Can dagger get a flat 15-20% dmg buff please? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Can dagger get a flat 15-20% dmg buff please?

Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

This weapon is very underwhelming in every game mode, the most recent buffs did nothing to change this.

Could you just flat out buff this weapon globally by 20% on every single skill please? I really enjoy the dagger playstyle, especially dagger tempest, but it's far too weak to be fun.

Comments

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    See bug of fire aura is effectually anet views on ele and what dagger eles want look at.

    Dagger main hand needs more def maybe an clear on main hand dagger as well as a real block all. For dmg maybe asking for water 1 to be a real ranged attk would be nice (i like the ideal of throwing ice dagger that blow up on a delay) as well as trying to get earth 1 become a real aoe attk.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭

    ele dagger has got to be one of the weakest weapons in the game. people that still use it effectively have my respect.

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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    I have been playing with dagger a bit lately. I think it should edge more on the condi side, since sword and staff both cover power. Yet condi sword is also the strongest condi build...

    I think dragon claw should inflict 1 sec 1 stack burning per claw. Dragon breath increase the ticks by one within the same cast time. Lightning AA and 2, increase the damage by 10-15%. Earth 1 and 2, increase the bleeding stacks.

  • LazySummer.2568LazySummer.2568 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 11, 2019

    Definitely. In order to fit the theme for eles since game inception, dagger should get a damage buff while also have all its cast time increased to at least 1s and range reduced to 120.

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    I have been playing with dagger a bit lately. I think it should edge more on the condi side, since sword and staff both cover power. Yet condi sword is also the strongest condi build...

    I think dragon claw should inflict 1 sec 1 stack burning per claw. Dragon breath increase the ticks by one within the same cast time. Lightning AA and 2, increase the damage by 10-15%. Earth 1 and 2, increase the bleeding stacks.

    Unironically, sword is ele's strongest condi weapon. Generally all weapons it has are hybrid, except staff which is power only and focus condi only.

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  • Zhaid Zhem.6508Zhaid Zhem.6508 Member ✭✭✭

    Dmg are okai on Fire/air. And on Golem d/d weaver was/is really close to sword/d condi weaver ... but yes, it asks more accuracy, more placement / camera movements... where sword has auto-focus.
    It's earth and water (like all weapons in fact) that have issue. Currently earth #1 #2 #3 deal no dmg, less condi than before patch, so few soft cc ... it's just useless except for "cool" animation and the evade/leap.

  • Rules of dagger
    Fire = power and condi
    Air= power
    Earth prot condi
    Water regen power

    That feels right. But since the game changed since HOT and POF. We should update some new condi in earth tree, give us some torment. If dagger air auto attack got range nerf can we have a slightly faster attack or a 20% damage increase. Water can we have some more chill, since if we are susceptible to chill, let us deal chill also at a decent level.
    I also want are elite Tornado to become a Ferrari so we can drive over opponents. Cause that's what we are doing. Or make it something cool looking like an elemental being. Please also update elite glyph to look better. The elementals look bad and need damage increase.

    I also want "Feel the fires of Balthazar" to come back.... Omg we don't have to be politically correct in game lore politics. Or have him or her say something better like "feel the fires of Rodgort" since that is lore and it still flows nice and can pay tribute to guild wars 1 spells and Homestar Runner.

    Sword Weavers are decent 1v1 vs non POF metas in wvw. Sadly sword still has low packet damage, very small range and is easy to read. Good luck catching holo, mirage, or firebrand if fleeing from battle. You will never catch the others. And chill from Reapers gibs you so hard.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now that the real balance patches for dagger is out (fire aura working right) i can see dagger has gotten better on ele. A few things though transmutation need to have 0 cast time as often you will find aura on you already stopping you from using another aura to get its effect when stun or hard cc in some way. There needs to be a way for daggers to block all dmg not just ranged attk as even a some what tankly build still gets one shot from 1,200+ ranged. Chrun needs to do a lot more dmg for its cast time as well as fire grasp. Water 1 needs somthing more to it as its too much of a pass over skill it would fill a good long ranged attk for ele but offten it is stopped by things in the way so lets it go though or over every thing in the game if you wish to keep it as it is if not make it into a real ranged attk. Dagger main hand needs a condi clear badly.

