I see big "Sic 'Em!" problem - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I see big "Sic 'Em!" problem

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Comments

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Sorry. Agreement ain't gonna happen.

    It's blatantly OP.

    blatantly OP? lol sorry but that agreement aint gonna happen either boi.
    Skill hasnt been changed for years but suddenly it's blatantly OP?

    The skill was changed though...

    It used to be pet specific but now its not, now it effects the Ranger too.

    When was it changed?

    Isnt that obvious by what I posted?

    No it is not. Can you give me month and year?

    When they introduced Soulbeast...
    Merging with the pet for the 40% damage boost didnt exist for the first 4 or so years of the game.

    Soulbeast has been introduced late 2017.
    The 40% dmg boost was introduced in 2013, but before that it has dmg boost too, just it didn't say it is 40%
    2 years no complaints and suddenly some people just want random nerfs.

    @Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
    Since boonbeast variants nerfed with moa stance, rangers been trying out diff builds to be effective... And a few equip zerky jerky builds and embraced longbows in their weapon slots once again... Now ppl who were used to fighting meele setup boonbeast build started encountering sniper builds... Now all they remember when dying is longbow hits or maul hits... and Now they ask for nerfs...

    When's the Last time Ranger buff listed in release notes? 5 or 6 months??? Idk

    I don't remember any significant buffs to ranger after boonbeast moa stance got nerfed ... So it might be players' illusion :p ... Idk I might be wrong

    I dont understand ur confusion. I believe he means from sic em creation up until soulbeast was added it only gave pet 40% damage boost and not ranger. Once soulbeast was added the player was than included in the damage multipliers when merged. Soulbeast is definitely way over tuned along with spellbreaker,fb, and holo. Where were all these ridiculous views on why a class isn't OP when thief and mirage xey's filled the forums lmao oh wait gues theres just more mains in the powercrept classes.

    I am not confused. Soulbeast is here since 2017, now is 2019. There are no posts from 2017 about Sic 'Em nerf even so the skill hasn't changed.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Sorry. Agreement ain't gonna happen.

    It's blatantly OP.

    blatantly OP? lol sorry but that agreement aint gonna happen either boi.
    Skill hasnt been changed for years but suddenly it's blatantly OP?

    The skill was changed though...

    It used to be pet specific but now its not, now it effects the Ranger too.

    When was it changed?

    Isnt that obvious by what I posted?

    No it is not. Can you give me month and year?

    When they introduced Soulbeast...
    Merging with the pet for the 40% damage boost didnt exist for the first 4 or so years of the game.

    Soulbeast has been introduced late 2017.
    The 40% dmg boost was introduced in 2013, but before that it has dmg boost too, just it didn't say it is 40%
    2 years no complaints and suddenly some people just want random nerfs.

    @Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
    Since boonbeast variants nerfed with moa stance, rangers been trying out diff builds to be effective... And a few equip zerky jerky builds and embraced longbows in their weapon slots once again... Now ppl who were used to fighting meele setup boonbeast build started encountering sniper builds... Now all they remember when dying is longbow hits or maul hits... and Now they ask for nerfs...

    When's the Last time Ranger buff listed in release notes? 5 or 6 months??? Idk

    I don't remember any significant buffs to ranger after boonbeast moa stance got nerfed ... So it might be players' illusion :p ... Idk I might be wrong

    I dont understand ur confusion. I believe he means from sic em creation up until soulbeast was added it only gave pet 40% damage boost and not ranger. Once soulbeast was added the player was than included in the damage multipliers when merged. Soulbeast is definitely way over tuned along with spellbreaker,fb, and holo. Where were all these ridiculous views on why a class isn't OP when thief and mirage xey's filled the forums lmao oh wait gues theres just more mains in the powercrept classes.

    I am not confused. Soulbeast is here since 2017, now is 2019. There are no posts from 2017 about Sic 'Em nerf even so the skill hasn't changed.

    I think the point is while the skill itself hasn't changed, the utility the skill provides has changed, specifically with regards to Soulbeast. Imagine if there was a new Mesmer specialization that allowed Mesmer to receive -every single- buff their illusions receive. While some of the old traits may not have been changed, they'd be more powerful for sure.

    Edit: Though I'm not supporting the idea Sic 'Em is overpowered, to be clear.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    Seems like the biggest counter-argument to Soulbeast rarely being in the top tier of play and therefore doesn't need a nerf is we shouldn't balance around the top 10% (Or w/e percentage) of the population. Thing is, I'd argue that for a competitive game mode surely you -should- balance around the top tier of play. You can argue all day long whether GW2 being competitive is a joke of an idea, if you're at least attempting to make a game competitive you should balance a game around the most competitive part of the environment, right? So therefore Soulbeast, at least I'd argue, really doesn't need a nerf.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You don't fix an uncompetitive class by taking the one thing that contributes most to power creep on that class and making it even more overpowered. You fix it by addressing the reasons why it doesn't use anything else.

    Back in the day, the most effective ranger builds didn't use longbow at all.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    You don't fix an uncompetitive class by taking the one thing that contributes most to power creep on that class and making it even more overpowered. You fix it by addressing the reasons why it doesn't use anything else.

    Back in the day, the most effective ranger builds didn't use longbow at all.

    That's because there was an abundance of reflect/projectile destruction so it was next to pointless. However now people want Unstoppable union nerfed aswell, so. vOv I'unno, y'know what, I hope it gets nerfed. If I stand corrected then that's actually a good thing 'cause it means it'll be fine, but what I suspect will happen is Soulbeast will be next to unplayable if other professions don't get shifted aswell, and then hopefully people will be like, "Oh snap, maybe it didn't need a nerf." Or we'll find out who some of the provocateurs in this community are.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    You don't fix an uncompetitive class by taking the one thing that contributes most to power creep on that class and making it even more overpowered. You fix it by addressing the reasons why it doesn't use anything else.

    Back in the day, the most effective ranger builds didn't use longbow at all.

    That's because there was an abundance of reflect/projectile destruction so it was next to pointless. However now people want Unstoppable union nerfed aswell, so. vOv I'unno, y'know what, I hope it gets nerfed. If I stand corrected then that's actually a good thing 'cause it means it'll be fine, but what I suspect will happen is Soulbeast will be next to unplayable if other professions don't get shifted aswell, and then hopefully people will be like, "Oh snap, maybe it didn't need a nerf." Or we'll find out who the provocateurs in this community are.

    There were hardly any reflects in the first couple years before HoT, and most people generally wouldn't slot them. Off the top of my head, there was Feedback on the mesmer, that reflective wall utility on Guardian (I never used that at all, so I can't even remember what it was called), and the magnetic shield on Engineer. Swirling Winds and a couple other skills did projectile destruction without the reflect, and then there were blocks and dodges that weren't exclusive to projectiles.

    The main reason no-one used longbow at launch was because it had a really slow firing rate, and Rapid Fire just made it passable. When Rapid Fire turned into a machine gun is when longbow rangers (usually terrible ones) started appearing all over the place. Long before all the skills that were buffed like crazy to make pets slightly less awful - such as Sic 'Em - started applying to the player too.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    You don't fix an uncompetitive class by taking the one thing that contributes most to power creep on that class and making it even more overpowered. You fix it by addressing the reasons why it doesn't use anything else.

    Back in the day, the most effective ranger builds didn't use longbow at all.

    That's because there was an abundance of reflect/projectile destruction so it was next to pointless. However now people want Unstoppable union nerfed aswell, so. vOv I'unno, y'know what, I hope it gets nerfed. If I stand corrected then that's actually a good thing 'cause it means it'll be fine, but what I suspect will happen is Soulbeast will be next to unplayable if other professions don't get shifted aswell, and then hopefully people will be like, "Oh snap, maybe it didn't need a nerf." Or we'll find out who the provocateurs in this community are.

