UNTRAITED SWIPE: Where's the Beef? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

UNTRAITED SWIPE: Where's the Beef?

Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
edited May 9, 2019 in Thief

Long-time absent Thief here... occasionally checking up on patches just to see how much Anet nerfs Thieves, yet always with a slight hope that they will unexpectedly reverse course.

Let me get this straight... Anet literally halved the distance of a Daredevil's Steal and made it unblockable with absolutely no other changes. Am I correct? And they claimed to do so in order to make it more of a brawler?

My goodness, Anet logic at work here. How does this make the Daredevil more of a brawler? Let's see...

  1. Steal is an aggressive skill by nature, literally moving the Thief on top of the target. By halving the range, it literally keeps the Thief at distance for longer. It seems to accomplish the exact opposite of increasing its brawler ability. Steal ALWAYS move the Thief TO the target, it is not an escape, so it will not allow the Thief to create range itself. Why not halve the range of Shadowstep instead? Why not halve all of Daredevil's ports at that? Why not remove Swiftness from Unhindered Combatant as well? Yes, let's just keep the fragile Thief inside a kill zone.
  2. Steal always teleports regardless of enemy activity. Sure, you don't get the goodies if you don't "hit," but you do always get close to the target and in range for melee. So the unblockable feature doesn't create a better brawler as far as getting into melee goes.
  3. Swipe is unblockable! Yay! Um, what exactly was being blocked before? All a Steal "hit" does is "steal" some kind of item from your target. When an opponent blocked your Steal, he didn't need a big shield or magic forcefield... all he did was put his hands over his pockets. So now, Swipe makes sure those pockets are always unobstructed...
  4. ...except for when, you know, the opponent actually dodges or evades. Yeah, unblockable doesn't do much good there. Shouldn't centrifugal force or gravity cause the items to fly/fall out of the opponent's pockets in those situations anyway?
  5. But Steal can do damage to the opponent if traited with Mug! Steal can daze an opponent if traited with Sleight of Hand! It poisons and confuses with Serpent's Touch and Bewildering Ambush if traited! It can even rip boons with Bountiful Theft! So the unblockable feature ensures all of these hit... well, unless the opponent is dodging/evading, of course...
  6. ...but Basilisk Venom also guarantees all of those hit, and at twice the range!

I get the concept of turning the Daredevil into a brawler, and that's great. However, to put it politely, the people in charge of doing this are like political pundits on television... they are overpaid and have absolutely no clue. As a longtime customer of Anet, I can say that. And as a customer, I'm very disappointed in what the product has become.

Why does Anet believe that giving Steal an unblockable ability in any way makes up for halving the range? An unblockable Steal in itself does next to nothing. It doesn't damage, it doesn't interrupt, it doesn't rip boons, it doesn't do anything other than grant an item if used on somebody hiding behind a shield. That's it. In order for an unblockable Steal to do ANYTHING at all is for it to be traited to do those things. And those traits have always been needed in order for Steal to do anything. Basilisk Venom performs the unblockable capability just fine.

Out of all the possibilities to enhance Steal, out of all the possibilities to make it more brawler oriented, making it unblockable seems rather lacking. Come to think of it, Steal doesn't actually steal anything. It doesn't steal boons. It doesn't steal an item from an enemy... it just creates an item from nothing. Why not make Swipe do something worthwhile? Actually ripping boons baseline. Or giving it a baseline stun. Or making it actually do damage. Or disarming the target... forcing it to switch weapons/elements/gadgets... or putting a random skill of theirs on cooldown?

Perhaps Anet just wants to have a "trade-off" (nerf Daredevil compared to Core Thief), so they decided to halve the range of Steal to make up for the third dodge. I could understand that... if Daredevil wasn't already a trade-off when it originally came out. Anet already gutted Core Thief's Acrobatics in order for Daredevil to even exist. So by degrading Daredevil now, they are just degrading the already degraded Thief. It's an absolute disgust.

Why don't we just remove Shortbow 5 so it's official?

Come on, Anet! I payed you money so I can play the Thief. I payed you money so I could play the Daredevil and Deadeye as they were needed just to remain semi-competitive. I play the Thief because it is/was the closest thing to a Rogue/Assassin class you had, but perhaps even more importantly, because of the initiative system which allows me to perform the given skill I needed at that given moment in sharp contrast to the MMO-style cooldown skills of everything else. Please stop damaging the only class that has such an amazing system!

PS. Yes, Anet, we want brawling Thieves. We want assassin Thieves. We want dueling Thieves. We want Thieves that can hold their own and contribute to their team in a COMBAT-related manner without having to depend on someone else holding an opponent down while we punch them. Give us sustainability that does not require mobility so we can fight on point. Either that or give us enough damage output to be a high threat to isolated opponents so we can force them off point in a timely manner. Please, just stop attempting to shoehorn the Thief into your stated vision of the future... because you've already broken the Thief, and you're simply breaking it further, and it will not accomplish your goal. It's just making your loyal customers angry and sad.