    Over all ele needs more build in def its a mages i know but it should be able to use its magic to stop attks and not just heal attks after they hit.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Auburner.6945Auburner.6945 Member ✭✭✭

    I believe the buff that Ele needs, and it's similar to that of this thread, is buffing up the healing values to come on par with other classes. That means, Riptide, Cleansing Wave, Aura Transmutation, etc. should get their numbers increased by a specific value to prevent stacking 600+ Healing Power on every build. Also, place in some ways to cleanse conditions through all weapons' skills, why do I have to trait 3 lines with their traits of synergy to cleanse a condition when someone else gets it from a single trait?

    After these buffs, I would look to increase the damage on staff and dagger, or add in useful and actual QoL changes to make them match sword to an extent. Also, a weaver specific change would be to rework the dual attacks that are extremely easy to land.

    Then, buff off-hand weapons for PvP and WvW.

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  • Stallic.2397Stallic.2397 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 15, 2019

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Now that the real balance patches for dagger is out (fire aura working right) i can see dagger has gotten better on ele. A few things though transmutation need to have 0 cast time as often you will find aura on you already stopping you from using another aura to get its effect when stun or hard cc in some way. There needs to be a way for daggers to block all dmg not just ranged attk as even a some what tankly build still gets one shot from 1,200+ ranged. Chrun needs to do a lot more dmg for its cast time as well as fire grasp. Water 1 needs somthing more to it as its too much of a pass over skill it would fill a good long ranged attk for ele but offten it is stopped by things in the way so lets it go though or over every thing in the game if you wish to keep it as it is if not make it into a real ranged attk. Dagger main hand needs a condi clear badly.

    Over all ele needs more build in def its a mages i know but it should be able to use its magic to stop attks and not just heal attks after they hit.

    Barrier should be implemented to core ele. It goes with the class since barrier is very temporary and also affected by healing power, which is a core stat for ele. They should also make arcane shield an aura, and somehow generated by combo's for ele's to use

    Maybe if they make an arcane elite that will happen, where a fifth attunement creates arcane fields that then generate arcane shields/auras.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    D/D Tempest main here for PvP...

    We dont need damage buffs for dagger, it would only return us to the Cele Ele era where we end up getting nuked from viability again.

    Old video from 5 months ago prebuffs but youll see damage is fine but our sustain is not, especially in regards to Stab and dealing with Holos.

    So in short, what dagger needs is basically for Elementalist to have slightly more sustain.

    Dagger puts out mediocre damage but it can be spammed rather effectively.

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  • Shiyo.3578Shiyo.3578 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok then you can buff it in PvE only which is an option they have.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 as Shiyo said, it surely needs PvE buffs. Also, I almost never see ele with MH dagger in sPvP. Even if you can manage to make it work, that does not mean it does. Unless you can demonstrate that a large enough number of ele players can compete using MH dagger to the highest levels in sPvP, then it is not viable.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @otto.5684 said:
    @sephiroth.4217 as Shiyo said, it surely needs PvE buffs. Also, I almost never see ele with MH dagger in sPvP. Even if you can manage to make it work, that does not mean it does. Unless you can demonstrate that a large enough number of ele players can compete using MH dagger to the highest levels in sPvP, then it is not viable.

    Its not an easy weapon to use and its on an even harder class to master... Because of that it will never be viable for PvP due to the nature of other classes and players themselves.
    Its far easier to pick up a ranger with longbow and press sic em > LB2.
    Could also Holo or Warrior and faceplant the keyboard and be more effective than most eles.

    MH dagger holds it own, but only for players who have practiced enough and stuck with it.

    I can understand why MH dagger needs PvE buffs though, its not exactly landing 30k to 90k crits on anything like a SlB could.
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    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I did not want to start a new thread. It will be very disappointing if Anet does not buff dagger MH next patch (at least in PvE).