    There were hardly any reflects in the first couple years before HoT, and most people generally wouldn't slot them. Off the top of my head, there was Feedback on the mesmer, that reflective wall utility on Guardian (I never used that at all, so I can't even remember what it was called), and the magnetic shield on Engineer. Swirling Winds and a couple other skills did projectile destruction without the reflect, and then there were blocks and dodges that weren't exclusive to projectiles.

    The main reason no-one used longbow at launch was because it had a really slow firing rate, and Rapid Fire just made it passable. When Rapid Fire turned into a machine gun is when longbow rangers (usually terrible ones) started appearing all over the place. Long before all the skills that were buffed like crazy to make pets slightly less awful - such as Sic 'Em - started applying to the player too.

    I can only speak from my experience during HoT, specifically S5/S6 was mainly where I was playing at Plat 3 (And that's genuinely not a brag, plat 3 isn't anything particularly special I don't feel, not in the slightest, there's a big difference between t3 players and t2/1 players. But I'm merely pointing out the fact that I was playing in the bracket of relatively meta-influenced team compositions.)

    DH Wall and their shield 5, Scrapper dome, Tempest Focus AoE Projectile destruction and Warrior shield. Druid staff 5 converting projectiles into healing bolts. Alot of these barring Warrior were AoE. Oh, also Reaper Shroud 2. These were the main reasons during HoT no one used longbow. And when they did, that was due to a bug caused by signet of the wild I believe that made their attacks unblockable, which meant some people started running longbow on Druid. Again, can't account for anything pre-HoT really.

    Now PoF is a completely different kettle of fish, granted, but I'm seeing similarities in viability here with the longbow. Could well be that's just me lacking foresight. I guess we'll see.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I suspect it was always more of a thing in more casual PvP and in WvW, where there was actually some point to taking a spec that could down an unsuspecting opponent from 1500 range. In ranked PvP, "unsuspecting" is not all that likely.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    I suspect it was always more of a thing in more casual PvP and in WvW, where there was actually some point to taking a spec that could down an unsuspecting opponent from 1500 range. In ranked PvP, "unsuspecting" is not all that likely.

    For sure, completely agree with you, was never that keen on it myself to be fair. But I can't argue it had its uses, albeit niche. With Soulbeast I feel it's less niche and more part of what makes it viable. While it can completely burst down an unsuspecting player, and that may seem unfair, but that's true for alot of classes and combos if people don't fully pay attention, or sometimes you're just out of cooldowns and that's unfortunate. If they nerf sic 'em and Unstoppable Union they're gonna' have to give ranger a load more options in other areas. At least that's my take.

    Edit: A nerf I could get more behind on a small level is maybe nerf the mobility of Soulbeast a lil'. Shorter range on the greatsword leap and the soulbeast ability dashes. Perhaps people will be less annoyed by the pewpewyness if he can't be around everywhere doing it, or follow up a rapid fire combo immediately by closing the gap in one skill.

  • Ben K.6238Ben K.6238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think that'd be a fair trade, honestly. There's more than a few other skills on ranger that could do with some retooling and likewise with the other weapons.

  • Shao.7236Shao.7236 Member ✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    When I read comments like this last statement my faith in the community dies a little more lmao

    I love such arguments. They are so productive :)

    Well it's not like you're getting the point here either so that's just as worst for your case. Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand? They can keep the pet damage bonus if they want, the ranger however needs to get nerfed under the effects. 20% would still be plenty and still the most easily accessed damage modifier in the game.

    Before they remove unstoppable union unblockable they should nerf the root cause of this broken damage.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    I think that'd be a fair trade, honestly. There's more than a few other skills on ranger that could do with some retooling and likewise with the other weapons.

    ^ and that's it right there I think. Retooling, 100% agree. Getting other aspects in line together with maybe reducing the current things that make it seem overpowered is the better way to do it. But the majority of people and threads I see aren't asking for reavulation of skills, just flat out make soulbeast less powerful. Which obviously isn't the way to go.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand?

    Soulbeast is here since 2017, now is 2019. Why now?
    Soulbeast cant offer competitive PvP gameplay as it is too weak and easy to deal with, why nerf?

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • kin korn karn.9023kin korn karn.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    When I read comments like this last statement my faith in the community dies a little more lmao

    I love such arguments. They are so productive :)

    Well it's not like you're getting the point here either so that's just as worst for your case. Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand? They can keep the pet damage bonus if they want, the ranger however needs to get nerfed under the effects. 20% would still be plenty and still the most easily accessed damage modifier in the game.

    Before they remove unstoppable union unblockable they should nerf the root cause of this broken damage.

    I think he's not talking so much about pre-PoF, but more about how Sic Em has worked like this for nearly two years, so what's changed to make it suddenly relevant? The answer being that while it was never a great build to begin with (and still isn't), it has now become the most viable and most played ranger build since Boon Beast was gutted.

  • kin korn karn.9023kin korn karn.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    When I read comments like this last statement my faith in the community dies a little more lmao

    I love such arguments. They are so productive :)

    Well it's not like you're getting the point here either so that's just as worst for your case. Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand? They can keep the pet damage bonus if they want, the ranger however needs to get nerfed under the effects. 20% would still be plenty and still the most easily accessed damage modifier in the game.

    Before they remove unstoppable union unblockable they should nerf the root cause of this broken damage.

    I think he's not talking so much about pre-PoF, but more about how Sic Em has worked like this for nearly two years, so what's changed to make it suddenly relevant? The answer being that while it was never a great build to begin with (and still isn't), it has now become the most viable and most played ranger build since Boon Beast was gutted.

    To play devil's advocate, seems like what people are saying in response to this is there were other, more broken professions and specs that people were far more invested in getting nerfed that they didn't even consider Soulbeast needing the nerf in light of all the other 'broken' professions. While I don't agree, you can at least understand the point they're making from their perspective. They were gonna' complain about Soulbeast from the get-go, there were just more pressing things to complain about.

    I get that argument and think there's some truth to it. But people complained about Soulbeast before, it was just a different build, and one that was (probably) actually overperforming. LB/GS Soulbeast still isn't overperforming, and there are at least four other builds I'd say need a nerf well before Soulbeast needs another.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    When I read comments like this last statement my faith in the community dies a little more lmao

    I love such arguments. They are so productive :)

    Well it's not like you're getting the point here either so that's just as worst for your case. Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand? They can keep the pet damage bonus if they want, the ranger however needs to get nerfed under the effects. 20% would still be plenty and still the most easily accessed damage modifier in the game.

    Before they remove unstoppable union unblockable they should nerf the root cause of this broken damage.

    I think he's not talking so much about pre-PoF, but more about how Sic Em has worked like this for nearly two years, so what's changed to make it suddenly relevant? The answer being that while it was never a great build to begin with (and still isn't), it has now become the most viable and most played ranger build since Boon Beast was gutted.

    To play devil's advocate, seems like what people are saying in response to this is there were other, more broken professions and specs that people were far more invested in getting nerfed that they didn't even consider Soulbeast needing the nerf in light of all the other 'broken' professions. While I don't agree, you can at least understand the point they're making from their perspective. They were gonna' complain about Soulbeast from the get-go, there were just more pressing things to complain about.

    I get that argument and think there's some truth to it. But people complained about Soulbeast before, it was just a different build, and one that was (probably) actually overperforming. LB/GS Soulbeast still isn't overperforming, and there are at least four other builds I'd say need a nerf well before Soulbeast needs another.

    In fact, Sic 'Em needs a buff.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    Soulbeast can't offer competetive 1vs1 or XvsX gameplay and noone prefer it in higher ranks.
    How do you think nerfing Sic 'Em will help SB to get in competitive matches? I mean, isn't this the goal, all professions to offer competitive gameplay? By nerfing it you will do quite the opposite.
    Someone said that there are stronger professions for higher PvP matches and they are right but you are saying that everyone were blind 2 years because there were stronger skills in the game. And now you are saying that Sic 'Em is one of the strongest skills out there and we should concentrate on nerfing it, even so we all agree that this skill can't find a place in good competitive PvP matches (I mean we don't have to agree, because this is not an opinion but fact which you can see in the top ranks, by yourself).
    Sic 'Em needs small buff in order to bring SB in good competitive matches.

