Rank all the classes for most OP WvW 1 vs 1 impromptu fights Mid 2019 (External Poll) — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Rank all the classes for most OP WvW 1 vs 1 impromptu fights Mid 2019 (External Poll)

EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

Back at the start of 2019, we had a poll to rank classes in terms of most OP in 1 vs 1 impromptu fights when roaming.

Out of 100+ votes, the results back in Jan 2019 were:
2.5Mesmer
3.0Ranger
3.5Engineer
4.2Thief
5.4Warrior
5.5Revenant
6.0Elementalist
7.0Guardian
7.8Necro

Lets do one more now that we are coming up to Mid 2019 and see if the balance patches over the months had caused any changes to their rankings!

Impromptu fights meaning it is not an arranged duel where they bow and change builds and try to counter each other.
Impromptu meaning they roam with their usual roaming builds and meet each other while roaming and engage in a fight spontaneously.

Poll Link Here:
http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/yspgaj/most-op-wvw-1-vs-1-class-mid-2019

Poll Results Here:
http://www.polljunkie.com/poll/pptrem/most-op-wvw-1-vs-1-class-mid-2019/view

<1

Comments

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I dont think it changed much. I'd move ranger 1 place up and thief 1 place down, but even this is pretty accurate.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:
    Impromptu fights meaning it is not an arranged duel where they bow and change builds and try to counter each other.
    Impromptu meaning they roam with their usual roaming builds and meet each other while roaming and engage in a fight spontaneously.

    if you say they meet each other while roaming and engage in a fight, doesnt it mean at an objective of interest like a camp or is the main goal just the fight? because if you fight over objectives, then mobility and range damage do lose quite a bit of their power as you cant kite as much without losing the objective/retreating from the fight.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • Sleepwalker.1398Sleepwalker.1398 Member ✭✭✭

    I think after recent patch Berserker (Arc Divider) build is quite strong and maybe 3rd.

  • Faaris.8013Faaris.8013 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    Doesn't it really depend on the matchup? What if a Mesmer beats a Ranger but not an Engineer, but the Ranger beats the Engineer? How many people can actually give a reasonable vote anyway? Only very few people actually play planned 1 vs. 1 duels in WvW. Most encounters are random and don't mean anything. When I roam, I'm not set up for 1 vs. 1 duels and any class that is, can beat me. If I set my toon up for 1 vs. 1, I cannot do anything else without feeling the pain, therefore I never do that and cannot even tell how I would do in real 1 vs. 1 duels.

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    As long as you can't differentiate between elite professions and the core class, the poll can't reflect the reality that you encounter on the maps. If you focus on the "impromptu" adjective, professions with sudden attack abilities (bursts, hitting from stealth, pew pew from range) would have to be looked at differently than "just meeting an enemy on the open field" and deciding to fight over something.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    1) Scrapper - broken beyond reason ...nothing more to add
    2) Holosmisth
    3) One shot s/s heralds
    4) Core wars
    5) Power chrono/mirages
    6) Power reapers

    I have listed the roaming builds littering the EU scene from most often seen to least....

    Lol.

    In almost a month I've literally seen one other scrapper worth his salt in a 1v1. A p/p scrapper that I just saw for about 1 minute. All other scrappers are running 2v2+ smallscale support builds while relying on someone else to kill things. They are useless in 1v1 except just plain surviving. I meet more dangerous zerg built scourges in 1v1 fights, if they got the skills to back it up.

    Holosmith are far from common 1v1. Just like the meta scrapper, they excel in smallscale - except instead of support bunker support, they run stunlock dps.

    Soulbeasts are one of the most common 1v1 engagements, even though I will agree that most arent that good. They are most lethal in +1 situations, cant focus another player with a dps soulbeast hammering you. But I've still seen good duelists.

    Also I find it incredibly amusing that you dont say a word about spellbreakers, one of the most common random roamers. Berserkers have also taken hold. Core warrior? Hahaha... They're about as rare as a 1v1 built scrappers.

    No mention about the DH either, they are fairly common and capable in 1v1 for those that can play it. Firebrands mostly stick to smallscaling and up with zerg builds similar to the meta scrapper - cant kill them, they cant kill a kitten.

    No mention about the thief either. They're not as common as before, but daredevils and deadeyes still exist.

    A scrapper telling me that...scrapper is not that common, so you must be another "victim" of a +1 from a pewpew ranger and now come to vent on the forum after seeing his barrier spam build finally hit the ground....it's all the same in the end, the forum is the same kitten

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    1) Scrapper - broken beyond reason ...nothing more to add
    2) Holosmisth
    3) One shot s/s heralds
    4) Core wars
    5) Power chrono/mirages
    6) Power reapers

    I have listed the roaming builds littering the EU scene from most often seen to least....

    Lol.

    In almost a month I've literally seen one other scrapper worth his salt in a 1v1. A p/p scrapper that I just saw for about 1 minute. All other scrappers are running 2v2+ smallscale support builds while relying on someone else to kill things. They are useless in 1v1 except just plain surviving. I meet more dangerous zerg built scourges in 1v1 fights, if they got the skills to back it up.

    Holosmith are far from common 1v1. Just like the meta scrapper, they excel in smallscale - except instead of support bunker support, they run stunlock dps.

    Soulbeasts are one of the most common 1v1 engagements, even though I will agree that most arent that good. They are most lethal in +1 situations, cant focus another player with a dps soulbeast hammering you. But I've still seen good duelists.

