The Swipe Change Is Lazy Development — Guild Wars 2 Forums

The Swipe Change Is Lazy Development

omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

As a developer myself doing both web development and UX/UI I have to think about trade offs everyday. Does changing this benefit the overall experience? How will this impact the overall experience? Is this change a band aid solution or a positive change? What negative ramifications can this change have? I feel none of these questions were asked when deciding to change Swipe to what it is.

Does this change benefit the overall experience?
No it does not. Thieves lost half the range on steal for what? A more or less useless unblockable with nothing else added to help us actually meet the ideal that Daredevil is a "brawler". We also lost D/P as a decent build.

How will this impact the overall experience?
Thieves lost a build to gain really nothing. S/D didn't get better. S/P is usable, but those builds both use all core thief traits so daredevil is honestly just worse. Deadeye at least FULLY was built to meet the ideal of a sniper. Ranged steal that keeps you at range, and its own set of skills that fit that play style that was envisioned.

Is this change a bandaid solution or positive change?
This was clearly a bandaid fix that was added quickly to add a "tradeoff" to DD that probably should have had more time in development and on the drawing table. It is crazy to see the smart ideas used on deadeye(mentioned above) not carried over to daredevil to help succeed at meeting the brawler idea.

What negative ramifications could this change have?
D/P suffered and nothing was gained. Which means there were more negative ramifications than positive(none). I get that the goal was to add a tradeoff but gimping a build that was the only build to heavily use DD besides the gimmick staff build leaving thieves with a build that uses core specs is silly to say the least.

The change I could stomach if more was done to actually follow through on the ideals stated in the patch notes. To make daredevil more of a brawler, but it didn't. So no point making a post without suggestions.

1) Think of something other than unblockable. Give DD a knockdown, a stun, something more brawler oriented. It doesn't even have to be a teleport.
2) Give swipe a subset of skills that help DD fit the ideal of a brawler.
3) When making a change to a spec fully look at what it might affect. What builds use this, how will this change affect them, and will they need compensation.
4) I like the idea of repeater and I would like to see that followed through on more weapon sets.

Comments

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    We all may just wish they will do something normal tomorow. But the hope is small. Many thieves have already rerolled. And this would need hell of a real update that would fix this kitten. I tried to give ideas as well nobody ever listens and the white knights of protecc will always come down on my posts to say it is dumb. So all that remains is to hope guys. Stay strong Thief isnt strong but we are strongheaded enough to play it. So stay strong

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    it is not that bad and the unblockable is actually very useful

  • Zexanima.7851Zexanima.7851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    it is not that bad and the unblockable is actually very useful

    It's not all that good either. The unblockable is ok but being required to be within 600 range greatly increases the risk you have to take to land it. 600 units of range is far more valuable than unblockable.

    No longer playing the game due to PvP being abandon.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 13, 2019

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    it is not that bad and the unblockable is actually very useful

    Yeah it definitely is when u take last few yrs into account. Last patch just added to the pile. Uve got great player like sind mentioning in his vids not being able to burst anyone down outside of +1's and commenting on the crazy burst of other classes ie rev etc. If such a hardcore player cant burst most classes down while maining the class with the least sustain that points to the balance in this game being way off. Whether other classes need toned down in burst and sustain or thief is brought up either way somthing needs to happen for the class. Honestly the community needs to quit whining about everything and be able to tell the difference between annoyance and op. Some things are designed to be annoying and need to succeed at that to be effective,making less annoying just just makes it ineffective at what its designed to do. Changing the design of thief from ground up is the only way to make a class like thief remain effective while removing it's annoying nature. It's ok for a spellbreaker or a fb etc to walk a half mile to thier camp entrance with 4 people unloading on them whole time while they just shrug it off,but thiefs OP cuz DS and sb5 lmao. And before people start saying that core thief is doing well in conquest and throwing their rating around with a good team any ok thief can use sb5 and good map awareness to do its job as a runner decapper and win matches and get goot ratings. Theres other classes that do +1 better now like rev. Their should be more to a class than running and decapping between three specs,real fun job. Weird thiefs would want a spec good at actually fighting in a mmo with good fighting mechanics lmao. Not to mention theres more to the game than conquest. Thief doesnt add anything but strait dps to any group pve,fun times. Hows DD the brawler spec doing against other 1v1 specs in wvw? Seriously barely see theives other than odd one these days,must be so OP people dont play it cuz it's to easy lol.

