Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Soulbeast Needs Some Genuine Nerf Bat Love in the Next Balance Update

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  • Jimarius.2843Jimarius.2843 Member ✭✭

    I didnt realize gold players spent so much time theory crafting on the forums. Post after post about SB the class I get killed by the least. I see SB on the other team that's one less thing to worry about. I see scourge, blow you up insta messer, or the unkillable engie, that's when I start to worry.

  • iKeostuKen.2738iKeostuKen.2738 Member ✭✭✭

    Just make rapid fire deal 5% less damage on each hit.

    Keep the unblockables because rangers actually do need it.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 18, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    This debate is so powerful it broke the webpage. :p

    Not sure if it's just me, but all clickables on this page from @shadowpass.4236's post with the Spoiler buttons and up don't work. Everything after it works. The formatting on that post seems strange and none of the Spoiler buttons work. For me at least.

    Looks like the HTML or CSS broke because some < div > tag didn't get closed.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Zawn.9647Zawn.9647 Member ✭✭✭

    lol what a huge discussion :open_mouth:

    i would love to see berserker amulet gone, as well as ANY resemblance of oneshot builds... i've played before HOT for a couple months and loved the pvp, every fight was skill intensive no matter which profession was...
    then i stopped played and came back post-POF to see that 70% of the fights are decided if you can dodge a single stupid combo or not - ones more predictable than others, but a combo nonetheless - reaper, mesmer, deadeye, soulbeast... that's so sad because the pvp on this game has so much potential between evades, combo fields, leaps/finishers, weapon swap, dodge and such :(

  • Euthymias.7984Euthymias.7984 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    I'm just waiting for Soulbeast to fall iinto irrelevancy as a roaming DPS once it gets a flat nerf and tradeoff on top of it.
    :)

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    Personally my 2c is that that union thing you do when you merge with pet and do rapid fire able to do 32k thats obscene and the dmg needs slight nerf. 32k is ridiculous and i don't like the idea personally of one shot moves that have little to no risk. With double pistol, at least you had to be a bit closer and saw it coming, the ranger of ranger though with that root thing makes it too easy to gank people.

    If it was doing 20k max i'd be ok with it not 32k though thats kinda ridiculous. I could also see nerfing the range of that rapid fire shot a bit.

    I also think that axe thing should hit really hard at least when rangers use that melee attack they need to be in melee range, so there is a risk to it.

    Im not sure where compensation would be done im not a main soulbeast.

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • voltaicbore.8012voltaicbore.8012 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also, most of the rangers that chime in to these discussions are fine with Sic Em/OWP being nerfed (further) because we know that the builds that make use of them are bad/require very little skill to play.

    Yes, I forgot to add this to my original post. Having seen how un-useful the build is beyond the trash tier, I'd be totally fine with a nerf to this in spvp and wvw. However, the 40% finally allowers rangers to do decent power dps in pve, and I'd like to see that remain.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    Skill split exists. Between pvp/wvw/pve.

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

    Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.
    So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 19, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

    Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.
    So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

    You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

    Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used Malicious Sorcery. This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

    They didnt. It doesnt stack with quickness either, its not worth missing might trait stacking trait. Playing illusion traitline outside of coordinated AT with a firebrand carry is pure suicide as you have no sustain/cleanses at all

    After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

    So its like 1 evade is more than enough to actually evade the scepter...Yet, 0.25s is not a huge difference . Even with quickness RF need more than 1 dodge to avoid. Also you arent putting yourself at any risk from ~1900 distance when to use CI you are pretty much in at melee range.

    As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with Lead the Wind which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

    I agree but never felt like it was THAT important

    I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

    Why not? I dont say damage from that skill wasnt hilarious but scepter needed a rework,not just a stupid damage buff of 1 skill to insanity

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

    Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.
    So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

    You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

    Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used Malicious Sorcery. This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

    They didnt. It doesnt stack with quickness either, its not worth missing might trait stacking trait. Playing illusion traitline outside of coordinated AT with a firebrand carry is pure suicide as you have no sustain/cleanses at all

    After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

    So its like 1 evade is more than enough to actually evade the scepter...Yet, 0.25s is not a huge difference . Even with quickness RF need more than 1 dodge to avoid. Also you arent putting yourself at any risk from ~1900 distance when to use CI you are pretty much in at melee range.