    When I read comments like this last statement my faith in the community dies a little more lmao

    I love such arguments. They are so productive :)

    Well it's not like you're getting the point here either so that's just as worst for your case. Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand? They can keep the pet damage bonus if they want, the ranger however needs to get nerfed under the effects. 20% would still be plenty and still the most easily accessed damage modifier in the game.

    Before they remove unstoppable union unblockable they should nerf the root cause of this broken damage.

    I think he's not talking so much about pre-PoF, but more about how Sic Em has worked like this for nearly two years, so what's changed to make it suddenly relevant? The answer being that while it was never a great build to begin with (and still isn't), it has now become the most viable and most played ranger build since Boon Beast was gutted.

    To play devil's advocate, seems like what people are saying in response to this is there were other, more broken professions and specs that people were far more invested in getting nerfed that they didn't even consider Soulbeast needing the nerf in light of all the other 'broken' professions. While I don't agree, you can at least understand the point they're making from their perspective. They were gonna' complain about Soulbeast from the get-go, there were just more pressing things to complain about.

    I get that argument and think there's some truth to it. But people complained about Soulbeast before, it was just a different build, and one that was (probably) actually overperforming. LB/GS Soulbeast still isn't overperforming, and there are at least four other builds I'd say need a nerf well before Soulbeast needs another.

    For sure. I've been thinking about why people seem so upset with Soulbeast right now, when I think most people could agree the likes of Scrapper are absolutely obnoxious right now. Maybe not broken, but certainly over-performing. (Not that I'm saying it should be nerfed, I'unno wth it would need to lose but still have enough to be viable.)

    I'm GUESSING it's that people like playing the game, so as such they don't really like dying. Who knew.

    So when they get a Sic em soulbeast deleting them from the game without using much skill, it's a crappy scenario, and they feel like they're not getting to play the game and that there's no counterplay. But when they're going against the scrapper for example, sure they find it ridiculous but they're still getting to play or feeling productive. Now what I'm about to say next I'm sure is going to aggravate alot of people, and sincerely my bad if that's the case, but this is what I'm -perceiving-.

    This is what the mid to lower tier bracket are annoyed with, whereas the higher tiered players aren't complaining as much about Soulbeast because they do feel there is counterplay and skill involved in playing against/with a Soulbeast. Going against a Scrapper that takes far too long a time for it to be a reasonable tactical kill without investing too many people or resources while the Scrapper can facetank a bunch of skills without dodging or spacing and still be ridiculously survivable, that's what they consider not being able to play the game properly. That's my two cents, or two more cents anyway, which I've thrown around plenty over this whole soulbeast debate.

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    Sorry. Agreement ain't gonna happen.

    It's blatantly OP.

    blatantly OP? lol sorry but that agreement aint gonna happen either boi.
    Skill hasnt been changed for years but suddenly it's blatantly OP?

    The skill was changed though...

    It used to be pet specific but now its not, now it effects the Ranger too.

    When was it changed?

    Isnt that obvious by what I posted?

    No it is not. Can you give me month and year?

    When they introduced Soulbeast...
    Merging with the pet for the 40% damage boost didnt exist for the first 4 or so years of the game.

    Soulbeast has been introduced late 2017.
    The 40% dmg boost was introduced in 2013, but before that it has dmg boost too, just it didn't say it is 40%
    2 years no complaints and suddenly some people just want random nerfs.

    @Crystal Paladin.3871 said:
    Since boonbeast variants nerfed with moa stance, rangers been trying out diff builds to be effective... And a few equip zerky jerky builds and embraced longbows in their weapon slots once again... Now ppl who were used to fighting meele setup boonbeast build started encountering sniper builds... Now all they remember when dying is longbow hits or maul hits... and Now they ask for nerfs...

    When's the Last time Ranger buff listed in release notes? 5 or 6 months??? Idk

    I don't remember any significant buffs to ranger after boonbeast moa stance got nerfed ... So it might be players' illusion :p ... Idk I might be wrong

    I dont understand ur confusion. I believe he means from sic em creation up until soulbeast was added it only gave pet 40% damage boost and not ranger. Once soulbeast was added the player was than included in the damage multipliers when merged. Soulbeast is definitely way over tuned along with spellbreaker,fb, and holo. Where were all these ridiculous views on why a class isn't OP when thief and mirage xey's filled the forums lmao oh wait gues theres just more mains in the powercrept classes.

    I am not confused. Soulbeast is here since 2017, now is 2019. There are no posts from 2017 about Sic 'Em nerf even so the skill hasn't changed.

    As some have already said, SlB basically flew under the nerf radar and has been largely getting a free pass on nerfs to this day because the overwhelming amount of complaints, outrage, and calls for nerfs were directed at other specs such as Scourge, Thief, and Condi Mirage during most of that time. Now that those have been knocked down, remaining powercrept things like Sic 'Em SlB simply stand out more. And the more powercrept things that get adjusted (like Rev recently), the more SlB will rightfully stand out. In other words, Sic 'Em SlB was always busted. It just didn't get proper attention until recently. Simple as that.

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Shao.7236 said:
    Sic em existed before and only affected the pet, it says in the description itself. Pet merging allows this out of whack damage bonus to the ranger which most have paired with unblockables.

    What's so hard to understand?

    Soulbeast is here since 2017, now is 2019. Why now?
    Soulbeast cant offer competitive PvP gameplay as it is too weak and easy to deal with, why nerf?

    I know you're serious, but stuff like this is beginning to sound like a meme.

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    Seems like the biggest counter-argument to Soulbeast rarely being in the top tier of play and therefore doesn't need a nerf is we shouldn't balance around the top 10% (Or w/e percentage) of the population. Thing is, I'd argue that for a competitive game mode surely you -should- balance around the top tier of play. You can argue all day long whether GW2 being competitive is a joke of an idea, if you're at least attempting to make a game competitive you should balance a game around the most competitive part of the environment, right? So therefore Soulbeast, at least I'd argue, really doesn't need a nerf.

    Whether the game should be balanced exclusively around the top tier of play is debatable. Here's the thing, by your reasoning, something like Condi Mirage should never have been touched. People like Incisorr made the "no Condi Mirages in top 10, and only 1 in top 100 (himself), etc." argument all day long, and no one took it seriously. Why? Because the "unfun" experiences of 90% (or whatever) of the community apparently mattered. You needn't look far back in balance update history to see which camp Anet sided with. For them to do any different with regards to SlB would be an abdication of equity.

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:
    A nerf I could get more behind on a small level is maybe nerf the mobility of Soulbeast a lil'. Shorter range on the greatsword leap and the soulbeast ability dashes. Perhaps people will be less annoyed by the pewpewyness if he can't be around everywhere doing it, or follow up a rapid fire combo immediately by closing the gap in one skill.

    I would take anything to start with tbh. The point is SlB has not seen significant nerfs to this broken mechanic since creation. I think it's Trevor who even advocates nerfing the range of Sic 'Em in half, preserving the damage, but forcing SlBs to come within shorter range to benefit, allowing some degree of counterplay to melee and other classes via short range gap closers. Your range-related nerfs would further this end as well and certainly help combat the seeming unfairness, lack of counterplay, and overly low-risk, high reward nature of ranged Sic 'Em. Or if you rather keep the long range, in keeping with being RANGErs, damage needs to go, by a lot.

    That's one thing I personally never understood about Ranger, mainly SlB, in this game. In most games, the basic paradigm is pew-pew stuff does less damage because it's dealt from long-range safety, while melee is where the DPS resides since it's risky (not to mention the basic physics of being pelted by arrows versus being sliced by a greatsword). The fundamental problem with SlB is it breaks this paradigm, offering top DPS from the safety of range, stealth, and excellent mobility and disengage should it actually be needed.

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @Ben K.6238 said:
    You don't fix an uncompetitive class by taking the one thing that contributes most to power creep on that class and making it even more overpowered. You fix it by addressing the reasons why it doesn't use anything else.