    Also I find it incredibly amusing that you dont say a word about spellbreakers, one of the most common random roamers. Berserkers have also taken hold. Core warrior? Hahaha... They're about as rare as a 1v1 built scrappers.

    No mention about the DH either, they are fairly common and capable in 1v1 for those that can play it. Firebrands mostly stick to smallscaling and up with zerg builds similar to the meta scrapper - cant kill them, they cant kill a kitten.

    No mention about the thief either. They're not as common as before, but daredevils and deadeyes still exist.

    A scrapper telling me that...scrapper is not that common, so you must be another "victim" of a +1 from a pewpew ranger and now come to vent on the forum after seeing his barrier spam build finally hit the ground....it's all the same in the end, the forum is the same kitten

    No I use my kitten eyes. 9 out of 10 scrappers I see use meta hammer bunkers and while it's fantastic in smallscale to support dps, it's trash 1v1. This isnt sPvP. You dont win by standing on a 4m wide circle and tank for 5 minutes. Only a few use condi builds. If there's any marauder hammer scrappers I've not personally seen them for a long, long time. Nor any rifle builds as of late. What exactly is it you meet that's so great 1v1 if it deserve the number one spot and is apparently the one class you encounter every time? To me its sounds more like you're having a problem fighting scrappers and just came and made this list after being the "victim" of another bunker scrapper you couldnt touch? See how easy that is to say. Rangers are generally no threat unless its +1 or as I said, really good duelist which are rare.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    1) Scrapper - broken beyond reason ...nothing more to add
    2) Holosmisth
    3) One shot s/s heralds
    4) Core wars
    5) Power chrono/mirages
    6) Power reapers

    I have listed the roaming builds littering the EU scene from most often seen to least....

    Lol.

    In almost a month I've literally seen one other scrapper worth his salt in a 1v1. A p/p scrapper that I just saw for about 1 minute. All other scrappers are running 2v2+ smallscale support builds while relying on someone else to kill things. They are useless in 1v1 except just plain surviving. I meet more dangerous zerg built scourges in 1v1 fights, if they got the skills to back it up.

    Holosmith are far from common 1v1. Just like the meta scrapper, they excel in smallscale - except instead of support bunker support, they run stunlock dps.

    Soulbeasts are one of the most common 1v1 engagements, even though I will agree that most arent that good. They are most lethal in +1 situations, cant focus another player with a dps soulbeast hammering you. But I've still seen good duelists.

    Also I find it incredibly amusing that you dont say a word about spellbreakers, one of the most common random roamers. Berserkers have also taken hold. Core warrior? Hahaha... They're about as rare as a 1v1 built scrappers.

    No mention about the DH either, they are fairly common and capable in 1v1 for those that can play it. Firebrands mostly stick to smallscaling and up with zerg builds similar to the meta scrapper - cant kill them, they cant kill a kitten.

    No mention about the thief either. They're not as common as before, but daredevils and deadeyes still exist.

    A scrapper telling me that...scrapper is not that common, so you must be another "victim" of a +1 from a pewpew ranger and now come to vent on the forum after seeing his barrier spam build finally hit the ground....it's all the same in the end, the forum is the same kitten

    No I use my kitten eyes. 9 out of 10 scrappers I see use meta hammer bunkers and while it's fantastic in smallscale to support dps, it's trash 1v1. This isnt sPvP. You dont win by standing on a 4m wide circle and tank for 5 minutes. Only a few use condi builds. If there's any marauder hammer scrappers I've not personally seen them for a long, long time. Nor any rifle builds as of late. What exactly is it you meet that's so great 1v1 if it deserve the number one spot and is apparently the one class you encounter every time? To me its sounds more like you're having a problem fighting scrappers and just came and made this list after being the "victim" of another bunker scrapper you couldnt touch? See how easy that is to say. Rangers are generally no threat unless its +1 or as I said, really good duelist which are rare.

    That's the whole point of my comments, I was talking about frequency of appearance, the list makes it look like there are ranger duellists behind every corner but we both know the truth...it's not that easy to be a good duellist on a ranger in the given meta atm as it's mush easier to spot any of the classes I have mentioned previously...yes it's a good duel class..in those rare occasions you actually 1v1 anyone which 9 times out of 10 becomes a 1vsX and forget even the last part.

    There is no ranger spec atm where you give up at first sight....ranger it's the easiest class to kill 1v1 in wvw...the easiest unless you face the 0.01 of the GW2 community using a ranger and in that case you may lose against a ranger 1v1.

    Is ranger a good/decent class which can be great in the right hands?...Hell yeah
    Is ranger as faceroll as engi/warrior in the roaming scene?...Sorry no and that's the reason you see a hundred holosmiths and as you have correctly pointed out..hundreds of spellbreakers strenght

    If I can kill any class with a tempest...there is no way in hell such class is OP...now way in hell, let's point out the real culprits..unless you want me to make a 10 hrs video showing the frequency of appearance of ranger duellists respect to wars and engi...

    P.S reading the OP again..He refers to ganking more than anything else and in that case I can agree with him as ranger have the pewpew sic'em and that's all they have, their other builds are mediocre at best and people know that..including the OP who hasn't lost once to rangers in his videos

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @Arheundel.6451 said:
    1) Scrapper - broken beyond reason ...nothing more to add
    2) Holosmisth
    3) One shot s/s heralds
    4) Core wars
    5) Power chrono/mirages
    6) Power reapers

    I have listed the roaming builds littering the EU scene from most often seen to least....