    As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with Lead the Wind which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

    I agree but never felt like it was THAT important

    I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

    Why not? I dont say damage from that skill wasnt hilarious but scepter needed a rework,not just a stupid damage buff of 1 skill to insanity

    1. They did. Both traits are viable but the cooldown reduction coupled with the cast time reduction on Malicious Sorcery was (and is) still a very strong choice. Also, the meta condi mirage build used dueling + illusions and was one of the most popular mesmer builds you'd come across in ranked. Calling it "pure suicide" is pretty inaccurate considering how strong it was.
    2. In this post, you claimed that you are "dead on the spot if you don't react instantly to Rapid Fire without getting a chance to LoS."
      So you were lying. Or, you're implying that Confusing Images kills you even faster than 'instantly' because you agreed that you only need one dodge to avoid it as opposed to two. By your own admission (and by definition), only needing a single dodge to avoid CI means that you have significantly LESS time to react to it compared to the two dodges you need to avoid RF.
    3. Against a good player that knows how to bodyblock/use AI to LoS, the base piercing is very important.
  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

    Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.
    So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

    You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

    Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used Malicious Sorcery. This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

    They didnt. It doesnt stack with quickness either, its not worth missing might trait stacking trait. Playing illusion traitline outside of coordinated AT with a firebrand carry is pure suicide as you have no sustain/cleanses at all

    After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

    So its like 1 evade is more than enough to actually evade the scepter...Yet, 0.25s is not a huge difference . Even with quickness RF need more than 1 dodge to avoid. Also you arent putting yourself at any risk from ~1900 distance when to use CI you are pretty much in at melee range.

    As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with Lead the Wind which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

    I agree but never felt like it was THAT important

    I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

    Why not? I dont say damage from that skill wasnt hilarious but scepter needed a rework,not just a stupid damage buff of 1 skill to insanity

    1. They did. Both traits are viable but the cooldown reduction coupled with the cast time reduction on Malicious Sorcery was (and is) still a very strong choice. Also, the meta condi mirage build used dueling + illusions and was one of the most popular mesmer builds you'd come across in ranked. Calling it "pure suicide" is pretty inaccurate considering how strong it was.

    Em...May be it was very popular on NA,which is still people say its amazing good when their presence on EU at p2-3 for me is close to none.
    I meant chrono with a scepter, because mirage with a scepter wasnt that popular.
    Inspiration/chaos was a safe bet and had no problems with cmirages . Otherwise illu/chaos vs condi comp without a frebrand = pure suicide.

    1. In this post, you claimed that you are "dead on the spot if you don't react instantly to Rapid Fire with getting a chance to LoS." So you were lying. Or, you're implying that Confusing Images kills you even faster than instantly because you agreed that you only need one dodge to avoid it as opposed to two. Of course, only needing a single dodge to avoid CI means that you have significantly more time to react to it compared to the two dodges you need to avoid RF.

    What is a lie? Being killed by quickness sic em OWB/LB4-LB2? I did it a lot and people melt close to instant. Thats a lie ? Nop.
    As we speak about beam being released non wind-up VS non wind-up RF. Dont remember CI being boosted by sic em with OWP though.

    1. Against a good player that knows how to bodyblock/use AI to LoS, the base piercing is very important.

    i would rather to not count on that to actually process,identify every skill flying around especially in spamfiesta after all these expansions, and think IS IT PIERCING OR NOT?
    Where is the video ?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

    You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

    Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

    Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. Y u copy? ._.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

    You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

    Lets call it a magic. Just as you have issues dealing with shatter mesmer and I dont :)

    Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

    I have fought people who are clearly lagging as hell and teleport like a ninjas and hit me through my evades. I blame the game

    Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. Y u copy? ._.

    You are still wasting our time, stop jebaiting me for responses

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

    You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

    Lets call it a magic. Just as you have issues dealing with shatter mesmer and I dont :)

    Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

    I have fought people who are clearly lagging as hell and teleport like a ninjas and hit me through my evades. I blame the game

    Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. Y u copy? ._.

    You are still wasting our time, stop jebaiting me for responses

    I don't have issues dealing with shatter mesmer lol

    I think it's incredibly easy to deal with SE LB SLB. You keep saying it's extremely difficult to avoid a 2 second channeled skill.
    But, you're wrong. It's objectively harder to react to a mantra mesmer's burst from stealth than it is to react to a PBS into a Rapid Fire.

    The mantra burst is 100% frontloaded and if you don't dodge as soon you see the damage indicator from Mirror Blade you're probably dead.

    The time it takes for Point Blank Shot to reach you is about the same time as it takes for the entire shatter combo to hit. If you can dodge the mesmer stealth burst reliably, you should have a much easier time dealing with SE LB SLB. If you're having trouble, practice the matchup more.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

    Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

    Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

    The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

    Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.
    So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

    You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

    Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used Malicious Sorcery. This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

    After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

    As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with Lead the Wind which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

    I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

    Confusing images has a full 1 second wind up not included in the main 2.5 second channel to make it even more fair.