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Sadly sword a lot better and that weaver only. Its not the raw numbers but the sword ability to place AoE so vs non moving targets it stacks up a lot of dmg fast both condi and power. So dagger that only are one hit for the most part or non pAoE dmg falls off significantly and there a real lack of staying power on dagger unlike sword having both a barrier on its wepon set build in a few reg skills and better evasion skills.

    Dagger needs a condi clear it needs another healing effect it needs a real block (not ranged only block).

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Damage is fine...I just need a little more sustain : a 10-15s CD block or absorb or something else of similar nature

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    Dagger dmg is fine, it could use maybe a small increase in PvE but not 20%. Maybe better coefficients.
    Earth auto needs to be AoE (maybe around the target) and earth#2 needs to provide barrier or be a blast finisher to give it some more combo possibility.

    The main advantage of sword over dagger (in PvP) is the water field (looking at the weapon itself, besides the obvious superior traits from weaver).
    Sword weaver can sustain more due having a water field that it can then blast for heals, increasing its sustain.

    What dagger really needs are core traitlines that can work better.
    If aura heals (from tempest) were in water, even competing with the regen cleanse, core d/d would have an option of running fire/water/arcane to get a good sustain and nice offensive (similar to the fire/arcane/weaver) using fire auras for sustain and cleanse.

    The core traitlines need a major rework to make dagger MH and core ele competitive on any game mode.

  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭

    @LazySummer.2568 said:
    Definitely. In order to fit the theme for eles since game inception, dagger should get a damage buff while also have all its cast time increased to at least 1s and range reduced to 120.

    A dagger should be a quick auto attack weapon for all classes, meanwhile else have 3/4,1/2s casting time for a kitten auto attack while others MH dagger classes have instant cast. It's already slow weapon in comparison with other classes that can MH it.

    And if you want to reduce range to 120, think about it. Eles mobility, swiftness access...
    Swords have 130 range because they have gap closer skills, if you reduce dagger's range, oh boi try to hit something with the auto attack, it better take half of their hp on hit.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I play dagger and I think dmg is OK, but the real problem is when I get targeted by high power/crit enemy, poor defenses mean I quickly have to run, which plobviodly invites the pursuer to chase, its kitten gameplay. A steady stream of protection would help

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  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The damage for dagger is not okay. It is outdpsed by sword in every situation. And all it does is damage.

  • pinguadoido.6581pinguadoido.6581 Member ✭✭
    edited June 25, 2019

    Flat increase of 20% to overall DPS of the profession, as a trade of for it's poor sustainability on full zerk, compared with Necro and Mesmer.

    Edit: make that 30%.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭

    No buffs to Ele weapons will ever be good enough as long as trait lines are still tied to attunements and limited to three.

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  • len.7809len.7809 Member ✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    The damage for dagger is not okay. It is outdpsed by sword in every situation. And all it does is damage.

    totally agree with you, the sword can heal better than dagger, just the fact that riptide is aoe waterfield that can be blasted for extra healing it shades dagger in terms of suvival.

  • I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

    In Fire:
    Dagger 1: Direct Damage
    Sword 1: Direct Damage, Burn
    Dagger 2: Direct Damage, Burn, Cone attack
    Sword 2: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement Skill
    Dagger 3: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement Skill
    Sword 3: Direct Damage, Burn

    Yeah, not much difference there. There's a few other weird tidbits between the weapons, but basically they do the same thing. Except sword does it better.

    If we want to buff dagger main-hand, we'd need to differentiate the weapons more.. And no, making one condi is not the solution, since all that will do is wreck everyone's builds. There are two ways I can think of changing the weapons that won't ruin everyone's build:

    (1): Make one of the weapons self-buffing (might, fury, protection, etc)
    (2): Make one of the weapons debuffing/disabling (weakness, cripple, vulnerability, etc).