    Lol.

    In almost a month I've literally seen one other scrapper worth his salt in a 1v1. A p/p scrapper that I just saw for about 1 minute. All other scrappers are running 2v2+ smallscale support builds while relying on someone else to kill things. They are useless in 1v1 except just plain surviving. I meet more dangerous zerg built scourges in 1v1 fights, if they got the skills to back it up.

    Holosmith are far from common 1v1. Just like the meta scrapper, they excel in smallscale - except instead of support bunker support, they run stunlock dps.

    Soulbeasts are one of the most common 1v1 engagements, even though I will agree that most arent that good. They are most lethal in +1 situations, cant focus another player with a dps soulbeast hammering you. But I've still seen good duelists.

    Also I find it incredibly amusing that you dont say a word about spellbreakers, one of the most common random roamers. Berserkers have also taken hold. Core warrior? Hahaha... They're about as rare as a 1v1 built scrappers.

    No mention about the DH either, they are fairly common and capable in 1v1 for those that can play it. Firebrands mostly stick to smallscaling and up with zerg builds similar to the meta scrapper - cant kill them, they cant kill a kitten.

    No mention about the thief either. They're not as common as before, but daredevils and deadeyes still exist.

    A scrapper telling me that...scrapper is not that common, so you must be another "victim" of a +1 from a pewpew ranger and now come to vent on the forum after seeing his barrier spam build finally hit the ground....it's all the same in the end, the forum is the same kitten

    No I use my kitten eyes. 9 out of 10 scrappers I see use meta hammer bunkers and while it's fantastic in smallscale to support dps, it's trash 1v1. This isnt sPvP. You dont win by standing on a 4m wide circle and tank for 5 minutes. Only a few use condi builds. If there's any marauder hammer scrappers I've not personally seen them for a long, long time. Nor any rifle builds as of late. What exactly is it you meet that's so great 1v1 if it deserve the number one spot and is apparently the one class you encounter every time? To me its sounds more like you're having a problem fighting scrappers and just came and made this list after being the "victim" of another bunker scrapper you couldnt touch? See how easy that is to say. Rangers are generally no threat unless its +1 or as I said, really good duelist which are rare.

    That's the whole point of my comments, I was talking about frequency of appearance, the list makes it look like there are ranger duellists behind every corner but we both know the truth...it's not that easy to be a good duellist on a ranger in the given meta atm as it's mush easier to spot any of the classes I have mentioned previously...yes it's a good duel class..in those rare occasions you actually 1v1 anyone which 9 times out of 10 becomes a 1vsX and forget even the last part.

    There is no ranger spec atm where you give up at first sight....ranger it's the easiest class to kill 1v1 in wvw...the easiest unless you face the 0.01 of the GW2 community using a ranger and in that case you may lose against a ranger 1v1.

    Is ranger a good/decent class which can be great in the right hands?...Hell yeah
    Is ranger as faceroll as engi/warrior in the roaming scene?...Sorry no and that's the reason you see a hundred holosmiths and as you have correctly pointed out..hundreds of spellbreakers strenght

    If I can kill any class with a tempest...there is no way in hell such class is OP...now way in hell, let's point out the real culprits..unless you want me to make a 10 hrs video showing the frequency of appearance of ranger duellists respect to wars and engi...

    P.S reading the OP again..He refers to ganking more than anything else and in that case I can agree with him as ranger have the pewpew sic'em and that's all they have, their other builds are mediocre at best and people know that..including the OP who hasn't lost once to rangers in his videos

    You might want to read the OP a third time because it's refering to roaming classes 5 months ago. Rangers (and thieves) where literally behind every corner and one of the most prominent roamers while the scrapper was nearly non-existent in that scene, holo had complete dominance for the engie and it still does. The entire thread is to poll how it is now in comparison to that. Things have shifted a bit, of course we see more peeps that run scrappers and berserkers now. But it's not like rangers are rare. Soulbeasts are a constant presence, people run them for a reason and it's its not because they are easy to kill, that's a silly claim. People run what they consider effective or they wouldnt run it at all. Hell I even saw a druid today. He died though. Burned to death. Sad story.

  • Prinzsecond.4863Prinzsecond.4863 Member ✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Lol.

    In almost a month I've literally seen one other scrapper worth his salt in a 1v1. A p/p scrapper that I just saw for about 1 minute. All other scrappers are running 2v2+ smallscale support builds while relying on someone else to kill things. They are useless in 1v1 except just plain surviving. I meet more dangerous zerg built scourges in 1v1 fights, if they got the skills to back it up.

    >

    I am running P/P scrapper for at least a month now, roaming solo and having a blast with my condi build (Elona reach), so if it wasn't me that you've seen (unfortunately it was now quite some time since we had our last fight I think) there would be at least 2 p/p scrappers around :)

    But you are absolutely right, I encountered only very few scrappers and most of them were running as supporters in smallscale. 1-2 changed their class to scrapper after getting killed by me just do again die, so it is not just a blind button-Smash-class but it is currently really a veery strong condition class. I think what makes it really strong is that it has no specific Counter (a lot of condi removal, a lot of damage mitigation, a lot of superspeed and invisibility). So I would probably rank it into the top 2 regarding its POTENTIAL strenght.