Comments

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.

    That would probably be the most merciful thing Anet could do for Thieves at this point :'(

    I can see hundreds (maybe dozens?) of YouTube videos of Thieves being stripped naked, having their inventories deleted, then being thrown off the highest tower.

  • Dave.6819Dave.6819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    they can't stand someone pointing out their ridiculous mistakes so u know.. pretty much like government. ppl gotta stay silent shush. everytins fine.

    Thief: But i'm teef. We were supposed to be strong and cool and quick and deadly u know?
    Anet: Hold my beer. Imma steal your glory and bury u for good now.
    Thief: Wut the....?!

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dave.6819 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    they can't stand someone pointing out their ridiculous mistakes so u know.. pretty much like government. ppl gotta stay silent shush. everytins fine.

    Mate if i had to list alll the ridiculous things i got warns for I would need a whole new subforum section xD
    i can be a tad sarcastic ironic and straightforward in manner if my speech but those warns are hillarious
    funny enough they aleays come from thr same three mods xD

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    There isn't any :(

    I think part of the reason for this is because steal already gets super bloated from traits to the point where you can't give anything "new" to swipe without overlapping it with a trait or breaking the skill. Even the "unblockable" part already partially exists in the boon rip trait that prioritizes aegis before other boons.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kolly.9872 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me everytime I try to voice my disappointment.

    Pretty sure they don't remove your threads just for "voicing your disappointment". And I'm not sure how money spent by you is in any way relevant here :D

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Kolly.9872 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me everytime I try to voice my disappointment.

    Pretty sure they don't remove your threads just for "voicing your disappointment". And I'm not sure how money spent by you is in any way relevant here :D

    mmm nah, they can be pretty petty. They have put marks for essentially nothing.

    For example one time, I deleted one of my own comments that didnt quite add to the convo but didnt break the forum rules and replaced it with "deleted comment", and they jailed me (3 points).

    Also the money point is relevant because they are claiming the forum mods are silencing paying customers who have complaints. This, if true, will most certainly drive away some players.

    Not everyone is happy with the state of the game, but are there enough who are dissatisfied for it to matter?

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Shade.8971 said:
    Anet actual reason was a trade off philosophy. DD gave extra tools on top of core thief so a nerf to DD steal was the tradeoff. Ironically enough, core thief was meta in SPvP before swipe came.

    See, that's where I believe they are completely off-base with the trade off philosophy... because the entire Daredevil specialization itself was a trade off to Core Thief. So what we have now is a nerfed version of a nerfed Thief. The Daredevil is literally Thief Nerfed Squared... "d = tn2"

    Anet didn't create a new Thief identity with Daredevil like they did with the other professions or the future Deadeye. They basically just removed the old Feline Grace trait from Acrobatics, and renamed it Daredevil. They created some new traits based around the extra dodge, and there you have it.

    Heck, they could have left Feline Grace and Acrobatics alone, consolidated some of the old traits/utilities, added a few of the new ones to the existing traitlines, and given the Core Thief access to the Staff, and the Thief would STILL be on par with with all the other Core professions... gaining only a 5th weapon (Dagger, Pistol, Sword, Shortbow, and Staff).

    Daredevil would definitely have been a better replacement for failing Core Thief aspects than a full specialization. Honestly, they could have replaced Traps with Physical abilities, and everyone would be happier... especially after they continue to nerf traps to make them useless or let them rot completely unfixed.

    I must admit, if Anet truly does wish to destroy the Thief, it was a brilliant long-term move. "Get access to a new, much more capable Thief through the Daredevil specialization! That is, right after we completely wreck Core Thief capability!" It reminds me of stores who advertise big sales coming up, only to find out that they raised their normal prices the day before the sale begins.

    Alas, I just wish that Anet would stop trying to balance the Thief like they balance everything else. The Thief is unique in this game, and it should be treated as such. It cannot be balanced against everything else using the same standard. Once again to use the Quidditch analogy, the Thief isn't playing the same game as everyone else... playing with balls and hoops. The Thief is off on its own, trying to catch the Golden Snitch.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Kolly.9872 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me everytime I try to voice my disappointment.

    Pretty sure they don't remove your threads just for "voicing your disappointment". And I'm not sure how money spent by you is in any way relevant here :D

    mmm nah, they can be pretty petty. They have put marks for essentially nothing.

    For example one time, I deleted one of my own comments that didnt quite add to the convo but didnt break the forum rules and replaced it with "deleted comment", and they jailed me (3 points).