    These aren't mutually exclusive, either. If anything, dagger should give boons, so it can help out teammtes on tempest, while the sword should inflict more debuffing and disabling conditions.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 I think there should be two separators between sword and dagger:

    1) sword does higher power damage and dagger has higher condi damage (not currently the case).
    2) sword provides higher sustainability while dagger provides better mobility. Dagger already has a bit better mobility. It just requires more refining.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

    You are looking at the wrong thing.
    Ele weapon identities are based on how they act, not what they do.
    Dagger MH is fast-paced PBAoE (point-blank area of effect attacks), most attacks from dagger MH hit multiple targets in a small area around you (or in a cone, etc)
    Sword is melee cleave, hitting just a few targets (3) in melee cleave range.

    What weapons do (condi, power, cc, heal, etc) is based on attunements and traits.
    Air is CC and burst crits, with traits providing extra buffs (fury, swiftness, superspeed) and extra crit dmg for short periods of time (burst)
    Fire is sustained dmg, with traits giving might and extended burn application
    Earth is sustained defense, with traits providing dmg reduction, protection, stability and some sustained dmg from bleeds
    Water is sustain and cleanse, with traits providing heals and cleanses

    The weapon skills do need some work but not in adding buffs. The buffs should come from synergies in the traitlines! the core traitlines!.
    Adding more stuff to weapon skills will only make current builds more powerfull and add no variety to builds for any game-mode.
    Adding synergy in traitlines would improve build diversity and create more viable builds.
    Example:
    - You can add torment to earth dagger skill 2. This will make it better but will in no way open new possible gameplay.
    - You can add a trait in earth traitline that makes you apply torment when you bleed a foe that is crippled or immobilized. With this you create a nice combo with dagger MH 3-2 and auto-attacks, since the auto quickly apply bleeds and the skill 3 and 2 cripples and immob.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    I'm wondering how sword and dagger are supposed to maintain separate identities if they get buffed to have the same damage. For other classes it isn't as much of an issue to have similar damage, since the weapons have different utilities to them. But Ele... not so much. Just to compare:

    In Fire:
    Dagger 1: Direct Damage
    Sword 1: Direct Damage, Burn
    Dagger 2: Direct Damage, Burn, Cone attack
    Sword 2: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement Skill
    Dagger 3: Direct Damage, Fire Field, Burn, Movement Skill
    Sword 3: Direct Damage, Burn

    Yeah, not much difference there. There's a few other weird tidbits between the weapons, but basically they do the same thing. Except sword does it better.

    If we want to buff dagger main-hand, we'd need to differentiate the weapons more.. And no, making one condi is not the solution, since all that will do is wreck everyone's builds. There are two ways I can think of changing the weapons that won't ruin everyone's build:

    (1): Make one of the weapons self-buffing (might, fury, protection, etc)
    (2): Make one of the weapons debuffing/disabling (weakness, cripple, vulnerability, etc).

    These aren't mutually exclusive, either. If anything, dagger should give boons, so it can help out teammtes on tempest, while the sword should inflict more debuffing and disabling conditions.

    Easy sword is a 1-3 target wepon dagger is an 5 target wepon. That how you fix every thing about dagger make all of the skills 5 target base even the auras.

    Make all sword skill 1-3 target and make all skills on dagger 5 target.

    As well as remove all dmg only effects. Your using fire it should burn.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Blood Red Arachnid.2493Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2019

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    You are looking at the wrong thing.
    Ele weapon identities are based on how they act, not what they do.
    Dagger MH is fast-paced PBAoE (point-blank area of effect attacks), most attacks from dagger MH hit multiple targets in a small area around you (or in a cone, etc)
    Sword is melee cleave, hitting just a few targets (3) in melee cleave range.