    So with out quickess it actually takes. CI 3.25s to cast whereas Rapid fire is just 2.25 seconds once the skill registers.

    On a condition damage amulet like sages you would need to spam 5 skills in 4 seconds to suffer 2k damage from confusion. On a power amulet that would be 500 if the victim spammed that much.

    I personally think giving core Rapid Fire the 50% base damage nerf Confusing Images treatment with no consolation is just the fix Sic Em needs.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 20, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    I'd love it if they were removed from the game completely because of how little skill they take to play coupled with how INEFFECTIVE they are against anyone with their monitor turned on.

    I have to say, this is something that's all-too-often overlooked. Trevor mentioned it too - this kind of thing doesn't make it far past plat 1, the counterplay from classes supposedly vulnerable to this is too strong. The first problem is that it only really works if you know your enemy's defenses are down - stunbreaks, barriers, invulns, blinds, and ports have to basically all be out in order for this to work. Even other glass builds, with just one stunbreak and dodge available, can basically negate the entire burst. So many things have to go wrong for the defender all at once for this to stand a chance. I took this to plat 1 (1560s), then got ravaged so hard that I gave up on ranked entirely (because I'm too lazy to learn a new build at this point, having already changed classes and builds over the years). Point is, the cheese is annoying when it lands, but it's such a weak build overall.

    There is a sic em soulbeast in the top10 every season. There are always more in the top 25 and 100. The idea that its a meme build that doesn't do well is a lie, cover by rangers to deflect calls for nerfs. Or they just are the type to peak at plat 1 and can't imagine anyone better than themselves.

    The sic em soul beast in the top 10 doesn't run the glass build. He runs rune of the fighter and demolisher. He cannot 1 shot you. Unless you are glass. He can get your hp to 25% then usually use smoke assault to finish the job. There is plenty of time to dodge and stun break before and during his burst or invur then heal. What ever your class is. Non of the top rangers go full glass.

  • BadMed.3846BadMed.3846 Member ✭✭✭

    As a ranger main I totally agree with the OP.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

    You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

    Lets call it a magic. Just as you have issues dealing with shatter mesmer and I dont :)

    Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

    I have fought people who are clearly lagging as hell and teleport like a ninjas and hit me through my evades. I blame the game

    Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. Y u copy? ._.

    You are still wasting our time, stop jebaiting me for responses

    I don't have issues dealing with shatter mesmer lol

    I think it's incredibly easy to deal with SE LB SLB. You keep saying it's extremely difficult to avoid a 2 second channeled skill.
    But, you're wrong. It's objectively harder to react to a mantra mesmer's burst from stealth than it is to react to a PBS into a Rapid Fire.

    The mantra burst is 100% frontloaded and if you don't dodge as soon you see the damage indicator from Mirror Blade you're probably dead.

    The time it takes for Point Blank Shot to reach you is about the same time as it takes for the entire shatter combo to hit. If you can dodge the mesmer stealth burst reliably, you should have a much easier time dealing with SE LB SLB. If you're having trouble, practice the matchup more.

    I agree with this. The mesmer one shot happens from stealth. If you miss the puff all you can see or hear is the one shot sound, (I think mirrior blade?) If something masked that sound you are basically dead.

    With a ranger you know he's coming. You see he's coming. You hear sic em a d you see reveal on you. That's plenty of indication.

    I am ok with both existing. As all you need is map awareness. But just ridiculous this guy is ok with one but not the other.

  • TorQ.7041TorQ.7041 Member ✭✭✭

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    @praqtos.9035

    If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

    Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in this post.

    PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

    Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.
    Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.
    Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

    You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

    Lets call it a magic. Just as you have issues dealing with shatter mesmer and I dont :)

    Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

    I have fought people who are clearly lagging as hell and teleport like a ninjas and hit me through my evades. I blame the game

    Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. Y u copy? ._.

    You are still wasting our time, stop jebaiting me for responses

    I have 270-320 ping on average. I have zero problems with dodging or stunbreaking from point blank and rapid fire. Just an excuse for poor play.