    Also the money point is relevant because they are claiming the forum mods are silencing paying customers who have complaints. This, if true, will most certainly drive away some players.

    Not everyone is happy with the state of the game, but are there enough who are dissatisfied for it to matter?

    Just skim through the forum and you'll see a lot of complaints that "magically" aren't deleted, so I'm still calling bullkitten on this. Stop insulting people in your "just voicing disappointment" threads and I doubt anyone will have a reason to delete it.
    And no, I'm not saying their moderation is good (or even consistent at times), but claiming that they delete threads "because I voiced my disappointment and they can't deal with it" just seems like a big stretch.

    What he wrote was:

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me

    Which looks to me like expecting to get special treatment on boards based on the fact that he spent money, lmao. I'm not sure how paying would render you immune to the rules that everyone has to obey, that makes literally no sense.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 10, 2019

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Kolly.9872 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me everytime I try to voice my disappointment.

    Pretty sure they don't remove your threads just for "voicing your disappointment". And I'm not sure how money spent by you is in any way relevant here :D

    mmm nah, they can be pretty petty. They have put marks for essentially nothing.

    For example one time, I deleted one of my own comments that didnt quite add to the convo but didnt break the forum rules and replaced it with "deleted comment", and they jailed me (3 points).

    Also the money point is relevant because they are claiming the forum mods are silencing paying customers who have complaints. This, if true, will most certainly drive away some players.

    Not everyone is happy with the state of the game, but are there enough who are dissatisfied for it to matter?

    Just skim through the forum and you'll see a lot of complaints that "magically" aren't deleted, so I'm still calling bullkitten on this. Stop insulting people in your "just voicing disappointment" threads and I doubt anyone will have a reason to delete it.
    And no, I'm not saying their moderation is good (or even consistent at times), but claiming that they delete threads "because I voiced my disappointment and they can't deal with it" just seems like a big stretch.

    What he wrote was:

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me

    Which looks to me like expecting to get special treatment on boards based on the fact that he spent money, lmao. I'm not sure how paying would render you immune to the rules that everyone has to obey, that makes literally no sense.

    How do u explain my thread disappearing thief getting removed and me getting a warning when all I said was I hardly see thieves in wvw after 1.5 hrs the previous night I saw 1 DD who was on our team. Since the patch theyve almost disappeared on my server,atleast on mine anyway. I even stated other may have been having a different experience as I can only speak to my own. I then stated good job arenet.
    Is that really such a bad, insulting thread? Constructive criticism pointing out there is a problem and its affecting thier playerbase, if I was a dev I would want to kno but gues that's just me.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Kolly.9872 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Carefully that post will prob warrant a ban.i got a warning cuz I made a thread about not seeing many thieves in wvw anymore and stating good job arenet. I cant believe arenet let's the moderators ban people for so little,ud think especially given recent history they'd like to keep all the paying customers they can,buy gues not. They are giving warning for rediculouse reasons.

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me everytime I try to voice my disappointment.

    Pretty sure they don't remove your threads just for "voicing your disappointment". And I'm not sure how money spent by you is in any way relevant here :D

    mmm nah, they can be pretty petty. They have put marks for essentially nothing.

    For example one time, I deleted one of my own comments that didnt quite add to the convo but didnt break the forum rules and replaced it with "deleted comment", and they jailed me (3 points).

    Also the money point is relevant because they are claiming the forum mods are silencing paying customers who have complaints. This, if true, will most certainly drive away some players.

    Not everyone is happy with the state of the game, but are there enough who are dissatisfied for it to matter?

    Just skim through the forum and you'll see a lot of complaints that "magically" aren't deleted, so I'm still calling bullkitten on this. Stop insulting people in your "just voicing disappointment" threads and I doubt anyone will have a reason to delete it.
    And no, I'm not saying their moderation is good (or even consistent at times), but claiming that they delete threads "because I voiced my disappointment and they can't deal with it" just seems like a big stretch.

    What he wrote was:

    I have spent a lot of Money on this game and still they ban me

    Which looks to me like expecting to get special treatment on boards based on the fact that he spent money, lmao. I'm not sure how paying would render you immune to the rules that everyone has to obey, that makes literally no sense.

    How do u explain my thread disappearing thief getting removed and me getting a warning when all I said was I hardly see thieves in wvw after 1.5 hrs the previous night I saw 1 DD who was on our team. Since the patch theyve almost disappeared on my server,atleast on mine anyway. I even stated other may have been having a different experience as I can only speak to my own. I then stated good job arenet.
    Is that really such a bad, insulting thread? Constructive criticism pointing out there is a problem and its affecting thier playerbase, if I was a dev I would want to kno but gues that's just me.