    What weapons do (condi, power, cc, heal, etc) is based on attunements and traits.
    Air is CC and burst crits, with traits providing extra buffs (fury, swiftness, superspeed) and extra crit dmg for short periods of time (burst)
    Fire is sustained dmg, with traits giving might and extended burn application
    Earth is sustained defense, with traits providing dmg reduction, protection, stability and some sustained dmg from bleeds
    Water is sustain and cleanse, with traits providing heals and cleanses

    The weapon skills do need some work but not in adding buffs. The buffs should come from synergies in the traitlines! the core traitlines!.
    Adding more stuff to weapon skills will only make current builds more powerfull and add no variety to builds for any game-mode.
    Adding synergy in traitlines would improve build diversity and create more viable builds.
    Example:
    - You can add torment to earth dagger skill 2. This will make it better but will in no way open new possible gameplay.
    - You can add a trait in earth traitline that makes you apply torment when you bleed a foe that is crippled or immobilized. With this you create a nice combo with dagger MH 3-2 and auto-attacks, since the auto quickly apply bleeds and the skill 3 and 2 cripples and immob.

    Your contentions don't make sense.

    First, what a weapon does and how a weapon acts is the same thing.
    Second, "doing damage" and "doing damage in a slightly different shape" is a pretty meaningless distinction. It doesn't show up in benchmarks, and has almost no tactical value in PVE or PVP. It's only the big shapes that mean anything, and 240 range vs. 130 isn't big enough.
    Third, I don't need a primer on how attunements work.
    Fourth, adjusting weapons to be better balanced with each other adds variety to builds. The main thing keeping weapons from use is viability. The more viable weapons you have, the more viable builds you have.
    Fifth, adding traits isn't going to bridge the gap between the two melee weapons while making each one distinct, unless you specifically make traits to do that. In which case, build variety is decreased due to the necessity of having that trait. Also in this case, it begs the question as to why the trait isn't baseline, opening up more buildcraft.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

    The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

    That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    First, what a weapon does and how a weapon acts is the same thing.

    It's not. A weapon (in GW2) and its skills does dmg, buffs, heals, blocks, move you, etc...
    How it does that (fast, instant, or channel... with a chain of skills or spammable attacks) and to how many targets and range is another thing.
    Scepter air auto attack does dmg to a single-target at a fast chained attack at medium range. Staff air auto attack does dmg to up to 3 targets (bouncing) at long range with a slow spammable attack, dagger air auto does dmg to up to 5 targets in a wide arc in front of you with fast spammable attacks. All 3 weapons do the same, just in a different way.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Second, "doing damage" and "doing damage in a slightly different shape" is a pretty meaningless distinction. It doesn't show up in benchmarks, and has almost no tactical value in PVE or PVP. It's only the big shapes that mean anything, and 240 range vs. 130 isn't big enough.

    It makes a HUGE difference to tactical and (by balance) to benchmarks too. Why do you think staff got nerfed on its multi-hits AoE? Because the it hit multiple targets in a large area. Why do you think staff is used in WvW and PvE zergs? Because it hits multiple targets in an area, even if for lower dmg than sword. Why is tempest overloads better for PvE zerg farming than weaver sword dual skills? Area of Effect.
    Area, range, targets, shape... those things matter. And not only for tactics, for balance too.

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    Fifth, adding traits isn't going to bridge the gap between the two melee weapons while making each one distinct, unless you specifically make traits to do that. In which case, build variety is decreased due to the necessity of having that trait. Also in this case, it begs the question as to why the trait isn't baseline, opening up more buildcraft.

    If a weapon gives dmg, condition, buffs, and w/e it will be nerfed. By allowing the ele to specialize in its traitlines you create diversity. You can trait to deal more dmg or give boons, you can trait to be more bunker or more glass-canon. This is where the attunements and attunement lines shine, by giving the ele the opportunity to specialize and be high dps or high healer, or a mix and be a great side noder in PvP... The cost is the specialization... going full dps means you will bring nothing to the group but a high dps... The concept is great, the basis is there, the trait implementation is lacking in some fronts...

  • @lLobo.7960 said:
    It's not. A weapon (in GW2) and its skills does dmg, buffs, heals, blocks, move you, etc...
    How it does that (fast, instant, or channel... with a chain of skills or spammable attacks) and to how many targets and range is another thing.
    Scepter air auto attack does dmg to a single-target at a fast chained attack at medium range. Staff air auto attack does dmg to up to 3 targets (bouncing) at long range with a slow spammable attack, dagger air auto does dmg to up to 5 targets in a wide arc in front of you with fast spammable attacks. All 3 weapons do the same, just in a different way.