  • Ashkew.6584Ashkew.6584 Member ✭✭

    i was thinking about the range/damage aspect of ranger, right now longbow damage increases on auto attacks when max range, rapid fires from save distance/no port spots, good kiting abilities/stealth etc , its all pretty nasty. not that hard to train down by good focus from port classes tho but still. I was thinking, how about making the damage of sick 'em and other modifiers a change in numbers depending on there range.
    So when u play safe, max range your damage will be lower, but the more risk u take by going in closer the more damage you deal. so sick'em for instance gives only 5/10% extra damage from 1500 range, but builds up the more u get closer.
    Just thinking out loud here, maybe there some other traits that can work the same way. hell u can even do same with healing from protective ward, more heal when u in close range, less heal when u kite to safe distance.
    dont know maybe its stupid or maybe it works

  • PaRaPhReNiA.8763PaRaPhReNiA.8763 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf soulbeast, buff core ranger! Then you can cry about remorseless, maul and tiger leap since its impossible to dodge these super fast,instant omega skills that one shot all the mesmers,holo,spellbreaker, scourges firebrands and revs out there

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭✭

    If los is not enough than... Just git gut man, git gut :p

    make prepardness baseline plz

  • Solori.6025Solori.6025 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    What matters is if it's too strong for what it does. If getting blown up by a visible target at close range, or by a target that needs to explicitly telegraph from afar is too much, then let's go for consistency.

    This ^
    If you thought damage was too high then. Then it's to high now and their is no reason to be against future nerfs.

    Tingle my stingleberry

  • verskore.4312verskore.4312 Member ✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @verskore.4312 said:
    it's called 'being aware of your surroundings', if i know there's a pew pew soulbeast in the enemy team ill make sure i know where he is and i also make sure i have access to LoS if need be.
    I also dont see it 'overperforming' in '90%' of the game, most games have 1-2 soulbeasts and I barely ever see 3-4 in 1 game so what you're saying is just false.

    You don't play ranked much, I can tell.

    I dont play ranked much in gold or lower, there you are right

  • Vancho.8750Vancho.8750 Member ✭✭✭

    The best way they can change unstoppable union is to make it like the Revenant unblockable mechanic that is on stack of hits so the off hand axe or longbow 2 just fizzle out but something like the melee maul on gs is still strong. It's all about that one big hit that is telegraphed.

  • praqtos.9035praqtos.9035 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Something Something Dodge.
    Something Something Its a meme build so it's ok.

    Something Something no one plays it so it's ok.
    Something something you're a mirage [ Insert generic mesmer hate and derail attempt]{ LOL}

    Wasnt at monthly NA 2 sic em soulbeasts? I didnt see if there were 2 but for sure at least 1 was sic em xD
    But anyway I think holo deserve way more and harder nerfs than soulbeast, lol

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

    @praqtos.9035 said:

    @Solori.6025 said:
    Something Something Dodge.
    Something Something Its a meme build so it's ok.

    Something Something no one plays it so it's ok.
    Something something you're a mirage [ Insert generic mesmer hate and derail attempt]{ LOL}

    Wasnt at monthly NA 2 sic em soulbeasts? I didnt see if there were 2 but for sure at least 1 was sic em xD
    But anyway I think holo deserve way more and harder nerfs than soulbeast, lol

    For some reason I don't encounter very many Holos. Way more SLB where I play. Both definitely need to be toned down though. Could start by addressing overtuned Holo healing and overtuned SLB damage.

    Though I agree both need nerfed the reason u see more slb especially in wvw is the ease at which it is to cheese people from 20 000 hp to 0 in seconds from 1500 range unblockable

  • Flandre.2870Flandre.2870 Member ✭✭✭

    Nerf sickem. It's a disgusting mongo playtsyle.

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭

    As someone who doesn't like or play Soulbeast, I personally don't find any issue in it. I know others complain but it's really not that hard to fight. LoS, boon corrupt, knowing how to position yourself well is all you really need to beat them.

    I just feel most of the complaints about X class at this point being too strong or overtuned, is just from people that can't accept they lost a fight either to someone who is just better than they are, have a build that counters what they run, or the person defeated just didn't have good positioning.

    I wouldn't call any class or build in PvP at this point overpowered, Aneta done a good job of tuning things down - what they need to do is just bring some traits/skills/weapons up to par to increase build diversity.

  • @Strider.7849 said:
    As someone who doesn't like or play Soulbeast, I personally don't find any issue in it. I know others complain but it's really not that hard to fight. LoS, boon corrupt, knowing how to position yourself well is all you really need to beat them.

    I respect your opinion, but I think part of why people sometimes have very different impressions of SLB is because it has a pretty good amount of build variety. Sure, your run of the mill LB/GS SLB played by an average player not cheesing the spec's most broken abilities isn't usually an issue.

    When SLB starts to feel very unfair is when, for example, it does what Deadeyes used to do, only better (unblockable snipe from longer range), with far less telegraph, all while having way more sustain.

    People cry bloody murder when a Chrono deletes them from stealth using almost all their cool downs, while being unable to deal real sustained damage between bursts, and being a sitting duck if they fail. But when a SLB abuses a few traits courtesy of pet merge to delete you on a rotation that's up more frequently, while dealing plenty of sustained damage in between, on a much more durable build, it's apparently okay.