    Back in the day, the most effective ranger builds didn't use longbow at all.

    That's because there was an abundance of reflect/projectile destruction so it was next to pointless. However now people want Unstoppable union nerfed aswell, so. vOv I'unno, y'know what, I hope it gets nerfed. If I stand corrected then that's actually a good thing 'cause it means it'll be fine, but what I suspect will happen is Soulbeast will be next to unplayable if other professions don't get shifted aswell, and then hopefully people will be like, "Oh snap, maybe it didn't need a nerf." Or we'll find out who some of the provocateurs in this community are.

    If remaining power-crept stuff like Holo, Scrapper, and Spellbreaker get proper adjustments--as they should--SlB won't be disadvantaged. Certainly no more than other once great dueling specs who've already seen huge shakeups.

    I'm sorry SlB mains, but if history is any indication, the sooner you accept what's coming, the better off you'll be.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 17, 2019

    Powercreep:
    The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

    Why don't you answer my question, which you call a meme?

    My main question to you:
    If SLB is such power creep, because of a skill, if this skill is so powerful, where are all the SLB in higher PvP ranks?

    My secondary questions:
    Do you agree that in PvP there are better performing professions? If yes: 1st do you think that by nerfing this skill will make the SLB perform equally with these professions and 2nd how do you call Sic 'Em a power creep when we all know that there are a lot stronger skills?

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:

    Powercreep:
    The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

    Why don't you answer my question, which you call a meme?

    My main question to you:
    If SLB is such power creep, because of a skill, if this skill is so powerful, where are all the SLB in higher PvP ranks?

    First of all, if you're going to keep repeating the "top ranks" argument like it's the be all, end all, how about some actual numbers? Are you seriously suggesting there is a scarcity of SlBs in P3, let alone P1-2 and below?

    The entire PvP community does not revolve around whatever the top AT comps are or who the legendaries are. If the power crept spec is over performing everywhere else, it's still an issue.

    But okay, we can play that game. If condi-mirage was so power crept, so OP, where was it in the top ranks and ATs, even before it was gutted? By your reasoning, let's un-nerf Mirage? Deal?

    My secondary questions:
    Do you agree that in PvP there are better performing professions? If yes: 1st do you think that by nerfing this skill will make the SLB perform equally with these professions and 2nd how do you call Sic 'Em a power creep when we all know that there are a lot stronger skills?

    I've made no secret of my view that there are multiple still-powercrept things flying around, including Holo, SB, and yes, SlB. All need to be reigned in, just like others before them. Not a radical concept.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    Powercreep:
    The situation where updates to a game introduce more powerful units or abilities, leaving the older ones underpowered.

    Why don't you answer my question, which you call a meme?

    My main question to you:
    If SLB is such power creep, because of a skill, if this skill is so powerful, where are all the SLB in higher PvP ranks?

    First of all, if you're going to keep repeating the "top ranks" argument like it's the be all, end all, how about some actual numbers? Are you seriously suggesting there is a scarcity of SlBs in P3, let alone P1-2 and below?

    The entire PvP community does not revolve around whatever the top AT comps are or who the legendaries are. If the power crept spec is over performing everywhere else, it's still an issue.

    But okay, we can play that game. If condi-mirage was so power crept, so OP, where was it in the top ranks and ATs, even before it was gutted? By your reasoning, let's un-nerf Mirage? Deal?

    Correct answer is : it doesnt have to be in top10 landed to nerf/overnerf something to hell. Its enough a massive outcry with slogan "ITS UNFUN TO PLAY AGAINST DOESNT MATTER HOW BAD IT IS"
    If it would be balanced based on class performance from ranked/mAT all this meta classes like: rev, holo,scrapper,FB,scourge,warrior that occupy pretty much entire top25 would end up where renegade is

  • kin korn karn.9023kin korn karn.9023 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    "Mesmer got nerfed unnecessarily, so we should do the same to Soulbeast."

    So you guys admit that you just wanna nerf things based on how much you like/dislike it, regardless of how good or bad it is. At least we agree that SlB isn't actually overperforming, I guess.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    The entire PvP community does not revolve around whatever the top AT comps are or who the legendaries are.

    But it is...
    Top AT comps should be and are the index, nothing else.
    BECAUSE everything else falls below a learning curve, which makes gameplay against Sic 'Em SLB a learning issue and not a Power Creep.

    I keep repeating myself because people keep ignoring things I've said.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:
    "Mesmer got nerfed unnecessarily, so we should do the same to Soulbeast."

    So you guys admit that you just wanna nerf things based on how much you like/dislike it, regardless of how good or bad it is. At least we agree that SlB isn't actually overperforming, I guess.

    Yep, that is what they want...

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    The entire PvP community does not revolve around whatever the top AT comps are or who the legendaries are.

    But it is...
    Top AT comps should be and are the index, nothing else.

    Not exactly. Because what works in a pre-made and highly coordinated AT comp does not necessarily work in queue.

    BECAUSE everything else falls below a learning curve, which makes gameplay against Sic 'Em SLB a learning issue and not a Power Creep.

    Well, like I said, your very same argument was used by people like @incisorr.9502 in defense of Condi-Mirage, but we all know how that played out. I'm not saying the outcome was right. But you can't deny that having two different outcomes for the same scenario is wrong. Either the argument is legit for both scenarios or it isn't.

  • @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:
    "Mesmer got nerfed unnecessarily, so we should do the same to Soulbeast."

    So you guys admit that you just wanna nerf things based on how much you like/dislike it, regardless of how good or bad it is. At least we agree that SlB isn't actually overperforming, I guess.

    Yep, that is what they want...

    No. They want precedent to apply equally, not inconsistently. It's a little thing in Western democracies known as "rule of law." Why should one group be punished for "breaking a rule" while another is let off the hook for breaking the same rule? No grudges, no vengeance, just equal treatment.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:
    "Mesmer got nerfed unnecessarily, so we should do the same to Soulbeast."

    So you guys admit that you just wanna nerf things based on how much you like/dislike it, regardless of how good or bad it is. At least we agree that SlB isn't actually overperforming, I guess.

    Yep, that is what they want...

    No.

    Yes, buddy. SLB is underperforming in competitive matches (a fact, not an opinion) but you want it nerfed. Also, you can't compare condi-mirage which had its place in competitive with SLB which currently doesn't. There is no same scenario or same rule...

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Twilight Tempest.7584Twilight Tempest.7584 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:
    "Mesmer got nerfed unnecessarily, so we should do the same to Soulbeast."

    So you guys admit that you just wanna nerf things based on how much you like/dislike it, regardless of how good or bad it is. At least we agree that SlB isn't actually overperforming, I guess.

    Yep, that is what they want...

    No.

    Yes, buddy. SLB is underperforming in competitive matches (a fact, not an opinion) but you want it nerfed. Also, you can't compare condi-mirage which had its place in competitive with SLB which currently doesn't. There is no same scenario or same rule...

    Yes, buddy. SLB is condi-mirage was and still is underperforming in competitive matches (a fact, not an opinion) but you the community want[ed] it nerfed. So Anet nerfed it, and they nerfed it hard.

    Today, SlB is in a similar position to where condi-mirage was: doing very well throughout most levels of play, while not being used in the highest levels. Same scenario. Same outcome should occur.

    But go ahead and keep calling for a buff to Sic 'Em. Spoiler: Not gonna happen.

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    C'mon guys. Don't just assume everyone defending the Soulbeast is a Soulbeast main. Some people just happen to like playing against the profession or feel like it's fine as it is and don't want to see what they consider unnecessary nerfs.

    To be fair, the argument raised for the fact that Soulbeast should be nerfed because it shouldn't be exempt if the situation is identical/very similar to what caused a previous nerf...
    I mean, I can't really disagree with that in all honesty. I don't think that's how balance should work in the slightest, but it's a fair point to be made. But the line has to be drawn somewhere though, right? What is 'fun' to play or 'unfun' is a very subjective view, outside of a complete consensus (And that's not what this is, let's be honest here. Seems like there are alot of people who find it grating to play against Soulbeast, but it's hardly everyone, clearly.) So if anything even remotely unfun causes a bit of ire in the community and they take up arms against it, well, if that's what the driving force behind balance in the game is I'm not sure it's a good direction. 'Course a game should be fun and professions should be exciting, but outside of a perfect world some things are gonna' irritate at least someone out there.