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Its depressing to think how long thief will be left in its current joke of a state.

    There is hope that maybe some complaints will be addressed tomorrow. I do find it disheartening that despite the massive amounts of feedback that we weren't even at least acknowledged that we have been heard. Most of the posts after the patch have been very constructive and have given a ton of good ideas. That is actually more depressing.

    Nothing wrong with being positive so dont get me wrong but I doubt anything will be addressed and it's more likely nothing will be changed with thief and if so probably be in the form of more nerfs presented as buffs.

    So many classes do what it can do better or pretty close to the same mobility while being a better overall fit for their team.

    This is my perspective also, and I have pointed out those with comparable mobility and better kits, but there is too much denial in the community.

    I doubt anything will change.

    I play the game for thief and competitive game modes, but I notice neither of those sections have received developer interaction outside of a bug acknowledgement.

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Jack Redline.5379Jack Redline.5379 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

    bro pass me the sunglasses pls your armor shines too bright

  • hey guys just here to say that dragonhunter is supposed to be a spec in this game too. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Philkafou.7481 said:
    hey guys just here to say that dragonhunter is supposed to be a spec in this game too. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    I agree as well, lb needs love

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

    Unless you're on EU. You lyin.

  • Markri.9475Markri.9475 Member ✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

    if you havent played in 5 months, then last you played the swipe change hadn't even happened yet.
    also ; scrapper and berserkers also hadn't had their changes.

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

    Unless you're on EU. You lyin.

    I'm on EU

    @Markri.9475 said:
    if you havent played in 5 months, then last you played the swipe change hadn't even happened yet.
    also ; scrapper and berserkers also hadn't had their changes.

    I'm talking about this season, I formulated the sentence wrong mbmb

  • @omgdracula.6345 said:
    As a developer myself doing both web development and UX/UI I have to think about trade offs everyday. Does changing this benefit the overall experience? How will this impact the overall experience? Is this change a band aid solution or a positive change? What negative ramifications can this change have? I feel none of these questions were asked when deciding to change Swipe to what it is.

    Does this change benefit the overall experience?
    No it does not. Thieves lost half the range on steal for what? A more or less useless unblockable with nothing else added to help us actually meet the ideal that Daredevil is a "brawler". We also lost D/P as a decent build.

    How will this impact the overall experience?
    Thieves lost a build to gain really nothing. S/D didn't get better. S/P is usable, but those builds both use all core thief traits so daredevil is honestly just worse. Deadeye at least FULLY was built to meet the ideal of a sniper. Ranged steal that keeps you at range, and its own set of skills that fit that play style that was envisioned.

    Is this change a bandaid solution or positive change?
    This was clearly a bandaid fix that was added quickly to add a "tradeoff" to DD that probably should have had more time in development and on the drawing table. It is crazy to see the smart ideas used on deadeye(mentioned above) not carried over to daredevil to help succeed at meeting the brawler idea.

    What negative ramifications could this change have?
    D/P suffered and nothing was gained. Which means there were more negative ramifications than positive(none). I get that the goal was to add a tradeoff but gimping a build that was the only build to heavily use DD besides the gimmick staff build leaving thieves with a build that uses core specs is silly to say the least.

    The change I could stomach if more was done to actually follow through on the ideals stated in the patch notes. To make daredevil more of a brawler, but it didn't. So no point making a post without suggestions.

    1) Think of something other than unblockable. Give DD a knockdown, a stun, something more brawler oriented. It doesn't even have to be a teleport.
    2) Give swipe a subset of skills that help DD fit the ideal of a brawler.
    3) When making a change to a spec fully look at what it might affect. What builds use this, how will this change affect them, and will they need compensation.
    4) I like the idea of repeater and I would like to see that followed through on more weapon sets.

