are unwilling to leave rampage to access your utilities like Shake it Off or Signet of Stamina.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility completely ignores the fact that the warrior needs to be IN YOUR FACE to deal any damage (outside of berserker). Mesmer is ranged a ton of the time.

    This ignores the fact that mesmer literally can't melee any build for more than a few seconds and survive. It's a give and take. Yes warrior needs to be on the upper end of mobility to do damage and stick to targets. But there is also the omnipresent pressure of node ownership that forces most 1v1 specs to play a dangerous game of trying to mostly kite a warrior around a usually 260 unit radius circle.

    And here is the thing, back before the physical update and rampage giving warriors access to 10k crits, most warriors used to run Discipline+Defense+Spellbreaker. And for utilities it would be Endure Pain+Featherfoot Grace or Berserker Stance+Balance Stance. Even with only those traitlines and utilities Spellbreakers were one of the only builds that could consistently threaten a condition mirage off a node and result in a perpetual stallout without just being practically immune to condition damage the way scrapper is.

    Now a lot of other stuff has happened. Notably Full Counter's damage getting gutted (Which I personally very much disagree with and advocate a massive unnerfing situation), but good spellbreakers were very much still able to stick to targets and perpetually stall out nodes against condition mirages and this is condition mirage at it's absolute height and the tools that let spellbreaker stall out that match up haven't been even slightly nerfed but have since been buffed since then.

    And despite not running rampage, despite not running bull's charge, despite always running dagger over sword, they were still not only viable with only that level of movement speed, but absolutely top tier. What changed was Peak Performance granting a 10% damage modifier.

    It wasn't defense warrior getting nerfed because the nerfs towards Defy Pain and Rousing Resilience were milquetoast, but the introduction of peak performance, which made Bull's Charge a no brainer in addition to halving the cooldown of rampage that made strength spellbreaker a master of damage, offense, and mobility.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility needs to factor in stealth to the equation, which warrior has zero access to. Mesmer can run in one direction, stealth up, blink in the opposite direction, or just play with your brain. This trumps any warrior movement.

    2 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight or 2+3 seconds of stealth from Signet of Midnight plus The Prestige do not counter the escape potential of 2000+ more units of movement for warrior.

    • Warrior mobility vs Mesmer mobility HAS to factor in porting to places that make it impossible for a warrior to follow or access easily.

    Agreed. But how much is the 2 second jumping puzzle on keep worth that the mesmer blinked up? Two seconds. How much is the wall that lets you jump up to the second layer of henge really worth especially since the jumping puzzle itself gives you cover?

    In absolutely pure open terrain where contesting nodes is never an omnipresent factor a lot of things will beat warrior.

    Freaking Fresh Air Weaver will beat warrior practically every time.

    But that's not the game mode we're in and not what the win condition is based around.

    As you can see, they're literally not worth comparing.

    I a 1v1 build's ability to disengage, resustain, and then reengage before the enemy can cap the node is ALWAYS worth comparing.

    You've built up this comparison for reasons akin to "people saw Mes was powerful and it got nerfed a bit. Now everything else should suffer." But it's not a fair or accurate comparison.

    I think of myself as more of a Dr. Doom type of figure than a Tetsuo type.

    I'm not as good at forum-ing as I am at 1vXing, so I apologize that I'm not going back into your reply, but a few points of clarity/opinion:

    • Rush (GS5) is countered by Immob condition if not running warrior's sprint. It's another one that is easy to interrupt in general with area denial skills or in general interrupts.

    Just to ask this.
    What meta warrior build or viable war build doesnt run warrior sprint. It is such a good trait that is especially important in this meta.

    • I'm not gonna dig into rampage right now. It's a strong elite. I think it needs a 15% dmg nerf, but no cooldown nerf for warriors. Start small, then go big.

    Or why not do both and fix it later?

    • IMO: Stealth does counter immense movement ability. Wait until somebody has used movement skills, or bait some out of them, then use your stealth and you're gone. That's how shifty players play, and that's why mesmers will always be dangerous.

    That scenario happens very little, as was pointed out. This is a capture the node game mode.
    What's also neat is that you can't compare war and mes defenses without putting everything up.
    Like warriors ability to stop direct damage or condi damage. Thus nullifying damage as they make their way to the target under swiftness and saving the majority of their movement skills.
    Like both of those situations are unrealistic.

    • IMO: It's not fair to compare the mobility of mirage and warrior, as they're extremely different in playstyle with massively different as positive and negative attributes

    Why? We compared damage and utility before?
    Mobility skill to mobility skill can also be compared IMO

    • Fair point about being Dr. Doom.

    ....he's more like a Green Goblin. 😝

    Going to answer your questions as best I can.

    • Strength, Defense, Spellbreaker. That build is pretty effective in the right hands.
    • Why not do both of what? I think Rampage needs a 15% dmg nerf, nothing more at this point. If that's not still enough, re-address it. You can't honestly tell me you like giant nerfs that nerf things out of viability. Even with the large mirage nerfs, Condi + power still have viable builds.
    • It's a capture game mode, but elite players know it's a "never die" game mode. Dying is the worst possible thing. Which means those that can escape outnumbered/sure-death situations will be better than those who can't. It's not uncommon or unrealistic to say those classes with stealth are much more shifty than those without it.
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