    But while you're mentioning Holosmith/ Scrapper and Warrior to get nerfed, I mean, I don't really think Holo needs a nerf. I found it bs to play against first few games, then you kinda' figure out how to play against it. If they beat you, they outplayed you. 'least that's my view. Scrapper, for sure, but again, that's an opinion. There's a whole other thread for warrior so, leave that for that thread I guess. But no mention of Fb or Scourge? Not that I think they need nerfs actually, despite being very strong. I would've though they'd be on the top of everyone's list for nerfs, not Engineer/Warrior/Ranger.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

  • sephiroth.4217sephiroth.4217 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    Not to brag, but I put together a puzzle in 4 days and the box said 2-4 years.
    Please allow team queue with rewards again at our own discretion.
    06210311 251521 121512

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    Where it was practically unused, though.
    Aside from that, yeah, important points that need to be considered. Also ROM. ROM is someone who's opinion should be valued highly I imagine, especially on the topic of Soulbeast ( and Ranger as a whole for that matter). I'm sure only a minority - however vocal they might be - are interested in preserving their class in an overpowered state, whereas the rest will be quite honest about the overtuned or flawed aspects of their profession. Most players should consider what the players that have put the time into and as such have expertise on any given profession more than their own assumptions, if they don't play said profession 'course.

  • kin korn karn.9023kin korn karn.9023 Member ✭✭✭

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    I wouldn't consider either of those guys top tier (no offense intended), and I rarely if ever see Vallun even playing Ranger.

    The problem with Soulbeast is that it's outshined by other professions by every relevant metric.
    Not enough sustain, CC, or cleave to be a great teamfighter.
    Not enough sustain or CC to be a great sidenoder.
    Not enough mobility to be a great +1er.

    It can do all of these things reasonably well, but even if you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build, there are better options to choose from. Literally any role that you want to play, there are better classes for the job. Generally speaking, anyway. In very specific scenarios, SlB can shine of course.

    I'm not saying it's bad. It's just not great. Most of Sic Em SlB's damage is easily avoided. Its defensive skills are lackluster and most are also used for offense, so are often on CD when you need them. It has little in its kit for responding to bursts or CC spam. It has very little condi cleanse. Competent players will pressure SlB because they know it's dangerous if left freecasting, but is one of the more vulnerable builds and a pretty easy target if focused.

  • @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    I wouldn't consider either of those guys top tier (no offense intended), and I rarely if ever see Vallun even playing Ranger.

    The problem with Soulbeast is that it's outshined by other professions by every relevant metric.
    Not enough sustain, CC, or cleave to be a great teamfighter.
    Not enough sustain or CC to be a great sidenoder.
    Not enough mobility to be a great +1er.

    It can do all of these things reasonably well, but even if you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build, there are better options to choose from. Literally any role that you want to play, there are better classes for the job. Generally speaking, anyway. In very specific scenarios, SlB can shine of course.

    I'm not saying it's bad. It's just not great. Most of Sic Em SlB's damage is easily avoided. Its defensive skills are lackluster and most are also used for offense, so are often on CD when you need them. It has little in its kit for responding to bursts or CC spam. It has very little condi cleanse. Competent players will pressure SlB because they know it's dangerous if left freecasting, but is one of the more vulnerable builds and a pretty easy target if focused.

    ^ much this. Have fun playing SB in a game with a competent Revenant.

  • bOTEB.1573bOTEB.1573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    I wouldn't consider either of those guys top tier (no offense intended), and I rarely if ever see Vallun even playing Ranger.

    The problem with Soulbeast is that it's outshined by other professions by every relevant metric.
    Not enough sustain, CC, or cleave to be a great teamfighter.
    Not enough sustain or CC to be a great sidenoder.
    Not enough mobility to be a great +1er.

    It can do all of these things reasonably well, but even if you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build, there are better options to choose from. Literally any role that you want to play, there are better classes for the job. Generally speaking, anyway. In very specific scenarios, SlB can shine of course.

    I'm not saying it's bad. It's just not great. Most of Sic Em SlB's damage is easily avoided. Its defensive skills are lackluster and most are also used for offense, so are often on CD when you need them. It has little in its kit for responding to bursts or CC spam. It has very little condi cleanse. Competent players will pressure SlB because they know it's dangerous if left freecasting, but is one of the more vulnerable builds and a pretty easy target if focused.

    Hope everyone read this because it literally stated the facts about the SLB gameplay at the moment. ANET, please give this build more sustain.

    Wishlist:
    Everything that kills me should be nerfed
    Remove all time gates - I play more than some people yet I receive the same rewards per day/week (PvP/WvW tickets etc)
    ANET developments/events and everything else should be in a schedule with the time I play

  • Vithzerai.3291Vithzerai.3291 Member ✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @bOTEB.1573 said:

    @kin korn karn.9023 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    I wouldn't consider either of those guys top tier (no offense intended), and I rarely if ever see Vallun even playing Ranger.

    The problem with Soulbeast is that it's outshined by other professions by every relevant metric.
    Not enough sustain, CC, or cleave to be a great teamfighter.
    Not enough sustain or CC to be a great sidenoder.
    Not enough mobility to be a great +1er.

    It can do all of these things reasonably well, but even if you're going for a jack-of-all-trades build, there are better options to choose from. Literally any role that you want to play, there are better classes for the job. Generally speaking, anyway. In very specific scenarios, SlB can shine of course.

    I'm not saying it's bad. It's just not great. Most of Sic Em SlB's damage is easily avoided. Its defensive skills are lackluster and most are also used for offense, so are often on CD when you need them. It has little in its kit for responding to bursts or CC spam. It has very little condi cleanse. Competent players will pressure SlB because they know it's dangerous if left freecasting, but is one of the more vulnerable builds and a pretty easy target if focused.

    Hope everyone read this because it literally stated the facts about the SLB gameplay at the moment. ANET, please give this build more sustain.

    Ooh, now not sure I agree with this to be honest. Ranger is a tricky profession to balance sustain on, in a similar way to Mesmer actually. Their profession mechanic can deal the damage for them in arguably a 'passive' form (for certain mesmer builds in the past anyway.). Sure there is skill to be had in microing your pet, no denying, but if you give Ranger too much sustain that indirectly buffs the pet mechanic disproportionately I feel. We saw this with Druid. I mained Druid both pre-nerf and post-nerf. I'm not going to profess I'm an expert on Druid, but I'd like to think I was a decent contender with the profession. Pre-nerf, it was far too good and deserved every bit of the nerf it received. Being able to outsustain a fight without having to focus as much on your offensive rotation but still apply pressure is a slippery slope.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @sephiroth.4217 said:

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @sephiroth.4217 said:
    Has anyone stopped to think if it isn't viable in top tier play then it wouldnt matter if it got nerfed or not? It actually reinforces the idea that the kit overall needs adjusting.

    You guys are acting like Sic Em is make or break for the entire kits viability.

    I did learn a lot from these threads though, Ive been using Sic Em wrong..
    Ive been using it with Worldy Impact instead of Longbow 2.

    But the majority of people aren't suggesting the kit be adjusted, they're asking for a straight up downgrade. I notice for the most part a lack of suggestion as for how to make the rest of the kit viable. (Not saying from you personally, just in general) And granted, that's not their responsibility, but you see my point?

    In fact I remember reading a post from either this forum or another recently that said something like, "You can even keep the damage bonus for the pet, just nerf it for the player when they merge." As if for a single second it could even be considered a problem outside of the bonus player damage.

    Well a suggestion like that returns Sic Em back to its intended design...