    Other specs have been nerfed for doing much less than SLB. Why should SLB get a free pass? Where is SLB's trade-off compared with core ranger? Druid got hit. Why not SLB?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Crab Fear.1624 said:
    So soulbeast mains don't think the class is overtuned? Who thinks it is overtuned?

    Those who have not yet deciphered and put to use the secret knowledge hidden in this meme.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭

    i still think OWP is not overtunned and in fact it needs some extra splash damage around the target to make it worthwhile

  • @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    This is absolutely GROSS. :rage:

    Now before the usual "just dodge", "map awareness", "l2p", "gimmick build", "one trick predictable burst", and other "it's your fault" responses from Soulbeast mains defending their broken skills and traits come in, know that:

    • This was 1v1 at home node at match start against a hybrid axe/warhorn/greatsword Boonbeast build of some sort (not a glass build!) played by a Platinum 2 or so player who rushed far and got there almost as fast as I did (that mobility!).
    • My first dodge was spent evading their opening Smokescale Smoke Assault. My second dodge was spent evading Soulbeast Smoke Assault, immediately after which I was knocked down by Soulbeast Takedown from stealth. A 13,421 Worldly Impact and a 11,360 Maul later and the rest was history.
    • The entire encounter lasted less than 10 seconds. Time from Takedown to dead was under 2 seconds.
    • They had almost perma Might, Fury, Swiftness, Quickness, Regeneration, and 10 stacks of Stability. They were running Siamoth along with Smokescale, so had access to plasma.

    I proceeded to get farmed by this person five more times. Four in 1v1, once in what barely qualifies as a team fight. It wasn't always the same burst. Literally every basic hit from their various axe and greatsword skills were critting for around 2-5K. And that's excluding the constant harassment from their pets while they flung axes from safety in between bursts. We only have two dodges to deal with all this.

    Blink? I did. Apparently WI + Maul combo tracks a mesmer through a 1200 range Blink if it's started just before the Blink. The SLB literally appeared next to me at the end of my TP to finish with Maul. Dead. Really felt like I was fighting Jason (or whichever unshakable slasher villain--I don't watch those :sweat_smile:).

    Between their ample evades, stealth, boon up-time, and cleanse, I simply couldn't hurt them much. I'd get a few stacks of Bleed, Confusion, and Torment on them and they'd all get cleared in one go.

    I'm aware this was probably a bad match-up for my nerfed gutted condi-mirage (21K HP, a bit squishy but not glass), and that other builds may have fared better. But that isn't the point. The point is what I stated in my OP: Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability. This is especially so with the middle of the road hybrid builds. The only duelist that may be comparable is Holo, because it's overtuned too.

    A number of discussions have cropped up lamenting the awful state of power creep, damage being too high, "toxic design", "first to burst, wins", all of which is anti-fun. We have a population crisis in sPvP. Imagine beginners being faced with something like this. Is it any wonder so many are turned off from the start?

    I'm going to attempt clear some things up here because I feel like this post is full of misinformation. Also, you can't discredit all opposing arguments because L2P, using defensive cooldowns, map awareness to LoS, gimmick build, one-trick predictable burst, and it's your fault... ALL apply to this situation.

    Before I get into it, when I started reading your post and you mentioned "perma boons" + warhorn, it sounded like the boonbeast was running a build similar to this one with Nature Magic to take advantage of Fresh Reinforcement (as beastmastery isn't very good with Siamoth and warhorn).

    Thank you for the detailed analysis. I really do appreciate the time you took to break things down. This is the kind of constructive feedback we need.

    First off, I agree there are L2P issues here. That's why I took screens of the combat log, and recorded this match so I could try to analyze and understand it later. I also believe you that the SLB was a "gimmick build" because it isn't something I encounter often. This might be only the second or third time I've seen it, and never before to this extent. Because of that, I didn't know how best to deal with it. I assure you nothing I said was a deliberate lie. I spent some time watching and rewatching the recording alongside the combat log screens, looking up skills on the Wiki as needed. What I wrote is what I saw (or think I saw). It is of course possible I was mistaken about some things.

    I'll address your points as best I can, with the main things I'm referring to in bold:

    1. So first off, you said the boonbeast was running Smokescale + Siamoth. The only leap he has access to as a result is Swoop on GS3. If he uses it straight out of spawn, it'll take him around 20 seconds to get to the point with permanent swiftness. So no, the build doesn't have "that mobility!" as it doesn't use Snow Owl/Gazelle for an additional leap. Using the standard sword condi mirage means you have access to Mirage Thrust, Blink, and Jaunt. Overall, you have higher mobility than the boonbeast and would be able to cap the point about halfway before he can even get into range to attack you.