    I don't REALLY know, because I don't have a full picture (like thread+responces and the warning you got). Not that it matters or would change anything btw. But there are easly multiple reasons for why it could be deleted, right off the top of my head
    1. You had some light insults at someone (anet or not) in your post that you're not mentioning here
    2. Your thread might have turned into a dumpster fire (and this one isn't doing so well right now either btw :grin: )
    3. You say it was "constructive criticism", but saying "I see less and less DD in wvw" is not "constructive" at all. It also isn't that helpful for them, because they have data on a lot of things and probably know better how many people (and in what modes) play each of the classes/specs.

    You actually should have the reason of deleting your thread written right there in the message from the mod, so me guessing is pointless.

    Anyways, you also have threads like suggesting there are perma-invis hacks in the wvw; saying they don't play/understand their own game; another complaint about ruining wvw and population dropping. None of these threads got deleted, so when you're talking about anet silencing you and deleting "constructive criticism", I'll say it's doubtful and maybe even unreasonable.

    Now if they delete half of this thread, it's not because they're trying to "silence us uncovering truth about moderation", but because we're derailing this thread to kitten :astonished:

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    If they made swipe actually give daredevil specific steal skills like how deadeye gets a different pool of skills then it would be fine. Make them knockdowns, a hard stun, etc. But they didn't do anything other than go. OH kitten DD NEEDS A TRADE OFF! Umm what is easiest? Nerf steal range.

    It was an INCREDIBLY lazy change with 0 thought behind it. ZERO.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    OH kitten DD NEEDS A TRADE OFF! Umm what is easiest? Nerf steal range.

    The more I think about it, the more puzzled I become. Their actions do not align with their stated goal at all!

    Patch description:
    Our focus on the thief in this update has been toward daredevil, its traits, and the trade-off that it was inherently built without.

    Daredevil was built without a trade-off? Are you kidding me? Daredevil IS the trade-off! You literally gutted Acrobatics in order to create Daredevil!
    If Acrobatics remained intact, Thieves could have actually been evasive AND chosen Deadeye. That's already a huge loss.
    Well, perhaps you're right. Daredevil wasn't built with a trade-off... in the OTHER direction! What's the benefit of gaining a third dodge that we already had before?
    So you halved the range of Steal, but what does Daredevil get in return? What's the benefit to choosing it over a pre-gutted Acrobatics Thief?

    If you're going to make something unblockable, at least give it something that is worth blocking. Again, Steal/Swipe does absolutely NOTHING to be blocked. Blocking a Steal is like stunning an AFK player. It's an absolute waste. At least give it an inherent daze. Give it a half-second knockdown. Give it meaning.

    Patch description:
    Daredevil traits have been reworked to focus on three categories: choosing your defense in the Adept tier; choosing your damage in the Master tier; and choosing your dodge maneuver in the Grandmaster tier.

    You're deciding to clearly organize traitlines now? If so, can you PLEASE go and do the same for all the other Thief traitlines?
    Also, all three Grandmaster slots being a mere choice of dodge modifications is rather silly. An actual benefit to trade-off for the Steal range reduction would be to make the dodge modifications F3, F4, and F5 so the Thief can adapt.

    Patch description:
    With this update, we are adding a trade-off to the profession skill that keeps the theme of a melee-oriented specialization.

    Again, what is the trade-off that keeps the them of a melee-oriented specialization?
    Half-ranged gap closer? Why? So the Daredevil cannot run far away between Steals? It still can. Or to make it easy pickings for a sniping Ranger?
    Weaker Staff attacks? Yeah, that really keeps it melee-oriented.

    Come on Anet! The Thief is already on the bottom of the food chain in Conquest. The Daredevil is just a different shade of Thief... it's not "special" like the Deadeye.

    PS. Oh my... what "trade-off" are they going to make with Deadeye now? Only one dodge? A chance for a gun malfunction? Self-knockback on Death's Judgement?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    OH kitten DD NEEDS A TRADE OFF! Umm what is easiest? Nerf steal range.

    The more I think about it, the more puzzled I become. Their actions do not align with their stated goal at all!

    Patch description:
    Our focus on the thief in this update has been toward daredevil, its traits, and the trade-off that it was inherently built without.

    Daredevil was built without a trade-off? Are you kidding me? Daredevil IS the trade-off! You literally gutted Acrobatics in order to create Daredevil!
    If Acrobatics remained intact, Thieves could have actually been evasive AND chosen Deadeye. That's already a huge loss.
    Well, perhaps you're right. Daredevil wasn't built with a trade-off... in the OTHER direction! What's the benefit of gaining a third dodge that we already had before?
    So you halved the range of Steal, but what does Daredevil get in return? What's the benefit to choosing it over a pre-gutted Acrobatics Thief?