    "If" the kit isn't viable at top tier (and I would have thought vallun/trev would be top tier), then maybe they can share why they struggle at thier rank.
    Do they need more stab like Tempest does?
    Do they need better mobility?
    Do they need more damage?
    Do they need more sustain?

    Then at what point do we recognize the fact that a lot of players are used to playing against the same players on thier same builds? Because playstyles adjust accordingly to experience with dealing with certain players and the way they use thier class. Is Ranger not "viable" because its 1 dimensional for example.

    I expect @Trevor Boyer.6524 to write in depth on this at some stage.

    @kin korn karn.9023 already wrote up a good summary of the situation. Let me toss a couple case scenarios that will better explain where the Ranger mains are coming from with their statements in this thread.

    Case Scenario 1 - I am playing Gank "My DPS Soulbeast" in a game vs. a bunch of Gold 3 and Gold 2 opponents, maybe there is a Plat 1 in there somewhere.

    • I am on RED team and we are: FB/Necro/Herald/Spellbreaker/DPS Soulbeast. The BLUE team is FB/Necro/Herald/Spellbreaker/Condi Mirage.
    • We are in Legacy and I go to mid on the initial split. I follow the Spellbreaker far at first and then turn around and go to mid to sit on the opponent's mid ledge.
    • The opponents can clearly see me on the ledge as they are approaching mid. The opponents continue to push into the center of mid with their FB/Necro/Herald. They completely disregard my positioning. Even the opponent Herald chooses to disregard me and attack our Necromancer.
    • I notice it is safe to unleash every single CD that I have because no one is applying pressure to me. I begin free-casting with LB#5 first, then pop Sic Em before LB#2ing the FB, the FB goes down, I use LB#3 to stealth off his body, I rush off the ledge and into the mid fight while stealthed with Gazelle F2 merge skill, Sic Em is still active on the FB's body, I swap to GS and Maul into WI into Hilt Bash and Maul again, FB dies along with anyone who chose to stand there and try to revive him.
    • I commence the next phase of my job, which similar to a Thief role, is moving around the map and catching players by surprise during their rotations, so I can hit them hard before they hit me and hopefully down them before they even get to the nodes. The opponent players have poor map awareness if they are even looking at their mini map at all. They rarely notice my positioning. Eventually they begin to treat me as some kind of environmental hazard that should be avoided instead of engaged. Due to this, they allow me to free-cast vs. them the entire game. When they are off node and I engage them, most of them do try to utilize terrain to block projectiles, but they tunnel vision the idea that "they must reach the node at all costs" and as such they never stop to actually pressure me. When they get on the node they seem to believe they must stay on the node, and begin to disregard anti-LOS tactics. They also seem to expect that I will follow them onto the node, and then get frustrated when they arrive on the node, but I am 1500 range away, firing a LB at them. Not once in the match does the Herald or Condi Mirage attempt to pressure & neutralize me. They only play on the nodes and only ever walk in straight lines from one node to the next, as if it were a golden rule that should never be broken.
    • At the end of the match I am met with remarks from the opponent team such as: "Soulbeast is broken" "Play something that requires skill" "Your Ranger is hacking" Over the course of many matches and seeing the same faces, these players begin to regard me as some kind of untouchable & omnipresent source of damage. But the truth is, they just can't see around their "get to the nodes and stay on the nodes" tunnel visioning, and most of them didn't even fully understand their job roles. In a match where I am against Herald and a Condi Mirage, I should never once in that match be allowed to free-cast burst anything. I should be being pressured so hard that it should be difficult to even consider targeting anything other than the guy who is pressuring me with a counter.

    Case Scenario 2 - Same exact situation, but now I am playing in an AT with a Plat 2 team, and we are against a Plat 2 team.

    • I am on RED team and we are: FB/Necro/Herald/Spellbreaker/DPS Soulbeast. The BLUE team is FB/Necro/Herald/Spellbreaker/Condi Mirage.
    • We are in Legacy and I go to mid on the initial split. I follow the Spellbreaker far at first and then turn around and go to mid to sit on the opponent's mid ledge.
    • As soon as the opponents see me even approaching the ledge, they begin to take advantage of anti-LOS tactics. The opponent FB & Necro stand behind the little cement building that sits slightly off node of mid, to block my LOS. The opponent Herald immediately drops what he is doing and jumps me. Herald is 1 of the 2 super counters vs. DPS Soulbeast. He knows he can completely neutralize me and kill me easily if he keeps pressuring me, and that I cannot kill him unless he seriously fumbles. But rather than chase me for the 1v1 off node, he is smart. He pressures me only long enough to bait the Sic Em when I must counter pressure him, and then he goes back to mid, knowing there will be roughly a 30s downtime before I am dangerous again. He also knows that I won't be entering any 3v3 team fights at mid with no Sic Em active because I won't kill damage, and Soulbeast DPSers are like Thieves, they can't roll around in a mid fight and survive very long, even if they have support on them. So the Herald knows I must stay off node and pew pew with weak damage until Sic Em is once again active. I have been neutralized to such a point, that the opponent team is able to temporarily disregard me completely.
    • There is no reason to stand and pew mid with no Sic Em active. Pewing with LB#1s or LB#2s vs. a 3v3 where the opponents have 2 good supports present, is usually a waste of time unless your judgement tells you that your damage would indeed be enough to tip the scales in your team's favor and create a wipe. Normally in this situation it is best to rotate for a decap while your CDs refresh. The 3v3 looks like it isn't budging at mid and no one is pushing our home, so I go to + my Spellbreaker who is at far vs. a Condi Mirage.
    • As soon as the Condi Mirage sees me coming, he just leaves. He doesn't stand there with the golden rule in mind, he just leaves and peels around near his spawn. He is smart enough to know that if he stays he is going to die and grant our team +5 points and then we are going to cap the node anyway so he just leaves. I assume he's headed to mid. My Spellbreaker is now finishing the cap on far so I head back to mid. As soon as I get near the ledge, the Condi Mirage jumps me up the steps. This is the other super counter vs. DPS Soulbeast. You can't kill it unless you land the 2 shot Maul into WI, and this is a great deal more difficult to do than it seems. You have little time to do this because the DPS Soulbeast's condi clears are few and infrequent. If you can't pull something sneaky vs. the Condi Mirage to be able to land those 2 shots, you aren't going to win. The condi attrition will work fast on the DPS Soulbeast if it doesn't run. Rapid Firing and ranged? Nah it doesn't work vs. Condi Mirage. It doesn't deal enough immediate damage to provide a kill opportunity before the Mirage spams Mirage Cloaks to stop it, and counter pressures the DPS Soulbeast. Remember, we are talking about DPS Soulbeasts with Sic Em here, not sustain Boonbeast builds. The Herald and the Condi Mirage share one big thing in common when they go to pressure the DPS Soulbeast and that is, the DPS Soulbeast cannot disengage the fight unless the Herald or Condi Mirage really gets juked hard. They are able to stay on the DPS Soulbeast and apply such consistent pressure that it forces the DPS Soulbeast to have to drop what he's doing and engage the 1v1 on the spot. It forces the Soulbeast to have to use Sic Em for kill opportunity, because if it doesn't, the Herald or Condi Mirage will kill the DPS Soulbeast long before non Sic Em damage could kill a Herald or Condi Mirage. So the issue here is that the DPS Soulbeast gets 10s to be able to kill a Herald or Condi Mirage. If that 10s burst doesn't land right, the DPS Soulbeast dies. More often than not vs. Heralds and Condi Mirages, the DPS Soulbeast will lose.
    • So the Condi Mirage has jumped me, but I am close to the team fight at Mid. I tell my Scourge in Discord to target the Mirage briefly so I can disengage and run to the Home node. I see the opponent Spellbreaker is headed there. My Scourge provides cover pressure and I LB#3 stealth off the opponent Scourge at mid, and then I GS#3 and Gazelle F2 my way across Mid and head over to Home. The Condi Mirage disengages his pursuit and stays to team fight at mid which is now a 4v4 when my Spellbreaker shows up from Far.
    • I move towards Home quickly enough to defend our cap, but as soon as the Spellbreaker sees me, rather than keep pushing into my Home node, he charges me off node, which is the best thing he could do. As soon as I pop Sic Em, he dodge rolls off the rocky ledge and begins to utilize anti-LOS tactics. He is also keen to avoid my Maul & WI when I attempt to clip him through an obstacle. As soon as the Sic Em ends, he is smart and knows I'm not so dangerous for the next 30s. He continues to go to my Home node and begins to decap it. He knows that I won't be going to stand on the node to defend it vs. a Spellbreaker, with no Sic Em to pop. In this situation, I try to land as much damage as I can with LB#1 autos, LB#2s and LB#5 while I wait for Sic Em to recharge. The Spellbreaker is smart, he hides behind the minecart on our Home node so I can't auto him, but I can still hit him with LB#5. I move up around the rocky ledge that goes slightly behind our Home node so I can hit him with autos. I am trying to bait him off the node to stop his full cap, while positioning myself to optimize the amount of time I have to refresh CDs. What I am trying to do, is bait his Rampage. If I can't bait the Rampage and have enough defensive CDs ready to engage it, and then respond with Sic Em melee, I can't kill the Spellbreaker. He takes the bait and is smart enough to leave the node so he isn't auto'd to death. But he is also smart enough to come up the ledge at me and shorter my duration of time to be able to refresh my CDs. Luckily, most of them are back. I jump down onto the node and allow the Spellbreaker to engage me melee range, I am trying to bait his Rampage. He's being smart and not using it. I begin to panic, because soon I will be forced to retreat because I cannot use Sic Em until he uses his Rampage. I go to GS#3 and Gazelle F2 away up the hill to mid. As soon as he sees me GS#3 off the node towards mid, he pops Rampage and Throws Boulder. He actually hits me with it and I have no stability on as I was saving it for Rampage. But I was far enough up the hill to where I am able to get up before he connects with a gap closer. I LB#3 stealth and reposition as I pop my stability right as I am revealed. He closes in with another gap closer and I can see his Rampage is about to end. As soon as the Rampage ends, I blow my full Sic Em buffs and push the offense. Although I would say DPS Soulbeast vs. Spellbreaker is a balanced match, it isn't an easy one. This is generally a match up where whoever messes up first, is the person who loses. I go in for the offense and barely win vs. the Spellbreaker, with only about 10% of my health bar remaining when he gets downed. Now I can begin the decap on our Home node.
    • By the time I had downed the Spellbreaker and began the decap, it was 3 minutes into the match, and I had done nothing but run around in attempts to survive, wasn't standing on a node to cap or defend, and even had to win a 1v1 off node for the most part, to even survive. At the end of the match, I am met with comments from my team mates in the Discord such as: "You might have to start playing something else bro" "It just isn't good against better teams" "We'd rather have you on something that can stay on a node" and you know what? They're right.

