[Mirage] On Staff Ambush Skill - Chaos Vortex

First, let's take a look at the tooltip of this very skill we're going to discuss on.

Chaos Vortex (Ambush)Release a vortex of chaos energy that inflicts conditions on foes and grants boons to allies.

• Damage: 202 (0.5)
• Confusion (2 stacks, 5s): 75 Damage On Skill Use, 220 Damage
• Torment (2 stacks, 5s): 220 Damage, 318 Damage if Moving
• Fury (3s): 20% Critical Chance
• Might (3 stacks, 8s): +90 Power, +90 Condition Damage
• Number of Targets: 5
• Range: 1,200

On paper, 'Chaos Vortext' seems to be quite good. You have an AoE skill that applies 4 damaging condition stacks on 5 enemies, plus, with 3 clones, permanent fury and a good chance to reach 25 stacks of might by yourself--the latter having been unavailable for mesmers throughout all these years.

When the details of this skill came out around the beta stage, it did gave me the hype. The combination of AoE condition damage and high offensive boon coverage almost seemed too good to be true. Maybe, just maybe, I would again in PvE be picking up my beloved yet dust-collecting staff, which had been much underperforming and only recognized as a viable choice in sPvP and WvW roaming, just for this new ambush skill.

But, unfortunately, that wasn't the case.

The problem is how the AoE is applied. The animation of 'Chaos Vortex' is basically the same as guardian's 'Orb of Light' (first stage of staff 2) except the color scheme. And they work in the same way as a big piercing projectile, and suffer from the same issue. The mechanic of the AoE requires an ally or an enemy to contact the orb to receive the effect. This means that allies and untargeted enemies must be lined up perfectly along the path or stacking up precisely on the target.

However, in practice, allies hardly line up along the trajectory of the projectile and have very limited chances to receive the boons, even within point-blank range to the target due to the small width/area of effect. The same issue certaily comes up on the damage aspect as well, with mobs hardly lining or grouping up within the projectile width. The only chance for players to fully utilize the AoE condition under the way this skill currently works, is to equip a focus, an entirely power-based off-hand weapon (without combo), to pull mobs together right on the same spot. The orb width is just so small that even raptor's tail whip can't pull the mobs close enough to each other for the entire group to receive damage from this skill.

This brings us to the quesion: why? Why choose an already unpopular and underperforming mechanic from the guardian's staff skill designed back in 2012, instead of inventing something new (and perhaps more vortex-like visually and/or mechanically) or adapting the mechanics of something with better consensus to be actually working, such as 'Fireball' (elemantalist staff 1 with 180 radius AoE upon impacting enemies)?

I should also bring up the disclaimer here that, I do not believe all weapons should be viable in all game modes or contexts. However, it really pains me to see such potiential to revitalize staff for mesmer in PvE and to increase build diversity, while falling short so close. Even just making it mechanically behave like 'Fireball' would have made this skill so much better, and I really wish this skill will be looked into by the designers while reviewing the ambush skill set.

To be fair, clunky as the mechanic is, it looks amazing. Those huge purple orbs slowly floating through things are exactly what was asked to be done to the staff AA in the early days instead of the bouncy attack, as it fits the name "Winds of Chaos" better.

And, as clunky as it is, it looks every part as pretty as it could be. I think a bigger problem is that the clones just shoot their orbs at your target, plus all the base mesmer design issues, plus all the mirage issues on top. If all of those steps were decent, then this orb would be absolutely no problem.

I do agree with the radius though, even if it means losing the visual (it should be a purple air draft).

I'd like the visual effect and current animation to remain unchanged because honestly is so therapeutic casting it (as with most mirage visual effects) - it's beautiful and pleasing on the eyes.

Rather I'd prefer they just make the orbs track their target and have the boon part of chaos vortex simply emit a pbaoe pulse (or maybe conical aoe similar to firebrand mantra) around the player (and each illusion if IH traited) that procs the 3 might and fury. The conditions can remain on the orb itself as it travels to the enemy.

I haven't even had the chance to use ambushes let alone this, and I really thought that the vortex part of "Chaos Vortex" meant a swirling aoe centred around your target, not a slow blob that doesn't hit anything...

I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

@Coulter.2315 said:I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

The only reason I suggested the aoe boon pulse is because reflects work really badly with staff ambush.

Eg if you have evasive mirror traited and stand in front of 3 clones and happen to evade an attack, not only will you not get any boons from the 3 chaos vortex attacks coming from behind you, you will reflect them backwards so they don't even hit your enemy in front of you...