    If you're going to make something unblockable, at least give it something that is worth blocking. Again, Steal/Swipe does absolutely NOTHING to be blocked. Blocking a Steal is like stunning an AFK player. It's an absolute waste. At least give it an inherent daze. Give it a half-second knockdown. Give it meaning.

    Patch description:
    Daredevil traits have been reworked to focus on three categories: choosing your defense in the Adept tier; choosing your damage in the Master tier; and choosing your dodge maneuver in the Grandmaster tier.

    You're deciding to clearly organize traitlines now? If so, can you PLEASE go and do the same for all the other Thief traitlines?
    Also, all three Grandmaster slots being a mere choice of dodge modifications is rather silly. An actual benefit to trade-off for the Steal range reduction would be to make the dodge modifications F3, F4, and F5 so the Thief can adapt.

    Patch description:
    With this update, we are adding a trade-off to the profession skill that keeps the theme of a melee-oriented specialization.

    Again, what is the trade-off that keeps the them of a melee-oriented specialization?
    Half-ranged gap closer? Why? So the Daredevil cannot run far away between Steals? It still can. Or to make it easy pickings for a sniping Ranger?
    Weaker Staff attacks? Yeah, that really keeps it melee-oriented.

    Come on Anet! The Thief is already on the bottom of the food chain in Conquest. The Daredevil is just a different shade of Thief... it's not "special" like the Deadeye.

    PS. Oh my... what "trade-off" are they going to make with Deadeye now? Only one dodge? A chance for a gun malfunction? Self-knockback on Death's Judgement?

    DD having access to all three dodges as a way to adapt to fights is awsome.
    100% agree with the rest as well.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Arenet really needs to give thief as a whole ACTUAL significant buffs for it to become viable in the game as it is and stop conforming to nerf cries that are often spouted out of annoyance rather than the the skills in question actually being OP. Unless of course it is their plan for thief to literally be a runner/decapper and nothing else. If that is the case what a waste of what used to be a fun class.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 12, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless of course it is their plan for thief to literally be a runner/decapper and nothing else.

    I could understand that if they would actually design the Thief for that "role."
    Give the Thief traits to actually succeed in decapping. Examples...

    Swift Swindler: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize at twice the rate.

    Undeniable Presence: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize even if the Thief is Stealthed.

    Unseen Defender: A contested control node fully controlled by the Thief's team will not be neutralized as long as the Thief is present even if Stealthed.

    Right Under Their Nose: A contested control node will slowly neutralize as long as the Thief is present and visible. If the Thief leaves the control node or enters Stealth even for a moment, all neutralization progress will instantly be lost.

    Security System: The Thief leaves a trap on a control node that it neutralizes. When activated, the trap knocks all opponents out of the control node and creates an impassible forcefield around the control node that lasts for 5 seconds.

    Could they break things? Of course. They are just examples. Unfortunately, the Thief is already broken. If it's going to be a decapper, they may as well give it the tools to succeed at it. Personally, I'd prefer better combat/assassination ability, but if they won't give us that, then the "sabotage/steal control nodes" aspect could be quite fun if given the proper tools.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless of course it is their plan for thief to literally be a runner/decapper and nothing else.

    I could understand that if they would actually design the Thief for that "role."
    Give the Thief traits to actually succeed in decapping. Examples...

    Swift Swindler: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize at twice the rate.

    Undeniable Presence: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize even if the Thief is Stealthed.

    Unseen Defender: A contested control node fully controlled by the Thief's team will not be neutralized as long as the Thief is present even if Stealthed.

    Right Under Their Nose: A contested control node will slowly neutralize as long as the Thief is present and visible. If the Thief leaves the control node or enters Stealth even for a moment, all neutralization progress will instantly be lost.

    Security System: The Thief leaves a trap on a control node that it neutralizes. When activated, the trap knocks all opponents out of the control node and creates an impassible forcefield around the control node that lasts for 5 seconds.

    Could they break things? Of course. They are just examples. Unfortunately, the Thief is already broken. If it's going to be a decapper, they may as well give it the tools to succeed at it. Personally, I'd prefer better combat/assassination ability, but if they won't give us that, then the "sabotage/steal control nodes" aspect could be quite fun if given the proper tools.

    While I understand the desire to improve thief, I do not think adding traits that are specific to one game mode is the way to go.

    Where they went wrong with thief is in giving it a role that was very specific to the profession and then spreading all of those abilities to other classes wherein those professions did not "lose anything" to garner those abilities even as the tools that made this work on thief were made weaker. IE , lowering the ability to stealth on thief even as stealth passed out to other classes. Curtailing port abilities even as more ports added to other classes. Cutting back on burst damage even as more burst added to other classes.