    ^ All of this is why I primarily use Druid for side node play, and only use DPS Soulbeast for very specific matches where the stars align, and it can be used as a counter vs. some particular situation. DPS Soulbeast is in no way a stable reliable meta build to run in the way that FBs, Necros, Heralds, Spellbreakers, Holos, Scrappers are. DPS Soulbeast is a niche thing now, that works great in some situations but is bad in others, just like Thieves, Mesmers and Eles.

    In all seriousness, this is what we're looking at in terms of a DPS Soulbeast's counters and countering. So a > means counter, >> means hard counter, = is balanced. This is considering that the DPS Soulbeast is facing people who play at around a Plat 2 level, who actually understand how to play their class:

    • DPS Soulbeast = DPS Soulbeast
    • DPS Soulbeast < More sustainy Ranger builds
    • DPS Soulbeast >> Firebrand
    • DPS Soulbeast > Core Guard
    • DPS Soulbeast = Spellbreaker
    • DPS Soulbeast << Herald
    • DPS Soulbeast = Holosmith
    • DPS Soulbeast = Scrapper, but DPS Soulbeast can >> Bad Scrappers
    • DPS Soulbeast >> Thieves
    • DPS Soulbeast << Condi Mirage or Condi Chrono
    • DPS Soulbeast = Other Mesmer specs
    • DPS Soulbeast >> All Necromancers
    • DPS Soulbeast = Eles

    We're talking it has 3 things that it counters hard, Firebrands & Necros & Thieves. Then it wins against Core Guards, wouldn't exactly say it counters them really. Then it has balanced matches against 6 things, which includes DPS Soulbeast vs. DPS Soulbeast. But it has 3 things that counter it hard, Condi Mirages & Chronos & Heralds. Then it also is countered by more sustainy Ranger specs. So you see it's exactly what I've been saying, it's just something to swap to for a counter vs. teams that are trying to stack FB/Necro/Necro type situations, who do not have Heralds or Condi Mirages & Chronos present. If a decent team with decent players has even a single Herald or Condi Mirage/Chrono present, they can completely neutralize the play of the DPS Soulbeast. And even in those matches where the DPS Soulbeast is getting to counter things hard, he still has to do it mostly always off node, which we all know isn't exactly preferable in Conquest.

    I'm guessing that most people who are complaining about Sic Em Soulbeasts, are people who run Firebrands, Necros, and Thieves. If they are playing anything else, then they must be tunnel visioning the HoT Bruiser/Bunker meta golden rule "get to the node and stay on the node at all costs no matter what" because let me tell ya, dealing with DPS Soulbeast aint hard. I said it once and I'm going to say it again: The biggest problem with discussing balance in this debacle, is that most players do not see Guild Wars 2 as an LOS game. They had grown so accustomed to the old HoT Bruiser/Bunker meta, where the closest thing to ranged damage was a Mender Druid popping them with LB#4 to decap them, that it formed their points of view as "This is how the game should feel. We go to nodes and stand on nodes and we fight on the nodes until players die." So they had done that for so long, without needing to ever worry about anything with ranged damage, that they continue to try and play that way out of sheer habit. Then when anything shows up that's a ranged character that's actually dangerous, they immediately complain about it, because it throws off the comfort zone of their expectations of how the game should be played. <- That is exactly what is happening.

    If people want to say: "I don't like how the game feels when we have a lot of ranged damage being thrown around" I can't argue with that. But to keep crying about how imbalanced it is, and how overpowered it is, is ridiculous, because it isn't.

    1. Start paying attention to Ranger positioning on your mini map.
    2. Learn to utilize obstacles & terrain for anti-LOS.
    3. Make sure to let your team mates know that they need to be pressuring the DPS Soulbeast and not letting it free-cast.

    ^ It's that simple. It really is a l2p issue. Stop tunnel visioning: "get to the node, stay on the node at all costs." The game is different now with PoF Deadeyes & Soulbeasts.

    But yeah, to answer @sephiroth.4217 directly, I can say that it isn't so easy to nail down what it would or wouldn't need to be competitive in higher tiers. But without much though, I can say that the biggest problem is within the design of the class in general, its weapon skills mainly. Everything the Ranger does is super telegraphed, and thus it becomes easy for veteran players to spot a burst, and they know exactly how to react. A DPS Soulbeast using Sic Em as example, has to land all its obvious high damage stuff within 10s to be able to land those kills. Unfortunately for the Soulbeast, a veteran player is clearly going to spot Rapid Fire, Maul and WI. This stuff isn't as easy to land as some people seem to believe it is. Then when those skills are on CD, including Sic Em, the Ranger has no sustained damage output, so it has to run and kite to survive and potentially win. Now if we are talking something like a Holosmith, it has pure sustained damage, and a lot of it. It can sit on a node and bust your kitten up and down with large frequent AoE attacks that ultimately cannot all be avoided. There is so much high damage AoE spam that comes off that class, nothing has enough blocks/dodges/evades/invulns to avoid it all. Eventually if you are on the node with the Holo, you're gonna get hit and hit hard. This is not true with Ranger. A Ranger has a handful of dangerous attacks, then everything else is just sort of meh damage, most of it single strikes not even AoE. This means that it is actually possible for some classes/builds to completely avoid all of the Ranger's threatening attacks, and just face tank the unthreatening ones. <- So this right here is really where the difference is made in opinion on this debacle about DPS Soulbeasts. Intermediate or casual or maybe just mid range players, aren't able to intuitively dodge and avoid the Ranger's threatening attacks, so the class feels OP as hell and it rages them. However, experienced players CAN dodge all of it, and render the DPS Soulbeast completely useless. And that is why things like Holosmiths and Spellbreakers and Heralds, are better in high tier play. You cannot ultimately avoid the damage from those classes. They will hit you and deal threatening damage eventually. So yeah, the problem with Ranger isn't sustain or stability or mobility, it's the telegraphs and how ALL of its threatening damage is packed into Rapid Fire, Maul, Worldly Impact. The Ranger doesn't need nerfing, it needs damage distribution in other places than just those 3 skills. That's exactly what it needs.