  • Duckota.4769Duckota.4769 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Prinzsecond.4863 said:
    1-2 changed their class to scrapper after getting killed by me just do again die, so it is not just a blind button-Smash-class

    People will claim that about every class that kills them with no regards to anything else. Its always kitten kitten anyone win on that and then they utterly fail themselves with that class when going up against someone with thousands of hours on that same class. What a twist.

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    Reapers roaming alone are real threads you shouldn't overestimate.

    Thanks. I had a good laugh. ;)

  • TinkTinkPOOF.9201TinkTinkPOOF.9201 Member ✭✭✭

    I voted based on potential, meaning what I see is possible in 1vs1 duels with guild mates that main them, not random encounters in WvW, as most don't know how to do a proper build, and even if they did, most can not even come close to playing them to their potential.

    It's why balance should never be done based on the average player, but the highest skilled players. As the average player, the fights can be so random, and the better build/class can actually lose. While in the higher ranks of skilled players, a clear line starts to show and often times is very consistent in outcomes, some exceptions being a purpose built build/class vs a hard counter build.

    "When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Noha.3749 said:
    Community voting for best/worst profession:
    Worst -> "My profession"
    Best - > "What counters my profession best"

    This might be true to an extent. In the end we're all voting on personal experience.

    I voted a Engineer as #1 because they are inherently tanky for their damage output, have access to a lot of blast healing, barrier, superspeed & CC which is pretty much the perfect way to deal with a pew pew ranger. I don't know how it'd perform against, say, a tanky condi build. Warrior was my second pick, followed by ranger. Mesmer was my fourth pick, it amuses me they're #1 on this poll. Similarly I put necro at the bottom, they're basically free bags for rangers at no fault of their own.

    ~ Kovu

    Ranger main before it was cool.
    Fort Aspenwood.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭

    Not really possible to give a meaningful ranking here from my perspective; classes differ significantly on the elite spec alone, not to mention the rest of the build. Ranger is very high in the rankings but fighting a power soulbeast is completely different to a bunker druid for example.

  • Ansau.7326Ansau.7326 Member ✭✭✭

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    Reapers roaming alone are real threads you shouldn't overestimate.

    Thanks. I had a good laugh. ;)

    They also have quite a laugh bursting people right and left. First recent example:

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ansau.7326 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    @Ansau.7326 said:
    Reapers roaming alone are real threads you shouldn't overestimate.

    Thanks. I had a good laugh. ;)

    They also have quite a laugh bursting people right and left. First recent example:

    Hot dam.
    Real good video.
    Great editing.

  • Prinzsecond.4863Prinzsecond.4863 Member ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    Hey we ALL know that thief is the worst duellist but best zerging class, thats why all zergs compose of 60% thieves!
    But I have to admit that I did not Encounter any decent thieves in the past weeks anymore after their nerf . The class was very strong before but not OP (IMHO). But they can still pack a Punch and pose a thread in roaming.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    Yes thief is a competent 1v1. That's why their delegated to be a runner decapper cuz its too cheesey and easy to duel on them and decapping is the most fun role. They also are best +1 due to how high their crazy burst are,especially compared to specs with weak bursts like rev lmao. Seriously.

  • nthmetal.9652nthmetal.9652 Member ✭✭✭

    I wonder, of those who ranked Mesmer so high up, how many actually do play it themselves? I don't see that many Mesmers in WvW, there's always some around, but I think I see way more thieves and rangers, hell I am not sure, maybe I even see more engineers. Now, I wonder, why that might be the case ....

    "and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy"
    -- H. P. Lovecraft - Celephais

  • Duckota.4769Duckota.4769 Member ✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Duckota.4769 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

    I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

    That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

    I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

    That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

    Lol the necro main is a better thief than thief players as usual lmao. I played thief 4 yrs and I know I'm definitely not great at it. If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes. U can run behind a scrapper or fb unloading on them indefinitely and they just out heal u. I'm sry but these days if ur easlily winning 1v1 with thief than ur either playing noobs,ur a thief master or ur not being honest. I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite. Players that have mained the class for years didnt choose the boring role of decapper and limit themselves to +1 engagements due to it high proficiency in 1v1 lol they know most classes are to much a risk to try 1v1 due to most classes being in favor of winning the fight and if u do manage to win a 1v1 it most likely took too long which is funny thief being a glassy burst spec. It's always great to hear though people that dont play thief often are great at 1v1 with them as always seems the case on the forums lmao

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 I almost want to ask you to include a few more assumptions in your post which would clarify some things for people, but I'm not sure there's a good way to include these without being too wordy:

    1. Victory in a 1v1 means the build is capable of causing the opponent to retreat indefinitely (like retreat to a safe zone, tower, etc. and out of combat), or outright killing them. This means a thief kiting you and maintaining a 1200 distance while coming back in every 10s or so for a burst has not yet lost, nor are they losing.
    2. Going out of combat by itself does not equate to a loss, although if a player is repeatedly doing this, they can't get a kill or drive off the other roamer so it's most likely a loss.
    3. Ability to contest a point doesn't really mean all that much in a spontaneous 1v1. Roamers will generally ignore contestable points and instead focus on going for the kill which is why mobility plays such a huge factor.
    4. The power of a roaming class actually should be determined by those god-tier players of that class. This is because those players represent the highest potential of that class, and classes should be judged by what they're capable of, not by how hard it is to reach that skill level.