    This^
    Really seems like arenanet has a double standard regarding thief balancing when compared to other classes. Definitely could be wrong but kinda feels like not really knowing how to balance thief mixed with relying on nerf cries led to alot of the changes due to the fact alot seemed like they wernt very thought out.

  • Shade.8971Shade.8971 Member ✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless of course it is their plan for thief to literally be a runner/decapper and nothing else.

    I could understand that if they would actually design the Thief for that "role."
    Give the Thief traits to actually succeed in decapping. Examples...

    Swift Swindler: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize at twice the rate.

    Undeniable Presence: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize even if the Thief is Stealthed.

    Unseen Defender: A contested control node fully controlled by the Thief's team will not be neutralized as long as the Thief is present even if Stealthed.

    Right Under Their Nose: A contested control node will slowly neutralize as long as the Thief is present and visible. If the Thief leaves the control node or enters Stealth even for a moment, all neutralization progress will instantly be lost.

    Security System: The Thief leaves a trap on a control node that it neutralizes. When activated, the trap knocks all opponents out of the control node and creates an impassible forcefield around the control node that lasts for 5 seconds.

    Could they break things? Of course. They are just examples. Unfortunately, the Thief is already broken. If it's going to be a decapper, they may as well give it the tools to succeed at it. Personally, I'd prefer better combat/assassination ability, but if they won't give us that, then the "sabotage/steal control nodes" aspect could be quite fun if given the proper tools.

    While I understand the desire to improve thief, I do not think adding traits that are specific to one game mode is the way to go.

    Where they went wrong with thief is in giving it a role that was very specific to the profession and then spreading all of those abilities to other classes wherein those professions did not "lose anything" to garner those abilities even as the tools that made this work on thief were made weaker. IE , lowering the ability to stealth on thief even as stealth passed out to other classes. Curtailing port abilities even as more ports added to other classes. Cutting back on burst damage even as more burst added to other classes.

    I think it's important to remember thief was and is a meta defining profession. They were a profession capable of in and out tactics with quick burst. So other professions needed a way to combat the thief. Anet just took it too far. Other classes can do what the thief can and better too, save for decap because of shortbow 5. Thief does not have an identity of its own. The only thing they have is steal and it is an extremely bloated skill.

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @babazhook.6805 said:

    @Kageseigi.2150 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Unless of course it is their plan for thief to literally be a runner/decapper and nothing else.

    I could understand that if they would actually design the Thief for that "role."
    Give the Thief traits to actually succeed in decapping. Examples...

    Swift Swindler: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize at twice the rate.

    Undeniable Presence: A control node with only the Thief present will capture/neutralize even if the Thief is Stealthed.

    Unseen Defender: A contested control node fully controlled by the Thief's team will not be neutralized as long as the Thief is present even if Stealthed.

    Right Under Their Nose: A contested control node will slowly neutralize as long as the Thief is present and visible. If the Thief leaves the control node or enters Stealth even for a moment, all neutralization progress will instantly be lost.

    Security System: The Thief leaves a trap on a control node that it neutralizes. When activated, the trap knocks all opponents out of the control node and creates an impassible forcefield around the control node that lasts for 5 seconds.

    Could they break things? Of course. They are just examples. Unfortunately, the Thief is already broken. If it's going to be a decapper, they may as well give it the tools to succeed at it. Personally, I'd prefer better combat/assassination ability, but if they won't give us that, then the "sabotage/steal control nodes" aspect could be quite fun if given the proper tools.

    While I understand the desire to improve thief, I do not think adding traits that are specific to one game mode is the way to go.

    Where they went wrong with thief is in giving it a role that was very specific to the profession and then spreading all of those abilities to other classes wherein those professions did not "lose anything" to garner those abilities even as the tools that made this work on thief were made weaker. IE , lowering the ability to stealth on thief even as stealth passed out to other classes. Curtailing port abilities even as more ports added to other classes. Cutting back on burst damage even as more burst added to other classes.

    Yes, I agree 100%. It's a shame that I'd even think about game-type upgrades, though I'm not sure what the recourse is.

    While Conquest is point-based, those points require combat to achieve. Every other profession can capture, contest, or defend control nodes with their combat abilities. The Thief, however, cannot really do any of those well. Even the decap potential can be pretty much shut down these days by certain players/builds on some maps.

    To add even more to the Thief's disadvantage, an entire traitline (Shadow Arts) is literally negated in Conquest because entering Stealth forfeits any chance of capturing/holding control nodes. I don't know of any other such punishment in the game... the closest thing I can remember is the old Diamond Skin trait that would completely deny condition-based opponents from harming Elementalists.