    I don't run sword, and I don't think many mesmers do, because it has been steadily nerfed into ineffectiveness over the years. About the only reason to use it is for Mirage Thrust. However, that requires (1) spending a dodge for Ambush, and (2) a target, so it isn't exactly useful for the opening rush to home point. Similarly, since the nerf to Jaunt reducing its ammo count to 2 and increasing its recharge to 30 seconds, I don't think it's wise to spend it to move a mere 450 distance units during the initial rush. Had I done these things, I would have been running a weak (some would say "trash") weapon, down a dodge, and down a Jaunt (or two) before the fight even started.

    As for my opponent, they may have been running one of the least mobile builds as far as Soulbeasts go, but it is pretty well known that "common" SLB builds pack plenty of mobility. The fact that this lower mobility SLB build still got to far as fast as it did speaks to how little it lacks in mobility.

    1. My second point is based off of dueling knowledge and understanding your matchups. Smoke Assaults from both the pet and player are some of our lowest sources of damage. On a light armored target with ZERO additional toughness/protection, the pet would hit for around 2-3k and the player would hit for around 4k if both of them had 25 stacks of might if each of the five individual strikes all connected. Against mesmers or rangers, it's even weaker because additional targets split the damage. If you're taking the full amount of damage, that means you're not summoning any clones (ie: not fighting) which is pretty silly. Also, there is no reason to blow BOTH of your dodges on Smoke Assaults. The easiest trick to counter a SA (weaker rev sword 3) is by entering stealth. It cancels the attack automatically and you don't need to use dodges. So this was a L2P issue. Using your defensives properly is just one (important) part of winning fights.

    Though it may be hard to believe, I had zero access to stealth. I know there is this mythos that Mesmers are a catchall of everything defensive and evasive, but much of that has changed in the course of more than a year's worth of nerfs (any doubters should try to list useful mesmer abilities that haven't been nerfed). While I have been a steadfast adherent to Torch despite it receiving multiple nerfs, up to as recently as two weeks ago (pretty sure I'm a minority there), I was running Pistol here. I don't think many Mesmers run Signet of Midnight nowadays either. I can't emphasize enough that the shotgun approach to nerfing Mesmer and its elites has resulted in just a couple or few "playable" builds for the entire profession. This means the vast majority, myself included, are locked into Blink, Illusionary Ambush, and Arcane Thievery (mainly for cleanse, which meta builds don't have much of). No room for SoM.

    As to what to dodge, that is actually one of my biggest gripes about Soulbeast. As I saw in the combat log throughout the match, essentially all of their attacks were critical, and basic attacks were hitting for 2-5K. Some have said one of the reasons pets are so low key OP is how good they are for baiting dodges, defensive cool downs, and dealing passive CC. That combined with the SLB's own hard hitting attacks between bursts makes for a lot to deal with on the receiving end. In this case, there was an instinctive dodge during Smoke Assaults knowing burst follows stealth. I guess I dodged too early, but I cannot stress enough that this encounter was one of the classic "dead before they know what hit them" experiences. The relatively small percentage of PvPers with years of experience, thousands of hours and matches under their belts sitting at the upper tiers of ranked may well know how to deal with busted mechanics like this. But I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the player base does not. And that does matter if we want people to play, while things like this continue to exist.

    1. My third point is going to address some pretty severe inconsistencies in your claims. The only way an a/wh gs boonbeast could even come close to hitting those numbers on a build with enough cleanse to survive a condi mirage would be if they were using this build. It would require Demolisher's Amulet, Sic Em, Beastmastery, and 25 stack of might. In the screenshot you linked, this is what the ranger did:
      • There are two ways a soulbeast can hit 13k on WI. Either he was running marksmanship for the Moment of Clarity proc following an interrupt (Takedown in this case) or the ranger casted maul once, missing, which buffed WI and let it hit for 13k.
      • Then, he mauled again 3 seconds later to buff Hilt Bash which is why it hit for 6k (as it normally hits for 3.8k with Sic Em + 25 might on a crit against a light armored target with no toughness/prot).
      • 3 seconds later, he mauled again as the might stacks were running out. This is why the second maul hit for 9k as opposed to 11k. The demo build DOES NOT use nature magic, thus has very little base boon duration even with leadership runes (27%). The ranger was NOT using Moa Stance either. How do I know this? The time it took to use both mauls was 6.5 seconds. This is the same amount of might duration that the ranger receives on the PvP version of "We Heal As One!" with Leadership Runes slotted. In other words, about half of the ranger's might stacks dropped off after the Hilt Bash.
      • In other words, the ranger was actually using a full gimmick marksmanship build that has extremely poor condi clear and you got hit by the most common, predictable, and easy to avoid combo of Smoke Assault -> Takedown -> Worldly Impact -> Maul -> Hilt Bash -> Maul.