    All of these are opinion but I'd be happy to argue any "criteria" here from a practical standpoint.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765 I almost want to ask you to include a few more assumptions in your post which would clarify some things for people, but I'm not sure there's a good way to include these without being too wordy:

    1. Victory in a 1v1 means the build is capable of causing the opponent to retreat indefinitely (like retreat to a safe zone, tower, etc. and out of combat), or outright killing them. This means a thief kiting you and maintaining a 1200 distance while coming back in every 10s or so for a burst has not yet lost, nor are they losing.
    2. Going out of combat by itself does not equate to a loss, although if a player is repeatedly doing this, they can't get a kill or drive off the other roamer so it's most likely a loss.
    3. Ability to contest a point doesn't really mean all that much in a spontaneous 1v1. Roamers will generally ignore contestable points and instead focus on going for the kill which is why mobility plays such a huge factor.
    4. The power of a roaming class actually should be determined by those god-tier players of that class. This is because those players represent the highest potential of that class, and classes should be judged by what they're capable of, not by how hard it is to reach that skill level.

    All of these are opinion but I'd be happy to argue any "criteria" here from a practical standpoint.

    All very good assumptions that I would agree with.
    Am curious about how you ranked them if you would share =)

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765 I almost want to ask you to include a few more assumptions in your post which would clarify some things for people, but I'm not sure there's a good way to include these without being too wordy:

    1. Victory in a 1v1 means the build is capable of causing the opponent to retreat indefinitely (like retreat to a safe zone, tower, etc. and out of combat), or outright killing them. This means a thief kiting you and maintaining a 1200 distance while coming back in every 10s or so for a burst has not yet lost, nor are they losing.
    2. Going out of combat by itself does not equate to a loss, although if a player is repeatedly doing this, they can't get a kill or drive off the other roamer so it's most likely a loss.
    3. Ability to contest a point doesn't really mean all that much in a spontaneous 1v1. Roamers will generally ignore contestable points and instead focus on going for the kill which is why mobility plays such a huge factor.
    4. The power of a roaming class actually should be determined by those god-tier players of that class. This is because those players represent the highest potential of that class, and classes should be judged by what they're capable of, not by how hard it is to reach that skill level.

    All of these are opinion but I'd be happy to argue any "criteria" here from a practical standpoint.

    Thief sb kite is 900 range not 1200 unless DE of course which is probably what u mean.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    Alright everyone.
    Thank you for the votes.

    We have the results at 100+ votes:
    2.9Mesmer
    3.4Engineer
    3.4Warrior
    3.4Ranger
    5.1Revenant
    5.4Thief
    6.7Elementalist
    7.0Guardian
    7.7Necromancer

    Birth of the Fantastic Four:

    At the start of the year, there was Batman (Mesmer) and Robin (Ranger) forming the pair of superheroes that no one could touch.
    And so it was that they sat firmly in the number 1 and 2 spots, far ahead of everyone else.

    However, with each cosmic cataclysm that happened since then, Mesmer and Ranger has seen their superpowers diminished.
    Mesmer lost a little of their burgeoning mobility options (jaunt) and had their condi builds shaved.
    Ranger lost a large part of their range advantage when giant furry cats appeared on the lands.
    Both are still extremely versatile though with a multitude of effective builds and have rightfully kept their places in the top half of the poll.

    With the slight waning of their powers, two other classes have rose to prominence to stand shoulder to shoulder with them.
    Under the blessings of the Healing goddess, Engineer has seen a sharp rise in its sustainability, earning it a spot among the upper echelons.
    The award for best improved class though, goes to the Warrior, having awakened Hulk-like powers.

    And so the Fantastic Four is born.

    After the Fantastic Four comes the Revenant who has remained largely stable throughout the patches, maintaining its 5+ rating and its mid-position spot.
    Perhaps there are some who would argue that they deserve a higher rating because their main weakness, condition builds, have largely been weakened.
    With their natural predators gone, who can stand in the way of a Revenant?

    Thieves on the other hand have plummeted badly, falling from a rating of 4.2 to 5.4.
    Once the Superman of the lands, they have been handed a Kryptonite that have largely sealed their once superhuman powers.
    Things are not helped by the rise of more thief-killing classes.
    Do not think little of them though, for their mobility and versatility in a 1 on 1 fight is still a cut above the rest.

    Elementalist, Guardian and Necro remain rock bottom.
    Cast in stone.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭

    Disapointed in seeing necro so low, my beloved reaper does well in wvw 1v1 as long as I dont get caught by a sneaky sic em burst,but if I can close gap bye bye,so very satisfying lol

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

    I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

    That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

    Lol the necro main is a better thief than thief players as usual lmao. I played thief 4 yrs and I know I'm definitely not great at it. If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes. U can run behind a scrapper or fb unloading on them indefinitely and they just out heal u. I'm sry but these days if ur easlily winning 1v1 with thief than ur either playing noobs,ur a thief master or ur not being honest. I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite. Players that have mained the class for years didnt choose the boring role of decapper and limit themselves to +1 engagements due to it high proficiency in 1v1 lol they know most classes are to much a risk to try 1v1 due to most classes being in favor of winning the fight and if u do manage to win a 1v1 it most likely took too long which is funny thief being a glassy burst spec. It's always great to hear though people that dont play thief often are great at 1v1 with them as always seems the case on the forums lmao

    Who said that I was a necro main? I said it, I use all professions, in fact I use 1 profession 1 day and the next day it will be another in an eternal cycle. There sure are professions that concern me more than other but if I had to choose 1 profession that I enjoy playing more than another it would be mesmer and not necromancer. And because I tend to enjoy mesmer gameplay more than the other professions, I don't comment on mesmers buff/nerf unless it truly break the gameplay of the profession (when I say mesmer, it's core mesmer or at most chrono, just for the 25% movement speed).