    But you and every other Thief player know all of this already. It's still worth saying, I suppose. Maybe Anet will decide to read it and take it seriously someday.

    Sadly, the Thief's only true "role" in Conquest is to be a decapper. It's the only non-combat "role" in the game. And it's the only one the Thief can perform decently. Unfortunately, without absolute mobile-supremacy (which is no longer the case), not even the Thief can take full advantage of decapping or +1-ing. And against proper rotations and compositions, taking advantage of any outnumbering situations is questionable. Really, how effective is a Thief in a 5v4 team-fight at Mid these days?

    It's just all... so sad :'(

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Shade.8971 said:
    Anet actual reason was a trade off philosophy. DD gave extra tools on top of core thief so a nerf to DD steal was the tradeoff. Ironically enough, core thief was meta in SPvP before swipe came. What is even more ironic, no other elite spec was nerfed for this ridicoulous tradeoff kitten.

    That's not entirely true, reaper shroud lose the core shroud range and cost 40% more Life force to maintain if you want an example.

    Holosmith gets every toolbelt skill like core engi but with an extra I Win button.

    Photon Forge is on F5, they lose a tool belt skill actually. You could say that scrapper don't lose anything, gaining this "extra" skill that revive/finish foes and is only ever useful in PvP/short scale fight.

    Chrono and mirage are miles better than core mesmer yet were untouched.

    True.

    Even core rev was buffed with a new skill so herald wouldnt get nerfed.

    We all know that core rev is still in alpha/beta test.

    Daredevil was a spec that did not need to be touched. After much needed nerfs in HoT and powercreep of PoF, Daredevil needed only tweaks.

    I agree with that, but ANet choose the easy way to enforce their will to strengthen their philosophy. Something that they've done mainly to soothe PvP player concern about powercreep. And I agree that adding more on top of the core professions without any trade off is worth being concerned about powercreep.

    Whatever happen, there wouldn't have been any trade off well received by a community used to a powercreep e-spec after years of using it. They only reduce slightly daredevil mobility, honnestly they've been pretty soft and, yes, fair on the trade off for an extra dodge. Compared to reaper, DD just got it's range reduced, imagine if on top of that they had reduced initiative recovery rate and then removed a trait that reduce steal CD for no real reason. (See DD have it pretty easy compared to reaper when it come to trade off already).

    With people asking for trickery to be "less mandatory" ANet is bound to make some deadly uncalled nerfs, a reduction of steal range is nothing compared to what people are calling for.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    Nvm bad manip

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think since last year Nov patch the changes have been terrible, and made balance worse. Anet devs seem to have an idea, then make changes based on that idea, but with no testing and little understanding of the overall impact of these changes. They do not even bother to see if these changes achieved their goals.

    The changes to DD as documented here, made DD worse. There were already significant trade offs between core and DD. The change was supposed to make DD better on point fighter, but there is much lacking for anyone who played DD for a bit, that the changes did not remotely touch.

    The changes to berserker is another example. It did not make berserker viable. Just a meme 1 shot build, mainly in WvW.

    Condi mirage was outperforming. Instead of fixing some of the issues that caused it to outperform, Anet just did a major blanket nerf to damage, to the point it is no longer viable.

    Guardian was significantly nerfed, supposedly to create diversity. Yet all the changes did is limit FB to be the only competitive build.

    Remember when Anet said they want to address boon stacking? Nothing came out of that except a nerf to boon beast. There are multiple other builds that stack ridiculous amount of booms that were not touched.

    There are tons of other examples. As OP mentioned, Anet does these almost PR stunts, like boon normalization or trade offs. But they do not follow through. I do not know if they lack they competence or will. Regardless, there is huge disconnect between what they claim they want to achieve and what happens. There is little to no follow-up afterwards. And things are broken and left to rot.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah anet's balance team leaves a lot to be desired :/

    Speaking of how trickery is pretty much mandatory, I wonder if its possible to drop it and make a build focused on sustain while ignoring steal/swipe. Something like Acro/Crit Strikes/DD. Each traitline provides healing through initiative, crits and evades respectively, but I'm not sure if it is enough to make a difference.

    ... then again you could also just run the tried and true Sw/D core thief with 2k heals on a 1200 range steal (+ a lot of other bonuses attached to it) and call it a day.

    Maybe the solution to this trickery problem is not to nerf trickery, but to buff the other traitlines so they can compete (I'm looking at you shadow arts).

  • Straegen.2938Straegen.2938 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shade.8971 said:
    I think it's important to remember thief was and is a meta defining profession. They were a profession capable of in and out tactics with quick burst. So other professions needed a way to combat the thief. Anet just took it too far. Other classes can do what the thief can and better too, save for decap because of shortbow 5. Thief does not have an identity of its own. The only thing they have is steal and it is an extremely bloated skill.