    All of that still sounds like what a weapon "does."

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    It makes a HUGE difference to tactical and (by balance) to benchmarks too. Why do you think staff got nerfed on its multi-hits AoE? Because the it hit multiple targets in a large area. Why do you think staff is used in WvW and PvE zergs? Because it hits multiple targets in an area, even if for lower dmg than sword. Why is tempest overloads better for PvE zerg farming than weaver sword dual skills? Area of Effect.
    Area, range, targets, shape... those things matter. And not only for tactics, for balance too.

    We're not comparing staff to sword. We're comparing dagger to sword.

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    If a weapon gives dmg, condition, buffs, and w/e it will be nerfed.

    No it won't.

    @lLobo.7960 said:
    By allowing the ele to specialize in its traitlines you create diversity. You can trait to deal more dmg or give boons, you can trait to be more bunker or more glass-canon. This is where the attunements and attunement lines shine, by giving the ele the opportunity to specialize and be high dps or high healer, or a mix and be a great side noder in PvP... The cost is the specialization... going full dps means you will bring nothing to the group but a high dps... The concept is great, the basis is there, the trait implementation is lacking in some fronts...

    This doesn't expand upon nor contradict what I said.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

    The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

    That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

    I liken this problem to the one that engineers faced with their specialization. We got scrappers as a bulky bruiser, and then we got holosmith as a bulkier and brusie-er spec. We all complained that scrappers were just a weaker holosmith, so scrappers had to be overhauled to become very different. The hammer both inflicts disabling conditions and self-buffs with might, while the sword is more for direct damage.

    For Ele's it isn't exactly the same. Weavers are meant to be high damaging duelists and Tempests are meant to be support specs. It seems pretty cut and dry at first, until you consider two things. First, both specs are melee specs. Just look at the range of overloads and shouts. Second, the mirror match is real. You'll get melee tempests with dagger/x fighting against melee weavers with sword/x, and it isn't the best design if one just outright beats the other. It also isn't the best design if one weapon is meant to be a specialization locked stronger version of another weapon.

    Sword has to be better than dagger on the weaver, but you can make both weapons viable if you make them different enough. So I just copied what happened with Engineers. Make the daggers give boons, make the sword inflict disabling conditions and do more damage.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Not that I want to be mean but dagger and sword having the same "identity" isn't an issue at all since sword is restricted to weaver while you can use dagger with any specialization. The only thing that is really an issue is that dagger is "suppressed" by weaver's dual attunment mechanic due to poor choice of dual skill effects replacing "defensive" options.

    The dagger's dual skills on weaver make dagger build glass canon without the output of a glass canon, while sword retain a certain level of defense with better output.

    That said, we are in this situation because initially players complained that sword needed to do more damage and these damage were just powercreeped to the point that sword now outdo dagger. If dagger see it's damage powercreeped to the point that they outdo sword and thus dagger become "meta", it's obvious that players will asked another layer of powercreep on the sword to make it "meta". In a word, this is a vicious circle in which the community will never be satisfied.

    I liken this problem to the one that engineers faced with their specialization. We got scrappers as a bulky bruiser, and then we got holosmith as a bulkier and brusie-er spec. We all complained that scrappers were just a weaker holosmith, so scrappers had to be overhauled to become very different. The hammer both inflicts disabling conditions and self-buffs with might, while the sword is more for direct damage.

    For Ele's it isn't exactly the same. Weavers are meant to be high damaging duelists and Tempests are meant to be support specs. It seems pretty cut and dry at first, until you consider two things. First, both specs are melee specs. Just look at the range of overloads and shouts. Second, the mirror match is real. You'll get melee tempests with dagger/x fighting against melee weavers with sword/x, and it isn't the best design if one just outright beats the other. It also isn't the best design if one weapon is meant to be a specialization locked stronger version of another weapon.