    Let's be honest, WvW is filled with average players and the "competant" players that you point out are rare if not inexistant most of the time. Thief isn't nearly as bad as you picture it and it can definitely hold it's own against those specialization you fear.

    NB.: Oh and stop trying to make this a PvP issue, this is a WvW thread where, again, the thief stealth is an incredibly useful tool for "sudden 1v1". Unless you are taken by surprise and 1 shoted in WvW, as a thief you can basically reset the fight whenever you want. And it's not even close to be difficult to do.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:

    @Duckota.4769 said:
    Thief is the worst duelist in the game so I think the original poll says more about the average skill levels of players being polled and not the OPness of said classes.

    I love hearing blatantly false statements like this.

    I love people who dont understand balance trying to call me out. They're literally nothing but decappers and +1s at best in pvp and that extends to wvw. If you get beaten by a thief 1v1 you got extremely outplayed.

    I'm not a good thief, far from it and I mostly like to use every single profession but, in a sudden fight in WvW I have no issue killing easily single foes. The stealth, mobility and, yes, burst help a lot due to the fact that you got the surprise effect, the time to plan your fight, weight your foe, the ability to close gap quickly, a decent burst and, if things goes south, you got the tools to retreat quickly.

    That said, saying that I outplay someone by doing this much would be extremly arrogant, it's more capitalizing on the strenght of the profession than outplaying anyone.

    Lol the necro main is a better thief than thief players as usual lmao. I played thief 4 yrs and I know I'm definitely not great at it. If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes. U can run behind a scrapper or fb unloading on them indefinitely and they just out heal u. I'm sry but these days if ur easlily winning 1v1 with thief than ur either playing noobs,ur a thief master or ur not being honest. I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite. Players that have mained the class for years didnt choose the boring role of decapper and limit themselves to +1 engagements due to it high proficiency in 1v1 lol they know most classes are to much a risk to try 1v1 due to most classes being in favor of winning the fight and if u do manage to win a 1v1 it most likely took too long which is funny thief being a glassy burst spec. It's always great to hear though people that dont play thief often are great at 1v1 with them as always seems the case on the forums lmao

    Who said that I was a necro main? I said it, I use all professions, in fact I use 1 profession 1 day and the next day it will be another in an eternal cycle. There sure are professions that concern me more than other but if I had to choose 1 profession that I enjoy playing more than another it would be mesmer and not necromancer. And because I tend to enjoy mesmer gameplay more than the other professions, I don't comment on mesmers buff/nerf unless it truly break the gameplay of the profession (when I say mesmer, it's core mesmer or at most chrono, just for the 25% movement speed).

    Let's be honest, WvW is filled with average players and the "competant" players that you point out are rare if not inexistant most of the time. Thief isn't nearly as bad as you picture it and it can definitely hold it's own against those specialization you fear.

    NB.: Oh and stop trying to make this a PvP issue, this is a WvW thread where, again, the thief stealth is an incredibly useful tool for "sudden 1v1". Unless you are taken by surprise and 1 shoted in WvW, as a thief you can basically reset the fight whenever you want. And it's not even close to be difficult to do.

    Lol sure.

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 I was actually thinking more of shadow step and steal, both 1200 range instantaneous and both make you respect the thief's ability to control spacing.... although steal kinda falls out of the discussion here ever since it got disintegrated from DD...

    @EremiteAngel.9765 Sure! I haven't done a lot of roaming over the past 2 months due to work, but I ranked them:

    Engineer (Holosmith)
    Mesmer
    Warrior
    Ranger (Soulbeast)
    Thief
    Revenant
    Guardian (DH)
    Elementalist
    Necromancer

    This is strictly spontaneous 1v1s as you said, not overall roaming capabilities. A lot of these are really close, and there isn't a very big difference between places 3 and 8 in my opinion (given they're both running some variant of a meta build and not trying to hard-counter the other), so my perception is based on the absolute best players of each of these that I have come across.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes.

    There you have it, you can disengage as a thief almost any class, so you always have the Option to make it a draw while the other class only has Options "win or lose" if it is not tanky enough. That is a Point making thief stronger because you can avoid fights with equal or better skilled Players. You just Need enough skill to make that pool of "equal or better" Players low enough.

    I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite.

    Kiting should be a Basic ability and not something that only a few can manage. If you Play a build that relys solely on Close range and lose with it while you could just kite then it is IMO simply your own fault of failing and not the class's fault.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Prinzsecond.4863 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes.

    There you have it, you can disengage as a thief almost any class, so you always have the Option to make it a draw while the other class only has Options "win or lose" if it is not tanky enough. That is a Point making thief stronger because you can avoid fights with equal or better skilled Players. You just Need enough skill to make that pool of "equal or better" Players low enough.

    I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite.

    Kiting should be a Basic ability and not something that only a few can manage. If you Play a build that relys solely on Close range and lose with it while you could just kite then it is IMO simply your own fault of failing and not the class's fault.

    Holo and soul beast are not far behind thief interns disengage and let's not forget 1800 range longbow.