    ANet lost the plot when they started having non-targeted attacks that hit 5 players often at range for more damage than attacks that are close range single target and must be setup to be lethal. This in turn caused them to create more and more bunker meta to handle the AoE "slough" while never compensating the thief causing it fall further behind the meta. They then compounded the problem by nerfing various thief abilities and skills to issues that were long since resolved. ANet has systematically killed pretty much every weapon set on the class leaving only the best of the worst.

  • Creaitov.6328Creaitov.6328 Member ✭✭✭

    @Straegen.2938 said:

    @Shade.8971 said:
    I think it's important to remember thief was and is a meta defining profession. They were a profession capable of in and out tactics with quick burst. So other professions needed a way to combat the thief. Anet just took it too far. Other classes can do what the thief can and better too, save for decap because of shortbow 5. Thief does not have an identity of its own. The only thing they have is steal and it is an extremely bloated skill.

    ANet lost the plot when they started having non-targeted attacks that hit 5 players often at range for more damage than attacks that are close range single target and must be setup to be lethal. This in turn caused them to create more and more bunker meta to handle the AoE "slough" while never compensating the thief causing it fall further behind the meta. They then compounded the problem by nerfing various thief abilities and skills to issues that were long since resolved. ANet has systematically killed pretty much every weapon set on the class leaving only the best of the worst.

    I agree. Worst part is that, if you think about it, with the current state of the game buffing thief to be on par with other classes would be one of the most unhealthy things anet could do. Since most of our kit is single target oriented, buffing thief would probably lead to more stupid oneshot builds instead of something truly balanced. And that's ignoring the delicate balance between defenses and mobility/stealth.

    IMO the other classes need to be toned down in order to allow thief to compete. In fact, if you ask me I think thief is one of the most "fair" and balanced classes in the game (ignoring the cheese oneshot backstab DE build). It has no crazy AoE damage*, no invulns and almost no stab, but on the other hand its strengths are great mobility and easy access to stealth, and this is what makes the class special. I wonder if the people that play zerker and/or holosmith can say the same about their classes when both of those specs basically do the same: melt everything in an area around you while having a nice mix of defense and mobility.

    *signet of power vault spam DD is a special case lol

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Creaitov.6328 said:
    I agree. Worst part is that, if you think about it, with the current state of the game buffing thief to be on par with other classes would be one of the most unhealthy things anet could do.
    .......
    IMO the other classes need to be toned down in order to allow thief to compete. In fact, if you ask me I think thief is one of the most "fair" and balanced classes in the game

    I agree with this. Though I'm afraid I still have a difficult time understanding whenever I hear someone say that "the Thief is a balanced class." The reason I say that is because balance is a relative thing. And I don't really know what it's being balanced against. The Thief may be a very well designed class, but in comparison with the others in the current game, it's sadly very imbalanced. Again, I do know what you're saying, but I think the way it's phrased isn't quite accurate.

    I also agree that the Thief doesn't necessarily need to be "buffed" up to the level of the others. I do believe that it would do the Thief a world of good if its traitlines were reorganized into very logical and exclusive categories. As I said in another thread, the Deadeye traitline shouldn't be the "assassin" line. The Deadeye should be the "ranged" line that focuses specifically on ranged weapons/combat... it really shouldn't affect melee at all.

    "Deadly Arts"... what does that even mean? It's vague and too diverse. I understand poison traits being a "deadly art"... but why is Executioner and Improvisation included? Why are venom traits not included in the poison traitline? Wouldn't Executioner fit better in Critical Strikes? Wouldn't Improvisation fit better in Trickery?

    I'd prefer to divide Core traitlines into something like the following...

    • Direct Damage
    • Condition Damage
    • Evasion
    • Stealth
    • Utility

    I'm not even sure if Stealth deserves its own line anymore. It may need to be combined with Evasion or Utility to make room for another line.
    Make sure that each traitline includes ONLY traits that fall into its description.
    While you may lose some synergy between traits/lines currently available, you would gain more.

    Deadeye would, of course, be the "Ranged" traitline.
    I'm not sure what Daredevil would be classified as exactly.

    This wouldn't be the fix-all for the Thief, but it would be a big step in the right direction. I still believe that due to the initiative system, Thieves shouldn't be punished with weapon-swap cooldowns. I'm a big believer in a Thief, being fragile and focused on active gameplay (as opposed to passive), being able to have many options to adapt to any given situation, so removing many arbitrary limitations would be inline with its theme. Even if it could have stances/modes or dynamic traitlines mid-fight (similar to Elementalist attunements), that would be another possibility that could give the Thief fresh life.

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