    Sword has to be better than dagger on the weaver, but you can make both weapons viable if you make them different enough. So I just copied what happened with Engineers. Make the daggers give boons, make the sword inflict disabling conditions and do more damage.

    At the end of the day can you go melee glass as an weaver or even a core ele? Can you use a dagger and land hits with out getting one shot? That the problem dagger is only of worth though bunker and bunker alone because of just how low ele hp/ def is. Barrier is not enofe (as dagger dose not give you barrier like sword) nor is better protection. There are ranged classes who are far more tankly though both hp / def and effects taking 0 dmg to name one with OUT a wepon lock (ranger).

    Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • lLobo.7960lLobo.7960 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

    You are confusing things.
    Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.
    What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

    In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

    What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.
    Its a way to get in, burst and run.
    The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

    IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.
    If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

    You are confusing things.
    Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.
    What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

    In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

    What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.
    Its a way to get in, burst and run.
    The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

    IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.
    If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

    @lLobo.7960 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    Dagger and over all melee ele is a joke and it show just how bad anet has failed at this class as they tried to added in 2 melee version of ele and did not give it any real melee saying power. There been no reworks at all for these know problems and lack of balancing. There been no communication to the ele players about ANY of this. We can only conclude that ele is a DEAD class.

    You are confusing things.
    Ele, with dagger or sword has a lot of staying power. That is why it can be such a nice duelist and side noder in PvP.
    What ele doesn't have is ways to be a burst +1 like a rev, thief, or ranger. Ele does have dmg, but to achieve it has to be full paper and abandon its defenses and buffs. Therefore in PvP is mostly suicide and not viable.

    In PvE, due to the different way things work, ele can let defenses, control and buffs be done by others, focusing only on high dmg weapon skills, utilities and rotation and achieving high dps.

    What ele needs in PvP is not more staying power. Is more ways to deliver its burst at the cost of the current staying power it has.
    Its a way to get in, burst and run.
    The FA weaver tries to do that, and its very decent at it. It just gets overshadowed by how insane OP some other options are (SB with unblockable instant burst from 1500, Holos with much better mobility and high AoE cc combined with its burst, revs with lots of evades and crazy mobility combined with very high dps).

    IMO, the way to improve burst ele in PvP without making ele completely broken in PvE or ruining the current side-node brawlers ability is to improve on unused traits and synergies.
    If you just give weapons a flat dmg increase, the current bunker builds will still be superior as they will have the same dmg increase but while also having better defenses.

    Staff has more staying power then dagger dose. Sword for sure because it get barriers on its skill beyond just simply using dule skill. A lot of ppl are calling sword an op wepon becuse of it. Dagger has nothing like this an evasion is no means a staying power effect.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • kornfanxxx.9143kornfanxxx.9143 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

    The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

    Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

    Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

    D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

    It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

    But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

    Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

    With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

    Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

    This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

    Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

    The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

    Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

    Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

    D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

    It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

    But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

    Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

    With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

    Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

    This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

    Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

    I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 4, 2019

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

    The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

    Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

    Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

    D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

    It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

    But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

    Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

    With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

    Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

    This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

    Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

    I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

    When you have classes who dont need to run melee all the time can out dmg and out tank a d/d any thing ele that must be melee only i think there something wrong with this game.

    Till d/d any thing ele can hit like a war and tank like a war it will be a way under power class set up.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • kornfanxxx.9143kornfanxxx.9143 Member ✭✭✭

    @vesica tempestas.1563 said:

    @kornfanxxx.9143 said:
    I'm probably going to be trying to talk to a bunch of concrete blocks for all the good this post will do, but I get a bit triggered when people call d/x weaver bad. I argue its not the weapon set thats bad, but rather the set currently interacts with weavers bottom tier health pool/armor rating and traitlines not to mention the current stat choices available (this is more pointed at pvp than wvw)

    The weaponset has developed an interesting theme of almost exclusive cone & PbAOE damage/CC abilities in its kit. It's ability to produce, or arguably even spam reliable (sometimes unblockable) CC and deal surprisingly high damage in a circular radius around the player. It's also seen several changes providing with them 5 different I-frames just within the weapon set itself, 7 including ToF.