  • ProverbsofHell.2307ProverbsofHell.2307 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    @Psycoprophet.8107 I was actually thinking more of shadow step and steal, both 1200 range instantaneous and both make you respect the thief's ability to control spacing.... although steal kinda falls out of the discussion here ever since it got disintegrated from DD...

    @EremiteAngel.9765 Sure! I haven't done a lot of roaming over the past 2 months due to work, but I ranked them:

    Engineer (Holosmith)
    Mesmer
    Warrior
    Ranger (Soulbeast)
    Thief
    Revenant
    Guardian (DH)
    Elementalist
    Necromancer

    This is strictly spontaneous 1v1s as you said, not overall roaming capabilities. A lot of these are really close, and there isn't a very big difference between places 3 and 8 in my opinion (given they're both running some variant of a meta build and not trying to hard-counter the other), so my perception is based on the absolute best players of each of these that I have come across.

    This seems spot on.

  • LucianDK.8615LucianDK.8615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Revenants just got nerfed pretty hard. But heralds need help in pve.

  • I lol that Necro is still bottom tier. Though I certainly agree that objectively it's a bad roamer, I don't think it's a bad 1v1'er. As long as you're not running full glass, a decent Necro is a tough fight for a lot of builds/professions. The only things that really shut it down are good Thieves, Rangers and Mesmers. The three strongest roamers. Everything else will need to be extremely cautious against a decent Necro even if it's an easy class easy to +1.

    For a very long time I had given up roaming with Necro. Some time a few months back (maybe 3 - 5?), I started up again and have been doing so quite frequently since. During that time, I've had very few fights that left me feeling like Necro is weak and I had outplayed someone. Unlike some time ago when most encounters felt like I was fighting an uphill battle, I now most often feel on even ground.

    Sometimes I think Necro is underestimated because decent/good Necros seem to be less common than good insert profession here. And I don't say this because it's my main. It just seems to be a class that most people never take the time to practice with. It lacks the tools to make a good roamer, but if the player has good awareness you can avoid a lot of situations that are hard to recover from. Especially with mounts.

    I suppose the bottom of the list is where it belongs but, I often feel it's stronger than people give it credit for. When you meet a good one you'll see what I mean. I can only think of a handful that I'd consider "good" and each of those players are pretty scary no matter how slow Necro is by design.

    [Blep] [HUNT] [xo] | Necromancer 💀, Ranger 🏹, Warrior 💪, Engineer 🛠️, Revenant ⚔️ | Maguuma | 💎 Legend
    Do you mean what you say? Do you say what you mean ... ♫

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Prinzsecond.4863 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    If thief tries 1v1 a competant holo,soulbeast,warrior/spellbreaker list goes on it will need to disengage or die unless the thief player severely outplayed those classes.

    There you have it, you can disengage as a thief almost any class, so you always have the Option to make it a draw while the other class only has Options "win or lose" if it is not tanky enough. That is a Point making thief stronger because you can avoid fights with equal or better skilled Players. You just Need enough skill to make that pool of "equal or better" Players low enough.

    I use reaper alot in wvw and most thiefs are my dinner except the few that can kite.

    Kiting should be a Basic ability and not something that only a few can manage. If you Play a build that relys solely on Close range and lose with it while you could just kite then it is IMO simply your own fault of failing and not the class's fault.

    Thief not being able win most 1v1 because it can disengage is a rediculous reason. Most classes have ways to disengage these days, maybe not quite as well as thief but great non the less. I can distance myself very far from a opponent on warrior using gs,stampede ranger with gs,bird mesmer dont have to explain,holo or scourge have invisibility and leaps list goes on. Theirs a good reason all rogue archetypes in all games have mobility,low hp/sustain and hit hard. No class should be at a disadvantage vs all or most classes in a fight just because it has mobility,especially when its mobility advantage has been severely lessened by other classes being given increased mobility over last few years. Anyone that believes thief should not be able to 1v1 cuz its mobility is just biased towards the class. So all rangers melee should be garbage cuz its range damage potential? Or warrior sustain taken away cuz it's got good mobility and melee dps? Fb stripped of any dps cuz its self and party sustain potential?holo has everything so what should it lose? People are so biased towards the claseed they play and the ones they dont like fighting lol gets embarressing reading people's reasoning for such lmao

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭

    Necro atleast reaper for me is one of the better roamers in wvw due to warclaw being added. Unless a sic em or DE catch me unaware the fights are usually in my favor. Shroud burst is a real thing and eats people who dont know how to kite fast. Using spec walk off a wall to shroud burst the opposing zerg to tele back on wall is a blast as well. Preemptive wurm and spec walk can make for great juking.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Necro atleast reaper for me is one of the better roamers in wvw due to warclaw being added. Unless a sic em or DE catch me unaware the fights are usually in my favor. Shroud burst is a real thing and eats people who dont know how to kite fast. Using spec walk off a wall to shroud burst the opposing zerg to tele back on wall is a blast as well. Preemptive wurm and spec walk can make for great juking.

    the important point is 'people who dont know'. in roaming you will mostly fight those 'people who dont know' and in larger quantities than 1 wich means other professions then the ones in the list can be better solo roamers for general use. but if i understand correctly the rating here is just about isolated 1 vs 1 among good players on their usual roaming builds.

    read this, become a better player now.