Tbh this is more a problem with reflects, but it's extremely annoying because you wil definitely take Duelling with IH and very likely pick up Evasive Mirror - an Evasive MIrror totally counteracts staff ambush boon proccing and damage quite often.

Of course I'd rather reflects be fixed to a) not reveal yourself when stealthed and b) not reflect friendly attacks (only reflect enemy attacks).

Anyway, I also like the pink ball even when using Bifrost because it's nice for not everything to be rainbow - the pink orb contrasts nicely with the white/rainbow auto attacks and I like it. :)

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

You're absolutely right on the evasive reflect trait, I reported it as a bug and hope it can get sorted. I'm not sure we should allow reflected damage not revealing you but someone was clearly hungover when they cobbled together the manipulation trait/mass invis fiasco. The pink orb is nice I just remember the guardian 2 bifrost animation at launch (tried to find a video but it seems lost to time) and it was awesome.

@Coulter.2315 said:...to improve its ability to hit moving targetsYes, that is also a problem really need to be addressed, regarding that it does not track targets and flies at a mediocre speed.

Couldn't understand how positioning could be 'fun' but glad some still enjoy it :P Imo, it totally defeats the function of 'Illusionary Ambush' since the utility skill disrupt players' attempt to arrange the position of their clones and themselves.

gonna agree with the love for this one.. its pretty feels impactul and can destroy enemies.. i'm only saddened when it just goes off to nowhere and touches.. no one.

@Virtuality.8351 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:...to improve its ability to hit moving targetsYes, that is also a problem really need to be addressed, regarding that it does not track targets and flies at a mediocre speed.

How about making the player version a manually aimed line skillshot but with something like 3x its current power? They've had the UI capability since HoT adventures at the very least.

@Coulter.2315 said:I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

I think it needs a bit more utility, but this can be added without changing the behavior of the skill much. A slight increase in projectile and casting speeds, and make the ball a combo field that mesmers don't currently have. This makes it easier to use, but also raises the skill ceiling of it.

@Photoloss.4817 said:

@Virtuality.8351 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:...to improve its ability to hit moving targetsYes, that is also a problem really need to be addressed, regarding that it does not track targets and flies at a mediocre speed.

I think that any approach requiring manual targeting (whether on the ground or on enemies) would be unlikely. Your clones will be using the ambush skills if traited 'Infinite Horizon' no matter you use the skill or not, so it would be sensible that the skill must be able to be automatically executed.

@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

Or maybe explode upon impacting the enemies and create an AoE vortex w/ combo field and all currently listed effects? That would work better than a moving combo field/ball. Plus, this would also keep the current visual effect, which is quite favored by people judging from the replies.

I wouldn't want the combo field to be a static, if only because it would make the combos too easy for the mesmer to self trigger. And I wasn't imaginging changing the projectile at all. It would behave similarly to Tides of Time, where the projectile of the spell (the giant shield wall) is the combo field. With IH at least, you'd be tossing out 1-4 combo fields on a ~7 second cooldown, so you can't get too crazy with it.

@Virtuality.8351 said:

@atlashugged.7642 said:

@Coulter.2315 said:I love this ambush, I would only aim to improve its ability to hit moving targets and nothing else. Needing to position yourself to get the most out of clones' casting is an enjoyable aspect of the skill. I love the casting effect and would be heartbroken if any changes ruined it (if they want to make the ball a giant rainbow ball for Bifrost I wouldn't complain - not tiny like a regular bifrost projectile, A GIANT RAINBOW BALL).

Edit: But it should only explode upon reaching its intended target, not the 1st one it hits. I like that this skill pierces people. That's why the projectile should also track its target (just like Winds of Chaos does).

We were discussing the issue this skill has with reflects in another thread, since we are discussing changes to this skill making it "unblockable" would get around the denial of boons and blocking of clone attacks that you will suffer when using a reflect.

@Virtuality.8351 said:

I think that any approach requiring manual targeting (whether on the ground or on enemies) would be unlikely. Your clones will be using the ambush skills if traited 'Infinite Horizon' no matter you use the skill or not, so it would be sensible that the skill must be able to be automatically executed.

Note I said the player version, clones would simply fire at their target. That means the caster could also anticipate how the target reacts to avoid the clone projectiles and adjust their own aim accordingly.

But why splitting it into two skills with different targetting mechanics while the problem could be addressed by simply making the projectile track its target?

@Virtuality.8351 said:But why splitting it into two skills with different targetting mechanics while the problem could be addressed by simply making the projectile track its target?