    Again, I do appreciate the analysis. I definitely don't know enough about SLB to figure this out. But regardless of what combination of traits and skills results in this monstrosity of a "gimmick" build, the question remains, should it be a thing? As I said elsewhere, a Chrono 1-shot from stealth build, for example, is as unfun for most people as anything. Yet that build truly is a "one trick pony" that is virtually useless outside the burst, has to dump almost all cooldowns into the burst and becomes a sitting duck if it fails, and is from the start much squishier than the gimmick SLB build in question. Despite all of this, it's gotten nerfs. I ask again, why should the arguably stronger SLB gimmick build be treated any different?

    1. It would've been impossible for the ranger to stealth after using Smoke Assault, land the Takedown, and still do that much damage. This would've required the soulbeast to unmerge, drop Smoke Cloud, and use GS3 through it because WH5 would've been on cooldown already. This means that he loses the damage modifiers from merging and Sic Em would have no effect on his damage. So, you're either lying about the stealth or aren't able to accurately describe how the fight went down.

    I described it as best I could. I know for certain the Takedown followed/came out of stealth. I lost target on the SLB and they vanished. A split second later I was on the ground and destroyed. I'm sure the Takedown would have been the thing to dodge, but even that would require some experience dueling against this rotation. Otherwise it's a do-or-die game of clairvoyantly predict the burst from stealth. Not really a game I want to play, to be honest.

    1. You can't claim the boonbeast had "perma boons" if the fights only lasted for 10 seconds each time. Furthermore, axe autos only hit for 3k on a crit with 25 might + Sic Em while merged with a Ferocious pet with beastmastery (axe 3 would hit for 5k under the same conditions). If they were hitting harder than this, it means you were EATING every single maul + wh4 which would've put vulnerability on you.

    It's possible I had vuln. I'd have to rewatch. Though I said "almost perma [boons]", that may indeed be an exaggeration as to literal duration. What I meant is that they effectively had all the boons I listed up during the course of every engagement. Isn't that all that matters? You can probably pinpoint what ability allowed them to self-apply six boons at the start of every engagement and maintain them throughout the fights, short though they may have been. Does it matter if boons aren't permanent in duration, but are readily self-applied and last long enough for pretty much every fight?

    1. Again, this is a L2P issue. If the demo boonbeast with low boon duration pops the majority of his cooldowns (including his elite because you said he had 10 stacks of stability) + merges at the start of the fight, all you have to do is LoS for 10 seconds before all of those buffs end simultaneously and bam! The ranger has no longer has his heal skill (which is required to stack 25 might at the start of a fight), no utilities (blew Quickening Zephyr for quickness + Sic Em), and no elite.

    Good to know, but again this was at the opening home point skirmish, before I even knew what was coming at me. I know I probably overprioritized fighting on point (doesn't help that we often get yelled at by teammates for doing otherwise), which in hindsight, wasn't wise given my opponent. I'm sure there are ways to quickly tell what SLB build is being run, but there are a number of very viable SLB builds and they are very strong either from range, in melee, or both.

    And at the risk of sounding like a broken record, LOS isn't always available, especially on point.

    1. You have way more defensive options than just "your two dodges." If you stealthed (which condi Mirage has access to through torch 4 and Signet of Midnight) to avoid the player's Smoke Assault and used LoS to avoid the ranged axe attacks, you would've been able to dodge the Worldly Impact, dodge the first maul, Blurred Frenzy the Hilt Bash, blind/Diversion/distort/jaunted/blinked out of, etc. etc. the second maul. Or, you could've avoided that entire melee burst simply by leaping/porting away and saved yourself ALL of those defensive cooldowns except for the initial stealth to break Smoke Assault (or Blurred Frenzy which is the better choice as it's on a lower cooldown and you were revealed from Sic Em). If you ported behind LoS for 10 seconds, you would've been at a severe advantage in the fight as you would've had nearly every cooldown up when you re-engage.

    Again, no stealth on my build that day. And how many SLBs don't use Sic 'Em (reveal) anyway? I have since equipped Torch again solely for the stealth (honestly all it's good for). Unlike SLB, most professions have to commit to a weapon or give up a utility slot for access to stealth.

    Also wasn't running Sword, as stated above (no one does). So no Blurred Frenzy.

    As for Blink/port, see #8 below.