  • EremiteAngel.9765EremiteAngel.9765 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    @Psycoprophet.8107 I was actually thinking more of shadow step and steal, both 1200 range instantaneous and both make you respect the thief's ability to control spacing.... although steal kinda falls out of the discussion here ever since it got disintegrated from DD...

    @EremiteAngel.9765 Sure! I haven't done a lot of roaming over the past 2 months due to work, but I ranked them:

    Engineer (Holosmith)
    Mesmer
    Warrior
    Ranger (Soulbeast)
    Thief
    Revenant
    Guardian (DH)
    Elementalist
    Necromancer

    This is strictly spontaneous 1v1s as you said, not overall roaming capabilities. A lot of these are really close, and there isn't a very big difference between places 3 and 8 in my opinion (given they're both running some variant of a meta build and not trying to hard-counter the other), so my perception is based on the absolute best players of each of these that I have come across.

    Very nice list.
    I would largely agree with your ranking.
    Except I'm curious about Ranger's fall in placing.
    As far as I know, Ranger has not really taken any hits throughout the balance patches.
    They are still going at full strength, from Sic-Em LB/GS to Boonbeasts.
    What has changed?
    Are the other classes above them like Holo and Warrior just a lot stronger now?

  • Arcaedus.7290Arcaedus.7290 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @EremiteAngel.9765 said:

    Very nice list.
    I would largely agree with your ranking.
    Except I'm curious about Ranger's fall in placing.
    As far as I know, Ranger has not really taken any hits throughout the balance patches.
    They are still going at full strength, from Sic-Em LB/GS to Boonbeasts.
    What has changed?
    Are the other classes above them like Holo and Warrior just a lot stronger now?

    I actually kinda struggled to place ranger and warrior a bit when thinking about it. On one hand, you have somewhat famous ranger players like Kiritsugu who despite his edited uploads is actually extremely skilled at ranger, and by his account alone, I'd place ranger at #2, mayyyybe even #1 but I have dueled countless no-name warriors (non-warrior mains) who give me and anyone else I watch duel them an incredibly tough time. I reckon if you get a very skilled one who has been playing warrior for years and knows all the classes and builds well, they'd be able to win almost any 1v1.

    Also, I'll say for Sic-Em LB/GS soulbeasts, I can actually win the 1v1 about 95% of the time if they aren't cheesing me with a tower nearby. It's a high damage build but if you know what to do, you drop them. The duelist variant performs better in spontaneous 1v1s, but will lose over time to the more sustain/offence balanced builds (Reaper, DH, Spellbreaker, Mirage, Holosmith) from my experience. You then have straight up pvp-ported boon beast that will force you to retreat, but like scrapper, it can't really kill you if you run. I guess that counts as a loss but I have only ever fought against two of these in wvw since PoF launched.

  • Silinsar.6298Silinsar.6298 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Arcaedus.7290 said:
    @EremiteAngel.9765 I almost want to ask you to include a few more assumptions in your post which would clarify some things for people, but I'm not sure there's a good way to include these without being too wordy:

    1. Victory in a 1v1 means the build is capable of causing the opponent to retreat indefinitely (like retreat to a safe zone, tower, etc. and out of combat), or outright killing them. This means a thief kiting you and maintaining a 1200 distance while coming back in every 10s or so for a burst has not yet lost, nor are they losing.
    2. Going out of combat by itself does not equate to a loss, although if a player is repeatedly doing this, they can't get a kill or drive off the other roamer so it's most likely a loss.
    3. Ability to contest a point doesn't really mean all that much in a spontaneous 1v1. Roamers will generally ignore contestable points and instead focus on going for the kill which is why mobility plays such a huge factor.
    4. The power of a roaming class actually should be determined by those god-tier players of that class. This is because those players represent the highest potential of that class, and classes should be judged by what they're capable of, not by how hard it is to reach that skill level.

    All of these are opinion but I'd be happy to argue any "criteria" here from a practical standpoint.

    I agree there needs to be some consensus on how to actually rank the classes. But if you take random fights in WvW and not white room scenarios with a specific location and rule set outcomes will differ a lot. E.g. what range does a fight start with? Is there cover? Water? NPCs? Height differences (ledges)? etc.

    I guess this poll mostly captures a general feeling of what is hard to fight against.

    Especially if you assume point 4. to be true with everyone being god level skilled the determining factor will always be a combination environment and the specific matchup. Every class will have a bad matchup and/or environment that doesn't favor it. You could then say class X has the most favorable matchups in most environments, therefore it's the strongest, but then people would adapt by playing more builds with favorable match ups against that class and it wouldn't be that strong in practice anymore. So as long as a build doesn't have any unfavorable match ups and every class has a build with at least a few favorable match ups (and isn't completely overshaded in every aspect by another one) every class has a place (even if it's just a niche) in roaming.

    SD Engi / Holo roaming videos: https://www.youtube.com/user/algeyr

  • Duckota.4769Duckota.4769 Member ✭✭✭

    Yeah reading a lot of this im starting to see why we cant have nice things lol.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Silinsar.6298 said:
    You could then say class X has the most favorable matchups in most environments, therefore it's the strongest, but then people would adapt by playing more builds with favorable match ups against that class and it wouldn't be that strong in practice anymore.

    Which is why there cant be consensus. Its impossible. Peoples judgement is heavily clouded by what they run. Even trying to create a "generic threat list" doesnt really work. Only the very best roamer that literally run all classes on all builds would be able to truly tell the full story and they dont exist. People always favor something and if that has a counter well thats OP.

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