    Add into the equation that Anet has added reliable stackable damage reduction modifiers to certain skills, (Weave self, Grinding Stones, Frost aura, Protection) and you have a build that has excellent staying power in the thick of a team fight & impressive offensive presence in its burst rotations and amount as well as consistency of its CC. Not even mentioning the plethora of blast finisher access & moderate group support via heals & condi clear if one is using water traitline.

    Most everyone here knows I gush about celestial d/d unravel weaver (WvW Mainly) enough to annoy even myself but it's a very fast build that is by far one of the most complicated, yet stimulating & rewarding builds i've ever had the pleasure of playing. It has its upsides and yes, it does have its flaws.

    D/D (especially if used with unravel & primordial stance) is somewhat reliant on its hybrid style damage which can be lackluster if your build relies on might which is very vulnerable to being stripped, or your opponents condition clear game is on point and they can clear fast enough to trivialise your condition damage.

    It's also very complicated, using unravel wisely will win a fight, whereas careless use will lock you into an attunement with a row of cooldowns you forgot you used, leaving you vulnerable.

    But really the scenarios I describe tells mainly the story of a d/d weaver in WvW, Where I can abuse the celestial stat to its fullest potential.

    Spvp is sadly a different story right now: Celestial amulets in Spvp right now are a watered down version of what they were, equaling in total stat allocation what all of the four stat amulets currently provide in total stats, previously this was not the case & celestial amulets provided about 12% more total stat points than 4 stat gear, and about 26% more stats than 3 stat gear, also factoring in all of the rune & sigil changes and offensive/defensive power creep of other classes, the amulet in current form doesn't have enough offensive stat allocation to provide reasonable damage output, even with high might output (Which is also much harder to reliably achieve in spvp) you just cant get your power & condition damage numbers high enough to be dangerous.

    With that in mind your forced to choose a 4 stat amulet to bring your offensive stat points up, this is where some of the bigger issues with core ele itself start to present themselves, having bottom tier health pools & light armor rating means your forced to supplement those stat points one way or another with either amulet choice or runes. Now once you've decided how to supplement those inherent weaknesses you have to deal just because your an ele, your now trying to fit together a build with enough offensive juice to reliably down players in short order, but Spvp's amulet & rune system unfortunately in its current form does not offer enough stat point allocation to provide elementalist with enough stat points to cover the glaring armor rating & health pool weakness AND provide enough offensive stat points to end fights. It's not nearly as prevalent an issue in WvW, where you can introduce far more stat points into a build.

    Obviously anet wont change amulet stat allocation or rune stats to accommodate weavers, so another approach must be made, where your gonna have to introduce active sustain via invulnerability/blocks or I-frames (they're already obviously pushing this method with d/d adding i-frames to earth/earth 3), or you introduce more stat points into the build by increasing availability of might access, or flat out giving a bonus stat amount passively or with conditions.

    This isn't even considering my thoughts on the traitlines as they stand, or my specific thoughts on the weapons ele has access to, thats for another thread one day.

    Sorry for any typos its 3 am and i just wanted to fit my novel in before bed.

    I play d/d Weaver exclusively as I enjoy the game style (without unravel) and I agree with pretty much everything here. For me in spvp I play sage, and it feels maybe 400 toughness and another hundred heal away from a good place (also ignoring useless traits etc)

    I also have been using sage alot myself recently, combined with elements of rage, thief runes, and superior elements i can hit approx 50% crit chance w/ fury, and 65-70% w/ fury+weakness on my opponent. It works pretty well in spvp, with no really well defined role other than that of a team fighter. and not much of a roamer, it can hold a point relatively well 1v1 and 1vX, depending on map & node size ensuring your aoe's punish those trying to keep the node contested. But its not a clear cut defined "job" holder like sword/dagger and its side node bunker niche.

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