    Just a short notification to say that all changes that occur on the last patch on all classes were quick changes to has been delivered as "big changes"

    All changes were "lazy" in the fact that it was just a "steal the animation from that skill and apply on that new gimmick skill" or in other cases "let's add a new thing onto that skill" (such as swipe)

    ELE dagger main hand : old animation from earth overlord and orbital strike from engi were used .
    Warrior F1 : basically a GS 2 from guard with more particles effect

    The rest are just modification on what the skill does and not what the skill look like so yeah basically these changes were pretty basics and "quickly made"

    Be lazy but be smart (as I'm used to say in my language)

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    1) Think of something other than unblockable. Give DD a knockdown, a stun, something more brawler oriented. It doesn't even have to be a teleport.

    DrD has two stuns/knockdowns on its utility skills...

    2) Give swipe a subset of skills that help DD fit the ideal of a brawler.

    ...and even a block.

    3) When making a change to a spec fully look at what it might affect. What builds use this, how will this change affect them, and will they need compensation.

    DrD has been a straight buff to core (they even had to hardnerf acrobatics that things don't end up completely ridiculous). The aim was a tradeoff and not a mix of nerfs and compensations.

    Daredevil is fine with several weaponsets - the hit and run potential is still huge for that amount of blocks, evades and endurance regeneration. The unblockable effect on swipe results in dagger storm being a no brainer as the preferred choice for the eilite skill. This can be considered as a "compensation" for the range nerf as that elite skill is simply overpowered.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    U play much thief? Or u a necro making claims on a class u know little about?
    Anyone who plays thief or knows anything about the class knows DD was never a upgrade from core as its basically a sum of needing acrobatics and taking a trait from it and extending it into a new elite spec. Core has always been prefered meta build due to it being superior at +1 and decapping role as neither specs were good for 1v1. With that said sure DD was slightly better at 1v1's than core but being as bad as core was for 1v1 that's no feat and surely sisnt make DD a food 1v1, was just beat it had at the time. The thiefs class as a whole need its non cheesey/gimmicky bursts buffed badly for it to to be viable at anything other than decapping and disengaging. The range nerf on steal would have been better accepted if arenet went far enough with that trait changes to actually make DD a viable brawler,which I suspect is not what u really want seeing as how warclaw saved ur wvw experience from all us horrible gankers lmao.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    1) Think of something other than unblockable. Give DD a knockdown, a stun, something more brawler oriented. It doesn't even have to be a teleport.

    DrD has two stuns/knockdowns on its utility skills...

    Think OP meant function of Swipe in this point and not utility skills.

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    2) Give swipe a subset of skills that help DD fit the ideal of a brawler.

    ...and even a block.

    Think OP meant stolen Skills of Swipe in this point and not utility skills.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alatar.7364 said:

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    1) Think of something other than unblockable. Give DD a knockdown, a stun, something more brawler oriented. It doesn't even have to be a teleport.

    DrD has two stuns/knockdowns on its utility skills...

    Think OP meant function of Swipe in this point and not utility skills.

    @KrHome.1920 said:

    2) Give swipe a subset of skills that help DD fit the ideal of a brawler.

    ...and even a block.

    Think OP meant stolen Skills of Swipe in this point and not utility skills.

    Correct. I know DrD has those options but be honest. You will never take any of those over signets or shadow step, roll etc. Everything I stated is in relation to swipe functionality as Alatar pointed out.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    I think it would be cool if something else other than swipe was given.

    Like f1 activates "daredevil mode" and your weapon bar is replaced with a bunch of stuff that allows you to stay in the fight...temporarily.

    I mean we lost 600 units, whats another 600 lol

    If the skills were done well and made DD a viable brawler this would be sweet.

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:
    There is hope that maybe some complaints will be addressed tomorrow.

    Well here you go.
    Nuffin

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Surprising no one!

  • Xenji.4907Xenji.4907 Member ✭✭✭

    Love it.... No verbal address... not even a sticky note or something... Sighs..

    What is the point of trying?

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Xenji.4907 said:
    Love it.... No verbal address... not even a sticky note or something... Sighs..

    What is the point of trying?

    Hasn't been a point since ever really

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    Pretty frustrating to be honest.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    Yeah I know. I'm trying to find reasons everyday to just finally uninstall the game. Summers basically here anyway so the gf and i arent inside much in the sumner and I'd like to finally finish witcher 3 lol don't get me wrong thiefs not the only fun class in the game but the disparity between the balance of each class is far beyond a joke at this point. Honestly I have zero words with regards to the balance teams decisions over last few years of the game. All I can say is good luck to them lol to rest of the community just get gud, just dodge and adapt lmao

  • Crab Fear.1624Crab Fear.1624 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kaitori.8564 said:
    im 43-16 at 1844 rating this season, and I haven't played in 5 months, and I only played d/p with assassin signet, maybe it's just a l2p issue at the end of the day

    what is the build?