So it becomes an interesting ability instead of a slightly buffed staff auto. That way they can also make it super-strong due to the high risk of missing which would make it far more useful in PvE where enemies don't walk out of it (we all know they're terrible at skill splits, if they weren't I'd be much more appreciative of your suggestion)

@Photoloss.4817 said:

@Virtuality.8351 said:But why splitting it into two skills with different targetting mechanics while the problem could be addressed by simply making the projectile track its target?

Yay a pve only skill , which even in pve fails to hit none moving targets on a PvP weapon.So interesting.

Interesting = bad ?

@Photoloss.4817 said:

@Virtuality.8351 said:But why splitting it into two skills with different targetting mechanics while the problem could be addressed by simply making the projectile track its target?

Have fun trying to ground target it appropriately during 1.5 sec ambush cast window. Lol

Honestly, this skill doesn't need a lot of work to be good. Just make it so it tracks your target and doesn't vanish in the ground (ie stop using guardian's staff #2 clunky mechanics)

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Yay a pve only skill , which even in pve fails to hit none moving targets on a PvP weapon.So interesting.

Interesting = bad ?

Not PvE-only just different roles. I mean people do use Tides of Time in PvP, right? Maybe it'd need a buff to work properly (larger radius, unblockable so you can aim it at a small capture point to force a dodge/decap)

@bart.3687 said:Have fun trying to ground target it appropriately during 1.5 sec ambush cast window. Lol

Honestly, this skill doesn't need a lot of work to be good. Just make it so it tracks your target and doesn't vanish in the ground (ie stop using guardian's staff #2 clunky mechanics)

People in LoL aim and land skills like that on an effective 2s cooldown fairly consistently. I do agree on the terrain issues though, PoF specs seemingly forgot all progress made since release (well, ToT still gets stuck a lot but Crystal Sands is just shameful by comparison)

@Photoloss.4817 said:People in LoL aim and land skills like that on an effective 2s cooldown fairly consistently.

Yet this is not LoL. This is not a 2.5D game with fixed camera angle and entirely linear and expectable NPC movement. And complicating input operation in a 3D enviroment with free camera will only produce problems to navigate the surrounding and locate specific objects, making it an even more clunky mechanic than the one of guardian staff skill #2.

Edit: friend pointed out to me that LoL is actually 3D, only crafted visually in 2.5D style, including the fixed camera angle. Though you can still see the vast difference between how navigating and locating works between in these two games.

@Photoloss.4817 said:

@FaboBabo.3581 said:Yay a pve only skill , which even in pve fails to hit none moving targets on a PvP weapon.So interesting.

Interesting = bad ?

@bart.3687 said:Have fun trying to ground target it appropriately during 1.5 sec ambush cast window. Lol

Honestly, this skill doesn't need a lot of work to be good. Just make it so it tracks your target and doesn't vanish in the ground (ie stop using guardian's staff #2 clunky mechanics)

I'm playing League of Legends since 5 Years, and the comparison here is pretty weired. Lol has 2 axes, while GW2 has 3. U can dash/shoot through walls in Lol. U cant in GW2. This is one reason why Staff Ambush is bad designed for GW2. In Lol u could just shoot it through walls, in GW2 the Wall will destroy ur Projectile. At competetive Scene staff ambush in lol would still be useless, cause People learn to dodge by movement in LoL very constantly. There is no "dodge" button in League, u actually have to realize the foe's animation and move accordingly. For example look at Morgana's Q. There is a reason we don't see here a lot in Competetive Plays. Morgana's Q is still a lot better than Staff Ambush Q. Morganas Q has the with of her own Model, while staff ambush for example is 1/2 of my asura. Morgana's Q has a 0,25-0,5 sec Cast Time MAXIMUM, while Staff Ambush has 1 sec.

U probably talkin about Ezreals' Q, when u say "Skillshot" on a 2 sec cooldown. Ez Q is way faster, goes through walls, has 0,2 sec Cast Time.

Dont Compare Gw2 and Lol in such things.

I could see a possible option for improving the feel of the Staff Ambush without changing its current function too heavily.

Being a Chaos Vortex, perhaps adding a small Pull effect to the main Orb. Enemies within a small range around the Orb (say 2-3x the size of the Orb) will be pulled into the Orb as it passes by them.

The pull wouldn't cover an area anywhere close to the size of Focus # 4 Temporal Curtain. Just a small pull to the side, enough to improve the reliability for hitting enemies. It'd also be kinda cool seeing a sort of domino effect of enemies getting pulled into the Orb's path as it travels. :P

An image representing the Mirage Staff Ambush with a Pull Zone (and also if Bifrost turned the Orb rainbowy)