    1. WI + Maul does not track through a 1200 range Blink. This is a straight up lie. What happened here, was that you blinked during the boonbeast's Smoke Assault (which tracks through teleports). Again, this is a L2P issue as more experienced players know that teleporting during Smoke Assault is a bad because the soulbeast will follow you through it.

    I said, "Apparently WI + Maul combo tracks a mesmer through a 1200 range Blink if it's started just before the Blink." In no way was I trying to lie. I didn't know exactly what part of the combo resulted in the SLB tracking me through the Blink, but I'm glad you informed me. When I said "WI + Maul combo" I meant the full sequence of abilities that comprise that combo. SA is part of it and was apparently the culprit. Now I know.

    That being said, should SA track someone through a 1200 range port? I mean, above I'm being told not to waste dodge on SA which is one of SLB's "lowest sources of damage," but when I try to avoid it (and the subsequent burst) by porting, I wasn't supposed to do that either. To someone who mains SLB and knows this stuff inside out, it's easy to say "L2P", but can we take a step back and ask whether things should even be like this? How oppressive it is to most people, let alone newcomers?

    1. Finally, you can't claim that "Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability" when it seems like there were no attempts on your end to counter-pressure the ranger following the gimmicky, predictable, highly-telegraphed skill rotation.

    When I say "Soulbeast in general simply does way too much damage relative to its survivability" I mean exactly that. It can hit like a truck, no question there. Yet it is very survivable for being able to deal so much sustained damage as well as burst. Unlike, say, Deadeye and Chronoburst--both of which got nerfed. I find that people defending SLB seldom address this basic point.

    And of course I tried to counter-pressure. It just didn't matter. Other builds may have been able to do more, but that doesn't make SLB any less survivable. I truly don't think most people realize how much Anet gutted condi-mirage's killing power. Condi DOT is chip damage, which you can even see in the combat log. There are huge discussions on this forum covering the power-crept state of condi-mitigation such that ever since condi-mirage was deleted, only one thing in the game can pump out enough condi to matter, and that's Scourge. There is a reason that's the only viable condi-build: It's the only one that can reliably outlast cleanse.

    In conclusion, there were SO many different ways you could've played better in this matchup. Losing ~6 times!~ against the same Sic Em gimmick rotation means you were just eating EVERY single big attack such as Worldly Impacts and Mauls (which are extremely telegraphed) and not utilizing terrain or ANY of your various defensive cooldowns to avoid skills.

    Not so many ways, I think, now that you know what I was working with. No stealth, no sword, gutted condi-mirage. My final duel with this SLB was maybe 20-30 seconds (just a guess as I don't have access to the recording right now). I suppose that's within the realm of normal for duels in the current meta.

    Yes, there is plenty of L2P here, but as ever, hindsight is 20/20. The real question, and the point of my posts on this subject is, should stuff like this even exist? Is this the game we want?

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    @Twilight Tempest.7584

    I read everything, but I'm not going to address every point individually for the sake of brevity.

    As I've mentioned in the past, I dislike these gimmick builds. Not only do they require a very small amount of skill to play, but they aren't fun to use and/or fight against. In other words, if Sic Em was removed entirely, I wouldn't bat an eye.

    In response to your build's lack of the defensives, I'd recommend running this build. Even though it's been nerfed, the damage potential on condi mirage is still insane and you have plenty of ways to survive different builds/matchups. :)

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 4, 2019

    Reality Check; For nearly 4 years; Rangers were the underdog in the game and Thief and Mesmer continue to be Toxic-Top Dogs in the game. Than something happened; Rangers finally found a dev who stood by their side till this day.

    You are hearing it correctly- Rangers have a dev who is backing them up from being an underdog profession to a Top Dog profession.

    'Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely '

    There is nothing wrong of being powerful. What is wrong when the power becomes Toxic. That is the problem with the balance- too much power= Toxicity

    In conclusion; Rangers amongst others have joined Thief and Mesmer Toxicity.

    Toxicity has become rooted in the game balance design because of Thief and Mesmer.

    To solve the Toxic Power Crisis- Thief and Mesmer must be completely removed so healthy competitive balance can be addressed and exercised.

    Until then-No amount of nerfs will fix the Toxic Power Hunger Crave until Thief and Mesmer are rooted out than later be fully redesigned with a fresh start of healthy competitive balance.

    (The other alternative to nerfing the Toxic Power Hunger Crave is to nerf all professions to the ground alongside with Thief and Mesmer being hit the most with severe nerfs as Punishments for 7 years of Toxicity ) than rework Thief and Mesmer from the ground up as examples to healthy competition

    --Thief and Mesmer are the Meta; and must be Leading role models to a healthy fun competitive learning gaming experience and environment--

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