    ...for research purposes

    Soon™ ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    what is the build?

    ...for research purposes

    https://imgur.com/G8wIUcT

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    @Kaitori.8564 said:

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    what is the build?

    ...for research purposes

    https://imgur.com/G8wIUcT

    No pulm impact? Also what utilities? Heal etc

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 14, 2019

    It's almost as if the balance team hasn't experienced any other games or mmo's that include pvp modes when u try and understand their thinking regarding balance decisions.

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    No pulm impact? Also what utilities? Heal etc

    dd heal, assassin signet, shadow step, agility signet or blinding powder, spin to win, and ye I don't play pulm anymore the dmg is not worth it, that 5% extra dmg per dodge missing is great for sb, or when you're out of dodges and you have to pressure or you die

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaitori.8564 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    No pulm impact? Also what utilities? Heal etc

    dd heal, assassin signet, shadow step, agility signet or blinding powder, spin to win, and ye I don't play pulm anymore the dmg is not worth it, that 5% extra dmg per dodge missing is great for sb, or when you're out of dodges and you have to pressure or you die

    Cool thanks. What is your rotation now when you initiate on someone? I used to do the typical BP -> HS -> Steal + Backstab but don't see that as feasible now with 600 range.

  • Kaitori.8564Kaitori.8564 Member ✭✭

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    Cool thanks. What is your rotation now when you initiate on someone? I used to do the typical BP -> HS -> Steal + Backstab but don't see that as feasible now with 600 range.

    ehh its the same as before, I just get closer lol, or you can use shadow shot and cancel the hit, then backstab steal, as long as you have stealth it's not too difficult to get closer

  • Kageseigi.2150Kageseigi.2150 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    U play much thief? Or u a necro making claims on a class u know little about?

    I doubt he's a Thief. He' the guy who said...

    Staff daredevil is too strong at the moment. It has everything. Gap closers, blocks, evades, aoe, disengages, endurance refilling skills. A staff daredevil can duell any spec in the game for forever due to damage avoidance and disengages + reengages. Thief players who don't agree might try it or if they already did, then eventuelly get good at the game.

    D/P is such a strong utility set (stealth at will, interrupt chains, blinds, unblockable shadowsteps) that it HAS TO BE weak in fighting capability. If you want to be a strong fighting class, then pick a damage weaponcombo and not a utility combo like d/p+sb.

    Yes, the Daredevil is so strong, that it can stalemate anyone indefinitely by running away and coming back. That's such a great benefit in Conquest!

    Heck... you know... the Thief is just too strong because it cannot be killed if it stays in Stealth and hides in the corner all match long! Not only that, but it can even decap a point if there's nobody else there! But if that's not enough, it can actually kill someone if one of its teammates does a lot of damage first!

    ANET!!!! PLZ NERF TEEF!!!!!

  • omgdracula.6345omgdracula.6345 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kaitori.8564 said:

    @omgdracula.6345 said:

    Cool thanks. What is your rotation now when you initiate on someone? I used to do the typical BP -> HS -> Steal + Backstab but don't see that as feasible now with 600 range.

    ehh its the same as before, I just get closer lol, or you can use shadow shot and cancel the hit, then backstab steal, as long as you have stealth it's not too difficult to get closer

    Thanks for all the help! I will give it a go. Though I still retain my opinion these changes were lazy and daredevil should get the deadeye treatment where stealth skills even become something different.

    Change backstab to say a knockdown strike. Something.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They nerfed acro and stole some traits to make DD -lazy
    Used core f1 skill-lazy
    Changed f skill to a worse version of core f1-lazy

    DD f1 coulda been somthing cool like the staff transforming into a guandau for a set duration with a full set of kung fu esq brawler skills. Atleast to somthing unique at least

  • I guess you could try doing something that would certainly get their attention. As thieves seem to rarely be listened to.

  • DragonSlayer.1087DragonSlayer.1087 Member ✭✭✭

    It’s flat out lazy design.

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