  • @Trevor Boyer.6524, that was a good, informative read with respect to DPS SlB. +Helpful.

    Would the "more sustainy"/hybrid builds not be more reliable? Seems those builds do just fine overall in most levels of play. Like, at least up through mid Platinum? In lower tiers, you can imagine why the long range surprises tilt people much like condi-bombs from c-mirages used to.

    Also, since this thread is specifically about buffing Sic 'Em, I'm curious what your view is on that. If I'm not mistaken, you actually proposed toning its range down to afford better counterplay to non-ranged classes.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524, that was a good, informative read with respect to DPS SlB. +Helpful.

    Would the "more sustainy"/hybrid builds not be more reliable? Seems those builds do just fine overall in most levels of play. Like, at least up through mid Platinum? In lower tiers, you can imagine why the long range surprises tilt people much like condi-bombs from c-mirages used to.

    Also, since this thread is specifically about buffing Sic 'Em, I'm curious what your view is on that. If I'm not mistaken, you actually proposed toning its range down to afford better counterplay to non-ranged classes.

    1. The more sustainy builds tipping towards Boonbeastdom are somewhat reliable but the problem is that if they aren't rocking mega kill damage, they no longer have an applicable role in higher tier conquest play. The problem happened when Scrapper showed up and Spellbreakers became Strength Spellbreakers. The more sustainy Soulbeasts lack the kill damage required to remove a Scrapper from a node. The Scrapper also will win a decap fight vs. the Soulbeast, eventually. Then the Strength Spellbreakers don't care how much sustain a Ranger build has, they will counter and kill Ranger builds eventually, that try to hold a node against them. The Rangers that try to kite off node and still fight the Spellbreaker will again run into the problem where they don't have that dangerous kill damage to actually beat a good Spellbreaker. Keyword "good" there. The best case scenario of Ranger vs. Spellbreaker is that the Ranger just needs sheer damage output and mobility to optimize his chances of killing the Spellbreaker. Remember that Spellbreakers have much greater mobility than Ranger builds, and they have ever-cycling CC output. If the Ranger cannot kill the Spellbreaker very quickly, it won't matter how sustainy the Ranger is when the Spellbreaker gets on him and shuts him down with CC play. Then we have the problem that Rangers are just not good in team fights, they never have been. They lack AoE damage outside of LB#5, Maul, and WI, which are so telegraphed and easy for veterans to avoid. They also just lack the sustained damage in general to even consider joining a 4v4 on node as a good idea. The Ranger's actions are usually better spent either +ing or playing side nodes, regardless of if it is DPS or Sustain oriented. The Ranger also seriously lacks CC play in team fights, when compared to things like Holosmiths & Reapers. So all in all what is happening right now is that sustainy Ranger builds although they feel sturdy, are no longer a top side noder. They can't kill Scrappers, can't decap them, can't hold a node from the Scrapper's CC. They get countered by Strength Spellbreakers, can't take a node from it unless they seriously outplay the Spellbreaker, can't hold a node against it. And they are on the lesser end of important presence in team fights. We're looking at a meta where sustainy Soulbeasts just don't have an applicable role that they are good at. This is why all the top Rangers in NA at least, are all running some form of Marks or Sic Em or maybe both in their builds. That single target striking glass cannon damage output is all the Ranger has going for it right now, and in higher tiered play it isn't enough.
    2. Sic Em most certainly does not need a buff. I still stand by my suggestion to half the range activation of Sic Em. There are two reasons for this. The first is that in higher tiered pay, Rangers are waiting to use Sic Em when they get closer range anyway, so they can land the killer Mauls & WIs. Even if they attempt to use it at maximum range for a Rapid Fire, better players react so quickly that someone is going to teleport up on top of the Soulbeast's head to engage & neutralize it, so the range becomes negligent. It would change a bit of how things work in higher tiered play but it wouldn't change it much. The second reason is because most of the complaints we hear about Sic Em are coming from bellow the bell curve where players aren't counter-playing the 1500+ range correctly. If the Sic Em activation range was halved, it would force players in these tiers to have to get closer to their targets, significantly closer before using Sic Em, and this would provide their targets with easier counter-play options when the Ranger is in mid range. Things like Reapers could much more easily catch the Ranger and engage it this way, without having to walk through 1500+ range of 6k LB autos to do it. Basically my suggestion would change little to nothing in high tiered Ranger play, but would put a nerf bat to the heads of low tiered lazy Ranger free-casting. That sounds like a good compromise to me.
    3. And like I already stated in the previous response, the Ranger doesn't need any more nerfing or buffing. It needs some reworks to its weapon skills so the damage distribution is coming off many skills instead of just 3 skills. That would actually tone down the super bursts, because it wouldn't be able to land ALL its damage in 2 to 3 skills. But it would also make it more viable in high tier play, if the Ranger had more sustained damage across the board, instead of having it all inside of just 3 skills. Again, when that damage is ALL inside of just 3 skills, it's easy for veteran players to avoid those 3 skills. If some of that damage were redistributed into places like LB#3, LB#4, GS#3, GS#5, pet merge skills other than WI, the Ranger could actually brawl like other classes instead of coming in for a 10s burst once every 30s, and then having to kite around defensively when the Sic Em is on recharge. <- This is also the reason why Marks builds are dangerous in the hands of experienced Rangers. The MOC and Remorseless aren't so easily counter-played as a 10s every 30s Sic Em activation. MOC and Remorseless together is a much larger damage modifier than Sic Em, and they just sort of come out of no where when they happen. Sic Em is just easier to run, and conveniently has the 6s reveal.
  • @Trevor Boyer.6524, thanks for the in-depth reply. I do think your suggestion of halving Sic 'Em range makes sense for the reasons you stated and is a good compromise. I suspect some will still find the sheer damage amplification excessive, but it does serve a needed purpose against overtuned Scrappers and Spellbreakers. Perhaps if those get toned down, the 40% damage modifier of Sic 'Em can be as well. Reversing power creep needs to happen evenly across all builds.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    I am completely serious about the post.
    My ranger feels super weak without "Sic 'Em!".
    And when this skill has so big CD ranger profession is barely playable outside of PVE.

    It doesn't follow that Sic em needs a buff. If anything ... if Sic Em is so critical to making your performance ... indicates a nerf is necessary.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    I am completely serious about the post.
    My ranger feels super weak without "Sic 'Em!".
    And when this skill has so big CD ranger profession is barely playable outside of PVE.

    It doesn't follow that Sic em needs a buff. If anything ... if Sic Em is so critical to making your performance ... indicates a nerf is necessary.

    As long as they compensate said nerf in other areas, which anet are none too fond of doing.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vithzerai.3291 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @bOTEB.1573 said:
    I am completely serious about the post.
    My ranger feels super weak without "Sic 'Em!".
    And when this skill has so big CD ranger profession is barely playable outside of PVE.

    It doesn't follow that Sic em needs a buff. If anything ... if Sic Em is so critical to making your performance ... indicates a nerf is necessary.

    As long as they compensate said nerf in other areas, which anet are none too fond of doing.

    They shouldnt compensate anything

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